Emotional Alchemy with Alex Lehmann: Transforming the Pain of Otherness into Purpose

Welcome back to The Circle, where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you haven't already, please be sure to like, subscribe, and leave us a review. Today, we're joined by Alex Lehman, host of the Heart of Man podcast and a men's leadership coach dedicated to helping men develop emotional awareness and a deeper sense of self. Together, we'll explore what it's like to feel othered, how to give language to those feelings, and learn about ways we can transform the pain of those experiences into clarity, strength, and purpose. Tim, Alex, are you ready to go all in?

I'm ready.

Alex, from what I understand, your journey has shaped the work that you do today. Can you share a bit about your story, especially those early experiences when you felt different and how that has influenced your path?

It's interesting because I'm asking myself, where do I go with this? Do I share the long version of it? Do I share the short version of it? But I think what comes up for me right now in this moment is essential teaching that guides me by trauma specialist, Gabar Mate, which is we will prioritize as children attachment over authenticity. And I definitely saw that being very prevalent with me growing up.

I grew up in an immigrant family in Germany, and my parents originally come from Russia. And so, early on, I already noticed there was differences. There was differences in our behavior. There was differences in terms of language that we were using. There was difference in the norms of what was okay and what was not okay.

And so, when I would leave my familial household and go out in the wide world, I would notice people are operating differently. And within that, I noticed the deep desire, and again, this is not something that is very conscious, but the deep primal desire to belong. The deep primal desire to be connected to the individuals in front of me. And so I noticed already early on wanting to hide, wanting to mask the fact that I grew up in an immigrant family. I wanted to tell everyone I'm German.

I'm not actually originally coming from a Russian background. And so I already had these very early imprints from a young age. Now one thing I might wanna add here that I think could be valuable for the listeners, At 10 years of age, my life changed radically from one day to the other when we, as an entire family, moved and immigrated to Canada. And so I was in a completely new environment where I didn't speak the language, I didn't, again, understand the norms of culture of society. And here I am completely on my moan, trying to find a way to come into contact, come into connection with individuals.

For me, the way I came into contact, at least initially, was non verbally. And for me, it was through exercise, it was through sports, team sports particularly. And so I noticed early on already wanting to connect, but I would argue because of my differences, because I was coming from a different country, people would reflect back to me very early on as well already the differences in me. I would be chastised. I would be bullied.

I would be laughed at for being German. Eventually, I would be laughed at for my appearance. And so I already noticed in there that self consciousness began to kick in. Right? This this strong attention towards myself, whereas in the past, it was just something that was not even thought of.

And so as the experiences that I had accumulated over and over after time, I noticed more attention being directed towards me, which led to an increase and an accumulation of shame, and I would argue internalized shame particularly, which eventually led me to isolate myself very deeply.

The the first quote that you shared, attachment over authenticity. So as I hear you talk about the different ways in which you started to maybe hide yourself or start to shift chameleon in, in the attempt to attach, in an attempt to connect, it really started to repress your authenticity, and then you started to going into shame. So did I understand you correctly in kind of that?

That is absolutely it. Right? And I would say that is I would argue that is the conditioning we all receive. We subconsciously, covertly, or overtly receive messages around this aspect of you is okay. This way of operating is okay.

That is not. We will praise you for this. We will punish you for that.

Right. So this survival mechanism that we have as humans as a communal species is that if we are not in the group, we are vulnerable and almost certainly going to die. Right? So this concept of the difference between fitting in and belonging, and we've all heard this, right? The opposite of belonging, Brene Brown, right?

The opposite of belonging is fitting in because belonging is showing up as your full self, but fitting in is molding yourself into what I think you need me to be in order for me to stay here. But I think I think many people listening can relate to that experience and this idea of, well, we shouldn't we shouldn't beat ourselves up for that because it's our we're trying to survive. We're trying to to to not be other, to not be beat up, to not be ostracized, to, like, to feel like we can be here. So I think that we can relate intensely to that idea of I am willing to forego aspects of myself so that I am not isolated or othered.

Yeah. It starts to serve a purpose, but at what effect long term? And I think, Alex, that's what you were about to start talking about is, like, the long term effects of this type of hiding of self.

Completely. Yeah. I I guess where I would like to begin with this is sharing maybe some of the adaptive strategies that I learned early on and the ways that I sought to cope with the the stress around, do I belong or do I not belong? I think from an early age, I cultivated a depth of sensitivity, and it's almost like my environment demanded it of me. So, I became very attuned to my environment.

I felt like I needed to be the caretaker for other people's experience, manage their emotions, be the savior to some regard as well. I became the perfectionist. So I sought to make everything perfect because if I do well enough, then I might not be ridiculed. I might not be shamed. I not might not be chastised.

I sought to overachieve with everything that I was doing. So I was seeking to prove myself. And at the core of it, I wanted to be validated and approved for my value, for my worth. I became a nice guy. Right?

I sought to appease the people I was with and and make them happy, however, at the expense of myself. And I think this is where the flaw was. So these are the ways that this was showing up.

What I feel like I heard you saying just then were all mechanisms for safety. Like, cultivating safety, but like, I'll be safe if I'm good enough that you'll keep me. I'll be safe if I Yes. Yeah. So it the like, the it feels like the root of what you just shared was I'm really trying to keep myself safe, and I'll do that by being amazing, being super helpful.

And I mean, I just watched the thing about highly sensitive people who were, as children, very attuned, And they create more mirror neurons in brain and nervous system because they are like, I am looking to see what you need, be hyper aware of any shift in you. And that can be like a superpower. It can also be a real burden because then Absolutely. You are you are easily overwhelmed because you're like, I'm aware of everything that's happening.

Right. In the beginning, it can be helpful because it is a it is serving a safety. It is trying to keep you safe. But like you just said, it's starting to have an impact on the nervous system at the physical level. If these neurons are being increased in comparison to somebody that's not going through that experience, that has to have long term consequences.

Oh, wait. Absolutely. Can I can I just share something really quickly? I mean, I I spoke to this with a yoga teacher. I have a real fear of well, I I have a dislike Mhmm.

Of bugs. They're tricky. My but but but here's the thing that like, my nervous system is I can be in a dark room watching TV falling asleep, and I'll I'll I'll see something. I'll be like, boom. And, like, I will notice, like, the one bug in the room.

Right? And my this yoga teacher that I worked with, she was like, yeah. It's not in my karma to see that. She doesn't notice those things. And I was like, oh, it's a karmic thing.

Now I believe it's actually a nervous system thing where I'm like, oh, I was so hypervigilant because of things. And it sounds like a similar situation with you Yes. Customizing or creating a hypervigilance that now I'm like, well, the reason I see the bug is because I'm always looking for danger, and my nervous system is now trained to do that. To this day, even though I feel like I've relaxed, if there's a bug in the room, I will almost certainly be the first one to see it, and I'm not gonna love that.

I love that you both are bringing in the nervous system, and I would argue I mean, there's different there's various different modalities that have shaped me, but I would say nervous system work is definitely one of the more foundational pieces to my work. And I would argue this is also where everything begins. This is the roots. This is the most systemic work that we can do, and we have to as well consider that the nervous system speaks a very different language that we might speak consciously. So consciously, we are we might not even be aware that we're seeking to be safe or that we're looking out for danger.

But this is exactly what the nervous system is dialed in to do. I mean, you know, for millennia, this has this system has sought to keep us safe. And so as a result, we will look out for danger. Now the question is, is what I'm seeing as dangerous a perception, a perceived threat, or is it actually a real threat?

Exactly. Exactly. Is the is the bug in Tim's bedroom out to get him?

Well Or yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it goes to that book, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. Right?

What is the threat? And my perception of that threat can have an impact on how I deal with it. But as you know, if I perceive the rent payment, the work deadline, the tough conversation with my partner, whatever, as a real threat, our physiology will respond to it as such, our nervous system, our endocrine system. Like, so we it becomes a practice. Would you argue, like, we have to practice working with our nervous system and our physiology when we encounter threat stress whether it's real or not real.

Absolutely. And the question that as well arises is, well, how do we work with our nervous systems to do so? Would it be valuable to maybe share some thoughts on that?

So for a per for a person listening right now and they like, oh, I want to begin working with my nervous system. I wanna start to gain some tools, but I've never done it. Because, like, the three of us, we've all done, like, different kinds of men's work and yogic work and shamanic What would you say to someone, oh, I'm listening and, yeah, I wanna do it. Well, where do I start?

I would say the foundational place to begin is with the breath. Absolutely. I just wanna pause here and just say that. So

Wait. Should we pause and take a breath?

We can Let's take a deep inhale. Do that. Yeah. Deep inhale. Exhale through the mouth.

Beautiful. Yeah. So toning using sound as well on the exhale is a is a wonderful avenue to as well access a regulating, relaxing response to the nervous system. So there's various ways for us to address a relaxation response within the nervous system. One could be breath.

One could be movement. One could be sound. One could be touch. Cold exposure as well can be absolutely wonderful to bring a relaxation response within the body. So those are some cues as well just to watch out for.

But I think for anyone who might not be aware of such things, the breath is one of those foundational ones. If and it it also really depends on where one's default is. Is one's default more towards anxiety, or is it more towards apathy and lethargy? So within that, my answer will be nuanced, meaning that if someone has a bit more of an anxious default or more dysregulated, Actually, truthfully, both states are dysregulation. But if someone experienced more anxiousness, I would focus more on regulating breath practices.

Meaning, the focus is gonna be towards the relaxation response, focusing on extending those, elongating those. If someone struggles with apathy and lethargy, I would focus a lot more on the activation, the inhale response. Right? So I think those are some cues that I would just wanna point out, but I would argue working with a practitioner or working with someone who has a foundational understanding of the nervous system is usually a great place to be in.

So just to summarize what you heard and what I've what I've often said, I just wanna make sure that we're in agreement here. If someone is activated, anxious, stressed, and they're looking to try to calm that down, turn the volume down, relax a little bit, you're gonna invite them to extend their exhale. But if someone is sluggish or low energy, you're gonna invite them to accentuate or or or elongate their inhale as a way. And that that's what I will tell people. Like, if you if you wanna relax, longer exhales.

If you wanna wake up, longer inhales. Is that sort of what you're saying?

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It can be quite simple as such.

Really, really simple and powerful. I think that's the thing I wanna remind people who are listening. It doesn't have to be super complicated. It doesn't have to look like it's at the top of a mountain. You don't have to have a special outfit or crystals around you.

All of those things are great, and I and I have special outfits and crystals, like,

you know

but you don't need it. You can be in your car or on the subway or on the bus, and if you're feeling anxious, start to lengthen your exhale. If you're feeling sluggish and you need to activate, you can start to lengthen your inhale. You can do this, and no one even has to know you're doing it. Totally.

Yeah. Yeah. What I would also just wanna add as well is, you know, I used to experience a lot of chronic anxiety, depressive tendencies. I experienced a lot of internalized shame for myself, and so as a result, I experienced low self esteem. And in the aftermath, what I can now say is that I was very much ejected from my body.

I was disassociated from my body. I was not in contact with my body. And so, as a result, I was not even aware of what's present within my body. And so, the breath, and if we just focus on the breath, if we can just as well focus on the sensation of the movement of air moving through our body, this is already a doorway where we can begin to bring our access back to the body. And I would say this is as well the place from which I've as well experienced myself to really be able to work with these responses.

You know, chronic anxiety is something I experience extensively, and I might still have episodes where I notice fear arising, but because I have a depth of sensitivity now towards my body, because I've trained myself to be in my body, when those states arise, I can work with that. You know? I can maybe do a practice that allows me to regulate in those moments. If I notice I need a little bit more activation, I observe that within my body, and I can as well bring myself into some form of practice that allows me to activate.

You know, I'm really curious because I I love what you just said. And I'm wondering, you talked about shame and feeling othered and isolated and and having that like, what do you think it is about those experiences that tend to take a person out of their own body or embodied experience?

One definition of trauma that I really like is anything that is too much, too fast, too soon. So one could as well speak of it as extreme states of overwhelm, where we were not able to come back into a state of regulation. I think our bodies are designed to experience stress. So stress itself is not a bad thing. But this challenge arises when we're not able to come back into a relaxation response.

And this is where the nervous system registers, I was in a threat response, and now I'm back. I'm safe. And especially as children, we actually need the guidance. We need the direction of other individuals, our caregivers, our parents, that can actually provide that safety response. We need to be able to express the experiences and the way an experience has impacted us.

The unfortunate thing for many individuals is they are not effectively held through such experiences. You know, especially as men, we're as well socialized and conditioned towards not sharing such experiences, meaning that we never fully complete the cycle, the activation cycle.

Right. We never where we never come back, like, make it full circle. Is that what I'm saying?

Yeah. Right. That's that's absolutely correct. Right? And so the nervous system still registers as if we're still in the response.

So anything that might be similar to the same event that led to that experience of overwhelm, If we feel the slightest hint of that, it's almost like we regress, we time travel back to that first time that this happened. And the nervous system picks up. What is the response that I learned in that moment that kept me safe? And we will bring that response back and seek to as well generate an experience of safety within that moment. That unfortunately is often not going to be the most effective response.

It might not bring us actually into the type of life that we want to lead. So so just to make it a little bit more concrete, I learned to hide. I learned to be the silent one. I learned to be the obedient one. So when things feel threatening to me, when things felt threatening to me in the past, I learned yes, absolutely, just the way that your body kind of represented it.

I stiffened up, I tightened up, and I tried to make myself small. Whether it was through my physiology, energetically, and I didn't want to be seen, I wanted to be invisible. Right? So that was great, perhaps, in those moments when I was young. However, as an adult, it didn't really lead me to be able to live lead a life that I wanted to live.

And that was where the challenge came in for me.

When I was hearing you talk about just you saw my body tense up. Just I was like, in that experience, was like, okay, like, if I'm experiencing this for myself, how am I going to feel it in my body? And it was exactly that. And so when I'm in a state like that, I have a really hard time expressing what's going on inside of me. And so now I want to figure out a way to bridge the topic that we were discussing around nervous system and how that translates into emotions and how we can express those emotions or through a restricted nervous system response, how we might repress our emotions and our emotional expression.

Yeah. Beautiful. Is there a specific question that you wanna lead, or would you like me just to share my perspective on that?

I would invite your perspective on on what you just heard. Yeah.

Well, what I what I'm picking up on that so in those moments when we are dysregulated, usually, we're in a state of hyperarousal, and adrenaline, cortisol will shoot into our system, which are actually numbing agents, meaning that we won't actually feel contact to our body. We won't actually feel contact to the sensations, and as well the emotions that we associate to those sensations. So, the first thing for me is really how can I return back into a state of safety within my body? So when I'm able to return back into a state of safety within my body, that's when I actually get to feel my body again. And from there, I might be able to direct my attention towards what are the sensations that I'm feeling within my body.

Right? So forget about feelings and emotions for a moment, because those are interpretations of the sensations that we're having. But let's just focus on what do I notice? Maybe I notice some tightening within my belly. Maybe I notice some warmth in my heart.

Maybe I'm noticing my shoulders are moving forward. Right? So just bringing our attention towards that can be super valuable. And even as well within sessions with clients, I then begin to ask certain questions. Well, what is the texture of that sensation that you're feeling within your body?

If that sensation had a voice right now, what would it say? You know? What kind of color would it have? What shape does it have?

You're really creating a vocabulary for a person and their own and their own body and their own physical experience. That's what I

feel like That's absolutely it.

Yeah. And Absolutely. Because there isn't right or wrong. It isn't for the listeners as far as I understand it, it isn't as if anger has a profile that will feel like this. It's like anger for you and anger for me, like, can can feel different.

We might give it different colors and different textures, but we are invited into the exploration of it for ourselves. And and I feel like that's what I'm hearing you say. And I and I I think it's so important because understand what your anger is or your or your joy or your whatever and know that it doesn't have to be anything in particular except what it is for you.

I want to go back to something that Alex said though that really inspired me was like before we even bring emotions into it, before we even bring anger into the conversation, recognize what am I feeling? What's the sensation? Before I then say, Oh, that sensation is connected to anger. Sure. Yeah.

And then allowing people whatever it is they're feeling.

Yeah.

And I love the idea of this giving vocabulary to something, a practice that I brought into one of the sharing circles and one of the embodiment circles in town was I handed out a sheet. I was like, look, some of these men may not have a vocabulary for what's going on inside of their body. And so we started at the somatic level and I connected it to the elements. I said, Okay, take a moment and just where do you feel or where do you sense earth in your body? Where is there stability versus where might there be something shifting?

Is something rumbling with water? Is there wetness? Is there dryness? And just starting to give a little bit of clues to folks to be able to say like, oh, okay, these are words that I know. Right?

And now I can kind of start connecting them because like I can only speak from my experience. Like I was 35 years old before I even understood that there were more emotions than happy and sad. I had more ways to insult people and call people bad names than I did words for my own bodily sensations and emotions. Yeah. So just like being able to to work with people and be like, hey.

What's the texture? What's the color?

Yeah. I love what you're saying because I would argue a lot of men don't have a context Mhmm. For sensations, for feelings because we're just so early on conditioned that it's not safe for us to feel. Right? It's not it's not okay for us to feel.

And there there have been religious teachings where much of what is connected to the body is dirty or shameful. So this idea of mindfully coming into the body, I think is sometimes discouraged. So of course, don't have a sense of my physicality because it's inherently sinful. I I mean, I don't believe that, but that that was the messaging that I got. Well, like, oh, pooping is dirty.

Like, peeing is dirty. Sex is dirty. So many things are are, like, kind of dirty and bad, and we're not supposed to ever talk about them. You're like, okay. Well, then what happens when I'm having chronic digestive distress because of my anxiety?

Can I talk about that? Because one of the symptoms might be connected to these things we've said are bad and you shouldn't have and there's no there's you know? So so it doesn't surprise me at all then that we don't have any real practice with healing our body because we've been told, well, your body's kind of inherently bad. Most of what it wants to do, you shouldn't do. Yeah.

I I think this is a really good point as well that you're making here, Tim, because I think a good place to begin is for men as well to understand what is the value of this. Like, why even bring our focus towards this? How does this as well impact our lives? You know, I think a lot of men that I speak to, they wanna understand the ROI, the return of investment. Right?

So I

would be one those men.

Likewise. Likewise. Right? So what I would say the return of investment was for me is for me to bring more attention towards my body, for me to become more emotionally articulate. It supported me actually to lead my life in empowering ways, and it would as well bring attention towards what I'm feeling, and so I can actually as well metabolize what I'm feeling.

Just consider that we're kind of like sponges, and, you know, we're walking through our lives, we're walking through the day, and we're impacted by our experiences. You know, and very much like brushing our teeth, we also need to tend to our emotional hygiene. Now the issue is, you know, we're not taught that this is actually a value. This is something that is important for us to do. Now what the what happens when we don't do that?

Our emotions our emotional expression, it accumulates over time. We eject out of our bodies because it's not safe to be in our bodies anymore. We become very analytical. So we're much in our kind of like cerebral context as a result of that. And so within our system, within our nervous system, we won't actually feel that sense of safety.

And so this is where we will actually experience chronic states of anxiety. Mhmm. This is where the coping mechanisms start kicking in. And I would argue, when we're coming from these places, we're not actually coming from powerful places. We're coming from propped up places.

And so for me, to show up in an empowered way is really about addressing what's here, metabolizing what's here, so I can really show up to this moment in a clean way where I'm not projecting my past experiences into what's here.

I back to the quote that you shared in the beginning. It's moving from attachment to authenticity. Right? Like being back in your body, being back home, being back as part of your full expression, full experience, and the beauty that that can bring to the world and to others, to yourself. It's such a gift to come back home to yourself.

But it's hard. It's hard when we've had so many years of being outside of our body, of being in this state of I'm afraid, I don't feel safe, and I have all these coping mechanisms and I've now just ejected, like you said. I love that I love that image of, oh, something bad happened. Like, oh, the bug in the room eject. Right?

You know, I've had this experience. I feel like I feel like honoring our authentic experience is one of the ways that we can move in this direction and start to heal. So I have two stories for you. One, so I also had experienced chronic anxiety. Little gay queer boy keeping it closeted, and I just had digestive like, my stomach would cramp and hurt so badly.

And I remember one time I was in New York City, and I got into a cab. I was rushing home because I was in so so much pain. I got into the cab, and I and I just, for the first time, kind of screamed. I'm like, it just hurts so bad. Because I I was like, I've been doing this for twelve, fifteen years, and, you know, and I'm embarrassed, and, you know, I'm rushing home in a cab I can't afford, and, you know, it hurts so bad.

And as soon as I said, it hurts so bad, half of the pain instantly disappeared. And I remember sitting in the back of the cab, and I was like, wait. What? Like you know? And I'm like, oh, I just claimed part like, so owning my authentic experience, which is I'm in a lot of pain because what I was doing prior to then is trying to pretend so no one knew.

So same same digestive issue and pretending like, I'm fine. I'm fine. Nothing's wrong. Mhmm. And it shifted.

And the same thing, the second story was when I auditioned for my second Broadway show, and I finally had just had enough. And I walked in to sing. I was like, you're never supposed to do this, but I'm like, I'm just really nervous, everybody. Mhmm. I just told them.

I'm like I'm like, I'm just really nervous. And then immediately something shifted, and of course, they were all so nice to me. And then I sang my song. I probably sang it better because I had said that even though you're not supposed to do that. So if you are auditioning for Broadway, do not tell them you're nervous.

It's, like, not what they're interested in. But it worked for me because it was my authentic like, it was it was more authentic than the thing I was trying to pretend to be. Yeah.

I love that. Thank you for sharing both of those stories, very intimate and vulnerable stories, and I appreciate both of those. I mean, just the acknowledgment of them is really powerful and beautiful, so thank you for sharing. And I've actually received the opposite advice of like, you said, if you're going out for that audition, don't tell people you're nervous. And I've actually been told that during interviews, I guess I'm just going to talk from a corporate America standpoint, that it's if you're giving a presentation or you're in an interview, acknowledge your feelings, acknowledge your experience because it makes you more relatable.

It's like, oh, this is a human in front of me. And now all of a sudden, the power dynamic that may have been at play, oh, interviewee, interviewer, you hold the power. Now all of a sudden, the the the field has kind of leveled by just me expressing my internal field. Like, this is what's going on inside of me and I want you to see it. It's a very vulnerable act.

And most people, they see that, are going to acknowledge it and respect it. So I respect you, Tim, for letting us in.

Yeah. I appreciate you. Appreciate you.

I I love what you both are sharing, and as well, thank you as well for, you know, these two stories and these two shares. And a few things are coming up for me, which is, you know, if I were just to ponder on the stories that you shared, Tim, I consider how you might have moved from suppression, repression, and avoidance of those feelings towards expression. Yeah. And I think this is something substantial for a listener just as well to consider. So where are we in a state of suppression and repression and avoidance?

And where can we, in safe environments, in environments that feel safe to us, I think that is the important caveat, move towards expression. And it can as well begin solely just with ourselves. Right? So I think that is as as well a foundational thing just to begin with. I as well have a story on that that I would love to share.

Please. Which yeah. So one thing that is coming up for me as I heard your story, Tim, is I used to work as a paramedic. And it was you it was probably at the height of the anxiety that I experienced, the depression I experienced, and as well the low states of confidence. I experienced deep social anxiety.

For me, it was very confronting to be in a room with strangers, to be with individuals that I didn't know. That was really challenging for me. And early on, I learned to not express what is there for me, because I had had experiences where individuals use that against me. And I was chastised. I was ridiculed.

Individuals that I trusted, you know, where that eventually ended up backfiring. And so I learned early on to hold such experiences in. And within my work as a paramedic, you know, we would be working in pairs, and there was one coworker where I felt a sense of safety coming from him. I'm not sure how connected he was to this work, but I recognized as well that he prioritized creating safety within his environment, and he wanted to make people feel safe. And I remember on one shift where he had just asked me, hey, man.

What's going on? You know? Like, what's what's happening for you? Because it was quite obvious that I was terrified. It was quite obvious that I was going through a lot.

My physiology was already informing everyone about this. But what he was doing is providing me a space where I could share. And I didn't do that initially. I first needed to know from him, can I trust you? When I felt that, I leaned in, you know, and I just began to blurt out my story, my experiences.

And I recall still the way my body would tremor when I did. It's almost like I was releasing the excess stress from those moments of holding that in. And I can only remember as well the liberation, the freedom that I felt on the other side of that, of being in an environment with someone that feels safe, where I got to express that. And for me, that was the first time where I understood the value of expression versus repression.

Thank you so much for sharing that story with us. I I feel like I could I imagine myself sitting next to you and having that experience. It really does bring up When we think about men's work, one thing we think about is the safety of the container, creating conscious safe spaces into which men can come and start to experiment and play and feel with expression. And so if you haven't been in one of these spaces, you get to start to have this experience. I think it's so powerful when you can feel that safety is when you can really go to that next level.

And then you also you know, I've been fortunate enough to be in spaces where men with more experience are modeling and demonstrating for me kinds of expression maybe I'd I'd never thought was available to me or I wasn't allowed to have it or wasn't appropriate. And so I think you're really talking about an aspect of men's work that is so valuable, which is we can really only experiment and try to express when we feel safe to do it. If we don't feel safe enough, it's like that's survival. I'm gonna prioritize acceptance over authenticity. I'm gonna prioritize, So back to the very beginning

I'm ejected out of my body, and I'm only in my head.

Safety, safety, safety, which doesn't which means, you know, I'm not gonna maybe in this moment feel able to try something new and vulnerable. So, I mean, what would you say about since you just spoke about safety, how how you've seen it impact the men with whom you work?

In in terms of them developing a sense of safety through the work with me?

Or, like, how safety, whether you're leading a group or working with individual clients, has allowed men to start to learn the the the variety of expression that is available to them and finding their own flavor in it.

It's it's just simply the foundational piece. Right? There there has so the safety gives individuals a permission field.

Permission field.

So that's, yeah, that's the word that really stands out for me. So without the safety, we actually don't feel like we have the permission. And permission is not something that someone else can give us. It has to start with us. So, we have to give ourselves the permission, but we won't do that if we don't actually feel the sense of safety for it.

Right? So, think it begins there, and environment plays such a critical role for that. Right? So, I think for anyone who's listening in, who is at the effect of all the conditioning that there is that they've received, and as well simply don't feel safe, my curiosity to you is, what are the environments? What are the places where you can go where individuals might be speaking a different language, where there's a different message that is communicated, where, yeah, your authentic expression is actually not just welcome, but it's encouraged.

Can I pause you there for a second? So one of the missions of this podcast, especially in this moment, is that, you know, there are queer people all over our country who may not be feeling safe or seen or feel like they have communities or resources, and this podcast is hoping, aiming, trying, choosing to be one of those things. So if you are a queer person and you feel really isolated, can that safe space be your bedroom with your headphones on listening to us? Because we are here with you, and we want you to know that you are not alone. And then I think that exploration of what are the places where you feel safe is so important.

When I was a kid, there was never a discussion of a felt sense of safety. I think the adults in my life were just like, well, you're safe because I kind of know that. But no one was ever no one was ever asking me if I felt safe, and I often didn't. And so bringing that into the conversation, think, is really powerful.

Absolutely. And I think that that idea of somebody from the outside maybe perceiving like, oh, your physical environment is safe. There's not a wolf in your bedroom. Like, you're safe. But they don't understand the internal environment where there are wolves attacking from all directions.

Totally. That goes back to being able to express the internal experience out to the world because what somebody might see is like, oh, he's safe, he's fine. But in reality, it's like, well, that's not how I feel. And I think creating environments in which we can start to bring our internal environment external out into the world, whether that is somebody in their bedroom listening to this podcast. I hope this podcast helps you out if you're listening.

I do too. Creating that safety and ability to receive and then also hopefully express in return.

It's beautiful.

So I'm feeling that we've covered a lot of ground. And so I just want to do a quick check-in and to see if there's anywhere that you all would like to explore either new or a little bit deeper before we start to wrap things up.

Well, I think I want to go a little bit into how how our felt sense, which I think we've talked about pretty well, can translate into emotional literacy. Okay. Let's go there then.

Yeah. I love that. Is there I'm curious, Tim. Is there a specific question around that that you'd be interested in exploring?

I mean, I'm interested in we live in a culture where it occurs to me that men were allowed only a few emotions in a few particular circumstances. And we are learning now through men's work that in order to engage fully with your partners, with your children, with your communities, with your colleagues, a broader understanding of your emotional state and how it impacts you is really powerful. So if I'm if I'm a man who wants to step into that powerful authentic expression, but I I have existed in a world where I don't have a context for that, how do we how do we start doing that?

Yeah. It's such a great question. I think, first of all, being in environments with individuals who might have that emotional literacy is foundational to begin with, meaning that we need to have a context for something that we don't know about. Right? We don't know what we don't know.

So being in environments with individuals who can bring awareness to the things that we don't know is absolutely foundational. And I think as well, giving us some form of structure or some form of direction, some form of guidance for us to start bringing awareness towards our bodies is as well foundational. You know, I consider as well a teaching from one of my teachers, Edward Dangerfield, a beautiful man, beautiful friend of mine, beautiful mentor. And when I went through his breath work training four years ago, he guided us every day for three months through an exploration of, you know, what in some traditions is called the medicine wheel, which is how am I feeling physically, how am I feeling mentally, how am I feeling emotionally, and how am I feeling spiritually? And it was interesting for me how, on day one, my capacity to articulate my experience was vastly different from the way I expressed my experience on day 90.

It was vastly different.

Through those ninety days, how did you learn? Was it through others? Was it through like, did you have printouts? Like, how were you able to start expanding your vocabulary?

Well, I think it begins by a few things. So presence and sensitivity. So I think those are things that I've had to really amp up, and I had to really increase my capacity for both of those. Meaning everything is already here within the body. But we just gotta be what I had to learn is to become more present and more sensitive towards that, what I'm noticing.

Right? Absolutely. Having vocabulary, you know, maybe I mean, there's a I think there's a beautiful diagram, you know, that expresses, like, hundreds of different words for feelings.

The feelings wheel?

Yeah. Is that is that what it's called?

It is. I I actually brought one in for the sharing circle. So I'm I'm big on printouts. Yeah. Because I'm like I'm like, these worked for me.

Right? Like, I've I've I've had to make flashcards Mhmm. For my emotions because, like, I just didn't have the vocabulary.

That's a beautiful place to begin. Right? And so especially for those individuals who simply don't have that sensitivity yet, they can draw their awareness towards what is my experience, and what is the word that points more most closely to what it is that I'm feeling. Yeah? And it's almost like that what I'm thinking of right now is the more you do that, the more data you're beginning to collect.

And you're starting to understand the nuance between this is what I experienced on day three, but on day seven, I noticed a completely different experience. Right? And so over time, we're starting to cultivate that in our library. I think a beautiful practice that I like to as well give my clients, which I received from Chris Bail, was this idea that, you know, set yourself alarms. Set yourself Post it notes where, you know, every few hours or so, you check-in that, you know, maybe the alarm goes off, and then you ask yourself a few questions.

So the questions I ask is, what do I feel in this moment? Where do I feel it? Based on what I'm feeling, what do I need? What's the three questions?

What do I no. That's so powerful. What do I feel in this moment? Question number one. Where do I feel it?

Meaning, where in your physical or subtle body do you feel it? Right? And then based on the answer, what do I need? Absolutely. Simple and powerful.

I'm gonna incorporate that.

And then we add in an additional layer of vocabulary of needs and understanding human needs and like, Okay, from physical safety all the way up, it's like that can be an entire another episode or another conversation in my opinion. Right? So I think it's just it's a really beautiful practice that just keeps with the intention of studying. And this is where me as somebody that was trapped in my head for a very long time, needed things that would help bridge the gap from my thinking and the things that I excelled out, was academia and business and all these things. I needed a bridge to help get me into my body.

And part of that is like studying, like studying vocabulary, stuttering words so that I then can be like, okay, like, let me look at my wheel. Like, this this seems like it's the most related thing to me right now, and if I don't understand it, maybe I need to look it up. Right? And I do the same thing with like needs because there's also a needs wheel that you can like look around the outside and be like, what is it that I might be needing? Like, when I'm talking to my therapist, I'm in weekly therapy because, you know, got a lot of shits on back.

Like, that's my big struggle a lot of times is like, don't know how to express. I don't know what I'm wanting. I don't know what I'm needing, and I don't know what I'm feeling because I don't have the words.

So what I'm hearing you say, which I think is really powerful, is the invitation to if you are starting to become curious about your own emotional experience, your emotions and how they express, we it isn't a light switch. Mhmm. It's not gonna go from zero to a hundred. It is gonna be a practice. In the same way so for all the people listening, when you go to the gym and you you say, I want big pecs.

I want big arms. You don't do one workout and think, then it's over. It's a slow process. And I think what I'm hearing you both talk about is this invitation into an ongoing, ever deepening journey so that there may be an emotion you are capable of experiencing ninety days from now that you don't even know exists right now Mhmm. Because of the journey and the exploration and the allowance for that.

And I think men really do need permission to have that messy journey of discovery, feeling a thing and being allowed to call it something, and then two weeks later realize, oh, it's actually something subtle slightly different because I had to sit with it in Brussels and, like, put a name on it and then change that name. You know, like, inviting people into, like, a messy process in the in in the direction of growth. And the the image that's coming up for me now is gardening. Like, oh, you you plant a garden. You get dirty when you plant a garden.

But later, there are tomatoes or pumpkins or whatever you're growing. Or beautiful begonias. Or or or yellow roses, like, whatever the thing is. But but the process of making that required that there was, like, a little bit of messiness and dirt dirtiness to it.

Yeah. Absolutely. And the thing I'm observing as well, which kinda speaks to the challenge, is I feel I observed that a lot of men struggle with being with that messiness because it reflects to some regard our incompetence and maybe as well brings elements of shame up around feeling like we're not good enough, which then leads a man to kind of go back to the same coping mechanisms that worked in the past, because this is where we'll feel a sense of competency. Right? And what we really need, as you said, Tim, in order for us to train a new way of being, we actually have to practice it.

Mhmm. Right? We actually have to be a beginner. We have to go through the process of being a novice at something, to be really bad at it, to suck at it, to humble ourselves

Humble.

And be okay with that process. Be okay without being messy. I think the challenge is not so much around what to do. It's more around can we stay consistent in practicing.

So how do you invite the men you work with into the permission to be messy?

I I would often bring up the conversation around shame because I think this is one of the obstacles that can come up. Messiness will bring up these these elements of shame. And I think if there is one emotion that I observed myself having most challenges with and a lot of men having challenges with is shame. And I would argue it's because there's been many moments where we've experienced judgment, humiliation, criticism. And as a result, we're either over identified with our shame, where we're moving through the world in a very apologetic way, or we've masked all the shame that we're actually feeling, and we sought to become very competent, and we're almost propped up in such a way that it it we're not even aware that shame is present.

Mhmm. And for me, you know, and this is as well goes into the conversation around emotions and feelings. It's about developing a relationship to them, regardless of what feeling is there, whether it's anger, whether it's sadness, whether it's grief, whether it's shame, whether it's guilt. Just recognizing that, you know, they're one flavor of the human expression. There is some form of value that they have.

Otherwise, we wouldn't experience it. There's value to shame. Right? If I do something, yeah, it serves a purpose. If I do something inappropriate, and you guys call me out on that and say, Alex, I didn't appreciate what you did.

I would want to feel shame about that because it corrects my moral compass. It will correct my behavior. If I didn't experience shame around that, like, this is where we're getting into the danger around sociopathy, psychopathy. So we would wanna feel shame about that. The challenge is where we internalize that shame.

And we hold it for far too long.

Yeah. Mhmm.

Yeah. Brene Brown says this. Right? It it goes beyond I did something bad to I am bad. Mhmm.

So we personalize the experience of shame. And I think this is the challenge that so many men face that we have personalized our shame. We've made it mean something about us.

I'm so glad that you're bringing it up because shame is such a cornerstone challenge for queer people. Shame is the thing that talks about the velvet rage. Shame is a major factor that we have to wrestle with and confront if we want to move into our authenticity and full expression. And it's also sad but comforting to recognize a lot of people are wrestling with this. So if we can have places and conversations like the one we're having now, oh, well, we can talk about our shame so that we're not also burdened by it.

We're not all suppressing our truth because of it. And instead, maybe slowly but surely Bit by bit. Bit by bit, making making our way closer and closer to being being free of that shame by being able to look at it and recognizing I'm not alone. I'm not alone in feeling this shame. That person over there who I love and respect and have maybe idolized or put on a pedestal, like, people that I think are incredible have also had this experience.

And, therefore, we're all allowed, again, back to the messiness. We're all allowed to get a little messy to figure out and work through our shame in service to our authentic expression, happiness,

and joy. I'm feeling very connected and not alone in this conversation by being with you two men and hearing your stories and being able to share my own stories and allowing you to see a little bit more of what's inside of me and starting to see a little bit of what's inside of you and what's inside of you, it really does start to help me at least feel connected. And I feel very connected right now. And I just the invitation for everyone is like just let people in just a little bit. Right?

Go to that audition and tell people you're nervous. If that is your true sensation, if that's truly what's alive inside of you, let people know what's alive inside of you and see what happens.

I think what's alive for me that I would just maybe like to share as well with the listeners is having the courage to be seen. I think this is such a fear that if we truly show ourselves, if we truly reveal ourselves and our experience, that we might not be accepted for that. And what I noticed in my experience is through continuing to hide my experience, I actually perpetuated the feeling that people don't matter that people don't really care, that I don't matter, that I'm disconnected, that I'm all alone? And again, I wanna emphasize, in environments where you feel that sense of safety, where you feel like the individual in front of me can hold my experience, I I trust that. What if we allow ourselves?

What if we give ourselves a permission field just to reveal our experience slightly and see what happens? Can the person meet me? Alright. I'm gonna give them a little bit more. Oh, they're meeting me even more.

Great. I'll bring a little bit more. Right? So I think just working, it doesn't have to be this is me. In trauma therapy, we often speak about titration.

Right? Going one foot into the discomfort while having one foot sourced in safety. So I think this is really an encouragement that I wanna bring to the listeners. How can you lean into that edge of discomfort around the fear of perhaps revealing and showing your experience to those individuals that you might trust? And see if you can lean in and notice how you feel on the other side of that.

Generally, I felt more expanded. I felt more liberated. I felt more connected. And see what happens then.

Beautiful. Beautiful. I feel very complete.

You feel complete? I feel complete.

Likewise. I appreciate you both.

Appreciate you too. Tim, will you take us out, please?

Well, let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale through the nose. Sighing through the mouth. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for the insights, the awarenesses, the understandings, and the connection that we shared here that we now release the archetypes in the spirit. And as we leave the circle, I wish everyone safety, community, brotherhood, and love.

And with these words, container is open but not broken. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.