Reclaiming Fitness: Queer Strength, Body Image, and Self-Love | GBTQ+ Wellness with Matt Boyles

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

And my name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to the circle. Today, we're thrilled to be joined by Matt Boyles, founder of Fitter Confident You, a fitness platform created specifically for gay, bi and trans men. In the queer community, there's often hyper focus on how our bodies look, sometimes at the expense of how they feel or move. Matt has made it his mission to help queer men not only build strength and confidence but also foster a real relationship with their bodies beyond aesthetics.

We're exploring queer body image today, the challenges of body insecurity, how societal pressures create addictive or avoidant behaviors, and how safe spaces and embodiment practices can help us feel more comfortable, secure, and at home in our bodies. So, Tim, Matt, are you ready to go all in?

Yes. So ready.

Alright. Let's do this. So, Matt, I just wanna start with your journey. What inspired you to create Fitter Confident You? And how did you come to recognize the unique challenges queer men face when it comes to body image and fitness?

Lovely question and thank you both for being, for sure. Thank let's do that again. Lovely question and thank you both for the opportunity to join you and be part of this because I was listening to the other beautiful episodes you put out and I think what you what you're bringing to the world is really amazing and much needed.

Thank you.

My journey echoes, I would imagine, many men like me in that I grew up not liking sport or fitness. I went to a school that was very rugby focused, and I was a very skinny, spindly child who, funnily enough, didn't like being beaten up in the mud twice a week in winter. And, in nineteen eighties rural Worcestershire in the middle of The UK, there was very little provision for any other support for fitness or sport. So if you weren't in the a team, and I definitely wasn't, you were in the rejects team, it felt like. And the teacher who took it wasn't really interested either, so you halfheartedly did these PE sessions and just felt like rugby and sport and fitness was what other people did.

And at the time, what the cool kids did, because we had a very successful rugby team who actually did go on to play for England for the country. So you're we we're left to bask in their glow and feel more and more like rejects. But I sort of made peace with that and went through school and did other things, and I was fairly bright and had some other interests. But sport fitness, no no, sir. And then went to university and discovered drinking, and I was like, this is fun.

Who needs fitness? Explored that side first of all and, like, tried a gym session, hated it because it just felt terrifying, then left it for a few more years moved to London didn't know what to do fell into marketing which was okay and I met some lovely people and gave me lots of useful skills but it wasn't until a friend said oh let's try this boot camp and nowadays the word boot camp may strike fear into the hearts of people but in 02/2006 actually I didn't really know what it was and the the joyous thing was it was outside and the more I did it I discovered you you weren't you weren't in competition with people It was just about the sheer joy of using your body and I've got faster and fitter and I started sleeping better and feeling better about myself and realize and I started to realize Oh fitness doesn't have to feel like how I thought it would so it was a really big turning point and then after that I did try another gym and got lucky and happened to find a gay personal trainer who really helped me feel comfortable there and realize I was welcome there and that actually just with a little bit of knowledge a bit of competence my confidence there would grow and it did.

So I started getting more consistent with my fitness, my workouts, feeling all the different ways it was helping me feel better. Fast forward, quit marketing, became a personal trainer. That was, oh my goodness, fourteen years ago. And at first, I was a very traditional trainer. I stood in the park, trained people face to face because back then that was it was work there or work in a gym, basically.

But then seven years ago, I had seen the rise of some online trainers and thought, oh, that's interesting. Maybe I could do something like that. But it was also at that around that time, I realized the power that of my own fitness journey as a gay man. I'd found my voice my confidence my boundaries I'd set up a fitness company and realizing like a lightning bolt hang on there are other gay, bi, trans, queer men out there that were like me, but seven years ago and would like potentially to get started, but don't feel represented by the fitness industry, don't see themselves in in, like, any of the sports and fitness stuff out there, feel intimidated in hyper masculine environments. Maybe I could be the person to, with kindness, baby steps, and support, help them get into a routine with it because it changed my life and I knew it could change theirs.

And so seven years ago was when I moved online and that was when it really took off because finally people understood who I and who I understood, who I spoke for, and what and that the relevance of my journey to them. And then, yeah, I'm so grateful that I did because I adore what I do, and I'm so grateful so grateful to Matt from seven years ago to taking that plunge, but also for the opportunity to work with amazing GBTQ plus guys for how the business has evolved and literally bringing me in front of you two right here right now. Mhmm.

Thank you so much for sharing that. The things that I heard was, one thing was feeling more comfortable in a non competitive environment. Another thing that I heard you say was a focus on how it felt, during the workout. And then I heard you say the possibility of someone being intimidated by a hyper masculine environment and creating something that was other than that. And so I'm wondering, when we think about things like heavy heavily competitive or hyper masculine, and you mentioned rugby, like, do you feel like there's, like, an aggression or, like, a toxic sort of quality to this to some fitness that is off putting for some?

100% and that was exactly what put me off for so long because every time I looked at doing fitness again it felt exactly like it did back at school even if I was ten years older, 20 older. It felt like a serious boys club for serious boys doing fitness seriously. And I'm not a serious boy. I wanted to enjoy myself. I didn't want it to feel stressful or like I was being picked last again last again.

I've and the the beauty especially of moving online in the last seven years, my like, the blinkers have fallen away from my face and all the different ways that we can support each other and grow communities and find fun, interactive, inclusive ways to make sure everyone has a seat at the table and everyone is starts to everyone starts to realize that they can do fitness on their terms. There's no one size fits all there's just you finding your groove and the fitness industry used to be so rigid it was no pain no gain it was you have to burpee till you puke and again none of this is me. And I I guess over the years, I've learned that actually, I've learned to push myself. But, again, this is me on my terms. This isn't doing it how I'm being told you have to do it for success.

And I wanted to give as many people as possible just options. Life is better with options, don't you think?

Absolutely. I just want a full disclosure. I am someone I would identify as a fitness enthusiast. I love fitness. I feel very comfortable in those spaces, but I was trained in very particular things.

So I was a professional dancer, so ballet class, modern dance class. I was a swimmer, sometimes track and field and volleyball. I was always really athletic and simultaneously super uncomfortable with what anything that felt aggressive, especially because I was such a young small boy, small little gay boy in Western Pennsylvania. I'm like, if you have the opportunity to tackle me, it doesn't matter how strong or stable I am. These some of these boys in were so much bigger than me and, like, it felt intimidating.

It felt unsafe. So I had both this love of movement and fitness that I still have. But at the time, a real fear of anything that felt like it invited domination or even potentially it felt and also as a little gay boy in school for me, sometimes it's like, oh, this feels like a sanctioned opportunity for that bully to beat me up a little bit. And that doesn't feel safe. That doesn't feel good.

Yeah. That you've hit the nail on the head. And when I mean, puberty is tough for everyone everyone. But when you factor in, oh, hang on. Why don't I fancy girls?

Why do I feel different to everyone else? So you've got these extra things swirling around. And when you become 12, 13, 14, more aware of the outer world, as amazingly supportive as your personal family and group of friends might be, you start to become aware of violence against people like you. Mhmm. And then so when sport and fitness, which is meant to be something good, also feels like it, well, of course, it's gonna feel off putting.

Of course, people are gonna carry that into their twenties, thirties, forties, fifties. I'm speaking with clients in their sixties who still feel uncomfortable in the gyms. And so often it's to do in part at least that throwback to not feeling comfortable and safe at school when we're learning how to be. So this is inherited trauma. This is generational issues that hold us all back.

But it doesn't have to.

Yeah. And listening to both of your stories, I'm relating a lot to to my own story of, you know, being very averse to many physical practices, especially anything that had to do with a competitive nature of of other playing with other boys in a way that wasn't using my intellect, like a strategy game, I'm good. Right? But if it involves, like, the body or brawn, like, I'm gonna probably take a back seat approach because I don't I didn't feel comfortable in those scenarios. And so what I loved, what I heard you say, Matt, was kind of this this, like, baby stepping into fitness and working with that edge little by little by little.

Because I even to this day, if I start to feel that I am exerting myself physically too much, like getting to the point of doing burpees until I puke, there is a part of me that gets really triggered still. Mhmm. That gets really like, I'm gonna just give up. Like, I'm more of a give up person than I am, like, pushed through it. And, like, I will come up with any excuse to just, like, back away.

And so I'm curious, like, how have you worked with your own journey through that? And how do you now work with your clients through things like that?

For myself it was finding friends both gay and straight who I could share the experience with and whether it was going to a gym together and having a gym buddy and as soon as a gym can feel super intimidating to anyone but if you walk in with a friend it it more than halves that any embarrassment or stress because you you you support each other so brilliantly and there's that kindness and understanding you can joke and and soften it as well. So, like, I knew instantly the power of people to make what I wanted to do more possible and something that would bit by bit start to feel like something I wanted to do and maybe eventually go by myself. Also the the becoming aware of all the ways that it was oh sorry becoming aware of all the different ways that I was benefiting from it as well. So realizing that it was giving me back power that I thought I had lost so and we I know I know we're going to talk about this that of course when I first got into the gym and started to see my body change because I always saw myself as this even even in my twenties and early thirties, I still saw myself as this skinny eight year old.

And then when you do start to see your body change, it's kind of addictive. Well, not kind of. It is addictive because you go, oh, hang on. It allows you to see yourself in it and and on some level that allows you to start being someone else as well. Now there's a big thing there we shouldn't have to change our bodies to become different people or more confident but we were a very visual species of the five of the five senses we use our eyes something like 70% I believe so of course how we see ourselves in mirror and how we present that to the world does factor into who we are as a person so it's I I don't think you can separate that and say, and and say you shouldn't like use your developing body as a way to feel more confident because it's so intrinsically built into who we are.

It's literally who we see every morning in the mirror. But recognizing as well that I I had slept really badly all through my twenties partly from going out too much all those things that when you move to a big city and you sort of burst out of the closet but, when I was sleeping a bit better, feeling a bit better the next day, having a better mood the next day, having better interactions with people around me and realizing hang on this actually is more than just about how I look. Those and so those are the key things that obviously I instill and I talk about on Instagram and try to help people take a step back and look at why they're doing it but before that the first it's the first thing I mentioned it's people it's the Seeing people like us and realizing well, we might be weird But we're weird in a good way and they're weird like us and that makes me fantastic because I'm not the only one and then when they see us we realize that everything we want is valid and perfectly acceptable. So that level of community, whether it's just one person or whether you prefer you found groups or online groups or face to face groups or whatever.

And I one of the things that I've loved in the last, say, five years is the rise of LGBTQ plus fitness sport games groups to bring brilliant weirdos together who want to go and do ultra marathons or play chess or whatever they want to do. Because, again, I I think god. I'm not gonna rant at the moment. One more thing, and then you guys can talk. I sometimes this is connected.

I sometimes get on adverts and content from messages from other gay guys or bi guys or whatever someone from the community saying, oh, we don't wanna be different. We wanna be integrated fully with everyone. And I oh, and I always have to pause and go, I understand why you're saying that. And this isn't about being separate entirely. It's just about giving us the breathing space to be ourselves without all the crap that society piles on us when we go to, for example, a % straight gym.

Mhmm. So just giving us that breathing space to be us without any of the trauma generational crap we've learned. So I'll take a

breath. In the men's workspace, in in embodiment practice, we often talk about, finding out where our edges are. Edge sort of defined briefly as, the limit of our capacity in any particular way before we start to crumble. So we can have emotional and energetic edges, and we can obviously have physical edges. And so learning where our edges are helps us to be more skillful in how we choose to engage in the world.

When I when I recognize if we use a fitness example, like, oh, I can only hold 30 pounds, then it is unwise for you to hand me 50, because at that point, I could start to break and crumble. And then, obviously, there are emotional, examples of that. So one of the things I feel like I'm hearing you say is recognizing an edge that a person or people might have with their comfort level in fitness. And one of the strategies that they might employ is bringing a friend with them where they can start to learn and create a relationship with their own body with the safety of someone else. So to me that feels like a conscious strategy that maybe two or three years later after having done that with your pal or your your group, you know, because I know there are a lot of LGBTQ, fitness groups.

Maybe things start to shift and your edge has moved. But in that moment, it feels like a really beautiful strategy that allows us to create the relationship with our body without the fear or the uncertainty or whatever else might be standing in someone's way.

Exactly that because, physical safety, safety in numbers, doing something with a friend, going to a gym for the first time, is super important but that psychological safety as well because you're much less likely to base. I mean this is awful that we have to talk about this but and actually I do feel gyms have been doing more and more work about making them physically and psychologically safer as well. But someone who's a complete newbie, they don't know that. They absolutely are going in with all these preformed opinions, and it's amazing that they've found the confidence to go in. So going in with someone else absolutely yeah.

It it softens the edges and and gives them that I guess it's a kind of permission as well that we can do this together. I've got you know, like, that sort of symbiotic support with a really good friend or even, I guess or a person can't sound about to sound like an advert or a personal trainer who trusts you, who trusts and vice versa. Yeah. And there's lots of them out there. This isn't just about me.

Yeah.

I'm one of them. I'm one of them. Yeah.

Exactly. Which is wonderful. And I love that we're having this conversation and that we're not and because because honestly another thing that I've loved in the last five years is more and more people doing what we're doing and doing niche specific training and offering gay people or like lesbians with gay girls and trans women working together like again those safe spaces those moments where You just for example, you just don't have to come out That's one of the gifts of what we do because as we know we come out three times a day 10 times a day Sometimes when you're faced with someone a taxi driver or someone they start talking to you. There's you don't just come out once but Once you're in a group like or a community as we have created You don't have to come out. You don't have to explain anything about your partner your proclivities like whatever you like her into There's no judgment and that just takes away some of that extra stress that we we have to juggle and the thing is everyone is juggling these different balls these different things we have to keep in the air Family friends work hobbies all of that, but we have to we have an extra ball.

We're juggling as well. So yeah. And then trans people, again, have another ball they're juggling. Like, all of these different things, the more we can just help people put some of those balls down, the more they can just get on with fitness on their terms.

Absolutely. And and being with like minded people, I have a story that I would like to share. So I was a very chubby overweight kid. And I mean, it wasn't until recently that I actually lost weight. And, in high school, I was I was terrified to move in general because I was like, I didn't know if there was something wrong with my body.

I had chest pain. I like, you know, my my mother's father had died of a heart attack at a very early age. So I had this fear in my head that I was like gonna die if I if I exerted myself. And so you layer that on top of just like being a gay boy, being very ashamed of my body. I didn't want to change in the locker room.

If I was forced to change, I like would excuse myself to go into a stall, into a bathroom stall and change there. Like I could I like like it was my nightmare. And, I think I mentioned earlier, like, you know, I was much more prone to like strategy and brain stuff. And so, there was one year that I failed gym class and I was a straight A student. And I was, like, super proud of, like, having those straight a's.

And I was like, uh-uh. Like, you're not gonna fail me. And so I actually went up to the gym teacher and I proposed an alternative because I was terrified of participating in the gym activities with the other boys. And so I said, hey, I've got a group of friends who are all little weirdo weirdos like me. I think there was four or five of us.

And I said, we are all doing very badly in gym class. And, like, it's bringing down our grades. Can we propose an alternative? Can we have an alternative gym class where it's the five of us being able to, like, either go out into the soccer field and do our own thing or, go into the fitness room and like track, you know, our fitness activities. We're gonna do twenty minutes on the treadmill.

We're gonna do some weights. Right? And be separate from the rest of the boys. And he was actually receptive to it. And from that moment on, like, we actually were able to like, you know, kind of rest in the safety of each other and work on our fitness together and not fail gym class.

That's that's beautiful and amazing and pretty rare I would say but I love that that you well I love that you had the agency to come up with that idea and that they went along with it. That's wonderful.

Don't tell a brazen smarty pants that like he's gonna fail you know, a class for a reason that he doesn't agree with. I will come up with a solution real fast. But I grew up in a very small town like you. Like you said, like, you know, the only outlet, the only athletic outlet was like rugby. In my case, it was like I could do soccer or, baseball or basketball.

I grew up with a class of like 40 kids, very, very small school. And so, it was not easy. You couldn't really like blend in. Like everyone stood out. And so, like, you know, it really was, you know, it was a rare chance that like the the gym teacher would actually have accepted that, but like what other choice, right?

Like it's a small town. Like you can either force me to assimilate and like be even more miserable or you can, you know, use a little bit of empathy. And he decided to use empathy at that point.

Thank you for sharing that story. It's really it's really beautiful. So it feels like up until now, we've been talking about, one aspect of the queer experience with regards to fitness and body image, which is, maybe feeling a little othered or unsafe and trying to find safe places for that. But I'm also curious now from my own perspective, there is at least, a slice of us, I mean, maybe particularly gay men that now have started to get a lot of validation from their physicality. And so can put an enormous amount of importance on the aesthetic of their of their body and how they are viewed and perceived by others.

And at times, sometimes it doesn't always feel super healthy either or, like, or entirely balanced. So I'm wondering from your experience and with the people that you've worked with, like, have you run into this and and how do you how do you meet it?

I the sort of client that actually I attract generally isn't in that frame of mind. They haven't them crossed over to physical, appearance being their number one validation. They may have some hang ups with their body and we work on that in obviously a kind supportive way to help people love themselves and realize love like as I I always say, you can't hate yourself to change. You have to love and accept who you are and meet yourself where you are, and then you will change. And that's the amazing thing.

You can't do it the other way around. Obviously, I see this a lot and come across it all across whenever it was popping up wherever it is on social media. I think there are lots of facets to it. One of them, I was thinking about this earlier, is to do with not being able to be who we wanted to be when we were young growing up coming out and even when we come out it's not instantly like oh right now you're perfect and no you're still figuring it out so maybe guys well whatever age they are 40 are finally feeling able to be in their body and I don't want to put people off, because getting into fitness is an amazing thing and you don't want to dampen someone's drive, but you're right. I guess when it becomes a psychological need for that validation that's when I think it can become problematic.

And of course social media feeds into this and you look at one thing and then you get 10 more of it and then you realize oh okay That's oh, well, I guess the other part of this is we're very good at putting I'm gonna put this in inverted commas, the wrong people on pedestals or at least, say it's hard it's really hard to like people oh god we end up well okay comparisonitis people yeah. Maybe it isn't all of us. I think we do it individually sometimes as well. We can put people on pedestals and believe that that is the ideal. Whether it is someone taking steroids or whether it is just someone who works out a lot.

The problem with someone specifically is we can literally never be them. We are them, they are them and what we can do is admire maybe their work ethic and learn from them in terms of their journey but what I find is when people talk about that or use that they're linking it to again self hatred. I won't be happy till I look like that. I must have a perfect body to be acceptable to get a partner to have dates all of this and it's all this mushy Psychological thing that's tied up together in again Some kind of self loathing. I find some kind of I'm not good enough

and

it's that that we need to get to the root of with all of us to be able to like Yeah acknowledge someone else's workout more than us great that they love their fitness They work out all the times whatever they do. They like that's their thing I can be super proud and inspired by it But it doesn't have to hold me back and that I think is what it does for so many people But I mean I also I did a post about this recently as well saying that actually I don't think it's the community's fault because and I and I think that's actually quite a lazy response that doesn't that says this that sort of Stops people doing the personal work themselves and I think we do have a The older we get. I think we have a bit of personal responsibility to look inwards and figure out why we are how we are and if there are things there is crap holding us back looking at that and that doesn't necessarily mean therapy like there's a whole host of things out there that don't need to cost anything or even just being around people like you and talking it through bringing that any shame you have into the light so it withers but that's the side of this of I'm not good enough that's what it always comes back to and I obviously that's what we learn when we're young even before we know we're gay because we internalize and we we we sort of coming to terms with it and we see this in the wider world and like I said even if we have an amazingly supportive family we come across some kind of homophobia so that goes in and when we're young it goes in without a filter and it goes in the box and it goes in our heads and it comes out in different ways for the rest of our life unless we take a bit of responsibility to address it.

Well, that's exactly why I asked because, it's one of the reasons why I believe that embodiment work, men's embodiment work and specifically men's embodiment work for queer men is so important because I have witnessed and I've even experienced myself, a very particular kind of relationship with, with our bodies that can sometimes, as you rightly said, focus more on the parts we don't like than the parts that we do. And so embodiment practice and the way that I've been trained and the way I've been studying, it really is encouraging a relationship with our own body, but it it's a relationship that, like any relationship, requires time and patience and maintenance because you will you will be confronted at times with parts of you that you might have an opinion about with regards to, do I like my abdomen or how do I feel in this moment. And and one of the benefits of embodiment work is our ability when we do the practices to tap into other parts of ourselves. So the the wisdom of our heart, the wisdom of our gut, the wisdom of our primal, working in conjunction with the wisdom of our heads so that we can express ourselves more fully and authentically and create the world and the life that we wanna create.

And I think a lot of people don't do that, or are afraid to do it or haven't been given, the opportunity or the resources to do it. And And so this is why I think it's so important so that we get that full expression. And and if I can, I'd like to share a story. You know, the the embodiment circle has been running for over two years here in Provincetown. So lots of men have come in, and a lot of men have received and spoken about getting lots of value from it.

But there was this one guy that, that had been coming regularly and then had stopped. And I ran into him in town. I just sort of asked him. I'm like, oh, you were coming and then you just kind of stopped. What happened?

And he said to me, he's like, well, you know, for a few weeks in a row we did this practice where we were sort of pumping our abdomen with our hand. And it's like sort of a yogic Kriya. And he said he said, and I always feel kind of fat, so I didn't wanna come back and do that again. And I remember thinking, oh, that's interesting because, it might have been that that conversation might have been fruitful in being honest about your experience and then maybe starting to, like, develop the tools to shift that because I kept thinking to myself, well, if you're feeling it in that moment, then you're probably feeling it everywhere else and just choosing to ignore it, and that doesn't take that away. What would take it away would be some sort of conscious work around your relationship to, and in this case, his abdomen, but it could have been it could be anything.

And so and I say this in yoga all the time. I'm like, if something comes up on your mat, it absolutely comes up in your life, And the same is true with fitness. So, I have been doing workouts. If I start getting frustrated or if I start wanting to withdraw, I get mad at the coach or, you know, whatever the thing is. I'm like, well, whatever just got stirred in me exists everywhere in my life.

And so I have either the opera the option to look at it, examine it, become curious about it in a nonjudgmental way, or I can shove it in, and just carry it with me and let it let it come out sideways and you know? So so thank you for answering that question because the the importance of this work is exactly that, to be like, can we love ourselves into greater healing, which might which means we have to be courageous enough to see ourselves as we are.

I can relate to so much of what you just said, especially of the the person in the embodiment circle who was, like, feeling exposed. I think that's been a prickly part of my own journey is, like, is is it's painful sometimes to experience my body. It's painful to be reminded of my body. And so that prevents me from wanting to go deep in and I stay up in my head. As I start to experience a pain, I start like if I'm pumping my stomach and I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm like, oh, I'm a fat kid.

I'm a fat kid. I'm a fat kid. Right? I am now like in full, like, raw exposed pain. And it it is challenging.

It is very hard to, like, to go to that place and then work through it and then ask yourself with curiosity of like, what am I feeling right now? Like, I'm feeling something arise in me and I have a choice right now. I can sit with it and I can study it and I can like try to be with it and develop a security in my body or I can run away. And for a long time, I ran away.

So can I just ask you then, based on that expression, how would you say that that experience and working through it has served you, you know, in in service to your feeling better in yourself or or living more authentically? Yeah.

I have been able to sit and rest more comfortably in my body. Like I like, even sitting in this chair right now has been exposure therapy, really. Like, because I do. I like I I don't know how to explain it, but like my consciousness sits here so much of the time. And then I'm just a head on a body, right?

Like, and now I can actually like feel my body in this chair and feel my feet on the ground. And when I'm in a workout, like yesterday I was boxing, and instead of it being just like a full like head workout of like, oh, let me like practice my technique, I was actually in my body. I was like, I could feel my hips like, moving and shifting and, like, creating the power that I needed to, like, perform the movement. And, like, I was in a full bodied experience. And it's so beautiful.

Like, coming out of that, I was like, Ugh, I didn't just like release up a bunch of endorphins from, like, exercising. I also like had a deep spiritual connection with my body. Mhmm. Right? And was able to like be in it comfortably, securely, and feel safe in my body.

I love that. I'm very happy for you that you had that. Just to rewind though when you were saying about I felt uncomfortable maybe with your abdomen or whatever part of the body and then you chose at the time not to deal with it and then we're so good at adding more guilt and shame into it why aren't I dealing with it and then it just goes into this even stickier situation of I feel trapped. So I understand why people do feel that way and I think some well a it takes amazing people like yourselves to help and sort of tease it out but also I think it does take a little bit of courage from our parts as well but the thing is I think LGBTQ plus people are naturally a bit more brave courageous we have to be to get that first step out the door so and I think then we forget that sometimes but actually it's there inside of all of us and we we can do as Glennon Doyle says we can do tough things.

That's a mantra of mine. I like, one of my strongest mantras in my life is I am strong and I can do hard things. Like, there are so often that, like, I would be doing a workout and I would actually turn into a very negative, like, self talker where I'd be like, you're a piece of poop. Like, you should be able to do this. Like, and I was like yelling at myself, like doing a rowing workout or being on the bike.

I would like I would be critiquing myself and I would be trying to, like, yell myself to accomplish it. And I at some point, I was like, okay. This is somebody else. This is a coach that I had as a child. This is my father.

This is somebody else doing this. How would I want to show up for myself? And that's when I started saying, I am strong and I can do hard things. So I may be in that that last push and I wanna give up so badly. I'm about to throw up.

I feel like my heart's about to explode. I have so much negative talk coming up and all I do is reframe it. I am strong and I can do hard things. And I make it through. Sometimes.

Most of the time. Yeah.

Well, that that's an interesting wrinkle as well because I think one of the ways we mature in situations like that is realizing that both roots, routes in America are, but yes do I need to push through and will that feel good or actually do I need to pause and step away because that route is valid as well with no judgment or shame and being I guess mature enough to to choose the right one and just follow it through and be okay with whatever you do.

Absolutely. Do I want to continue like like for my own health and wellness not just physical but emotional mental like is this the right move for me to, like, sit with this pain?

Well, that goes back to the the practice of finding and understanding our edges. Right? So you recognize, is this once we have a clear idea of where our edges are at any one time, you can start to understand, well, am I just giving up because it's uncomfortable or am I legitimately like at that place where to push any further or to continue in this way is gonna put me at a at a mechanical disadvantage. Open me up for potential harm on whatever level. And that's why another aspect of men's work that I think is so important is that we can be really conscious about making those choices.

And then when we make a choice that is conscious in that way, it's re well, I'm not gonna I almost said it's really easy. I think it's easier to stand by because you're like, I, this is why I chose it. It isn't I'm not really sure. It's like, I I believe this is all I could hold in this moment. And so for my own safety, I stepped away.

And then you can make a different choice the next day.

Yeah. Love that.

Now this has this has been a really beautiful conversation, and I'm, like, I'm feeling really connected to you guys, and I'm really I'm feeling connected to my body and the spirit of, like, like, movement, in ways that I really, I don't think that I've felt this much joy around it. Like I've been on a little fitness journey for the last two years that's coincided with my sobriety and I've I've gone through waves of like comfort and like pushing myself through and like asking myself like why am I doing this, like exercise or this specific program. And like I don't think that I've actually sat and felt this empowered and confident in wanting to move. Mhmm. Not for other people, but for myself and for my wellness and my health.

Right? Like Yeah. I like, that to me is like I think it's just being in similar like similarities. Like, Tim has a very different background and relationship to fitness than I do. And, Matt, you have a very different relationship to fitness in your body and all that.

And it's just but we still have a commonality here Yeah. Mhmm. Of like like it's not easy all the time. Yeah. Right?

Yep. Like some people I can look at, you know, somebody at the gym and like think that it's like, oh, it's super easy for them. But like people struggle. People have all sorts of different like hidden struggles. And just like hearing us talk about them has been really supportive and empowering for me.

Well, I wanna jump in because I I do believe without knowing for sure one other thing that the three of us have in common is, at least a certain amount of privilege. And so what I wanna ask the question now is because I believe, especially in this moment in time in our world, I know that there are a lot of queer people out there that need support, need safe spaces. We want so much for them to be healthy and strong in all of the ways. And, you know, I live in Provincetown. I've I worked in New York City.

Some options for fitness can be unbelievably expensive. Even if you find the the safe nonjudgmental place, it may not be available to you. So, Matt, my question to you would be, if let's say there's someone listening and and they're and they don't have the ability to necessarily hire a trainer or go to that safe space or that safe space isn't close enough or any of those things, do you have any, gentle suggestions for someone to start their own journey like in the safety of their home or or or in their community?

Absolutely. And that's a really important point because you're right. I think especially not to harp on but social media can brush over and push more marginalized people within the marginalization to the sides at the because like, white even straight presenting gay guys are the more acceptable face of the community so get shown more and shared. This was why it was so important from for trans people trans guys to be welcome in my community from the start because God they're getting a lot of crap at the moment. So to answer your question there are more and more of these community seg spaces popping up both online and in real life.

And actually, again, I live in London, so I'd see there are there's a there are more of them, but there are free running clubs for lgbtq plus people and again maybe someone isn't ready to join a running club and I get that but more and more at least there are these free opportunities there are community based things that just allow people to come together. How does someone get started? I would say some kind of online support first of all because there's so much there's my free group and there's so many free communities out there.

Well, you have a free group. I don't I don't want to interrupt you but can you you have you have a free group for GBTQ men for fitness. Can you just talk a little bit about what that would be? So if people wanted to look for it or find it.

Oh, thank you. Absolutely. It's on because Facebook is awful, I used to have a group on there, and I still do, but it's not active. I I'm using the platform Skoole which is s k o o l, and I set up Fitter Confident Club and it's got about 500 members and it's really lovely. It's people hanging out there's at the moment I don't want to say there's no purpose to it there is a purpose there's community connection support ideas motivation enthusiasm all that good stuff.

People talking about fun things, people talking about more serious things, but it's again it's just a resource to hang out and be well, realize you're normal, realize you're weird, and all everything in between. And there's free workouts in there, free recipes, there's loads of free resources. There's a we actually have a yoga coach who does yoga twice a month for us as well so that's completely for free. So I think if you are in that position starting out you don't know where to start. I know we're all craving human connection and we we are a sociable a sociable species and we need face to face stuff in some way but the simplest quickest way is with online.

Look for a free group, come find and test them out see which ones resonate with you. There are loads of them out there And and again, if you're stuck in a tiny village in the middle of nowhere, yes, fit meeting people is gonna be tougher, of course. But, move to the city. No. I'm joking.

You can you can stay in your lovely, beautiful village. Sometimes I wish that I lived in a lovely quiet village, not in noisy stupid London. But, yeah, there are there are lovely community groups all over the Internet that are waiting for you and crying out for new members because, again when we're new we often shy and we think oh what can I bring to it? But actually you can bring your wonderful self whatever that is. Everyone has beautiful input, everyone has a role to play in these communities whether you are more of an introvert extrovert ambivert However, you want to describe it whether you are more of a listener or a contributor, but Even just strength in numbers knowing others 500 of us now like look at us.

We're strong We are We're we're real. We exist, and we're not going anywhere. And if, like, just showing up to these, listening, and seeing what you can learn because there's so many people in there doing good stuff who and my favorite expression is a rising tide lifts all boats. We rise together and what I love is when people discover yes of course being cheered on is great but cheering your friends on and seeing them succeed is just as powerful and motivating So come on into these communities. We all want to welcome as many people as possible because we're stronger together.

Beautifully said.

Absolutely. And, like, I I'm just so lit up because it's like, you know, we talked about kind of the limiting belief that pops up so frequently, I'm not good enough. Right? And like, just hearing, like, you know, the the reminder of like, I am a sparkly, wonderful person. Right?

And like, I like, just by bringing myself into a space, like, I can lift other people up just as they are lifting me up by bringing their wonderful sparkly selves. Right? And it's just like, I love I love hearing that. So, thank you. Thank you for sharing.

So, you I think I mentioned to you and maybe our listeners also know that I'm a cofounder of Helltown Fitness, a boutique fitness studio here in Provincetown. And part of our mission is to serve our whole community to be a safe, nonjudgmental place for for health and fitness. And our workouts are all, modifiable and, you know, we go we work hard to make sure that people are taken care of. But you seem to have a lot of experience and and what I have what I have witnessed is that we still end up mainly getting the fitness enthusiast as our primary primary customer. So we've said a few things.

We've talked about our mission statement and but do you have any suggestions or or insights that might be helpful on how I can or how anyone could let the rest of our LGBTQIA2S plus community know that this is a safe place if for if they want it.

It's funny you say that because I've I hadn't I I have my best ideas when I'm sort of waking up a bit like, I wake up at 5AM and doze and then go back to sleep. And in that sort of weird twilight, I often have my best ideas or I wake up and write them down and go, what the hell was that? But I had what I think is a really good idea, and I'm gonna start this is this is a world first premier. I want to create an online training group for 50 plus GBT group class guys who've never worked out And I wanna make it really as affordable as possible and reach as many people and bring a big group of guys together and normalize getting started in your fifties or your sixties or your seventies or I guess all your forties. But I think I'm looking at well a my the average age of my clients is 48 so I actually generally work with older guys but actually from what I've seen people 40 have got into fitness in some regard in some way it's the people who've in that sort of 50 who feel like they've been left behind because they weren't necessarily they were they certainly weren't on online growing up and we weren't online growing up but they've it's maybe not as in inverted commas sexier generation it but it's like they're valid and they're out there and I do speak to them fairly regularly so actually some kind of unique specific resource for people who've never worked out before is something I'm going to create hopefully by in the next couple of months because This is the amazing thing.

I was looking at stats in The UK about how many people work out 52% of people in The UK have never done any exercise More than half which there's a huge market now of people who I'm sure would love to in some way. Okay. I know some people are resolutely against exercise, and that's okay. But if there's even a tiny spark in you that you think, oh maybe I could dot dot dot I'm gonna seize that and I'm gonna offer you and open that door and say let's do this together because I got into fitness late I didn't really get into fitness till my late 20s Whereas I I guess the convention is all you started school and you just know what you're doing. No.

I'm like flailing around for like thirty years not knowing what to do and I want to take away the stigma of people who feel bad or weird or guilty that they haven't done anything yet. Life is hard. Jobs are hard. We have things to juggle. The world outside our door gives us ongoing existential angst.

But fitness can help with a bit of that, and you don't need to beat yourself up that you haven't done anything yet. Mhmm. There are and even if you don't work with me, don't worry. There's, again, more and more options out there. And, for example, gyms, I've seen some gyms do, like 50 plus classes obviously they're not they won't necessarily be lgbtq plus classes but again that that normalization of we're in this together that that any kind of community can make someone feel a bit normal and a bit okay to get going.

So like reaching out to those people is is gonna be a big part of what I do this year.

Beautiful. Beautifully said. Yeah. I think it's important when we when we think about fitness that we explain all of the different benefits that that can come from it. So it isn't wrong if a person wants to get into fitness because they want to create a particular aesthetic with their body.

But I work with a lot of clients where the the aim is to have less day to day pain and more and more ease in their the activities that they love. That is super motivating when you're like, oh, I actually I I told this story last night, but I had this, friend. I was working with him in the gym. He had low back pain. I showed him a very simple breath exercise, and he went and did it and came back ten minutes later.

His, like, eyes lit up because he was like, oh, that tension that I've had for the last four years is has subsided some. And it's it's that moment to be like, right. It like, you're not because he I I think this man is in his seventies. It's like, you're not trying to be a 20 year old bodybuilder that isn't, like but now you can walk down the hallway and out of this gym with less pain and have that go through the rest of your day. Like, that is magic to me.

That that is, like, that is the magic.

Absolutely. And and just giving something so accessible, approachable, like, giving that little taste to, like, say, it doesn't have you don't have to go from from zero to 60. Like, bit by bit, right, can really help and go such a long way. Just like, you know, getting those little tastes, those little taste of, like, you know, a relief or that that little taste of, like, oh, an adrenaline rush from, like, moving my body in a certain way and, like, not overdoing it either. And so, like, you know, I think about, like, a program for people that are 50 or, like, or Helltown.

It's like, how do you bring people in and, like, give them that taste to say, like, okay, I've gotten a little taste of the nectar and I like it, it. Right? Without having to be like, oh, I got it and it was too much. Now I'm gonna back off. Right?

Like, there could be a shock and, like, that can come from that that can trigger like, we talked about edges earlier. Right? Like, it can, like, put put somebody past that edge. So, like, how do we create more approachable programming than, you know, welcomes people in?

I always say, you know, when people come to Helltown for the first time, I recommend that they grab lightweights, and I and I say to them, I'm like, listen. I would much rather you leave your workout today thinking or feeling like you could go harder next time than for you to leave here feeling like you've just been, like, bulldozed. And they we there's usually, like, a little bit of, like, giggling around that. I'm like, yeah. Like, I'd rather you say let's come back and go heavier or go harder or go faster than for you to be like that was way too much.

And that's that's something one thing that has worked for me because, it isn't a competition. I'm not I'm not keeping track, you know, of it doesn't matter to me which weight you use. It matters to me, that I help you have a safe and effective experience. That's what matters to me.

Yeah. Making it safe and giving alternatives and options is is absolutely key. And again really espousing that there isn't a one size fits all solution. So actually in fact 40% of my clients do home workouts very happily and effectively so you never need to step foot in the gym if you don't want to if you really do it well and also it's not always just because of trauma or just not lying it there sometimes it's just not convenient so making sure people realize there are other paths forward is absolutely crucial. In reassuring people that it it doesn't have to be done how you think it has to be done.

Mhmm. In spite of 20 year old, influencers on TikTok telling us we're not working hard enough. They can get in the bin. Yeah. I mean, change

is hard. Like, period. Hard. Like, full stop. Change is hard.

And if you're expecting to change radically overnight, it's gonna be even harder. So, like, how can you small baby step into it? So, like, a home workout. Like, if if I think that the only way that I can, like, work out is that I have to go to the gym, I will come up with every excuse not to go to the gym. Oh, it's too cold outside.

Oh, I, like, my there's something wrong with my car. Oh, my dog needs a walk. Oh, I have a in forty five minutes. I can't do it. Like, all these things, I'll come up with any excuse not to do it.

But if I can say, like, oh, you know what? I got my yoga mat out. I could, like, go over there and, like, flow for ten minutes. Right? I can move my body.

It doesn't have to be this this crazy big thing. Like, I could just, like, move for a little bit. Right? And, like, that's that's encouraging. That's a little bit of encouragement where it's like, okay.

I did that. And then tomorrow, it's like, okay. Well, maybe I'll go to the maybe I will go to the gym. Maybe I will push myself out the door a little bit because now I've got a little little taste.

Well, it feels to me like now more than ever I don't I I said that last night too. Like, not now more than ever. Now now, it is especially important for as many people in our queer community to feel to feel strong, to feel healthy, and to feel confident, in themselves because, lots of stuff has already come and I think lots more stuff is coming. This we are recording this episode, what, one or two days after an executive order basically erases trans people in in the eyes of the government or the or the White House administration. And I know that that has a ripple effect.

It has an impact on our hearts and our energies. So any way in which we can engage in mindful self care, whether it's through fitness, through yoga, through embodiment practice, through meditation, like what anything that that works and resonates, I hope that our community has available to them in some some way because we are gonna need to be strong individually and we are gonna need to be strong for each other. And which is why I'm hoping to, when I can and, you know, have the capacity, to be a source of support in pursuit of this for others when they need it because it may be it may be a long four years.

Yeah and the one thing I'm recommending everyone do is to just switch off the the 24 rolling news cycle that yes and it's not set not to say don't be politically aware or active or even aware of news and things but at the moment it's just it feels unrelenting and in fact so yesterday I was in I do some corporate work sometimes which allows me to reach more people all at once, which is great. So it was a really big company that had an lgbtq plus ERG employee resource group within IX. It was that big and did a really lovely training session with them, and then went actually just with the guy, my contact, to where he worked And they had maybe this floor and then they had four floors of this big building and the floor that I went to, maybe 50 people on there working. But on every wall was a giant TV screen with rolling news headlines, like obviously on silent but all with subtitles as well and it was things like awful fire in Turkey kills sixty six people awful thing happens here awful things happen here and just even if they're not consciously looking at it it's going in and it's going to make you feel like the world is ending right now So taking yourself out of that is really powerful and I know it could be so hard to like it's so addictively awful sometimes but leaving that and I guess the other thing to do with that is on a smaller level if you on Instagram have a feed that makes you feel crap you haven't in your power to change what you see if you unfollow all the people who make you feel inferior and start following lasagna recipes and cats

Garfield. Yes, please. Yes. I I wanna I wanna dedicated Instagram feed that is just Garfield. That is, like, that is cats and lasagnas.

That's it.

And normal. Don't forget normal. Yeah. Like, you have it in your power to have a nicer experience when you open Instagram, and people forget that. They go, oh, it's the algorithm.

No. You've trained the algorithm. Like, that's on you. You are in in charge of that at least 90%. Again, obviously, it knows you, but it will serve you some things, but you can make your online experience nicer.

Look. I quit, and deactivated my ex account as well because oh, no. I don't even like calling that my Twitter account because because obvious reasons. You you don't have to be a slave to what's on your phone.

This is a great again, we're key coming back to this idea of understanding your edges, and social media can absolutely be that, and we can make conscious choices about what it is I'm wanting to invite into my experience and

Yeah.

Letting that be creating and curating things that are inspirational or exciting. I mean, a lot of my Instagram is point of view roller coaster videos and a lot

truly. I love that.

And a lot of like dance and and things like that. So, as we sort of near the end of what I think has been a really fruitful, fun, and exploratory conversation. I'm just curious, is there anything else, from your experience that maybe we didn't cover that you that you just feel like we we need to say or or hear?

Just that so to anyone listening, anything you want to achieve is possible and anything you want to achieve and be and do is is valid. There is there is no right or wrong way. There's just you testing your edges, baby stepping, finding your way forward in a confusing chaotic messy world that does make it tough for us and we do have things we have to overcome and like I said don't be afraid of doing the work yourself however that looks because the freedom this might almost sound like a cliche but I heard it last year and I loved it that the freedom that we want is in the work that we're avoiding. So actually and we I know we can't always lean into, like, the uncomfortable things because that would be too stressful. But, like, again, test those edges of where we find things uncomfortable, of what's what what's challenging us and where we're stopping ourselves because maybe, just maybe, there's a bit more freedom.

There's a bit more joy. There are new friends on the other side of that and fitness isn't a universal panacea, but it's a great place to start and it helps you be in your body and remember that Like you have this amazing we have this amazing vessel or whatever it is that we're in for sixty seventy eighty ninety years The you if you just keep fighting it It's always going to be a struggle but the more and the quicker you can learn to love it and accept it the more you can just, I don't know, go hang binding with Lindsay Lohan and just do whatever whatever floats your boat. Fun stuff.

I forgot that schedule for next week. How did you know how'd you get my calendar?

I'm I'm the session afterwards. Because if it's not fun, why are we doing it? Like, there is fun to be had. Whatever we think of how much the world is on fire. And that doesn't mean we can't be politically active and help people out and do good stuff.

But but fun is what for for my mind, fun is the most important thing we can make happen because that also inspires other people to have more fun and that makes them happier and that positive energy just keeps rippling out.

Well, I've said this a lot in in yoga and in embodiment. I think these are places where we can, in a safe container, lean into some of that discomfort to to to have a better understanding of our edges and and and to do that in safe environments like the ones that we're discussing are so important. But I I remind people, I'm like, we're also allowed to have fun. We're allowed to smile. We're allowed to do something that makes us feel sexy or cool or like the superhero or whatever.

And I will often invite people into that because I'm like, why are we all so serious all the time? There are times for seriousness. And there's also, I I believe in our current culture, plenty of opportunity to be to be serious. I'm like, so why don't we take a little opportunity to be playful, silly, fun, you know, bouncy, you know, sparkly, sparkly like unicorns. Let's do it, you know.

And, and I I think it's such an important component to the work. Yes. Sometimes we have to figure out where our comfort level lies. Sometimes we have to feel cool. Sometimes we have to feel strong.

We have to feel fun. We have to, you know, whatever. I sometimes like to pretend that I'm a superhero. I sometimes when I work out, like to pretend that I'm in the Olympics. Going for the gold.

It's like it makes it fun for me. So like that may not work for everyone. But I'm like, yeah. So right now I'm on my erg, but in my head I'm on a body of water and I'm like inching this close, gold or silver, gold or silver. Yeah.

Yeah. And I I think that's the power of the imagination and the power of playfulness of, like like like, fitness doesn't have to be serious. It can be very playful. Like, yesterday when I was boxing, like, I was like, I'm a lion. I'm a tiger.

I am, like, I am here, like, in between my rest rounds. Like, I was, like, just, like, pacing around in a circle, and I was just, like, imagining myself as this, like, feline creature. And then as soon as the bell hit, I was like, okay. We're ready. Right?

So it's like, you can be playful. You can be the Olympian. You can be whatever it might be that you want. Like, really just use your imagination to play and have so much fun. So,

yeah. You weren't you weren't aligned. You were Garfield. He's back.

I was, like, I was getting my lasagna that day. Matt, Tim, this has been a really beautiful, fulfilling conversation for me personally, and I I I wanna just thank you both for being so open and honest about your own experiences and and sharing your passions with the world. And, like, you're invigorating me. Right? And I I hope that this conversation invigorates others to, be active in whatever way works for them, to be playful in their activities if it's helpful to them, to bring their sparkle, to bring their magic into their community spaces, to lift other people up as they do it, as you two have lifted myself and others up with your, you know, sparkle and wonderfulness.

So, with that, I'm feeling very, very complete. How about you guys?

I feel complete.

Yeah. I this finding and connecting with people such as yourselves just is such a joy and knowing that we get to share this joy and energy with other people is 10 times the joy as well. So thank you for the opportunity. I'm incredibly grateful.

Tim, will you take us out?

Absolutely. Let's close our eyes and take a deep inhale through the nose and gently exhale through the mouth. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for this space that we shared for the insights, the exploration, the awarenesses that were brought. And as we move away from this discussion, I wish everyone safety, community, playfulness, health, love, and with these words our container is open but not broken. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Thank you so much for joining us here in the circle. If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queer men's embodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love.

And with these words, our container is open but not broken.