Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to share your favorite episode, leave us a review, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, please send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. And now onto the show.
Eric Bomyea:Today, we continue our journey through the masculine archetypes by stepping into one of the most iconic and misunderstood figures, the warrior. The warrior embodies discipline, courage, purpose, and heart centered action. But when disconnected from healthy power, the warrior can cause harm to self and others. To help us navigate this terrain, we're joined by MJ Ocean, a Brazilian jujitsu black belt and active paramedic. MJ brings a lived understanding of the warrior's power, aligned with discipline, heart, and integrity.
Eric Bomyea:Tim, MJ, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready.
MJ Oshin:I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea:Okay. Let's do this. MJ, we're we're so happy to have you here today. How are you?
MJ Oshin:I'm doing great. Thanks for thanks for asking me to join the conversation with you guys. I'm humbled and excited to kinda see what words we can come up with and put into the field. It's, yeah, it's a humbling humbling ask from you guys, so I appreciate it. I'm doing well today.
MJ Oshin:It's a it's a beautiful Sunday. Was out for a nice walk, and the wind was the wind was wild today, so it was stirring up some stirring up some stuff for me today, which was great. I'm doing well. How are you guys doing?
Eric Bomyea:Doing really, really well. Very well. The wind was also channeling its power. So I just wanna I just wanna get right into it. So in your experience, on the mat in jujitsu and in the life or death situations of being a paramedic, I just wanna understand, what does the warrior archetype mean to you?
MJ Oshin:That's a great question. I I feel like it's it's something I've been really practicing and on a bit of a quest for myself for several years. And as I look back on my life and the more I learn about, you know, this that particular archetype as a warrior archetype, realized that there were a lot of things I was leaning towards in my, know, in my past that have, you know, sort of brought me into a place where I am now where I I look at I look at warrior. I come I kinda use it I kinda think more of it as a as a guardian is more of the word that that I like to use. I I feel like the warrior word kinda comes with this connotation that that, you know, you're encouraging out of the front front of the lines and and, you know, ready to take on the war.
MJ Oshin:And I don't feel that that's actually what the warrior archetype is more about. It's more about presence and calmness in the chaos. And I can really, you know, I can relate that back to my practice in jiu jitsu, the practice in jiu jitsu since since 2013. And, you know, it's a once I became a black belt, I sort of realized that I'm actually now I can start learning because it's such an in-depth practice. But, you know, being calm in a chaotic situation and and understanding your moves, understanding what you can and can't do, what's going to make things worse, what's going to make things better, and really relying on those practices.
MJ Oshin:And that kind of has mirrored into all aspects of life, and especially becoming a paramedic. When you're a paramedic and you show up at somebody's worst day of their life, it's, you know, when you show up, you almost see that that sort of release in people where they finally, they've been, you know, waiting for somebody to get there to help with the situation that they don't know how to handle. And when you get there, it's just this relief that, okay. Somebody is here to hold this for me. Somebody is here to to help.
MJ Oshin:And and that comes with a lot of, you know, a lot of pressure as well, because you want to be able to help them, and sometimes there's things that you can't you just can't do. But I think, you know, and what I've been practicing more is just to be present and rely on those skills, rely on those practices, those things that you've been, you know, honing, those tools that you've been honing to to have that sense of groundedness and that anchor, that real anchor point for somebody to to hold on to. So I feel that they like, the the, you know, the practice of of jujitsu and what I've been what I've been doing in that with learning and becoming a a better a better man and more of the person who I feel that I wanna be has helped me in my quest of being a good paramedic and helping people. And that sort of just really comes along to that that grounded that grounded sense of of, you know, having that anchored feeling like you're you're you have space to hold. You could hold that space because you know you can be comfortable in that darkness when somebody else can't.
Tim Bish:So, you know, I wanna I I'm I'm I love what you said earlier because I think I want it to be a big part of the conversation that we're having, that you conceptualize the warrior as, a guardian, and you had this whole, like, reframe around it, which I absolutely love because as you rightly said, the warrior in its fullness has to be heart centered, has to be compassionate. Otherwise, it's in the shadow state. And I think we live in a world where we have glamorized, this idea of this strong man. And so when when what I've noticed as a queer person in men's work is we get to the archetypes, and a lot of men feel really eager to be like this sort of loud warrior. I'm gonna scream and I'm gonna stick my tongue out.
Tim Bish:By the way, all of which is so good, and I've I've also screamed and stuck my tongue out.
MJ Oshin:There's a time.
Tim Bish:Yeah. Yeah. And, like, and you wanna tap into that primal, it can be really, really helpful. But this idea of like, oh, well, what is, like, what is it we're aiming for? What is the big picture?
Tim Bish:So is it this John Wayne sort of the the hero that never needs help that always wins the fight, that's always super strong and doesn't need to ask for help? And it sounds like what you're talking about and not just in your practice, but then in real world application is something much broader. So I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about, your experience of that cultural understanding of the, of the of the warrior in this moment, the the strong man? Mhmm. And and what needs to happen for us to be more of the conscious man?
MJ Oshin:Yeah. That's a really great question. Like, there's a a point that you touched on there, the the word hero. And I think that that that, you know, I I think that gets confused as well into the into the piece of, like, a guardian warrior. You know?
MJ Oshin:And a hero comes with a lot more I don't wanna say it's more self worth. It's more doing something, proving oneself, where, like, a guardian is more focused on, like, responsibility
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. There can be
MJ Oshin:focused on
Eric Bomyea:There can be, like, a selflessness associated with guardianship or protector energy. Right? So this idea that we can kind of, like, serve a greater purpose
MJ Oshin:Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:Aligned with integrity and heart that that can align us a little bit more towards that guardian. Maybe like sometimes the hero maybe have a little self centeredness attached to to that narrative?
MJ Oshin:Absolutely. And I mean, I've seen both, you know, archetypes. They, you know, they presented themselves in the jiu jitsu world definitely where you'll have certain people. I mean, the great thing is is that jiu jitsu will will work it right out of you because if you if you're coming into it with with an ego, you're gonna need somebody who doesn't have that ego who will destroy you and destroy that ego. But, you know, some people do make it a long way and and and, you know, still have that.
MJ Oshin:You know, I've been lucky enough that in my training, haven't, you know, I haven't seen a whole lot of it. You've seen I've seen, you know, maybe people who are leaning more towards that, but, you know, I haven't seen that sort of, you know, that muscle man, Arnold Schwarzenegger type guy who's just, you know, there to to just kick some ass and chew bubble gum. You know? That certainly is is a, like, fun vibe to put out from time to time, but I feel like, you know, when it comes down to the root of it, you know, the the guys who like, the quietest guy on the mat, the quietest guy sitting off into the corner who's, you know, usually the calmest person and the most centered person, that's the most dangerous guy. That's the one you you you have to look out for.
MJ Oshin:That's the one who's who's, you know, he's going to make you the nail. I've certainly seen it in paramedicine, lots of different examples with toxic all kinds of different toxic masculinity traits that are, you know, coming out and showing themselves in all kinds of different forms. And obviously, when, you know, you show up at a call as a you know, with that sort of guardian type, you know, that demeanor, that can start to cause a bit of pushback from that from that from that shadow. And it's something you need to be present and aware of. You know, in my role when I was working heavily in the field, it was, you know, we we didn't have much of a of a mandate for actually any type of self defense.
MJ Oshin:It was throw your back down and get away. Always have a way to get away from a situation, and then we call the police. So that's their job to do that. I always felt that was kinda, you know, kinda weird, but, you if you look at all the I think there's some legal risks involved in actually teaching paramedics how to fight. So that wasn't something that was ever really but I, you know, had that ability coming into being a paramedic and would certainly present that vibe.
MJ Oshin:But I feel like when you do have that, you know, that that centeredness, that groundedness, you represent yourself in a way that it's it's sort of unspoken. People can just know that just by the way that you, you know, interact or the way that you say no or the way that you, you know, put yourself out there that they just know, oh, this isn't somebody that I would probably wanna mess with. You know, there's a confidence there, but I think it's something deeper than confidence that comes through.
Tim Bish:I'm curious, because I think this is true for so many disciplines. Now the disciplines that I have been in myself, but also the ones that you're talking about in martial arts. Mhmm. The this ability, this, calmness, centeredness, focus, it feels like it comes from more than just a physical practice. Can you speak a little bit about the cultivation of that aspect of a person in the disciplines that you're familiar with?
Tim Bish:Because, yes, I have to imagine there are physical practices that help cultivate that, but there's also other components running concurrently. Can you can you share a little bit about
MJ Oshin:that? Mhmm. Well, I mean, yeah, absolutely. In jujitsu, you know, we talk about balance, and we talk about base. And it's not just your physical form that needs to be balanced and based.
MJ Oshin:It's it's it's a it's a balance between physical, mental, and spiritual base that that, you know, and those are all the pieces that you need to work on. Like, every day, every at every at every practice, at every every class you go to. You know, I feel that the, you know, the physical one is is one we all know. I mean, you know, going to the gym and and doing a workout or doing yoga or anything like that. I mean, yoga is probably a little bit of a different thing because it does have a lot of that spiritual, you know, that spiritual and mental piece to it.
MJ Oshin:But I, you know, I know a lot of people find a very spiritual experience going to good life. And I don't know if you have good life down there, but you know what I mean? Like a like a sort of a box gym. Mhmm. But, you know, a lot of people have that have that feeling of of I put my headphones on, I get in my zone, I I go do my thing.
MJ Oshin:So I think it's it's even unknowingly, I think that we're always working on those three aspects. But I think as a you know, when you're when you're practicing a skill like jiu jitsu where you're actually practicing you're pretending to murder your your friends is at the end at the end of the day, you're, you know, it's like, I could murder you right now. Oh, tap tap tap.
Eric Bomyea:The new tagline for for jujitsu. Jujitsu, silent to tell you. Pretend pretend like you're murdering your friends. Yeah.
MJ Oshin:Pretend murder time. But I think what you know, that that for your nervous system, that puts you into that into that fight or flight state and and being able to get into that state and be comfortable there and have that trust with the other with your other training partners. You know, that doesn't just build your physical resilience of being able to move your body in a certain way, that builds your mental resistance of being able to handle stressful situations that are coming at you mentally that might not need you to physically act. But then it also plays into that spiritual side of it where, you know, you're trusting your brothers that are there with you, that are that are putting you into these positions so that you're putting these people into these positions and realize that if I hold on to this for another ten seconds, I could potentially kill this person. You know?
MJ Oshin:So there's there's that element of it that just brings it and makes it even more makes it more real.
Tim Bish:One of the things one of the things I'm hearing you say right now, it sounds like you're talking about the opportunity for someone to be really working at their edge. And it sounds like in a martial art, it isn't just an edge that a a person can push themselves to in their own practice, but an edge that they might be pushed to in a partner practice. So arguably, like a little bit deeper, and I'll just do a quick aside, you know, in the yoga asana lineage in which I'm trained, a lot of the times we were taught, like, the r s our adjustments, our physical adjustments when we were doing them were necessary. It was like it was like hard for the person maybe to go farther and our, you know, additional pressure what in whatever way that would come would allow them to deepen in in a way that, like, they may not be able to do on their own. So it sounds to me like this is an opportunity where people are really meeting their edge and then understanding, becoming familiar with what it means to really be at your edge, how to communicate at your edge, how to not collapse at your edge, or panic at your edge.
Tim Bish:That feels like a thing that could be of great value to the whole world.
Eric Bomyea:And I think to bring it back to the warrior as well, that one of those edges that somebody could easily cross over is taking the life of another.
Tim Bish:Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:And so a big part of the warrior in its fullness is to be the protector, to be the guardian, to protect what is sacred in ourselves and others. And it it really is for me, it's probably one of the most spiritual archetypes because it is in service of greater than. Right? Mhmm. It is something that is about the the the actions and the courage and the the protection of something bigger than self.
Eric Bomyea:Right? And so I I really love, like, how, like, within the martial arts, there is that, like, there is that moment of, like, oh, I am protecting what is sacred. I am protecting my own life. I'm protecting the life of others. I'm working with this in a in a safe container to really tap into my inner warrior in its fullest.
MJ Oshin:Absolutely. And I feel like, you know, in you know, in somatic in work, in the men's work that we've all done together, you know, that's that's a piece of of getting there as well. Like, that's that's another way. It's another tool of getting there. You know, it was the one connection I really made with jujitsu when I started doing when I started doing some of some of that type of work was was how I was unknowingly doing it in jujitsu, the same the same type of thing.
MJ Oshin:And and when we talk about that brotherhood or about somebody being there to push you more to to go to your edge because our our, you know, our our egos tell us to stop. We wanna avoid pain. We wanna avoid, you know, feeling uncomfortable. We want to get through those waves. We, you know, we we feel like we're in that wave of uncomfortableness that it's gonna last for a hundred and eight years, and I don't wanna I don't wanna be here anymore.
MJ Oshin:You know? So we we we our, you know, our egos try to force us away from that. But I think it's it is it's coming back to those those, you know, those points in the in the warrior archetype that are that are devotion. And, you know, it's some there is something greater. It it's their structure, but there's also you know, it's not rigid.
MJ Oshin:You have to be open to somebody be pushing you and and allowing that to happen, realize that you're right, like, you're in a safe container. Do we have you know, do people end up getting not tapping in time and and pass out? And, yeah, that happens. But that's, you know, that's almost celebrated in a sense where it's you should have tapped earlier. It's your mistake.
MJ Oshin:But, you know, you you were playing with your edge. You you you were really trying to get there. And you talked about
Eric Bomyea:getting the ego beat out of you sometimes. Well, that's a prime example of it. Like, if if I'm letting my ego get in the way of, like, self protecting self protection of myself, and I think that I can, like, work through it. Can be like, oh, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tap out. I'm not gonna let this person get the best of me.
Eric Bomyea:Well Mhmm. Then I pass out.
MJ Oshin:Then you pass out. Exactly.
Eric Bomyea:And I'll learn I'll learn real fast for the next time.
Tim Bish:Well, that isn't always necessarily ego. Mhmm. That that I mean, just I mean, I I I see what we're saying. And, also, I can imagine because, you know, being a professional dancer, having a very strong drive to push yourself to the next level. Right?
Tim Bish:So I can imagine someone who's like, I'm not super interested in, like, appearing a certain way to these people necessarily, in this moment, but rather, like, I really wanna see, like, where the limit is. And so then in that sense, passing out might be like, well, that was the first time I really knew. Right? And, like and then I I have to imagine there's gotta it has to have happened at least a few times. You'd be like, well, now that that's happened, I know I should have tapped five seconds earlier or ten seconds earlier.
Tim Bish:Like, I from that perspective, I imagine you're like, now I understand more clearly when I need like, when I was really at my edge. Right? I mean, have you ever witnessed that from someone?
MJ Oshin:Oh, absolutely. I've been there. Yeah. Yeah. Recently.
MJ Oshin:You know, it was I think last week, I was on the mats for an open role, and there is a heavy hitter, a very athletic younger brown belt, and I was nearing the end of you know, we we do an open roll. It usually goes for about an hour and a half, and I usually don't miss a round. I just with their five minute rounds with, like, a minute break in between, sometimes six minute rounds, and I just try to keep going and just keep trying to push myself. Well, you'll you'll see guys across the mat and, you know, usually, you just you you try to avoid the ones you don't wanna make eye contact with that you don't wanna kinda get into. Like, I don't want that fire right now.
MJ Oshin:I don't need that fire right now. Ah, there's somebody I can play with. But sometimes you end up catching eyes and the nod happens, and it's okay. Yeah. Alright.
MJ Oshin:Let's go. And I'll never turn down a role unless I feel that it's, you know, a scenario where I'm I don't feel like that person's a safe person to actually train with. But most of the guys that I train with are all very safe guys. So but, you know, I was rolling with him. I was really tired.
MJ Oshin:He was he was on me, and and, you know, he was he was putting the moves and just he was one step ahead of me the whole time. And we got into a position where I felt I was safe, and he I wasn't really sure what he was doing. He was like, I knew he was, like, lining something up, and he ended up with with, like, an interesting kind of cross choke from a different position that I wasn't really familiar with. And, you know, we got into it. It wasn't all super tight, and he was he was putting it on and putting it on, and I was like, I'm okay.
MJ Oshin:I'm alright. And then I hear the frequency of the universe starting to come in, and it all starts.
Tim Bish:Mhmm. Mhmm. You
MJ Oshin:know? And then I'm like, and he let go. But obviously, after even after he lets go, it still goes for a minute or two. And I didn't completely go out, but, you know, I I knew that, okay, I messed up. I fucked up a long time ago.
MJ Oshin:I fucked up when I when I, like, I knew he was doing something, and I didn't really stop him from doing it. But, you know, part of me was also going, I wanna see where this is going. So I was sort of, like, playing with my edge a little bit of, like, how far can I let this go before I'm actually really in trouble? And now I'll tell you, like, 100%, I roll with this guy again, and we get into that position. I'm not letting him get one inch on me in that position because I know, oh, he's got something there.
MJ Oshin:Right? Like I said, it was something that I hadn't seen before. And I think that that's, you know, that's that's learning, you know, just like in life, that's learning. I haven't seen this situation before, but I'm gonna use, you know, my intuition and my skills that I've developed from whatever it is that my practices are, and and see how far they'll see how far they'll take me. But, yeah, I mean, we all gotta mess up to be able to get better.
MJ Oshin:But, yeah, I think it's just, you know, just sort of back to your your your point, Tim. Like, it is it is about, you know, pushing yourself to and knowing when it is time to kinda, like, push yourself to those edges. You know, for me, if I'm if I'm training with, like, a brand new a brand new person, that's probably not a time where I'm gonna push myself to those edges. I'm gonna, you know, make sure that we have a safe role and try to let them get into positions, get myself into positions where I know that they know moves from those positions so that they can practice them. So that's a different, you know, a whole other different level of I guess working at working an edge.
MJ Oshin:It's a different, you know, it's a different edge for me is to is to be gentle and to be subtle.
Tim Bish:This is like some of the some of the benefit I think of of the men's workspaces is creating this environment in which we we all know we're coming into a personal growth sort of workshop space, and we work simultaneously to understand our edge and expand our capacity while also sort of dismantling any unnecessary competitiveness. Right? So Mhmm. When I'm doing a breath hold, you know, with, like, Wim Hof or whatever, and I'm trying to expand my capacity to hold it a little longer, it isn't because I need to hold it longer than you. Or that, like, if I did hold it longer than you, that means something.
Tim Bish:And if I don't hold it longer than you, that also means something. It's like, no. No. No. No.
Tim Bish:I'm I'm trying to expand my capacity and my understanding of myself and my experience in the world, and that's why I might be pushing myself. And I think there's real benefit in that. So I guess I'm sort of curious on that experience. In the world that we're living in now, what like, what would you say to men who aren't either in men's work or in a martial arts practice about expanding their capacity in conscious in conscious ways that are that are focused on purpose and authenticity and less about image or competition or hierarchy?
MJ Oshin:That's a really great great great question. I mean, I think that, I mean, I think that, you know, most people have a piece of that in their life. I think they just maybe don't consciously know that they do, and then maybe don't, invest, you know, into it in the sense of this is something I need to you know, that will make me better. You know, I I feel that, like, people who don't are are people who get sick, you know, one way or another, they're they're sick. And and then they end up kind of some of them maybe fall down a rabbit hole of of having other people take care of them and and get into a poor me situation and and then they're just sort of spirals.
MJ Oshin:But I feel like for men who are, you know, looking to, you know, grasp onto more of that in their life, I think, you know, it's a it's a it's that subtle guardian type of a of a of a vibe that you wanna put to it. You know, planting you know, throwing pebbles to see how they ripple out, you know, rather than just like, I'm gonna go and I'm gonna join up and do kickboxing now. You know? Like, maybe that's too much for you. Maybe you need to start doing something else.
MJ Oshin:You know, just start with some breath work. Start with some movement. Get into some yoga. You know? Like, I mean, one of the nice things about jujitsu and I'll you know, obviously, I'm I'm a I'm a fan, so I'll I'll promote it.
MJ Oshin:Is that, you know, like, there's been this there there was this sort of tagline going around a while back that jiu jitsu is for everybody. And I don't really feel like it is for everybody. I feel that, you know, I don't feel that everybody can, you know, maybe rephrase it, it's not for everybody all the time. Mhmm. Like, I think there might be a time in your life when you find it and realize, you know, and whether that's jujitsu or whether that's, you know, men's work, whether that's yoga, I think through the time in your life you find it and it aligns and then and then you start to realize.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Based off of what we were talking about kind of being in this right mindset. If we're struggling with a bunch of shadowy things of ego, maybe even some cruelty, some of the shadow aspect of the warrior, right, it may not be the right time to go into something so intense. So maybe it's maybe it's time to to work on cultivating those right actions, that right that righter way of of being before then going into something that could be potentially very dangerous and very, very harmful to self and others.
MJ Oshin:Mhmm. Mhmm. I completely agree. I think, you know, like, it's working on those tenants first of of being present. You know?
MJ Oshin:If if somebody can just actually be present and recognize the emotions that they're having, recognize when they're in their ego. You know what I mean? This is something we all work at getting better at. But if you can even just start by, you know, understanding those pieces of yourself, You know, because chaos, it requires clarity and and care. You know, you have to actually be able to to sit back and look at the whole the whole thing and everything that you're sort of dealing with.
MJ Oshin:I think that for a lot of us, that's really hard to do.
Eric Bomyea:Right. Because we look at we look at chaos and, like, for me, I I struggle with this daily. I'm like, control it. Right? Like, I'm a project manager.
Eric Bomyea:I'm like I'm like, oh, there's mess going on over there. I can clean it up. I can control it. Right? Rather than, like, bringing in the curiosity care and kind of devotional aspect of, like, I can work with it.
Eric Bomyea:And I think, like, that's that's part of my work within the warrior archetype is, like, learning to move from control to protection. Mhmm. Mhmm. Protecting the project, not controlling the project. Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:And then the outcome.
MJ Oshin:And you you said a good thing there as well. It's kinda brought up a piece. It's like in in most martial arts and anything that's really physical, it's about it's about redirecting energies. And, you know, if you're on bottom and somebody's on side control on you, all you do is just throw your arms up and push on them to use all your might to push them off of you, you might be able to get them up and off of you, but you're also exposing yourself in all kinds of different ways. You're exposing your neck, you're exposing your arms, you're exposing your legs to attacks.
MJ Oshin:Know, a more thoughtful and caring and clear way of doing it would be using a technique that doesn't allow that person to advance any further and gives you more space to allow you to move into that space. So that metaphor for, you know, just about anything in life, I think, is is an important, you know, an important thing to learn that you you can't meet resistance with more resistance. You know, you need to you need to find a way to tactfully and and intelligently redirect that energy and open up space for yourself.
Tim Bish:I mean, this idea that the the necessity of space is, I think, so important because I think it is opposite of what we think when we have this strong man archetype that, you know, the sort of, like, I I'm just gonna be able to push and be strong and never yield the whole time. And I think in real in real world living, that isn't how it actually happens. And the the creation of space, the pausing, the timing, all of these things can allow for real skillful nuance. We don't talk about it in that way. We talk about, like, oh, like, Superman lifts the truck and throws it, you know, crushes, like, the the supervillain.
Tim Bish:And and we don't have the nuanced conversation of, oh, well, I needed to I need to actually step back in order to then duck under. I wasn't retreating. I was making a strategic move. And so I think of it sometimes when you think about a bow and arrow, and you think, oh, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna shoot you with my arrow, and that makes me, like, the smart, strong one because you're dead. You know?
Tim Bish:You had to pull that arrow back before you could, you know and it's like, I needed I needed I I moved in the opposite direction before you know? And that this so this nuanced understanding of space and timing and nuance, I think, is really powerful for a conscious warrior because it isn't always just pushing or never yielding, but rather clear conscious understanding of your situation and how to move in it. Now as a as a partner dancer, I've done that a lot. Like, oh, the way I create space for you is by stepping back or moving to the side. And it's a whole it's a whole technique of how we communicate with each other, and it sounds like that's what you're talking
Eric Bomyea:about too. Like, it's it's Absolutely. It's learning discernment through technique. Mhmm. So by studying techniques, we're then able to have the discernment of, like, what is going to serve right now?
Eric Bomyea:Do I need to create space for my partner? Do I actually need to get closer to my opponent versus like using all of my effort to push away? That may be may be my knee jerk reaction because I don't have the technique, so I don't have discernment. I'm just in a reaction Versus being able to, like, have that conscious presence to be able to say, okay. Now I've studied technique, and I can now find the tool that is needed in this moment because I've studied it.
Eric Bomyea:And so, like, even Superman, I would say, like, like maybe from the outside looks like he's just instantly going, but I think that's years of practice and experience of being a badass superman.
Tim Bish:Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Yeah.
Tim Bish:We we could have a really robust conversation. I'm I'm not suggesting that Superman is is the epitome of the strong type of the strong man archetype. But I am saying that in the in the telling of the story, we don't often see or at least in the movies, we don't often see him Having the inner dialogue of, like, of the discernment. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea:Here are my options, and I'm going through my Rolodex decks of techniques. Right? Like, which one is gonna serve right now?
Tim Bish:Well, and and then I think culturally, when we when we think about this, so if I was gonna do Brazilian jujitsu for the first time, and I'm walking in with a with a very clear and probably rigid understanding of what it means to be a man and what it means to be strong and what it means to be powerful, then am I limiting myself in the practice of this technique because every time I take a step back, I think I've failed. Right? And so you'd be like oh, you're like, oh, we have to reframe this idea of, oh, if this is a flow and flow is part of what we're doing, but we have to reframe that that sort of cultural thinking. And I and I definitely think that's impacted queer men when they're trying to find their own masculinity. I you know, because we had this idea of what it meant to be strong.
Tim Bish:And so we either met it or we overcompensated to try to meet it or we withdrew from it. And
MJ Oshin:Yeah. That's a really interesting point. I mean, we we certainly do in jujitsu. It's something we have to constantly be reminding people of that sometimes you need to go backwards to go forwards. You're in you're in somebody's guard, and and they're good in their guard.
MJ Oshin:It's a bad place to be. You're not gonna you're not gonna do yourself any favors by trying to, you know, barge through that. You need to find a way out first and then find your way around. You know, I I think that, you know, that sort of starts to play a little bit on the on the, you know, the shadow warrior side of, you know, of being in a situation with a shadow warrior archetype who is dominating, controlling, you know, really ego based. And, you know, you can get can get wrapped up into into their guard, you know, where they're controlling you, and you didn't even realize it started to happen.
MJ Oshin:And I think that, you know, that comes back to that presence and clarity of understanding where you are and what's happening, but you definitely need to make space. You need to make space for yourself and get away from, you know, those clutches so that you can find your way around or get away. You know? But I think that that's, you know, that's developing that relationship within yourself as well to be able to, like, really understand those pieces and and understand that, like, you know, the guys who are in those shadow warrior phases are you know, I think sometimes they can look they can look golden. They can look you know, they can appear to us as as, like, they're fantastic.
MJ Oshin:These are amazing people who have their shit all figured out, and I wanna connect with that. And, you know, little did we know until, you know, months, years later that that that was a part of the control, that was part of the the ego, and that kinda drew you in.
Tim Bish:What and it feels like sorry. It feels like the warrior in its fullness has a real connection to purpose and and intention. Right? And so when I when I'm hearing you talk, I'm thinking about I'm thinking about my dad, my biological father who's no longer with us, who was a real brawler. You know?
Tim Bish:And he I think he studied karate, or I think it was karate. And he was a real brawler. And I remember in those moments, those rare moments when I would see him fighting, later, there was always this story and this, like, telling of the tale and this deep desire to, like, be perceived a certain way in the context of the story. And I have to imagine that the warrior in his fullness, and and when I've seen it a few times, not in physical confrontations, but in other ways, they're less worried about how you how you perceive me in this moment, and they're more worried about, well, what was it I was defending? Like, what for what was I standing and how?
Tim Bish:And Mhmm. And and to me, that feels like a really important distinction because were you the tough guy who won the fight, or were you the were you the the literal warrior or guardian who defend guardian, I said guardian. Mhmm. Guardian, upholding a principle that you hold dear. Those feel different.
Eric Bomyea:What what values were you holding closest?
Tim Bish:Mhmm. Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:Like, is it, like, some sort of public perception and you highly value that? Or is it defensive life or an ideal or or something that you believe is, you know, important in its world? Yeah.
MJ Oshin:Yeah. Think that's an important distinction. Yeah. I'm I I think about some more of that Shadow Warrior and and how it can how it can kinda show itself in more subtle ways as well, you know, because you you spoke about, you know, perception. And I think that, you know, one of the things I personally struggle with is is, you know, my how I'm perceived at my job or how I'm perceived, you know, am I doing a good job?
MJ Oshin:Am I, you know, next in line for that promotion? Or am I you know, those types of thoughts. And then that that forces you to do things like work crazy amounts of overtime. And when, you know, when you stop and actually think about it, it's like and and then for some strange reason, you know, that's, like, praised by people for you know, it's, like, looked at as a badge of honor that you worked, you know, an extra forty hours of overtime.
Eric Bomyea:This is the first time
MJ Oshin:How much time that you put into it.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. This is the first time I'm making this connection that like, you know, the the the office worker can also be a warrior. Right? And in this case, right, this almost sounds like the we've talked a little bit about the sadism aspect, the cruelty aspect of the the warrior shadow, but this sounds like the masochist.
MJ Oshin:That's exactly it.
Eric Bomyea:Somebody who has just completely lost themselves, self erasure, that is just going through these these like, they're just like over and over and over again putting themselves into the battle when they're not ready to do it or they're not capable of doing it. They might be, you know, tired or fatigued or whatever it might be. And then they're like, what value are they upholding at that point? Why are they doing it? What's their purpose?
Eric Bomyea:What's their intention behind? Why they keep going and back into the fight?
MJ Oshin:Yeah. Is it ego? Is it you know, is it because well, hey. This guy, you know, he'll he'll come and he'll do anything. He'll work an extra couple of hours.
MJ Oshin:You know? So you're the guy. You're the man. Mhmm. Know?
MJ Oshin:That every and and but what is that? What is that actually helping? At the end of the day, like, in in in, you know, my line of work, in my job work as a as a paramedic. And, like, now I work I work as a supervisor in in a communication center now, and so I deal with a lot more with those sort of office dynamics. But you can see you can see how that how that starts to play.
MJ Oshin:And oftentimes, there is a a shadow warrior archetype that's kind of spearheading that that whole situation. They're the ones who are, you know, praising the people for putting in the extra, you know, putting in all the extra work even if it's as a detriment to their family or to themselves. And at the end of the day, in in in health care, I think I want the people making the decisions that are, you know, making those important decisions to be rested and be grounded and be centered. And so I think that that's you know, you you have to look at, you know, what is what is what am I actually doing this for?
Eric Bomyea:Right. And
MJ Oshin:that's something that I've struggled with myself, you know, just trying to
Eric Bomyea:And a connection with your own boundaries, right, of of understanding, like, oh, if if there's this person in the office that I can continuously push things off to because, you know, Frank's just gonna keep doing it. He's he's he's the a team player, and he's gonna do it no matter what. He's just gonna keep going, going, going. So I'm gonna keep giving him stuff. Like, it's up to him to tap into his warrior and his fullness to set a boundary.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm. And when he doesn't Absolutely. And when he doesn't set that boundary, right, then falls into potentially the masochist.
Tim Bish:But I think we that's a great example of, like, that if a person were to do that, they're setting the boundary not to be the tough guy, not to be the asshole, but in defense of something that they value, which would be their own self care or maybe, like, the impact it's gonna have on their family. And so it I I think it's like this nuanced thing. Right? Because you're like, oh, when the warrior asserts his boundaries, he's not trying to be a dick. Mhmm.
Tim Bish:He's serving something that is of importance. And then maybe an outside observer could debate, like, the validity of that importance. You know? But but if the warrior is clear about, like, oh, I'm defending my own self care. I'm defending time with my family.
Tim Bish:I'm defending the the future of my career because I care. I'm you know, it matters to me. Of those things, you're like and then if you go in it with that intention, then I think it's wildly different than I just need you to know that I'm not gonna let you walk all over me anymore. Right. That has a different intention.
Tim Bish:And that and like two birds, you like, it can still happen. It'd be like, in so doing, I'll let you know that you can't walk all over me, but that isn't why I'm telling you. Because because if that were why, you kinda don't need to. Right? I'm telling you because this matters to me this much.
Tim Bish:I think I'm bringing that up only because when we think about the archetypes in their fullness, that's the difference. It could look exactly the same. From the outside observer, it like, the the thing could look exactly the same, and then the the the question or the curiosity would be, well, what was really operating? And you're like, well, what was operating was my own self care or, like, the protection of my family versus, you know.
Eric Bomyea:Right. The the intention, like, it is it serving a purpose typically greater than yourself? Right? And and if in doing that, if in serving that purpose, then if you are in defense, you're in guardianship, and you're not in a place that's coming from from cruelty or or lack of self, you're doing it with with that purpose, with that value system.
Tim Bish:Have we talked about sacred dick on the podcast yet? I can't remember.
Eric Bomyea:I don't think so.
Tim Bish:Okay. Sacred dick. MJ, do you are you familiar with this concept of sacred dick? No. Okay.
Tim Bish:Okay. So No. It's a fun one because it it because it really is, a conscious man working with, aspects of the warrior archetype energy, which is, it's when a man will speak a harsh truth for the what is that? It's funny, though. Right?
Tim Bish:Yeah. It's funny. Yeah. It's when a man will speak a harsh truth for the for the greatest good of all. Right?
Tim Bish:And so I've actually done this one. I mean, the first time I did it, I was really frustrated because we we had, like, set a time container in this, like, Zoom circle, and then no one no one upheld the time container. And so at the end of the time container, they were like, well, we've run out of time, like, three men. If you guys could just do, like, a quick thirty second share, and we'll do you next time. And my thirty second share was, I'm feeling really frustrated because we're supposed to be conscious men with time integrity, and now there's not enough time for me to do it because no one was upholding it.
Tim Bish:Like, that doesn't feel good to me. And so then later, I you know, then, like, the good boy part of me was like, oh, I feel guilty that you know? And my my teacher was like, no. You were being sacred dick. Because it wasn't about it wasn't about me saying, like, you did something bad to me and, you know, it was like, if we're all conscious men, then we're trying to practice consciousness at all times and all ways in these moments.
Tim Bish:And then, you know, to greater or lesser extent, so we never beat someone up for failing. But here was a case where you're like, well, we said we were gonna do three and a half minutes, and then we didn't. Yep. So it's like
MJ Oshin:I love that.
Tim Bish:Do we wanna be conscious men or not? Like, how how conscious do we
Eric Bomyea:wanna be? Protecting what is sacred in that point. And then if if we've all agreed that time is sacred, then Mhmm. You're in your warrior.
Tim Bish:Well, like I'm protecting time. And like like ceremony and ritual, things are only important because we say so. So if I if I if I don't if I say something and then I don't actually uphold it, then my words mean nothing. Neither does anything else. Like, okay, then what the fuck are we doing?
Tim Bish:Instead, you'd be like yeah. It's like, so if we say it, then we try to do it. And then if we can't do it, that's not bad either, but then we have to acknowledge that we couldn't do it. And that would also be to be like, hey. I know I said this, and then I didn't do that because blah blah blah.
Tim Bish:I'll either gonna try harder or let you know that I'm aware of it. You know? Mhmm. So it isn't, like, hard and fast. But anyway, so the this warrior to be like, the warrior can actually be intense and smiling and loving because it's like, well, I don't I'm not here to make you feel bad.
Tim Bish:I'm just
Eric Bomyea:here
Tim Bish:to speak the truth as what's happening.
Eric Bomyea:Uphold uphold the the value.
Tim Bish:Yeah. Mm-mm. This is what I I get. I'm getting really excited. Obviously, you can you guys can tell.
Tim Bish:But because this other image of the warrior that I think I've grown up with is so one dimensional as to be, like, uninteresting and super unhelpful. Right? And this other person is like, oh, I'm actually I'm actually and actually, I've seen it. Oh, I've seen it in Got them. I've seen it in sports, and I've seen it in dance.
Tim Bish:Like, most of my dance teachers, they were so intense. They were not assholes. They're like they're like, you wanna be a professional dancer? I think you're able to do it, so it doesn't do anything for me to blow smoke up your ass. Instead, I'm gonna you know?
Tim Bish:But it was in service to, well, you said you wanna be a dancer. I think you can do it. Here's what you gotta do. And so they would scream at me. Jolinda would scream at me to plie, plie, jump higher, jump higher.
Tim Bish:And then when I finally did it the way she wanted, she was like, great job, Tim. It felt like she gave me a million dollars. I would I would leave the studio, like, floating. Her words meant that much because I knew she wasn't kidding.
Eric Bomyea:She was in her sacred dick?
Tim Bish:Yes. I feel like I wanna confer with someone in, you know, consciousness works. I I don't know what energy she would have been yes. Mhmm. Yes.
Tim Bish:She was a she I feel uncomfortable. I don't know. Don't know what to say.
Eric Bomyea:So Jolinda was in was in her full warrior, the fullness of her warrior. She was not out
Tim Bish:to Her heart centered
Eric Bomyea:warrior? She was not out to be a sadist. She was not saying like, I'm gonna make this boy jump, right, because it's gonna cause him pain. It's like, no. This is a person that has told me that they want this.
Eric Bomyea:And so I am going to I am going to uphold that.
Tim Bish:I'm gonna go even further and say that I think that that example was, if we were like, this was Jolinda, so she is a beautiful former ABT dancer, so she has feminine archetypes. But it is an example of a person connecting too many archetypes simultaneously, which is what we're trying to do. So it's like the person who has big vision, the person who knows how to be a bit of a drill sergeant in that moment, like the the the nurturing loving part of her that wanted the best for me, and the best for me meant screaming at me to jump higher or straighten my legs or know? I think she was tapping into a lot of stuff. It that example feels like a person in the fullness of most of their archetypes simultaneously and, like and then skillfully manipulating.
Tim Bish:Or not manipulating, maneuvering.
Eric Bomyea:Maneuvering. So I'm curious, MJ. Like like so, I mean, like, dance is dance is an intense, like like, physical sport. I know. Right?
Eric Bomyea:Like, so is Brazilian jiu jitsu. So how have your teachers pushed you in similar ways to how Tim was pushed?
MJ Oshin:Yeah. That's a good question. I mean, I love that I love that story, Tim. It's it's you know, I'm thinking about, you know, a lot of the times when we're when we're training, you know, your coach is yelling at you to do things, you know, and it's stuff that, like, you've been practicing and practicing and practicing and repping and repping, like, get your frames. Get your frames.
MJ Oshin:Bump the trim. You know? Like, yelling all these things at you. And so when you're watching a jiu jitsu matchup, one coach sitting there yelling at one guy and another coach sitting there yelling at the other guy, and it gets pretty intense. And oftentimes, sometimes, you know, if you're the person in it, you're listening to what the other person you're listening to the other coach because you're trying to get an idea of what they're gonna do, but you're trying to listen to your coach.
MJ Oshin:But, you know, I think that's a whole other piece we could unpack. But, you know, if we just look at, you know, like, that that type of motivation, you know, I think it it does go back to the to the warrior, but you're right. It does have it has some of the magician. It has some of the king. It has a little bit of everything in it that just a a nice balance that you want to you know, if you're in that zone, you you want to not just do it for yourself, but you're doing it for them too.
MJ Oshin:And then they're not yelling at you because they wanna be like, I'm the best coach on the planet. You know, they wanna see you succeed. So there's this mutual relationship of of of something bigger, of something greater that you're both trying to achieve together. But, yeah, it can come across as that sacred egg for sure. And especially, like, if something goes wrong in the match, you know, I'll see it where you'll have especially in the kids.
MJ Oshin:You know, sometimes there's strange calls that the ref makes, and you'll see, you know, like, the the cup one of the coaches will be like, get up and go talk to the ref and have a have a pretty heated conversation about what happened and why that that happened that way. There's a lot of passion involved. But I think in you know, I I think, like, if you can relate it back to even just even just your your average, like, person you know, your your average office worker, and I'm not saying that off being an office worker is an average thing, but just being in that type of an environment. You know, when you have a good coach or somebody who's, you know, looking at things and and looking at the bigger picture and, you know, they can come across as that sacred dick for sure. Like, no.
MJ Oshin:You you know, you can't you can't have that vacation.
Eric Bomyea:The number of times the number of times in my performance review that my boss probably would have called me the sacred dick is is quite high is quite high. It's my number one piece of feedback. I'm very passionate. So, you know, sometimes it can come across as like aggression, but it's just passion.
Tim Bish:Well, I'll just speak for myself. When when it's come to any dance teacher, choreographer, artistic director, any one of those people who were pushing me in this way, the one thing that I would say was always present was an undeniable love. Knew I knew that they loved me. And I suspect I'm sure like, I I can't recall any right now, but I suspect any teacher that was being really intense with me without that love, I probably was, like, drifting away from because that was the component. So that I I was never being yelled at.
Tim Bish:Well, I guess if I misbehaved, but I was such a good boy. But, like, you know, but, like, in class, I'm never being yelled at for, like, being a bad person or or, you know, it was only in service to me going to the next level.
MJ Oshin:Mhmm.
Tim Bish:And so what a beautiful, beautiful thing. And then it all it all just softens when you're like, oh, you're only screaming at me because you you know I can do it. And then this is the thing. Okay. Wait.
Tim Bish:I keep getting excited. But, like, you know, in, like, in dance culture, the the biggest insult a dance teacher can give you is just to ignore you. So you're like, oh, they're paying attention to me. They're paying attention to me because they think I've got something. Mhmm.
Tim Bish:And so if it comes off intensely, especially in the middle of a choreography where you're moving fast, sometimes that note needs to come in a blink of an eye. That's how much time you have.
Eric Bomyea:Anyway. And it's it's coming with with heart. Right? Like, let's let's take it back to the beginning here. The warrior without heart is a sadist or or a masochist.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Right? Like, a heart centered warrior is the person that is going to be the guardian, is going to be the protector, is going to be the person that wants to defend, protect, and and champion. What it also sounds like is is in both of your cases with your coaches and your mentors and all that, it's it's they want to be your champion. Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:And so the reason why I really haven't had much, like, input into this is because I did not have that experience growing up. I I did not have the champion in my corner. So when I hear screaming, it's like it's in a negative aggressive way. It's not in a I'm trying to cheer for you, root for you, trying to get you to do something better. It's like I'm trying to be aggressive and, like, belittle you.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm. Right? So I just haven't had that experience. So I experienced coaches and mentors with the, like, shadowy warriors. They were not heart centered warriors who were out for my best good.
Tim Bish:This was actually a really important lesson that I had to learn because I was fortunate to have so many unbelievable teachers and coaches. And so I got really accustomed to this sort of, like, intense, what could look externally like competitive engagement with, like, my other, like, teammates or fellow dancers or whatever. And then I realized, you know, in my early twenties in New York City, like, oh, not everybody responds to that. Not everyone understands it. So I would sometimes come with, like, playful competitive banter thinking like, well, this is what we do.
Tim Bish:And then realizing like, well, this is what I did in certain, like, spheres, but this is not what everyone does, and some people hate it.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm. And it's not just hate it, some people are triggered by it.
Tim Bish:Right. Right. Like like it makes
Eric Bomyea:It could a trauma trigger.
Tim Bish:Totally. Totally. And either way, it's like, then you realize, look, well, it's not my intention to make you feel terrible, so I have to I have to look at my own behavior and change it. But there is a part of me that was like, when my coaches would yell at me, like, it started to feel like love. So so to then bring that was like, oh, well this is, you know, how we show love.
Tim Bish:And then you're like, well, this is how I show love. Or or how I have been shown love.
Eric Bomyea:Or how you have received love. Yeah. Right? So and then recognizing that not everyone receives in that same way. Right.
Eric Bomyea:We just had an episode on on receptivity, which is why it's fresh. Alright, guys. So we have covered a lot of ground today, and I wanna wrap things
MJ Oshin:up.
Eric Bomyea:So the the work of integrating the warrior is is really fascinating. It's this archetype means cultivating right action, fighting for life but not destruction, moving with discernment, not rage, and protecting, not controlling. And when we can bring the warrior into its fullness, it becomes that guardian, that protector, such a such a wonderful figure for us to embody. And so I'm just really happy that we got to explore this conversation together. So I'm feeling complete.
Eric Bomyea:I'm gonna do the the circle around. Tim, how are you feeling?
Tim Bish:I'm good. I I I wanna bring one thing up and ask one final question if we have time, which is, you know, in in the practice of yoga, the first rule of yoga, if you wanna if you wanna practice yoga and you've never started before, rule number one, ahimsa, cause least amount of harm possible whenever possible. Right? So it's not about down dog or doing a split or any of that. It's like cause the least amount of harm possible.
Tim Bish:And I know that that is embedded in some martial art system. So I'm curious, is there some version of, conscious nonharming built into Brazilian jujitsu? I just Brazilian jujitsu is what I meant to say.
MJ Oshin:Yeah. For sure. You know, I think we really we really work, to push people to their edge, and sometimes I think that it's, you know, you've made the you've made that courageous move to to put on a white belt, and that's you know, for a lot of people, that's you know, like, you know, it's it's cliche, but it's true. It it's the hardest belt to get. But you've made that conscious effort to put on that white belt, and it it's either going to, you know, it's either gonna serve you or it's not, at that point in your life.
MJ Oshin:And so, you know, that being said, like, we're I I feel like different gyms have different sort of, you know, different kind of mantras for how they do bring people in. You know, you're not allowed to to to spar at certain gyms until you're a certain level, certain things like that. But, you know, I've kind of I kind of subscribe more to the theory of that, you know, we let people you know, if they're not comfortable with something, and usually, it's at the at you know, near the end of the class where we're doing live rounds or live sparring. I mean, wrapping a technique with somebody is usually pretty pretty safe, but, you know, always give them the option of saying, hey. Do you just wanna watch?
MJ Oshin:You know, you just wanna watch kinda what's happening? I think that, you know, and like I said, other different gyms have different ways of sort of doing that. But I also feel that, like, I don't feel like you should limit somebody if they want to get into the mix right away and really test themselves and jump jump over that cliff and jump into the water, then let's go. You're in a safe place to do that. So, that's you kind of the way that I've sort of aligned myself with.
MJ Oshin:But like I said, I think different lineages gyms have different ways of kind of bringing people in, but that's a really interesting point.
Tim Bish:Well, thank you very much. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Just I just wanna get a little bit of clarity on it. So is there like a precept almost that says like, okay. We are entering into this sacred space, the dojo, the training grounds. And we are all agreeing that like we are going to play and imagine that we're killing our friends, but we're actually not gonna kill each other.
Eric Bomyea:Right? Like like I think that's what Tim was getting at is like, because there's this kind of agreement that it's like like in yoga, it's ahimsa, like do the least amount of harm possible. Right? Like, is there something like that in, like, does it regardless of the gym, just in the the entire martial arts of of two?
MJ Oshin:I I mean, simple way to put it, if you're if you're a dick on the mats, you're you're gonna get like, you're gonna have a bad time. Okay. Like, so, I mean, most people come with a pretty humble attitude towards it. And, you know, it is a it is at the end of the day, it is fighting. You know, it is a confrontation.
MJ Oshin:So, you know, I guess we don't really you know, I don't subscribe to the idea of, like, just kind of, like, really holding somebody's hand and guiding them through more so than just, you know, there there's that unspoken presence of, like, you're safe here. And if somebody starts messing with you, like, we're on it. Mhmm. Mhmm. And that and that's something that, like, if somebody's doing something out of whack, you know, if somebody is is just going around and beating up a bunch of people who they can obviously beat up and are really goodistical, you know, one of the higher belts, one of the one of the enforcers in the class is gonna is gonna go and give them an an experience so that they understand that either they can't they shouldn't be doing that, they don't come back, or they come back more humble.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm.
Tim Bish:And they
MJ Oshin:realize, you know, they they make that connection or or they're gone, and they go to another gym where maybe they are allowed to do that. But at the end of the day, it's like, you know, I'm reminded of when I was younger, and I used to like to go hunting for snakes in my you know, and I live in Canada. We don't have any poisonous snakes up here. But my dad would always would always say, one day, you're gonna pick up a rock, and it's gonna be a snake bigger you can handle. And it's the same kind of thing.
MJ Oshin:It's like, if you keep, you know, you keep going at something, but that reckless abandonment, one day, it's just gonna come back at you. I think that's in a lot of different, you know, in a lot of different sort of ways of thinking. But
Tim Bish:Well, thank you for that.
MJ Oshin:So
Tim Bish:Yeah. I I appreciate it. Yeah. I I love the I love the respect that I feel I observe in
Eric Bomyea:all of
Tim Bish:the martial arts that I'm familiar with and some to greater extents than others, but there always feels built in a deep reverence and respect and humility and awareness, and I think that is so admirable. And with that, I feel complete.
Eric Bomyea:And the the white belt is that silent agreement of like, this isn't fight club.
MJ Oshin:Right. Right. Right.
Tim Bish:This is You have a
MJ Oshin:lot to learn, and you're you're putting your foot you're putting your foot in into the circle and and saying you're all in. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea:MJ, how are you feeling? Are you feeling complete?
MJ Oshin:I am. I love this conversation. I feel like, you know, I had a lot a lot of things I was thinking about that we didn't quite get to, but, like, we remember one thing I feel that, like, talking about, like, rhythm and timing and how those pieces all sort of add into into, like, being an effective, you know, practitioner of of, you know, becoming a guardian or becoming a warrior, listening to your ancestors, all the all those kind of things. There's just so much. It's such an in in-depth topic.
MJ Oshin:But some of the places that we went, I was really, really enjoyed hearing hearing your stories, Tim, and and, you know, there's so many similarities and so many metaphors that can really apply to a lot of different things, it really just kinda kinda opens it up and makes me more excited to dive into all the things that I'm diving into and have more presence and more clarity on on it all. So and and, Eric, your your insight on on, you know, a lot of the pieces that we were talking about is just incredible. So really appreciate, once again, the opportunity to talk with you guys about this about this topic, and, yeah, I feel complete.
Eric Bomyea:Thank you. Tim, will you take us out, please?
Tim Bish:Well, let's go ahead and close our eyes, take a deep inhale through the nose, and a big exhale. And just with deep appreciation and gratitude for any insights, awarenesses, or understandings that we may have gained in this sacred shared space that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we called in. And with these words, our container is open but not broken. Uh-huh.
MJ Oshin:Uh-huh.