Holding Space, Creating Space, and Sacred Drala

Welcome to The Circle. A queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to the circle. In this episode, we expand on the concept of presence by exploring holding space and creating space in men's work. We'll also introduce the idea of sacred Drala, the energetic force in an environment that brings awareness, openness, and a sense of the sacred. We'll discuss how men can hold space for themselves and others and how creating intentional environments deepens connection, healing, and growth.

Tim, are you ready to get started?

I am.

Alright. So a couple episodes ago, we talked about presence and how being fully present in the the world really helps to ground men and to help them connect more deeply. So now I want to transition and start to talk and explain about what it means to hold space. Can you help our listeners understand that and how it relates to presence?

I hope I can. My understanding of holding space is creating an environment into which someone else can feel held in whatever ways they need to feel held. Whether that is I just need to not be alone. I need to be heard. I need to be seen. I need someone to help me. It can look like a lot of different things. And the holding of space is the practice of understanding what that person is needing, understanding your capacity at any one moment, and then choosing to place your presence in such a way that that person can then step into that space that you've created, in whatever way they need.

Yeah. And to be on that receiving end of somebody holding space when somebody's presence is wrapped around you, it feels so good. Right? Like, it feels incredible to be able to trust and fall into somebody else's, you know, like, awareness that they've got you. That, like, I can talk about what's on my heart and know that, like, that person is just gonna sit there and either witness me or hold me in some way that allows me to go deeper through my own experience of what I'm feeling in that moment.

Have you ever done this exercise? You can do it with a person. Sometimes you can do it just in a journal, a piece of paper, a letter where you are in the middle of a moment and you just need to have a really uncensored, probably impolite and inappropriate, release. Right? And and then when you're done, you're, like, you kinda get it all out, sort of like screaming a little bit or like pounding a pillow and you kinda get it all out and you're like, okay.

Now I can start to make some choices about how I wanna be. That to me feels like kind of an example of the value of someone holding space. To to be that I'm gonna allow you to have an experience that you need to have and allow you to be witnessed in ways you might need to be witnessed. And I'm gonna have an understanding of its purpose so that when this is complete, value and healing have been possible. So when you think about the, like the letter, you're like, you never send the letter.

You never you never tell the person all the bad words or you just get it out. You needed a safe space. I've done this. I needed a safe space to be like, blah. And once I was able to release that in a safe space, okay, well now I feel a little clearer and I can start to make other decisions that are probably more congruent with my purpose and mission and intention because I'm less triggered emotionally.

And on the topic of space, right, like, an environment, that letter can be that environment. Mhmm. You talked about punching pillows or, like, getting a frustration out in a certain way or just, like, being with somebody. Like, all those are environments and spaces. And so now I'm wondering, like, how does creating space differ from holding space? And what does it take to create an environment that supports, you know, letting go or or healing?

Well, I would think that holding space because creating space can be a few things. I would think that holding space is bringing your presence into whatever space you've created for the need that is necessary. So the creating space then to me is the part of that process where you recognize what is what is needed and what is going to happen. So in the punching the pillow example, you might you might need to listen. I you're not gonna be able to scream in my apartment right now because my child is asleep or my, you know, partner is on a meeting or, you know, you you take in the information. You're like, we can do this at this time in this location, you know. And then you're like, so now we're gonna put some things together so that the space is created so that the thing that needs to happen can happen. Sometimes it's really not that hard. Sometimes I just need to have a conversation with you. Okay. That could probably happen almost anywhere. But the idea of, like, do we have a little bit of time? Do we have a location to do it? Do we both have a shared understanding? Right. I think that's the creation of the space.

Yeah. Setting a or creating a container that has some sort of boundary, whether that's time, physical. Right? Like, there's a couple of different things when it comes to actually creating that space. It doesn't necessarily need to be, like, you know, a physical room, like you're saying, could be like, I just need to talk to this friend, and I've got 10 minutes to do so.

Right? Can you hold space for me? And in doing so, we're now creating space, creating a container For the next 10 minutes to do that.

Yeah. You can create time containers, space containers, location containers. Absolutely. And being clear about what is needed, I think is a big part of creating and then holding space. So because there are moments when, no matter how badly I might wanna support someone, I might not have the emotional bandwidth to have someone be really, raw and unedited if I'm if I'm working in my own if I'm working through my own emotional stuff.

I might not be able to adequately hold space. I have to have awareness of that too. And and maybe and that's part of the creating the space. Hey. I'm not gonna be able to do this for you today. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to do it tomorrow. Can we do it tomorrow? That's the creation of the space, but that's bringing your presence, into this equation, which is recognizing how I'm doing and trying to recognize how you're doing and then deciding can they can they meet in this way.

And what I'm hearing is that there are almost 2 different environments to consider when creating space. There's the internal environment and then the external environment. So is my internal environment conducive to being able to hold space? And what do I need to then do if it is not to, like tune it up a little bit more to be able to do that. And the same thing can be true of physical spaces.

And you have to decide, like, do I want to? So there's that too. There's because part of creating space and holding space is choosing to consciously place your energy, your consciousness, your awareness. So part of that might be, oh, well, here's this friend who frequently comes at me sort of, you know, sometimes they say like trauma dumping or, you know, just lays all this stuff at me. It's not serving me. There's no reciprocity. It's it becomes a drain. And sometimes it's about I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do that anymore. It's not it's not mutually beneficial. It isn't, conscious of of my boundaries, autonomy, or energy.

I see you're gonna have to create an within your own environment, a boundary around it as well. Right? So like, if, you know, we're talking about, understanding what you're you have the capacity for and what is beneficial for you. Right? And and how you can hold and create space for others.

Right? Sometimes that requires creating a boundary around the environment, whether that's your internal or the external environment.

Totally. And I have a friend, someone that I like very much, but who who will take as much as they can get. And so what I have learned is I have to be very upfront about when I can stay and when I can't. And so there's something about, hey. Can I chat with you? Yeah.

I have 2 minutes. I have 4 minutes, especially if, you know, if we haven't, like, planned it. This is what I can give. I have to be really clear about that because as soon as it is violated, it feels like an energetic drain, and that doesn't serve anyone either. So this this is why presence is such an important component in creating spaces and holding space because I have to have an awareness of me and an awareness of my environment and the people in it.

And so in this example, it's like, well, I have to be aware of how I'm feeling, what my energetic stores are, what my life circumstances. I have to I have to feel into where this other person is and what their tendencies tend to be, and then I have to make some decisions from the place. So I have to be present to decide what it is I can hold.

And so now I wanna introduce a new concept for our listeners, and that is of sacred drala.

Mhmm.

And wanting to understand how drala what drala is and how it contributes to the energetic quality and the energetic capacity. Because you were just talking about the capacity of, like, how much energy you can hold in a given moment. Right? So how does what is drala and how does it contribute to that?

So drala, as I've come to understand it, is this recognition of an inherent wisdom in the nature and world around us. And it is often perceived through the senses and in the context of men's work as I've come to understand it, it is really applied to the creation of physical space. This is often the altar that we'll work with, the practice space that we'll work with, and it's about infusing a space with intentionality, with specificity, all with the, the intention of elevating the energy of that space. And if anyone listening has ever had the experience, you walk into a sacred temple, you walk into, you know, a practice space, you walk into, you know, even you walk into a library. Right?

And you and you immediately like, oh, it's it's it's quiet in here. It's like there's an agreement about, like, what the space is and how it is utilized.

You're picking up on something as soon as you enter in.

Yeah. There's an energy to it. And so so drala in in this sense is a conscious creation of space such that it elevates the energy so that the work being done in that space feels safe, held, and also elevated.

Interesting. And I'm curious, like, could this also be because we talked about space being both internal and external. Could drala also be applied to ourselves internally to the space within ourselves?

Oh, absolutely. A drala is a principle that can be applied, I think, to every aspect of our life. So, like if I think about, well, what I wear when I'm doing certain things, you know, how I how I behave, you know, if I'm an artist, how do I treat my instruments with how much care? And, I can do that with how am I how am I choosing my words? How am I, choosing my manner of engagement with a person? How do I how how do I choose to present myself in particular ways? So, like, imagine going on a first date with someone to a fancy restaurant and they come in with, like, dirty gardening clothes. That isn't that isn't necessarily wrong or bad, but it's sending an an energetic message about, you know, their level of care and and their priorities and, you know, all this. And I think part of the drala principle is us picking up on those signals, that wisdom, that wisdom that's in the natural environment around us.

Right. So that's a pretty, gross example. Not like not like gross as an ew example, but, like, you've talked about the the gross all the way up to the subtle bodies.

Mhmm.

Right? So, like, that's a very, like, physical gross example. There's also examples of, like, subtleties of, like, somebody bringing in, an energy that we're picking up on that could be, like, maybe they're self defeated. Maybe they are lacking some confidence. Right? And, like, the ability for us to, like, pick up on that similarly to when we enter in a sacred space. Right? There's, yes, there's the physical component of it, but there's also subtleties as soon as you enter in.

So when people come to the circle here in Provincetown, something that will frequently happen is they will be walking down Commercial Street from wherever they just came, and they'll walk in. And in the space, you know, that we immediately walk upstairs to the second floor. And the stairs are sort of loud, but they've also come out of this commercial street environment and they'll often be talking really loudly and kind of fast, you know. And, and I what I do now, especially when I send some of the men in and they're already seated, I stand there at the doorway, and when they come in, no matter how loudly they're talking, I respond to them in a slow, quiet voice immediately, indicating, like, how we are gonna how we're gonna shift, what what the shift is. Doing it energetically. If I met them with a allowed fast talking energy, then I would be inviting more of that. And instead, it's like this understanding the principle to support the environment I'm creating and all the people coming into it. You know, it's it's supporting the person who's speaking loudly too. Like, okay, now we're gonna now we're gonna shift into something else. And like helping that that shift.

Right? The environment, both your physical personal environment and how you're engaging, plus the physical environment around even just the leading up to that staircase. As soon as you get to that landing, there is a an environment shift as well, like, because there aren't windows. Right? So I feel like I've really, like, dropped things behind me. So it's like there's multiple layers going on here that that really start to resonate with me and help to, like, recalibrate my own vibrations as I'm as I'm entering into that space.

So if our listeners don't know, I'm a co founder of a fitness studio here in town called Helltown Fitness, and we operate out of the Crown and Anchor and our equipment is in this closet. You've seen the closet. And I was speaking to some of the coaches and encouraging them to arrange neatly the kettlebells when people put them back. Because we ask people to put them back according to the size and the color of the tape around the horns, but, and people do a good job, but they're not meticulous. But what I've noticed is that, you know, at the end of class, we leave and then the crown staff uses that closet for what they need.

I've noticed that when we when our bells are scattered and sort of haphazard, the way that the the employees of the crown treat it is different. Like, there there's, a greater likelihood that they're gonna, like, put a box on top of the bells or, you know, throw something on top of the bells. And when they are neatly organized, it is less likely or it has been less frequent that they've done that. I'm like, oh, because I think it's

There's a subtle signal.

There there is a subtle energy saying like, oh, care was put in place here. Meticulousness was placed here. And so this is something to to consider. And that to me has always been really powerful because, you know, when we think about ritual and ceremony and basically anything in our lives, it's really only important because we say so. And I think the drala principle is one where, well, we're making things important because we say so. Yeah. We say so with our actions, our deeds, our conscious placement.

Right through devotional effort, devotional practice, and attention, we are taking the mundane and making it sacred or making it special and helping it to vibrate at a different frequency that is then picked up on by those that are either interacting with ourselves or within our space.

So clearly the idea of creating space and holding space can be immensely valuable for people. I have experienced it valuable both as the space holder and as the person being held. And I think our world would be a better place if we were all more skilled at this ability to consciously hold space, know when we can't, and have that have that engagement. And it made me wonder about the queer experience and specifically the young queer experience and what seems to me like a lack of opportunity to to be held in someone's space. To me, it has felt like or when when I was young, I would be worthy of their space only if I edited parts of who I was in order to do it. And so I'm curious what you think about, how holding space for queer people can be can be powerful or healing and if you think there has been a lack of that.

And when I think going back to somebody, holding space for me, what do I feel? I feel safe. I feel safe to be myself. I don't have to edit. I can just, like, reveal what it is that is true for me in that moment. And so when I think about when I was growing up too, like, I I didn't have, queer examples outside of maybe, you know, the character or 2 on television, but nobody in my immediate life. And so I too was constantly held in these spaces where I wasn't safe to be myself, to reveal my authenticity. And, I I think that it's super important to figure out ways in which we can create more spaces for queer people to be able to, identify and feel into their authenticity. And I think about places like Provincetown, where we have a lot of different events going on throughout the the summer and throughout the the year. But one of the most important ones for me is actually family week because it creates space for these families that are of queer identifying, whether that is, lesbian moms, gay dads, or transgender mixes, you know, or the kids are a little, queer themselves.

And I think that, like, having a place where people can come and, like, be in like minded, presence really, allows them to reveal more about themselves. And we also see it too, like, you know, for a long time, bars have been our queer spaces. Right? Some place that we can go and be surrounded by others and being feeling like we can actually reveal ourselves. But many of those places are fading. We look at cities like Boston, nearby us, that used to have many gay bars, and now I think that it has maybe 4 or 5. Mhmm. And so those those spaces are really dwindling. And so I think through, like, hey. Like, even outside of the bar scenes, like, what what are the some of the places and spaces that we we can create for our our brothers, sisters, and, you know

So there's this thing that I saw on Instagram that I really liked. Anything of worth value is on Instagram. Right?

Is Instagram a safe space?

That's a that's a totally other episode. But it said the opposite of anxiety isn't calm. It's trust or safety. And I really feel like safe spaces, a holding space is that. And so for queer people, a place where you can trust or feel safe to be exactly who you are can be unbelievably healing, and I think a lot of us did not have that experience. And so it's interesting because then you bring up, some of the some of the places that we would go, and we would go to gay bars, queer bars. But there was a safety in those spaces, certainly. But it isn't the same thing then as, like, holding space for, like, our full authenticity, our sort of, the parts of us that aren't always pretty, the parts of us that are raw or unedited, parts of us that need a little working. Like, we're we're like rough drafting or white boarding in the moment. And I think in the men's workspace, and this is why I think it's important or powerful for queer men, creating spaces where like, oh, you can have that. You can have that process without, any repercussions. Because, you know, in the in the gay male space, there's often a lot of pressure on how do you look? Is it is it is that butch enough? You know, is it is it sexy enough? You know, and no matter how much you buy into those ideas, you can feel them. They're palpable in in our community. And that might be a hindrance to someone allowing themselves to really open up and be raw and potentially ugly, in service of their healing. If they're afraid, they're going to be judged or ridiculed or

not accepted.

Not accepted in some way. And so these spaces, men's workspaces and queer men's workspaces, are that opportunity to be like, you can cry with me. And I'm not I'm not gonna take anything away from that except the knowing that I held space for you and that one day you'll probably need to hold space for me doing a similar thing. That's that's the beauty of these spaces in my opinion is this shared experience. Sometimes I'm holding you. Sometimes you're holding me. And when we go back to and we're all just having this human experience, And men might need this more than ever because I think there was a a storyline that we shouldn't need help. We shouldn't need this sort of thing, but the truth is we do. Everyone does.

Absolutely. And I I wanna share a little personal anecdote about how at one point in my life, the gay bars were my safe space. Right? They were the place that I could go and express myself and I could, you know, wear I could go out in my version of drag. I could be in heels. I could be, you know, I could play dress up for a little bit. I could go out, have a good time. But with that also came a lot of alcohol and a lot of drinking and a lot of drugging and maybe socializing with folks that weren't the best for my mental health. And so when I got sober, the bars no longer were a safe space for me, and they became a place that I had a really hard time going to and connecting with people. And around the time that I was realizing this was the time that I started coming to the men's circle in Provincetown

And realizing that, like, oh, like, the bars aren't the only space that I can find, like, queer brothers to connect with. And in this version, in this part of my life, like, that this this type of work is where I needed to to be, where I felt the the most safe. I felt the most that I belonged. You know, again, it used to it used to be the bars. I could go in and, like, you know, say hi to 20 people in Kiki and do my fruit loop.

Right? And, like, clack, clack, clack around, and I had so much fun and with a cigarette in my mouth and 3 drinks in one hand. Mhmm. You know, like but that was no longer my truth, and I needed to find a space that allowed me to, you know, feel safe again and be myself.

Well, you're sharing a story about your own personal sobriety, which I really appreciate. Thank you for bringing that. And I think you're highlighting the need for alternative spaces that aren't a bar necessarily or a club or a party. And obviously, what I'm hearing you say is that for you, the bar space is really transformed because of this personal choice in your life. I feel like I've also observed men in our in our community who are not sober, who will still want to go to the bar, but need this too.

Like creating balance in anything to be like it can't be that all the time. It can't always be this one thing. Right? Like cross training at the gym. You know, like, oh, it's like sometimes you're lifting heavy, sometimes you're doing cardio, sometimes you're doing mobility work, you know, maybe you take Pilates or yoga, that kind of thing.

I think this these spaces in this podcast is an attempt to create a space that where we can hold space for each other and honor a different part of our experience. So this doesn't mean we don't want that other part. Some of us don't want. You just said you no longer want, like, the bar portion of it. But but that we do have this too because it has felt to me, you know, when I was when I was younger, the only place I knew where to go to find queer people

Was the bar?

Was the bar. It was the only it was the only place that I knew. Obviously, I moved to New York City and then they had the the gay and lesbian center, I think, on 13th Street. But even still, that was, it didn't feel like a it didn't feel like a a place I could go. Felt like they had classes and stuff. I I needed to learn more about it, you know. The bars were the place. And now so if anyone's wanting an alternative, it's like, well, then we have to create them. Mhmm. And so the circle is definitely in part that. Although I would say it's important for all the listeners to know that the the men's embodiment circle and the the two circles that we have in Provincetown right now, they are not specifically queer. So all men are welcome to these to these circles, and the only criteria is that a person identify in some part as a man and wanna work on that part of themselves. So that allows for all men.

They just so happen to be in the queerest little town Right. In in America.

Right. So inadvertently, I think it's possible that I have, like, the longest running queer circle maybe maybe in the country, by virtue of the fact that The demographic. The people who are coming. Yeah. There have been there have been non queer people in the space, but not many.

It's Provincetown.

Mhmm. Yeah. Right. This is this is our safe space. This is why so many people love this town and and why it does bring out so much in people is because it kinda gives you that permission to to show up as you are. And that's what a men's circle does. It gives you permission to show up as you are and to reveal as much as you're willing to reveal with no pressure and no expectation. It's just like, come and practice.

Right. And I think when we think about our community, there's no there's no bar bashing going on right now. There's no party bashing going on right now, but it is tough to go to a bar or to a party if you are in the depths, like, of heavy emotion and and then feel like I can, like, be my authentic self. And I think this is why then people were like, oh, well, I will drink or use drugs because I'm like, well, I don't really have a space to be this sort of, like, raw, hurting, sad, scared, whatever the thing is, I have to kinda put on put on a happy face.

Right. Because when you go we talked in the beginning of this episode about, like, sometimes you go and you're, like, you're feeling something on your heart and you try to express it, reveal it to somebody and it's met with complete lack of holding space. It's, like, redirecting. It's, like, oh, it's okay or, like, sweetie, you think you have it bad? Right?

And then all of a sudden, like, you're invalidated. Mhmm. And so it's like, okay. Well, I guess since I'm here

Well, and so that's why in the circle, I feel I feel like I've experienced so frequently this sense of surprised relief, and also sometimes delight when when the men in that space get to be fully authentic and express something that you probably wouldn't express almost anywhere, but certainly not at a bar if you're trying to look sexy, then then expressing some of these emotions might not feel welcome or safe there. And Doesn't have to be sexy. It could be you're just trying to be cool. You're just trying to fit in. Yeah. Right? You're just you're putting out all of these things to try to, like, be accepted by people rather than just showing up as who you are. And, like, that's part of what I love about circle. Remember the first couple of circles that I came to, I was like, given, like, having that permission and feeling that safety that I could get loud. I could take up space, I could move erratically, I could just feel into my body and not have to, like, you know the only thing I think of is, like, sometimes on the dance floor, I would be so self conscious because, like, oh, like am I dancing a certain way, am I dancing like a top, am I dancing like a bottom, like how am I signaling to people, right? And I would be so in my head that I would be like, well, I don't want to dance anymore. Versus like at the circle, like we don't necessarily like do dancing practices, but we do a lot of movement practices that are just about expression. And, like, the self consciousness fades away. And I

Well, that's the that's the the the aim, and I would like to jump in and say, dancing practice. My teacher who is not a queer person, but he he will sometimes lead dancing practices, and he describes them as some of the most advanced. And what's interesting is, you know, for queer men, dancing is such a big part of our experience. And what I mean by that is, we go to a lot of dances. Oh, there's a tea dance or there's, like, this, you know, boat dance or, you know, this dance here or this dance here. But then when when it comes to, can I allow myself authentic expression through dance, people get super self conscious and they shut themselves down. I think in part because they haven't allowed themselves the space to even practice that and then to trust their own sensations to say, like, well, what's what's more important? How I look or how I feel? And so when I lead the circle, when I lead most circles, but specifically the circle here in Provincetown, I never I try not to bring in the word dance because as soon as I do, I see men fly up into their head and they they're like, oh, that's supposed to be a thing. And there's also, like, probably a supposed to around if I should be doing it at all.

Oh, I've gotta be on the beat. I've gotta have this move. I've gotta, like, you've gotta be able to, like, do a a cha cha. Right? Like, all these things.

But also go go farther, which is some people are gonna have that thinking. Like, am I gonna do it right? Should it be in this structure? Should it be a thing? And then some people are are are confronted with, well, men aren't supposed to dance. This isn't what I'm supposed to be doing. And and, you know, in the embodiment work, it's an opportunity to express and to connect to all the different ways in which we are capable of expressing an expression. And and and culture has shut that off for many of us. So when I bring people into dance like practices, I'm almost always not saying that and inviting them through diff other ways so that ultimately, it's a can you express yourself with breath, with sound, with movement, and allow yourself to feel what that is outside of this construct of how it's supposed to be and if you're supposed to be doing it. I mean, a lot of men's work I think is on deprogramming this idea that there are things we should and shouldn't do.

That's not a moral question. Right? We you know, it's am I allowed to have full access to my full authentic expression? And then I think our culture says, well, if it looks like this, no. You know?

And as a former professional dancer, I became very acquainted with this idea that I was doing something I should not be doing. That that that's not what boys do. And yet I was doing it.

And doing it professionally and very well.

Yeah. But that took that took a lot of, there were moments when I'm like, maybe I shouldn't, You know, maybe it's just too dangerous. At some point, I was able to, like, enter into, like, the real dance world where queerness is not, typically an issue, and it did feel like a safe space. But the interim when I was in high school, making my way, it was it felt very dangerous. I had to be very mindful about how I talked about it when I did it.

Right. Because the the spaces in which you were doing them weren't or didn't have the the structure residence that allowed you to bring 100% of yourself. They weren't the they weren't created spaces to create safety for you. They were created spaces for other people.

Yeah. This is making me think about the the space that theater, in general, created for me, theater and dance. And I think, in general, it created a safe space. But even in that, I remember getting the lesson of, you know, you you have to you have to butch it up in this way or you're never gonna get that role or you have to, you know so there were still even in those places, sometimes a a like a lack of, like, a lack of safety or trust. Also, I think it's important, you know, when I was a little kid, I have the story. I was a little kid. I was at my neighbor's house and we were outside playing. And I I don't know. I was, like, somewhere between 6 8 years old. And I was I was screaming excitedly. Like, we were out playing. I don't know what we were doing, but I you know? And I remember the mom screamed throughout the kitchen, like, who's out there screaming like a girl? And, you know, I was a young boy, so my head you know, you pick up the phone and people think it's a woman because your voice hasn't, you know, dropped. And, but it's like, well, what if there was a space for me to understand, like, like, the whole breadth of excitement? And then, like, would I have would I have settled into something else if I had if I had had that? Because what happened was I got a little excited then it got immediately shut down. So I'm like, okay. Well, now I don't think I really have an understanding of how I how I express that. There was no one holding space for me to allow me to explore the wholeness of that experience. And so this idea of men's work and men's circles creating these spaces so we can step in. But what does it feel like when I'm holding my rage? Because when I don't get a chance to practice that, it usually comes out sideways, directed in ways that is not that will not benefit me or or my community, the world around me. Certainly not the the person it is directed at. So, yeah, men's work creating spaces so that we can explore these things, understand our limits and our and the breadth of our own experience. And I think queer people need that a lot.

The creating spaces that allow for the safety to be felt to fall into the trust of that container so that you can reveal vulnerable parts of yourself and to explore the full range. You know, so that, like, in the case of, you know, a child being told that, like, you know, who's who's out there screaming like a girl and, like, what that does to somebody to start like, did that make you start feeling self conscious about expressing your excitement afterwards?

I mean, it put a question mark because up until that point, I was just screaming. I was just excited. I didn't even realize that there was some sort of label. It was just what was coming. And so in that moment, I'm like, oh, it's now been compared or labeled as something and clear through the context and tone that that is not good.

Not good for you.

Not good for like, it like, it's this being labeled as this is not good and potentially dangerous. I think queer people have had that experience like, oh, that now I'm learning that this isn't this isn't safe. And, you know, so then what do you do? You start to shut down.

Right. So we find spaces that allow us to take those parts of us that were shut down and bring them back online, to reveal them more, to play with them, to express them again.

Right. And the and the men's workspaces and the circles that that I create and the ones that you've been in, they also then allow us the opportunity to do practices that help us to even uncover some of it. Right? To to get out of our own way so that we can reacquaint ourselves with the part of us that we may have forgotten even existed because it was buried so long ago and rewarded for for being hidden for such a long time. So then this space allows you, oh, okay.

Well, if I do a really intense practice, what do I find? Oh, there's a piece of me I kind of forgot about. Now I can start to look at it and understand, like, what it is, how it is, and how I want to how I want to have that, how I want to be with it. Part of that, it's just this hidden thing. Right.

No. So having those spaces created and hopefully a skilled facilitator to hold that space and guide, I think, is the thing that creates the safety and the trust. It is the the opposite of anxiety, that opportunity. And then the more we know ourselves, I think the more we can have create that same safety, create that same space for ourselves as we move throughout the world.

Absolutely. And I hope that we can continue to see more spaces created, but also not having to rely on that either. Like, let's also figure out how we can hold space and create space for each other on a smaller scale as well.

Mhmm.

Right? Like, that's kind of the the the summary of this episode is that, like, there's a lot of ways in which we can hold space. We can hold it for ourselves. We can hold it for each other. We can do that intimately 1 on 1 through creating space, you know, creating containers that are either time box, environment box, whatever it might be that creates a structure around it.

And and really, like, allowing for a safe exchange to take place.

And that's why, the circle in Provincetown, I encouraged one of the men to create a Facebook group. A Facebook group that I don't that I'm not in charge of, specifically so that men can connect in other ways. So, yes, it's great when you come to practice, and yes, it's great when you come to share. But also, maybe you just need someone to have coffee with you. And and, you know, if they come from the circle and they are a practiced man, chances are they have an understanding of holding space in this way. And so you can get some more of what you need, some more of this work in a pretty casual, you know, we can have coffee on a bench. Mhmm. It doesn't have to you know, we don't have to be sitting in lotus position on his office surrounded by candles. No. We can have a nice coffee on a bench and get a little bit of that nourishment that we need.

It's a good reminder that you can take your practice anywhere. Totally.

I mean, I think conscious men, we should be trying to take our practice everywhere.

Absolutely.

Well, I think that's a great place to end on. Take our practice everywhere.

Invite everyone here that if you do have a daily practice, practice it everywhere.

Practice it everywhere. Yeah.

Well, then I'm feeling very complete. How are you?

I feel very complete. Thank you so much for joining us here in the circle. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken. Aho.

Aho.

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