Belonging Without the Buzz: Queer Sobriety & Connection

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to leave a review, rate, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, please send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. Now on to today's show.

Today, we're exploring how we gather, connect, and celebrate as queer people, and what it looks like to do that in ways that feel aligned, authentic, and alive. For many of us, especially in queer spaces, drinking and partying have long been part of how we find each other, but they're not the only way. We're joined by Dave Becker, a gymnastics coach and the founder of Sober Gay Sunday, a social group and podcast that creates space for queer folks in recovery. Dave shares his personal journey and how being in and building up community without substance opened up new ways of being seen, having fun, and feeling free. Whether you're sober, curious, or just reflecting on how you show up in community, this one's for you.

Tim, Dave, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready.

Absolutely.

Awesome. Dave, it's so good to have you on the podcast today. How are you too?

Very good. Very good. I'm really happy to be here. That was a great intro. You have a great podcast voice too.

So Thank you. Thank

you. I appreciate that. So in listening to your own podcast, I heard you talk about how finding sober community changed your life. So I'm wondering if you can take us back to what life was like before that shift. What were some of the early experiences that shaped both your identity as a gay man and your path towards sobriety?

That's that's we're going back away. So I'm 40 years old now, and I started, you know, in the gay community back early two thousands when I had just turned 18. So one of the things that I think a lot of us have to lean on when we first come into the community is, like, the bar scene and the party scene, because that's where the majority of our community meet. And for me, it was one of those things where I was coming from a small town in Massachusetts. I was anxious, a very anxious person.

And when I first started engaging in in the gay nightlife in Boston, alcohol made me feel real special, real good, real involved, real you know, I'm I'm sure most of us have a similar situation and similar experience where you become kind of at that time, what you think is, like, the better version of yourself. And again, to be surrounded by queer people for the first time when you're young is just these so much it's so exciting. And then to add alcohol on top of that is just a whirlwind for a young person. I have a very supportive family, very supportive community back home where I where I grew up. I was on the girls gymnastics team in high school, so, like, people were not surprised.

And and so even for me as someone who had a really accepting background accepting home, I still really relied heavily on alcohol to get myself through, like, the social existence of a gay of being a gay person. So and from the very beginning, was go. Go. Go. Go.

Go. I mean, out Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday as soon as I was able to, you know, as soon as I was able to go out when I was 21. And that just kind of snowballed into, you know, come becoming a circuit boy and getting to the involved in drugs with that. And then from there, just the addiction took me over. And once the addiction had kind of had me, I had I led a very stark double life of, like, social gay boy and then the dark side of crystal meth.

So and then from there, it just got so it got bad. I mean, that that drug especially is incredibly insidious. And it it got to the point where it was like, you know, I had to choose sobriety or I was just gonna continue to use until I wasted away. So

I'm gonna jump in here because I I heard you say something, and you were speaking, I think, specifically about drinking in the moment. Yep. You talked about it initially like, oh, where you're at this bar, and it feels good. And you kind of feel this, like, what's felt like a heightened experience. Later, you mentioned then using it to kind of manage your navigation.

And I wonder if you could make that distinction, like talk a little bit about that, because I think one can turn into the other. We're like, oh, well, maybe I feel a little buzzed. Maybe that's fun. Mhmm. And then it transitions into, well, now I need this social lubricant to even exist in this space.

Can you speak to that a little bit?

Definitely. I think they not even necessarily just, like, lead into the other, but go very much hand in hand. Like, when you're experiencing the gay world for the first time and you you do some a lot of us need that social lubrication just to get in the door and then to then get the feeling of, you know, feeling great and feeling social and feeling, you know, accepted and feeling outgoing, that then kind of loops back into needing the alcohol or the drugs to continue that cycle. So I I think it's it's like a it's like a horrible little, like, loop. Mhmm.

And one comes it's like chicken or the egg situation. You know? And it it's it's even, you know, friends I've had since I was 18 years old going out for the first time still, you know, will be like, oh, I I need I don't understand how you go out without having a cocktail or having a, you know, whatever else. It's it's it's not necessarily something you even grow out of until it gets becomes a problem, I think.

Yeah. I think that there's the idea of it feeling good, but I imagine that can be kind of complicated because I have to imagine at times, it feels good to not be terrified to be here.

Could be part of the feeling good, right? So very similar to my first experience going to a gay bar, I was terrified. I was so terrified to be there because it was an admission. It was an admission to myself that this is the space that I want to be in. And so, I relied on alcohol to help to calm some of those jitters.

And then I opened up and began to have a good time. So it does become a chicken or an egg, right? Because I started to calm down, and then the feeling that I was chasing then was this euphoric, I belong, this is fun feeling. And I associated it with alcohol. And then later on other drugs as well.

And then it really does become that chasing of, for me anyway, the chasing of that, that perpetual high of like, oh, the first couple times that I went out, I was feeling in this head space. I was feeling like I belonged, and everything was fun, and the the consistent there was my reliance on on alcohol to get me there.

Absolutely. 100. And it's it's in any kind of situation with drugs and alcohol that you're almost always chasing that first time. Like, even when you move into the harder stuff, like, it's just like that first time for most of us is is really what gets chased. So that's absolutely makes sense.

You talked a little bit about queer nightlife. So what was your relationship like to the queer nightlife in social spaces before sobriety? You talked about going out frequently, like, what what did that create within your social structure and

So when I first started going out, when I was 18 years old in Boston, you were still could go to some of the 18 plus clubs, which does

Like a machine.

Yep. And access on Lansdowne Street. And I was lucky enough to have a boyfriend when I was that age that was very helpful in kind of helping me traverse the gay world for the very first time. He was such a good teacher. Everything from, you know, where to go out to just like queer culture and and some of the more physical sexual stuff, obviously.

It was just this I had this really great teacher for the first two years of being out because I just met a really wonderful person who was able to kind of guide me through. But initially, was, you know, just going out once a week with, you know, my boyfriend and my friends, and then I made an enormous amount of of friends going out. And especially being that it was the early two thousands, it was right at the beginning of when manhunt and online dating was kind of starting to show itself. So we had to go out to meet people. We had to go out to make friends.

I mean, we had Myspace ish at the very beginning of that. Like, we're just slowly getting creeping into the to what it is now, which is just completely inundating our our gay culture is crazy. But and then once Hipman and I broke up, I just continued having these enormous friend groups and all meeting all these people, and and and it just kinda kept going for most of my adult life, was having a really strong, big group of friends that were all involved with gay nightlife in Boston. And for a long time, it was really great. It was really wonderful.

And and it it slowly after a while when you you kind of move through to the the groups that are really into drugs and drinking and going out and that's kind of their whole existence, I I I unfortunately kind of slid into that type of group in towards the end of my twenties and my early thirties. And that's when, like, the addiction really kind of, like, really, really stuck and really, really hit was when you get involved with people who are just party boys. I mean, they look great, but that's a lot.

But they're but they're they're seeking something. We're all seeking something. And I'm just curious, do you have a sense of what it is we're seeking and what it is we're missing that then we kind of bring substance into to help fill?

Well, I think every single gay person has a proverbial chip on their shoulder from growing up different. And it depends on each person how big that chip is and how much you need to fill it and how much you try to fill it. And so every single person on this planet it doesn't matter. It's everyone seeks connection. And so even if you were growing up as, like, you know, on the football team, but you were gay or you were a little, you know, part of my French would faggot, like, you have a sense in the back of your mind that every move you make as a young person is different than your straight counterparts.

And that's trauma. That's traumatizing for a child. That's traumatizing for a young adult. As you said earlier, I coach gymnastics, and I work with ages two to 18. And it's such a being a child sucks.

Like, being a teenager sucks worse. And that's when you're trying to figure yourself out and you have this secret. Like, holding a secret makes you sick inside. And even for me, who had again, I've has an amazingly supportive family. My dad grew up in New York City and worked in theater.

Like, he knew. He knew. It's a picture of me at five years old in my gymnastics outfit for where we took gymnastics pictures, and my little finger is just dropped ever so slightly. And my dad sent the my my gymnastics pictures to my aunt who lives in California, and she looked at this picture and she says, I really have to come out as a lesbian to the family so that this little one doesn't have as much trouble as he might. She put the little gay ass picture down.

She'd call my dad. And so the support was there, but I still felt so alone, like, at school, alone at gymnastics, alone at any any activity because I was just different. And so every single person is trying to fix that inner child. And that's one of the big things that people turn to drugs and alcohol for.

I really feel like my experience in the men's workspace is that we are all looking for more connection, more belonging, more authentic interaction. And then I think based on what you just said, that mirrors my own personal experience, queer people have a, maybe a higher mountain decline with regards because we have felt so different and so othered. And so one of the magic components of the circle that we've created and this men's work and embodiment work is the opportunity for a new kind of connection, a new kind of intimacy. Mhmm. And I and I it does hurt my heart sometimes when I think that we we exist in a community that doesn't necessarily know other ways of doing it.

This is the way that we you know, I remember when I was, you know, a freshman in at NYU, the way you met people were to go to queer spaces, and most of those queer spaces were bars.

Mhmm.

I do remember the big cup, which doesn't exist anymore, but it was a coffee shop. But but it was still a place where you like, you needed to have some money, you needed to have you you know, there were certain requirements. And so I feel like our community is begging for other resources, ways of communicating and and connecting that aren't necessarily this one thing.

On that topic, I have a question for you, Dave, about as somebody that was so ingrained into the nightlife and the circuit scene, did you shift once you got sober? What were those how did those relationships continue or end? How did your relationship with going out shift or change?

So I was lucky in the sense that my sober date is July 2020.

It's Timmy's birthday.

Hey. Hey. Well, there you go. So I couldn't go out when I got sober. Pandemic.

Yeah. Was in the middle of pandemic. And and clubs were all closed. You know, the restaurants had all their whatever rules. So for me, it forced me to stay in and do the work on myself with my sober coach and my therapist and and to step away from the nightlife scene and from all that stuff because then no one could do anything.

And I was very fortunate that it was kind of a a really hard limit for that the world had put on me. So one of the things I did to get myself sober and really stay sober was to jump on not to sound like a millennial, but I jumped on social media and really made myself incredibly like, I made it incredibly public. Like, I was like it was sober this, sober that. I was checking in. I was posting on every sober date, you know, two months, three months, four months, five months, six months.

So then by the time that the world opened up, which was Memorial Day of twenty twenty one, the the clubs opened up and I was like, alright. Like, here we go. Let's do this. Let's go out with my roommates, go out with my friends. And I really didn't know what to expect.

And I went out, and every single person that I saw congratulated me on my sobriety. I mean, some of them had pupils the size of dinner plates at the time. It was kind nonetheless. And I wasn't sure what people were gonna do, and I wasn't sure what, like, all my circuit buddies were gonna say, what they were gonna and it was just this incredible amount, overwhelming amount of support. Because you can you can post and you can tag and you can whatever as much as you want online, but for me, that's like that it's not as tangible no matter how many likes you get, it's not as tangible as face to face interaction with people really being incredibly kind.

And it was again, like, I've been going out in the city since I was 18 years old, so I know a lot of people, and it was just every single person. Congratulations. You're doing great.

It's really beautiful, because I sometimes get very cynical. So refreshing to hear that community can embrace who it is that we are trying to be, who it is we're trying to manifest in this world. So by what I heard you say is by claiming your identity so publicly and vocally, saying, I am sober, it then got reflected back to you, community, to say, You are sober, and congratulations. And it's moments like that that really help soothe my cynical side, that our queer community really is embracing and accepting when you call out your identity. And so I just I just wanted to take a moment.

Yeah. And one of the things that really surprises me, especially when I started my group, Sober Gay Sunday, is the community that aren't sober would give me sober friends' names. Like, I'd be out dancing with my friends, and my friends were like, oh my goodness. You have to meet this person. They're sober.

You're sober. Let's go. And I got a ton of people just from that. And, again, to kinda go out into, like, a non sober space and to have people be like, oh, you're the Sobercase Sunday guy. Like, I know this person.

You should talk to them. This is this. This is this. So it's really been a really, really incredible to to have such an amazing response to something like that.

I mean, this is all very uplifting. And I have to imagine that there are some people who don't have the luxury of that exact experience. And I wonder if you could speak a little bit to the person who is making this choice in their life and maybe are met with confusion, abandonment, misunderstanding, any number of things, and how they might like, what advice might you give them to stay strong in their journey?

I mean, I I think finding any connection with anybody that is that is going through something similar to yourself is gonna be really helpful. I fell a lot into listening to podcasts once I got sober because, again, world was closed down, so, like, hearing sober voices and sober queer voices was very, very helpful. There was this podcast called The Sober Gay that was that was on at that time, and then there was a bunch of other ones that I just sat and listened to when I was, you know, walking to work or going to, you know, the gym or whatever. Was something that having this having someone talk to you in your ear that has been through what you've been through or is going through what you're going through can be very helpful if you don't have, like, the luxury of having a connection to a community or connection to other sober queer people. I listened to a couple of girls called The Seltzer Squad for a while, and and it's it's it just helps to hear that there's people going through it everywhere.

We tend to sometimes forget about the fact that we're that we're not alone when it comes to like, one of the best pieces of advice that I ever got from my sober coach about a month into my sobriety was, no matter how bad you think it's gone or how bad you think it is, someone has done something 10 times worse than you. And then on the last stop of their book tour about it, like, you're gonna be okay. So sometimes we just think our situation and our lives are so bad that it helps sometimes to hear every side of the of the story from everybody else.

A little perspective can go a long way to to help ground you in the reality of like, oh, this is this is my situation. Doesn't make it any less, you know, big, but it maybe makes it a little bit more manageable.

I think what I'm hearing that I think is so important is this idea of meeting people or connecting with people who can relate to you and have a similar, like, shared experience. And I'm gonna share a story of my own. It has nothing to do with sobriety, but with my brain surgery. And after my brain surgery, it was I was having a really, really tough time. And I remember I worked was an acupuncturist, I worked right next to Boxers, the bar in Chelsea.

I was just really I was just really sad and feeling very alone. And so I'm like, well, I'm gonna go in here, and I'm gonna have a beer, I'm gonna, like, watch different TV and just I don't know what I was looking for. Anyway, that's not the point. I sit down. I see across the room of this person with whom I had performed.

And initially, I was like, oh god, like, now I have to, like, make small talk. It's, like, not what I want. But I do like this person. I actually, like, deeply love this person. And so they come over, they start chatting with me, And I real they start sharing.

They're like, how are you? And I'm like, I'm not great. Like, I'm really going through it right now. I had a brain surgery. La la la.

They're like, oh, well, I had an open heart surgery. I've felt similar things. And then we had this conversation. I remember, because I was still using Facebook at the time, I walked out and my status update was like, was saved by an angel tonight. Because I just needed someone who understood the severity of, like, we didn't have the same procedure, but the severity of what I was going through.

And and it came to me. And it was so healing. So I think one of the takeaways is that shared experience is really powerful. Really, really powerful. Because it can feel very isolating otherwise.

I felt very alone till suddenly this person was like, I've had

a similar thing. Like, when we can see ourselves in others and when people can validate our experiences and existence, it really help make it much more manageable. And this even goes back to my first time in a gay bar. It was that. It was like, oh, I'm less alone.

And it was that elation, that relief of like, oh, I do, there are other people like me.

Yeah. It's very it's it it makes such a difference. It's insane. It's like because again, we get very much in our own heads like no one else can possibly understand. And very negative self talk, it's kinda takes over.

And then you the end of a bar of someone that's going through something very similar and there it is.

Yeah. So you've mentioned your sober coach twice now. So I'm just curious, what is a sober coach? How did you find them? Did you learn besides this amazing perspective shift that they gave you?

So I met my sober coach actually. So sober coach is someone who is coaches you through sobriety, not unlike a, like, a life coach or, like, it's not necessarily someone that is a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist, something like that. It's someone who is just there to help other people who are going through the sober journey.

Can we pause for a second? Yeah. There isn't a is there's an AA equivalent. Right? With what is the

Sponsor?

Sponsor. I know. So, yeah, if we could talk a little bit about, like, if they're the same or if not, how they're different.

Yeah. So, yeah, like, so a sober coach is someone who kind of coaches you through your sobriety and your sober experience, you know, unlike a sponsor in AA, someone who's just gonna hold your hand and lead you through and get you know, if you're doing AA or NA, you do the steps. And if you're not, you just talk it out and get it. So my my sober coach was somebody that I used to go and hook up with after I would party all night. And he was this older guy and obviously, we met on the apps, you know, whatever.

So and there was a moment few years before I got sober where I was, you know, you were finished or whatever. And he said he just looked at me and he said, whenever you figure this out and you need someone, call me. And I was like, you don't know me. Whatever. Like, see you.

You don't know me. So the the

I've I'm pretty sure I've said those exact phrases in a exact tone before.

Like, so I mean, I every time I am do impressions of myself as a younger person, I'm such a bitch. Yeah. I'm like, what? So the morning that I had kind of hit my rock bottom and it was time, he was the first person I thought of and did exactly as he said. I said I called him right up, and he picked up the phone.

He said, you figured it out, didn't you? And I was like, yes. Like, let it all come out. And so, you know, he he he said, alright. Let's meet up this week, and let's talk about what, you know, what's what the next steps are for you and what happened and and all that.

So I worked with him for about a month until I could get in with therapist. And then I worked kind of primarily with the therapist from then on out. But he was just instrumental in I needed somebody that I knew and trusted and was there and and wasn't a a stranger that was going that I have to, like, start fresh with. You know what I mean? It was just he knew because I was high on drugs, texting him at six in the morning to, you know, get fucked.

And and so he was like and he himself had gone through crystal meth addiction. And he so he knew what was going on and what what the world was like. So that's my experience with a sober coach. And it was, again, it was instrumental because we just kinda started right in with the hard work. Being mentors

who have had walked the path before and who can help guide and monitor without pushing, it sounds like this person never pushed on you to get sober. They were not preachy about it. They just said, hey. I see you.

Mhmm.

And I am here when you're ready. So I'm just gonna acknowledge that I see that there's something happening, judging you, pushing you, saying I'm here if there's ever a time.

Mhmm. It was yeah. It was exactly that. Didn't make me feel like shit. Just knew.

And that is that is so powerful in all situations in life to have somebody that can just, like, be there for you without judgment. It's such a gift. And so I want to talk about the gift that you've given the world with your community and podcast of Sober Gay Sundays. So curious, what inspired you to start that, and what kind of community are you building through that space?

So because I I had felt really inspired by listening to podcasts when I was getting sober for the first time, I wanted to kind of pay it forward, and I wanted to bring that that light into other people's life by just getting people to tell their stories and getting people out there. And it's it's not it's it's not it was very humbling for me because I had listened to, you know, podcasts coming out of coming into my sobriety. But to, like, sit there sit there face to face with someone who is, like, telling you their whole life story and their soul sober journey, some of the things that I heard from my guests was just shocking. And, I mean, I'd have to, like after the after the I closed the laptop and be like like, woah. And do it was encouraging to me to keep going and to be sober and be strong for these, because because it's every person I had, I felt like I took under my wing.

And I every person I I talked to felt like they became part of my little family. And so it really made me feel like I was giving back. And at the time when I started it, I I couldn't find a lot of queer centric, sober podcasts. It's a lot more now, which is great, and I love that. But it's one of the first things I said at one of my first sober gay Sunday meetup events was the queer sober experience is so unique.

And even you could do and and and drink as much as the the straight person next to you, but the queer experience is just a little bit different. And that was one of the big things that I wanted to give a voice to, was the queer experience.

Can we unpack that a little bit? What, in your opinion, makes the queer sober experience so unique?

I feel like we have such a similar kinda going back to the proverbial chip on the shoulder Mhmm. Growing up. That is such a seed toward towards addiction in itself. And so every single queer person that is going through addiction has that issue from the very beginning. And a lot of times, that is what causes addiction to take hold.

Of course, there's a million other different things that are, you know, part of the slippery slide of addiction, but we can all understand that we have that chip from being kids, and we are still under incredible pressures from the outside world about just being queer and being of this community. And, you know, you're you're I think that straight allies are incredibly important. I'm not downplaying that at all, and I'm not downplaying anyone's experience. It's just that your straight sober friends are still living in the straight world and have different pressures, but we have an umbrella of pressure over us that every single queer person can relate to. And so that weaves into the fabric of our addictive past, present, and future in a way that a straight counterpart just doesn't understand and can't understand.

It's like I can't understand being a black queer sober person. I cannot understand because they you know, people who are of ethnic minorities have even more piled on top of them than me who's a cisgender white male. So it's the same kind of thing for straight to queer relationships when it comes to sobriety, in my opinion.

I I found similar where going out again has sometimes been liberating and easy, and other times has been incredibly challenging because of this chip on my shoulder of like, do I fit in? Is there something wrong with me? Why am I different? If I go out to T dance, everyone has a a rum punch in their hand, and I'm sitting there, like, trembling from anxiety because I don't know how to, like, handle myself, I feel I feel really alone. And I don't know how to myself, so I run.

Which is fine. Like, I mean, honestly, that is a hundred percent one of those things where that is a perfectly accepting acceptable coping mechanism. Pulling yourself out of a situation where you don't feel safe, secure, and wonderful. I I have very often one of the things I do before I go out is I tell myself, if it gets crazy in there, I'm just leaving.

Therapist likes to remind me. He's like, you can set yourself a timer. Yeah. One hour. Mhmm.

You can do it for one hour and then check-in with yourself. And if I'm if I don't have the stamina for an hour, set the timer for thirty minutes. I've been plenty of times. And this is even at sober parties, mind you, where I will set a timer. I'm like, how long can I do this?

Mhmm.

Well,

sometimes the cap is thirty minutes.

Seriously. That's and that's like I mean, I agree. Trust me. I plan sober events, and it's just like sometimes I'm like, I really wish I wasn't in charge of this because I would really like to be there. Yeah.

But what what I what I used to do, like, especially when it was like I was first going back out to the clubs is and this this can be used for anybody, but I would I would I would order 25 Dunkin' Donuts munchkins, and I would eat half before I left, and I would leave half. So when I was out and I really wasn't feeling it, I could just be like, oh my god. My munchkins are waiting for me and I'm out. And I go home and I would eat them to the point where, like, all my circuit friends that I would, you know, was able to hang out with again would be like, are you going home with your munchkins, baby? And they're like, yep.

Munchkins are waiting.

Yeah.

See you. But I always tell people who are going out for the first time, like, if if if you really feel in your heart that it's not feeling like a safe place, it's not feeling good, it's not feeling and the reason is doesn't matter. Leaving is so much safer than trying to push through.

And I just wanna chime in here that it has nothing to do with other people. Other like, it is my nervous system that feels unsafe. It is not anything anyone is doing. It's not the rum punches. Right?

Right. Not it's not that. It's my nervous system.

Right.

And, like, it's honoring that.

Mhmm.

Right? Like, my nervous system does not feel safe. That's it.

Right. Exactly.

How can I honor that and respect where I am?

And some people just can't go back out. And that's fine. Because I've had many people who tell me even, like, you know, I had twenty five years of sobriety and they're like, I just can't go out. I just don't feel like it's a good place for me. And that's that's fine.

Yeah. It's completely fine.

My my first year, I really pushed myself to go out because I wanted to, like, challenge myself to do it. I actually worked at a bar as well during that time. So bar back, and I was like, I'm gonna put myself into the pit of it. I'm just gonna go all in. And it was a good challenge, it helped keep me focused and gave me like a sense of purpose of like, Oh, I'm gonna do this.

I'm gonna get through this by like, exposure therapy. And then year two hit, and all that crumbled around me. I developed an incredible amount of social anxiety going out. And it really I've worked through this with my therapist that I think what the first couple times that I was going out, even drinking, I didn't feel safe in those environments. And that was why I reached for drugs and alcohol.

There was something in my nervous system that said, The bar scene is not for me, is not for my nervous system. I get overstimulated very quickly, don't deal well, not being able to know people on an intimate level. My voice is a beautiful podcasting voice. Tim likes to say that I have to speak up a lot because I have bedroom voice, which means that it does With love. Yes.

It does not travel in loud environments.

No. A low register I'm a trained singer too, so a low register does not cut through high pitched noise.

And so a lot of times in those environments, I'm trying to make my voice be heard, and I can't. It starts to send me in, in, in, and then I would just throw back 15 drinks and however much cocaine I could stick up my nose to try to even muscle through. And then when all that was removed and I went out, I was like, Oh, this feeling is still there. Oh, this may just not be my environment.

My boyfriend's the same way. My boyfriend was a bartender at The Crown two summers ago, and then he worked at Presque. But going out together, like, he is like, we're, like, he's the same way. He's like, I can last ten minutes maybe. I don't wanna scream at people.

I don't wanna yell. He has a deep voice too, so I'm always like I'm like, I I can't even fucking hear you.

Yeah. Know.

I'm like, I'm sober as anybody. Like, we went to purgatory, he was like, fifteen minutes. Yeah. That's all we get. I was like, okay.

Okay. Okay. Okay. But it's I it's one of those places, you know, those things again. It's like, for me, it's like when the room starts when, like, the witching hour is at its peak and everyone is just so in their drugs and in their drink and in their, like, it's not cute anymore, the first whiff of that, I'm out of here.

Because then it just gets that is, like, just before it gets, like, messy and people start to spill drinks on you or stumble into you or, like, for me, it's like when that stuff starts to happen and I have no control of the room in the sense of, like, people's just people just banging into me and it's just like my space feels small, that's for me. It's like, see you later. Like, we we're not even gonna try to push through this because I don't wanna be here anymore.

Yeah. It's honoring it's honoring your boundaries and what you're comfortable and not comfortable with. You know, it's not, again, I'm gonna say this isn't about anyone. Right? It's it's just about

Right.

For me. It's just it's just about me, what I'm comfortable with.

Mhmm. And my munchkins are waiting for me. So

I I may start doing that. I mean, I'm I'm usually, like, a I'm more secretive about it. Like, I don't tell people, but, like, usually, I have, like, a candy bar in the freezer, and that that's my, like, my little treat for myself.

It doesn't cost me 25 munchkins. That's a lot too. Know.

Mine's a king-size Carmelo bar. So

So one of the one of the challenges that I've noticed just in our world and with men is that we're not really very deeply connected to our own felt sense and our own sensational experience of ourselves and our life. Mhmm. And so I believe what typically happens then is that we kind of miss the signals or ignore them until we get this feeling that is so big that we can't ignore it. Mhmm. And that also then feels like a moment when substance might come in.

Well, now suddenly, all the warning signs, all the little, like, dates have been passed, and I now I'm just in this really big moment. And so now I'm gonna drink or now I'm gonna use drugs or or whatever the thing is. But my question to you is, because you know so much of the embodiment work is meant to help us create a conversation with our own internal body wisdom. Understand it, learn how to work with it before we're completely overwhelmed by it. So what would you say to people who are becoming sober or working in their sobriety about their relationship with their body and how it can be a tool and how to not how to not be overwhelmed by it at times, when it can at times be overwhelming?

I think definitely it comes down to, like, your just true grit honesty with yourself and really trying to make sure that you, like, you learn. That's one of the things that my sober coach really helped me learn was, like, you gotta check-in with your own self. Sobriety is one of those things where it needs to be selfish. It needs to be because a lot of times when you're sober, not only are you, like, just more aware of, like, what's going on around you, because obviously you're not drowning your brain with substance, but, like, there's a level of guilt of for me, I'll speak personally, like, there was a level of guilt of how irresponsible and how kind of burdensome I was to people. Like, I felt this, like, really heavy sense of, like, just almost, like, owing people my presence as a sober person to make up for my presence as a drunk, high mess.

And one of the things I just, like, my again, my sober coach, like, really wanted me to work on was just like, you don't owe anybody anything. And so your own body is your most you're most responsible for your own body because ain't nobody gonna be checking in, you know, like, you can check-in. And so for someone who's really struggling with that, it's like, you really do need to just, like, step aside, talk to yourself, be honest with yourself, and and just make decisions based on what is best for you. Like, oh, I came out with five friends. Like, what about them?

Like, they're gonna be fine. You're the one who's not fine right now because you're having to check-in with yourself. You can feel it. So I think that's one of the biggest, you know, a piece of advice I can give is just you have to be honest with yourself, check-in, because if you you, you know, if you can't take care of you, you can't take care of anybody else.

I'll be curious about your sensation. So you talked about, like, the witching hour, like, how it gets close to that time. You can, like, sense it and you can start to feel the the energy shift. For me now, I am more in tuned with my body. My experience is I can start to feel it rising almost like acid in my body.

My empathy is building for myself right now where I can feel it, where I'm like, if I put myself into T dance right now, what am I going to experience? And I can already feel it. It's almost like heartburn. And it's building up in me, and I now sense that. I can sense that when that's happening, and then that will start to create the trembles in my hands of like, oh my gosh, what am I doing here?

I'm about to have a panic attack. And now I know as soon as that feeling starts, check-in with myself, look at my timer, and be like, I set a timer for an hour, I think I have fifteen minutes left in me. So do you have a sense of what your bodily sensation might be when it gets close to that time?

It's so funny. For me, it's just kind of like I'll I'll I'll, like, kinda scan the room, and I just it's hard to describe even, like, physically how it feels. Sometimes it's that's the third beer that's been spilled down my back. See you later. Mhmm.

And then sometimes it's just, like, it's the way that people's eyes kind of steam to me. And there's just kind of like I'm very, like, engaging when I'm out. Like, I'll walk through the room and there's eye contact and there's, you know, this set. But when I'm walking through a room and there's just kind of this void of, like, connection and emotion and, like, and and any sort of, like it feels almost like like life. It's like like it starts to get, like, in zombieland in here.

That's when I kind of definitely start to pull out. Or and, again, it's just when when the room starts to feel too tight around my body, that's when I'm like, if I there are certain clubs and bars that, like, I just don't go to because they have no space for me to chill. Like, I just there's no little open pocket I know I can go and just have a moment. And so when when the pot and even if I go somewhere go somewhere that, like, really I know has those spaces for me, and those spaces are filled, that kind of, like, tightness, I'm like, mm-mm mm-mm. No.

No. No.

Sounds like you are definitely more of, like, a fruit fly. You like to do the fruit loop?

Absolutely. I'm a I have ADHD. I don't I can't stand anywhere. I'm a corner king.

I'm gonna go find a spot, and I'm gonna camp out for the entire night. I'm like, You can come to me. Like, I'm holding court back.

Yep, absolutely.

So I think as we get towards the end of our conversation, the last question that I have here is, what do you think could make a more inclusive queer social landscape? What does one look like, where both sober and non sober folks can feel both equally welcomed?

That's such a huge question. It's like, how would I rewrite how people interact with each other in queer space? It's like I I feel like one of the places that I have found has really actually been kind of like the new bar, the new club, the new place, the new thing is the gay sports leagues here in Boston. Because it is such an enormous collection of the full rainbow of the LGBTQIA plus repeating world. And it's a place where, like, there is drinking occasionally because it's an outdoor whether it's, you know, whatever sport you do.

Like, I was in the kickball team. And so, of course, like, people are, like, cracking beers and stuff like that because whatever. It's because because sports. But but at the same time, like, you're outside with queer people, girls, boys, theythem, everything in between. And you're having to you're being forced to work collectively.

And if you get too wasted, you can't do that. You can't catch a ball when you're drunk and and crazy. And people who are high on meth aren't outside in the sun. So it is really a wonderful place where you can find exactly who you're looking for to make those connections and start that life. The the team that I so in 2020, because, again, bars and clubs and stuff were closed, I was like, I have to be social.

I have to make friends. And I joined the kickball team in August of twenty twenty, not even a month after I was sober, and just happened to join, like, the sober group. And our captain was sober. This other girl that was on our team was sober. And so anytime anyone on social media asks me, like, whether they're sober or not, like, I'm moving to a new city.

What should I do? Like, where do I go? And I'm like, join a sports team.

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Like, it's just it is it's it's where it's at because you can just I mean, I I I was very lucky in that, again, like, my group is very, like, non drinky, very but also, like, you can find out. You can find that. Like, you can create your own. You can It's it's really a great great great thing.

I I have to. I I joined Gotham Volleyball in New York City. Mhmm. It's a huge part of my life for the, I don't know, four and a half or five years that I did it. And, you know, when we talked earlier about different manners of engagement, one of the beautiful things about a sport is, oh, well, there are there's a structure to how we're going to engage here.

And then it allowed for interaction in that context. You're like, when I'm playing volleyball, even if we're gonna have drinks later, we're not drinking right now. Right. You know, we when we have we have a clock and we have a score and you know, and it allowed for the development of friendships in a way that I thought was so amazing. I love it so much.

So if golf and volleyball is listening, thank you so much for being an incredible organization because it just like, it was healthy, fun, playful, different. And then people were free to go to the bar afterwards, which we often did. But I would I would argue my own personal experience at the bar was that it was a little different having had just done a thing that we all agreed to. And the only time the the, you know, the only time I ever got really frustrated in Gotham volleyball was when I recognized on one this person would show up hungover. I wasn't mad that they were hungover, but I'm like, but I joined because I love volleyball, and we're a team.

So if you can't play, then you're impacting my ability to play. And I just wanna play. And most of the people were like, most of the people there were like, we all really like volleyball. Like, I don't you know, I was in Yeah. I was in, like, the the, like, the divisions that weren't actually that good.

So, like, we're not winning, like, Olympic gold medals here, but I'm like but I I still wanna give it my 100. I wanna try really hard, and I wanna sweat, and I wanna cheer, and I wanna do all the things. And it's incredible. So golf and volleyball and then whatever there was a Boston team that came down one time that I met, but I know there's a Boston volleyball league too. Right?

They're they have everything. Yeah. They have volleyball. They have basketball. They have kickball.

They have softball. They have tennis. They have chess. They have pool. They have everything.

Cool.

It's crazy. And it's it's also like something so wonderful to be said to to look out on that field and be like, I guarantee you, 99% of every person on this field got picked last in gym class. Mhmm. And now here we are kicking ass and taking names. That's right.

And it's it's it's definitely, like, just there's something to be said too for, like, it playing a sport and getting involved in a game, like, pulls your ego away. You can't just, like, stand and model and look cute. Like, you gotta get in there. And and that people really people's true selves come out so much faster and so much like, your real personality really shines when you're, like, in a situation where, again, you're right. You're all doing the same thing, you're gonna bring your A game to the table, and that's really gonna show people who you are.

And I think that's one of my favorite things too. It's like

There's such power in an environment that creates a container that has structure and has intention. Everyone is showing up with doesn't have to be the exact same intention, but a similar flavor of intention of like, I'm here to play. Right? I like line dancing here in town on Wednesday nights with Francis. I don't get to go all the time, but it is one of my favorite activities because we are all coming with the same purpose.

Mhmm.

Here to line dance.

Mhmm.

Not here to party. I'm not here to cruise. I'm here to dance. It's what I'm here for. It really helps me to rest to put that that, like, acid reflux feeling at bay.

Mhmm.

Because I'm like, we're all just here with the same purpose in mind. Like to just wrap up and say that all of my life experiences that that led to me to sobriety, I do not regret. They were a gift to me to help me be here where I am today. And my sobriety is now a gift as well. And it has helped me to look at the world in a different way.

It has helped me to navigate the world in a different way, giving myself a lot more compassion. A little bit more compassion as well. I still am very much an angsty teenager at heart. I work with that every day. And it has really helped me to settle more So it is a gift.

Yeah. And it's definitely something that my teenagers have asked me before too. It's like, what know, if you go back and look back at your life, what would you change? I was like, I'm afraid if I change anything, I wouldn't be where I am right now. So, like, probably nothing.

Well, this this time together was also a gift. You know? Thank you very much for for being here, sharing your story, sharing your vulnerability with us. It's deeply appreciated. So

Thank you very much for having me.

I would just like to say I've had the opportunity to be and connect with a lot of sober people over a long period of time. I think initially, and I was in a gay men's, like, artistic therapy group, and it turned out that some of the men were in there. And I really admired the shared vocabulary. And I remember when I because I was so young at the time, and I'm like, oh, one guy was able to speak to another guy so quickly to to provide perspective. I'm like, that's really powerful.

But the other thing so what I've noticed then is I think that sobriety is a practice. Right? Mhmm. Totally. And when we think of it from, like, you know, yogic, shamanic, embodiment, you're like, well, it's a practice.

And so when you are deeply steeped in a practice, then you start to understand the value of a practiced life in all sort of levels. Right? So this is why, you know, yogis practice on their mat. They're in a practice. Now that is meant to trickle into their life.

And so I just wanna kind of bring that to the to the forefront because the value of practice, whatever the practice is for you, can be transformational. And from my perspective, I'm not a sober person, but from my perspective, what I've observed is that sobriety is a practice that then informs the rest of your life. And we could make anything a practice if it is intentional, purposeful, and mindful, and then it can transform your life. So, like, is sobriety powerful? Yes.

Is embodiment powerful? Yes. Yoga and shamanism?

Like, yes. Yes.

And so what is your practice?

I don't I don't have eight hundred and fifty five total days sober. I have eight hundred and fifty five individual days. Right? Like, every day is a practice. Every single day is a different day.

Just like when we were doing a cold plunge. Right? Tim and I did cold plunges last winter every single day.

Oh my god.

Ago. Two winters ago. Yeah. Okay.

And, like, every day is different. Every day is a different experience. And you can have a streak going on. And all of a sudden, day 75 feels like the most miserable day. Right?

You're like, wait, wait. I thought this built onto each other. No. It's a practice. Every single day is gonna be different.

Every experience is gonna be a little different. Just keep at it.

Exactly. And that's one of the things that AA always says is like one day at a time, and that's an even more eloquent way of putting it. It's just like sometimes it's gonna be day 75 is gonna be way harder than day four.

Totally. Mhmm. And then just day 76 is like, this is the easiest day of my life. What what's going

on here? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.

It's a practice, not a perfect. Yes. Mhmm. Yes. Alright.

Well, with that, I'm feeling very complete. We'll just do a round robin. Tim, how are you feeling? I feel complete. And Dave?

I feel complete.

Tim, will you take a sample? I will.

Let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale through the nose. Soft exhale through the mouth. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for any insights, awarenesses, understandings that may have been gained in this shared sacred space that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we called in. And with these bars are containers open but not broken.

Wow.