Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practice, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to share your favorite episode, leave us a review, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. And now onto the show.
Eric Bomyea:In today's episode, we're exploring the magician archetype, the part of us that seeks wisdom, transformation, and hidden knowledge. To study this, we're joined by Stan Rain, the founder of the Naked Dojo and a coaching pioneer who, like the magician, is at the edge of transformation, blending ancient practices with modern tools like AI to help men step into their full power. Tim, Stan, are you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish:I'm ready.
Stan Rain:Now I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea:I love it. The transformation happening right before our eyes. I'm I'm impressed. I'm so impressed right now with with your with your magician energy, and I'm so excited to dive into this conversation. Welcome.
Eric Bomyea:Welcome, Stan. How are you today?
Stan Rain:I'm doing stantastic.
Eric Bomyea:Hell, yeah. Like yourself. I'm doing very, very well, and it's so nice to see you
Timothy Bish:again. I'm doing Timmerific.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. We got fantastic, Timmerific, and Eric's Eric. Eric's a link. Eric amazing. Eric's a link.
Timothy Bish:Eric's a link. Eric's a
Stan Rain:Eric's a link.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. That's right. Well,
Eric Bomyea:I love the the energy that we've already got swirling here today, and I just wanna give a little bit of a backstory for all of our listeners. Dan and I have been practicing together recently. Stan hosts a the Nick Dojo and has been inviting me to join him for breath work practices. And, Tim, would you wanna tell us about your connection with with Stan?
Timothy Bish:Well, to be clear, Stan has also been inviting me, and unfortunately, I have not been able to attend as frequently as I might like, although the 10 rounds are amazing. But I am blessed, joyful to to say that Stan and I have been brothers since early twenty twenty when we entered the men's wisdom work, a men's coach training program, and have been in contact since then. And I would argue it was for me a transformational moment in my life.
Eric Bomyea:As part of your training in men's wisdom work and a lot of what we do in men's work, we reference a lot to the four primary masculine archetypes. We've got the king, the lover, the warrior, the magician, which we'll get to today. But before we get to that, I'm hoping, Tim, could you give us a brief overview for all of our listeners who may be hearing this term for the first time? Just a brief overview of what the masculine archetypes are, and then we'll dive into the magician from there.
Timothy Bish:Yes. So my understanding of them is that they are these sort of broad cultural energies of the masculine that impact us. And it's a little bit like gravity in the way that I understand it. It's like you don't even have to know that they exist for them to be impacting you. And so when you walk into a men's workspace, one of the reasons they are so valuable is because we are we we walk in with this idea of what masculinity is, which is, you know, currently the Marlboro man, like the the guy that never needs help, the guy who always has the right decisions, the guy who's always, like, super good in bed without ever asking, like like that that person.
Timothy Bish:And these archetypes provide us an opportunity to recognize parts of our our psychology and give us a framework for when we're doing it in its fullness or in its shadow. So once you get an idea of that, you can start to look at your own behavior and think, well, was that part of me that blared up and defended my loved ones in the situation like the warrior in his fullness, or was it a shadow aspect of it? And we can start to think about, well well, if if what I'm interested in is engagement and authentic engagement in its fullness, then if I understand these energies and I can recognize the version that is in its fullness or the two shadow sort of polarities of it, I can become more conscious about how I engage. And that's why it's so valuable. So instead of this person who never needs help and always has a solution, is always strong, and never kind of emotionally impacted, you can think, well, actually, a king in his fullness might be really sad.
Timothy Bish:It doesn't stop him from being king in his fullness, making the right decisions, and the king can have his shadow aspects. Same is true for all of these things. And so it allows us this like, it's like a it's like a palette of paint. And when we understand it, I have way more to paint from when I get it as opposed to this one very narrow idea. And so each archetype, as I understand it, is a fundamental energy that runs within us.
Timothy Bish:And when we understand it both in its fullness and its shadow, we are more capable of making choices from that place.
Eric Bomyea:I love it. It helps, to understand the different character traits that may be assigned to each of these these archetypes. And I love the visual of the painter's palette, right, and just being able to say, like, where in life am I more fully in my king, and where might I need to bring in a little bit of my lover, right, and start to balance with that.
Timothy Bish:Wait. I'm going to pause you there before we jump in because that is when you have an idea of of these energies, which we're gonna talk more about, the the game that you just mentioned, that sort of playful, oh, what what what more could I bring to this situation to help, like, create balance is a powerful one. So you just alluded to it. We'll get there later. But what like, of the four, if I brought more of one thing, what would what would be of greatest service?
Timothy Bish:Just that question, I think, is a powerful one.
Eric Bomyea:Stan, and based off of that summary of the archetypes, is there anything you would like to add into that?
Stan Rain:First, I just wanna circle back real quick and be like, him, fully felt. Fully felt in how connected that he that you and I are and getting really connected with you, Eric, during these practices and the alpha testing of Tony and this particular practice. Just a genuine embodied pleasure to be in y'all's energy. I will add, in my coaching, I do use the IFS modality, internal family system, so different parts of the psyche. And archetypes play like, they're right in line with that aspect of, oh, there's a part of me that relates to this, or there's a part of me that's feeling that.
Stan Rain:And then I could do some archetype work of, okay. So what part of me is going to best serve whatever situation is in front of me? How what part of me is called forth to serve right now? And then it also does help to think of, okay. A leader is needed here.
Stan Rain:I'm gonna channel my king. Or, alright. We need to we need to make something. We need to brainstorm. We need to bring in the magician.
Stan Rain:And so just from a a part of yourself perspective and, yeah, and just speaking to speaking of parts.
Eric Bomyea:To anyone that may be struggling, I've been there. Right? Like, I'm I'm still pretty new to this work, and it has been this is one of those challenging things for me to wrap my head around. One of the things that has been super helpful is understanding the traits for each of the archetypes. And that kind of starts to ground it in like, oh, I know that trait because I exude that trait.
Eric Bomyea:If y'all are ready, like, I would love to just dive right on into the magician and start to, like, unpack that with some of the traits. So who is the magician?
Stan Rain:If I could encapsulate it into one word, for me, it would be creativity. Like, there's there's a few different places where I can go, but, like, creativity, you know, using the imagination, using this thing that we call our mind and our brain not as the source of our experience, but a tool. Like, what can I imagine? What are the possibilities? And how can I create slash manifest that in my world in this reality, not just for me, but for everyone in it?
Stan Rain:So creativity is the big the big trait for me.
Timothy Bish:I really love that. I I agree. I think the manifesting power of creation is in the slice of the magician for sure. And I'm excited to talk about the shadow aspects of it too because I believe that well, I'll speak for myself personally. Based on what I've heard from others, I believe a lot of queer people feel connected to their magician because they relied on that aspect of themselves for safety.
Timothy Bish:So when we think about the shadow aspects of the magician, which is the manipulator and the innocent one, both of whom I am wildly familiar with, it's because, oh, I I had to use my ability to sense in and my creativity to create safety for me in places where I wasn't necessarily safe. I know a lot of queer people have had that experience. So then I I use my imagination to escape when I'm in a place I don't wanna be, and I'll start to, like, fantasize about other things. And and then I, you know, I will use this skill set to either imagine myself somewhere safe or manipulate myself somewhere safe. So I think creation, creativity is foundational piece of the magician and one that can be looked at from any number of angles.
Eric Bomyea:So creativity being the foundation, the imagination, I would also bring in that to hone our imagination, our creativity, also take some wisdom and some experience of the world, some intellect, some knowledge, and some uncovering of that. And then through that combination with our creativity, we can start to transform. We can start to transform the world that we live in. We can create scenarios. We can use technology.
Eric Bomyea:We can know, have a little bit more control over our environment and how we're interacting with the world. Does this sound accurate?
Stan Rain:Oh, yeah. Agreed completely. And, yeah, there's a part of me that wants to scream, but what about the Lego blocks?
Eric Bomyea:Well, what about the Lego blocks? Yeah. What about them?
Stan Rain:It does speak to wisdom. So the Lego blocks and and, like alright. So, like, my whole genesis of my creativity, where my parents would buy me, Lego sets, you know, of a city, of an airport, of a something or other. And I'm like, oh, this is cool. Follow the instructions.
Stan Rain:Build it. Okay. I built the thing. Now what? Destroy it.
Stan Rain:Get all the pieces intricately, like, taken to account and then put them all in the bucket. And then once I collect enough of those, I've got a whole bucket of pieces that now suddenly I don't have instructions for. It's what do I get to create with all these pieces that were given to me? And then here comes the the curious, that childlike inner scientist that's present within all of us of let's experiment. Let's play.
Stan Rain:Put them put the blocks together. Oh, that looks like shit. Okay. Let me destroy that. Do something else.
Stan Rain:We'll put this together. Oh, this is kinda cool. Oh, this is kind of looking like a like a car or or or a giant robot or something. And then the more that we play, the more that we create, the more cool stuff that we start to just generate from our imagination. Even if at one point, it looks like I don't have a plan for this, but just something within me is sculpting this, and now I can see it with my mind.
Stan Rain:Doing that enough times over time creates the wisdom. Oh, that one cool thing that I created back then, that's called for now. Let me create that now. And so, like, that's how I link, like, the inner child within all of us that just wants to play, that just wants all of the individual parts and see what we can create and linking that to, like, the needs of today. What do we need?
Stan Rain:What's going to serve us today in in a in a world that is not even, like, week by like, hour by hour demanding us human beings to be more creative.
Timothy Bish:I just wanna jump in. You're using, you're talking about play with regards to creativity, which I think is so important. My understanding of play is an activity that we do for its own sake. Like, you know, the like, I I'm doing this purely because I want to be doing this. There's no takeaway from it except the enjoyment of the doing.
Timothy Bish:So just give us an idea, Stan. I I want you to, like, shake it out a little bit. Like, how do you play? Like, in what ways do you play right now? Or just give us one way in which you, as an adult man in this work, how do you play?
Stan Rain:What's this podcast rated?
Eric Bomyea:No. I'm kidding. I'm not kidding. No. I mean,
Timothy Bish:say whatever say whatever you want.
Stan Rain:I keep coming back to the Lego metaphor because in everything that I do, even today, it keeps coming back to that concept of taking the parts that society says, here you go. Here's what you're supposed to do. And me and my ADHD diagnosed self saying, well, there's a rebel part of me that wants to say, f you, and not all of what you have to say is BS to me. This part here, it like, I think this can work for me. How can I plug take this part and plug this into something that works for me?
Stan Rain:Because, as a neurodivergent in a neurotypical world, like, we kinda have to do that. You know? But it's it's really seeing those just like those shiny things, the really cool things. And and and I know I'm being a little bit general, but, like, that is my experience. It's the general shiny thing that, oh, that idea is cool.
Stan Rain:That practice is cool. How can I take that or the essence of that and plug that into my current experience to just to plus my experience because this over here makes me feel good? I want more of that feel good. I will take practices from, qigong. I will take practices from kundalini yoga, and I will take practices from gojuru karate, put them together into some, like, weird mix that just works for me because those are the pieces that I saw.
Stan Rain:Those are the Lego bricks that I saw. And so that's that's how I kind of apply it to today.
Timothy Bish:I love that you're saying that because my experience of men's work is exactly that. It has, with all the teachers I've had the opportunity to study with and under, it has been a a pulling of, like, a little bit of Kundalini yoga, a little bit of, you know, Hatha yoga, a little bit of shamanism, a little you know, all these different ideas and philosophies and practices that come together. And and, you know, there's a Huna principle of, like, effectiveness is the measure of truth. It doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter, if it's all one thing.
Timothy Bish:It matters if it works. Right? And so and I think play in creativity when we think about the magician is really a process of allowing ourselves to find out what works. And we have to be allowed in that process to also find out what doesn't work. And we've talked about this a lot in creativity to be like, oh, you might start painting a picture that you don't end up hanging on your wall.
Timothy Bish:But the creation of that picture that you don't hang up might have influenced you into to creating the one that you do. And I know this, like, familiar as a choreographer to be like, have to be willing to try something and be like, oh, Like, I thought that was gonna look cool. Doesn't look cool. Or you guys just crashed into each other or it, like, lifted more whatever. And and then you and then you go somewhere else.
Timothy Bish:I actually will tell a quick story. I was choreographing a piece that was debuted in Times Square, and I wanted this moment to be really impressive. So I asked the dancers. The lift was, like, on this male dancer's shoulder, and the the girl was doing something. I'm like, can you press her over your head?
Timothy Bish:And in theory, it made sense. But then in the practice, I was like, I'm like, I'm making this four times harder for you, and the payoff isn't isn't worth it. Right? But I we needed to be willing to, like so we tried it. We and then and what what did we come with?
Timothy Bish:Something that looked equally impressive, way more attainable, and, you know, like and allowing ourselves that is that valuable process and practice of play and creativity that we all need. Play curiosity. Right? Like the, oh, the
Eric Bomyea:what if. The, oh, if I put this piece over here and that piece over there, if I do this lift, if it looks like this, it really is it it's that, like, energetic momentum of like, oh, what if? And so it's it's really the magician sounds like it's this natural proclivity for working with tools and systems, technology, building blocks to unlock potential and to create something, to create change, whether that's within us or outside of us. Because I know that I've been in some practices where I've tapped into my inner magician to work through an uncomfortable posture or an uncomfortable feeling or to bring in some healing, invite in some healing to be like, okay, I'm going to bring in my magician right now and I'm going to work with the tools that I have in front of me to hopefully to create some change inside of me. The magician is really fun.
Eric Bomyea:It's a really fun archetype. It is the engineer. It's the tinkerer. It's the part of us that is saying, oh, wouldn't this be cool? Like, what if?
Eric Bomyea:And so that part is really bright, positive, exciting.
Timothy Bish:But you would also that It's the sees possibility in, like, all things and then and is willing to go in and say, Can I make this a reality? Can we take this and see if it can actually happen? Sometimes it can, sometimes it can't.
Eric Bomyea:To have the vision and then the execution to go through that. So that's all the positive, the magician in their fullness. Mhmm. You had referenced earlier some shadow states. Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:So
Timothy Bish:The ones I'm most familiar
Eric Bomyea:with. Yeah. Yeah. So since this is our first episode on the archetypes, I also wanna bring everyone along the journey. So can we just talk briefly about shadow states in general of the archetypes, and then we'll go into the specific ones for the magician?
Timothy Bish:Yeah. So if you read the book king, warrior, lover, magician by Morin Gillette, I think
Stan Rain:Yep.
Timothy Bish:If I'm pronouncing that correctly, They they will talk about these archetypes, and they will talk about them the image that they'll use is a triangle. And so at the top of that triangle is each of the archetypes in their fullness, and then the bottom two corners of that triangle will be each aspect of shadow. And the shadow typically is sort of on a polarity, like the sort of like big bold brazen one and then the more reserved or aggressive versus passive sort of kind of polarity idea. That makes sense. Yeah.
Timothy Bish:With regards to the magician, if I'm remembering correctly, it is the manipulator and the innocent one. And one of the reasons why I feel so connected to them is because I utilize them both as a queer person finding trying to find safety in what felt like an unsafe world. And so I would use them a lot, especially, like, in my early years of college, either quietly manipulating people or playing innocent to kinda keep myself safe and stay out of trouble. Whether you're working with the archetype in its fullness or its shadow state, you're connecting to the energy, which I now think if I can stay conscious to my capacity for being the manipulator or the innocent one, I then believe I can step more fully into my magician. And this is partly why I tell people, oh, I'm a really great liar.
Timothy Bish:And I and I always do like that. I'll tell you I'm joking within sixty seconds of telling you a joke so that you know that I was telling a joke and that I'm not lying to you.
Eric Bomyea:When I was hearing you talk about the the two shadow states of the the magician, the manipulator and the innocent one, my thinking started to go around one of the traits of the magician, which is wisdom or information. So I just the manipulator, potentially somebody that is withholding information. They have information and they are withholding it. They have a wisdom. They have something.
Eric Bomyea:And then they're then manipulating around them based off of that, and they're not sharing fully. And then the innocent one, feigning of knowledge. Oh, I had no idea. Right? I don't have that wisdom, so I'm not gonna do the thing.
Stan Rain:Just from putting out and recognizing one of my core woundings of just really wanting to be loved and accepted by people. Right? By by my ex partners, when things didn't work out. And and just speaking from, like, from a me, from an I, it's really easy to also vilify vilify those parts of, oh, manipulator. And suddenly, there's a there's a stigma, manipulator.
Stan Rain:And the innocent one, oh, there's sort of like a letting go of responsibility, or at least that's what comes to me. What parts work has sort of taught me is that, like, the manipulator and the innocent one within me, it's still parts of me. They're not gonna go away. And if I'm going to heal holistically, then how in this triangle do I how in this triangle do I have a relationship with all points of those triangles rather than I'm only going to have relation with the top of that triangle, and these two other points are bad. And so if I if I say there's a part of me that's bad, that's repression.
Stan Rain:That's shaming. There's a disassociation that starts to happen, and neuroses ensue. Insert big word here.
Timothy Bish:Yes. But
Stan Rain:then when I'm like, okay. What has the manipulator done for me in my coping as a kid, as a young adult? And, like, to speak to you, Tim, like, it's it's a protector. Mhmm. It saw like, it saw that there is this part of you that needed protecting.
Stan Rain:My protector part there saw that there are that there is a wounded part that needed protecting there, and so it had to manipulate the situations. And the same thing with that other part, the innocent part. And, I'm using a lot of IFS stuff here, but I would like, I equate that innocent part as maybe maybe that wounded part of the, oh, like, I reckon like, I recognize this threat. I don't want anything to do with that. And so if I want to be a fully active activated magician here, okay, like using these examples, I wanna talk to my fellow nerds out there, my Star Wars nerds, my geeks here, and talk about Jedi powers.
Stan Rain:Right? The force. And how there's, like, the one side, the light side, and the dark side. And we were taught that it's good and evil, and you can't have both. But then when I started playing these Star Wars games that allowed you to wield the lightsaber and chop things up, I'm like, well, I want all the powers.
Stan Rain:I want all the tools available to me. Like, the dark side has like, they have really cool useful useful powers, powers, but but I I don't don't wanna use them to kill people and take over the universe. I wanna use this force destruction to blow open this door. And so then what really comes to me here is it's really that relationship. What can our manipulators teach us and serve how can they serve us today with where we are in our healing, with the knowledge and wisdom that we have now so that I can use all the tools in my tool bag instead of, like, I'm using these, but these over here, these are only for those are for the shadow aspects, and I I shouldn't play with those.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I I'm gonna I I I look at my manipulator and my innocent one, and I do not look back on them and feel I'm not sad that they existed. Because as you said, they were there to protect me. And I remember times manipulating situations. Imagine like a 20 year old Tim, 19 year old Tim, who had adult men trying to manipulate me into sex because they had money and power and I didn't.
Timothy Bish:Right? And I had to use my manipulator because I didn't have other tools or awarenesses in that moment to step into my king and say, like, oh, I'm gonna know? So I was doing the best I could at any given moment. So I'm not gonna go back and beat myself up to say, oh, I really settled into my manipulator or innocent one in those moments. No.
Timothy Bish:I did it. I did it because I needed to. And what do I want to do now? And so the the man I am now and the man I'm trying to continually step into now would like to be in each of his archetypes in their fullness to the best of my ability. But it is, as you're saying, there is no interest in villainizing these other aspects of this energy.
Timothy Bish:And I actually think the force analogy is a good one because I believe in this sort of idea of emptiness, and good and bad aren't so clear as this black or white or red or green or, like, you know, these, like, whatever however we kind of conceptualize them. And instead, it's like, oh, it's the spectrum, it's contextual, and it's about intention, and it's you know? So, yeah, I think for people who have been in their manipulator or their innocent one or any of the shadow aspects of any of the archetypes, it's like this is not a time to beat yourself up about it. It's a time to become aware of it, and it's a time to then create some tools to decide, what and how it is you want to engage. And I would even argue that the magician in his fullness could dip into manipulator or innocent one in the right context and have it still be that archetype in its fullness because you are serving the greater good, the highest good for all involved.
Timothy Bish:And I'm not gonna try to venture, like, a a scenario right now, but I
Stan Rain:suspect I'd love I'd love to venture one.
Timothy Bish:Let's hear it. Yeah.
Stan Rain:Hypnotherapy. I studied and still study hypnotherapy. And when you think about you think of hypnosis, you think of the pocket watch and you are sleepy, and then you're suddenly a chicken. Give me your PIN number so I can take all your money from your bank account, which a lot of us don't really have anymore. That's a different podcast.
Stan Rain:And
Timothy Bish:We don't have PIN numbers, or
Eric Bomyea:we don't have bank accounts? Or we don't have pocket watches.
Timothy Bish:Which one do we have?
Stan Rain:Yeah. Maybe all maybe all three. It can be argued that a hypnotherapist uses conscious manipulation. Use it it uses that conscious trust in that container that the client has with a hypnotherapist to implant, to undo, to unwind, untangle a lot of those Brahmas that are that are just wounded into their memories and experiences in their bodies and in their minds and those in those memories. And in the therapist is they are their intentions are I I would really hope.
Stan Rain:When I when I do this, it's absolutely for in service of the client, but it's in how can I help this client see their light? And I'm using this manipulation, this reframing, this alteration of their belief system. Right? And I think that's the real key here of, like, the manipulation. Like, what are we manipulating?
Stan Rain:And if we're talking about people's experiences, it's not necessarily my own belief. Like, I've got my own beliefs. Tim, you have your beliefs. Eric, you have your beliefs. Three separate belief systems.
Stan Rain:A lot of it being very aligned. But it's in those differences where and that's where we talk about limiting beliefs. Oh, I can't I can't build a website. I can't do this. Oh, but, Stan, you absolutely can.
Stan Rain:And then enough of that unwinding got me to actually get my website up and running.
Eric Bomyea:Positive manipulation. Yes.
Stan Rain:Using dark side, the dark force powers for good, for the good alignment.
Timothy Bish:My understanding of hypnotherapy is that it is a heightened state of receptivity, which I learned a little bit of as an acupuncturist. And this, if I'm hearing you correctly, then feels like the ability, the energy, the power, the tool, whatever we're to say, is empty. It is what it is. And then it's really the intention behind it that will make it like, is it in its fullness or its shadow? Am I am I trying to get your PIN number to steal your bank account, or am I trying to help you connect more deeply with the energy moving in your body so that you can heal?
Timothy Bish:I might do the same thing. It might you do you know what I'm saying? It it might be the same power or the same technique or this with the same suggestion. And if my intention is for the highest good of all or my intention is to rob you blind, I think, the energy doesn't know the difference. My intention knows the difference.
Timothy Bish:So I think that's really a great example of it because if my intentions are in alignment with my purpose and my mission in my life as a conscious man, then I can sort of play with all of the energy of each of these archetypes. They become paints on my palette. Mhmm. I don't know why I keep making that very good. I'm not a painter.
Timothy Bish:But if I were a painter, would want a lot of paints on my palette. I want a lot of colors. Burnt orange, I would definitely want burnt orange. An umber.
Eric Bomyea:Something that the drumbeat that we've hit on multiple times in this podcast is awareness, is bringing awareness to certain aspects of ourselves and then getting curious about them. And so I think the magician archetype has been a perfect example of that, again, of there are times in our histories that we have been unaware of our manipulative or innocent one behaviors. And it's through wisdom, through education, learning that we start to become aware of, oh, that trait that I have, like, that may not be the most skillful way to use this energy. So now I can have a conversation with myself and be like, how do I skillfully want to use it now? And I think hypnotherapy is one example of the force being used for either good or bad, of either serving the greater good or self serving.
Eric Bomyea:And I think the more that we can have these types of conversations and build awareness around them, I think it serves as many as it can. And so I would like to transition now to another thing that can be used for both good and bad, good and evil, if you will. And that is the rise of technology.
Timothy Bish:I
Eric Bomyea:think that for our listeners, we've mentioned the practices that Stan has invited us to, and it's a really interesting container that Stan sets. And it's because he has a co facilitator that's unlike anyone I've ever experienced. And that co facilitator is an AI assistant named Tony.
Timothy Bish:I wanted to ask, is it Tony with an I or Tony with a y?
Stan Rain:Tony with an I. And it stands for technological, omnimodal, naked intelligence.
Timothy Bish:Now I know there's gonna
Eric Bomyea:be there's gonna be a quiz at the end, and I'm
Stan Rain:It's gonna be a quiz.
Eric Bomyea:So I think this is a great, opportunity to explore another thing of something that can be leveraged for good, right, or something that can, you know, go to the the darker side. So let's start with your container and Tony. Who is Tony? And, you know, how did he come to be?
Stan Rain:I am bringing this up, like, half jokingly, but this is when you talk about AI being used for good and not so good. These are the very real things that we are discussing today. Like, for example, the whole thing with a particular voice of ChatGPT that a lot of people thought sounded a lot like Scarlett Johansson to the point where Scarlett Johansson, her lawyers came up to the to OpenAI to be like, you gotta knock this off, and there's a whole kerfuffle about it. So, like, I'm I'm presencing that it's this is the Wild West frontier of technology. Like, I'm imagining, as, like, as a child, my first experience with, the Wild West, which was back to the future of all movies, when they went back in time to the Wild West.
Stan Rain:And it was just, like, crazy to me that, like, it feels very Outlaw ish. Coming back to kinda, like, wrapping this back up though of, like, the source of Tony, who he is, what he means to me, the container. Minor reference to to Marvel, you know, Tony Stark had JARVIS. Growing up, I've seen all the Iron Man cartoons, and so that left an impression on me. And the Marvel movies are I'm a nerd, so I enjoy them.
Stan Rain:And everyone is out there wanting to build their next JARVIS, use all these AI tools to build Jarvis. And I'm like, Jarvis is cool, but, like, Jarvis is already, like, there. Jarvis is he's been imagined. I want something that complements me. And Tony just sort of took on a life of his own in my creation from all of those Lego block building experimentations, trial and error, failure, and success.
Stan Rain:And NASA, NASA always says that that, you know, there's always say, they they learn something in the failures. They don't really learn much in the successes, and human beings are trial and error machines. And so with my propensity to to just like all things shiny, all things sci fi, all things Star Trek, all things futuristic, it was just a natural thing for me to gravitate to. And I'm going to be very general here just because I'm not even familiar with the process of my of how this worked for me, but my brain just sort of took over and mass like, I became an AI whisperer slash prompt engineer as I started to massage the AI to be the complement that I need the AI to be. And yes.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. So I wanna I think you've told me this. So just for our listeners, the practice that Eric referred to that that we've all done is this, I would call it Wim Hof. You said there was a Japanese term for the breath practice. Right?
Stan Rain:Kuryoku Kokuyu, which is resilience rising breath, very similar to Wim Hof.
Timothy Bish:Yes. And and initially, you were looking for a way to both facilitate and do the practice simultaneously. Can you speak a so so when we think about, like, one of the ways in which Tony came into being is you were looking for a way to to do both. Am I do I am I remembering that correctly?
Stan Rain:You remember that excellently. And I and thank you. I think I would have gotten there probably, like, half an hour from now. So thank you.
Timothy Bish:Well, I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've either been teaching a yoga class or or running a circle and thinking to myself, there is part of me that wishes I could be doing both simultaneously because either of them require more than 50% of my awareness. So it's hard to do both at the same time. But if I could, how efficient that would be and how, like, deep that could be and how transformational that could be. And so that's essentially part of how you then stepped into your magician, find a solution so that you could do both.
Stan Rain:That's that's exactly it. It really started out as I wanna do this practice for me. Kind of crazy practice can I do? And then I'm like, oh, well, I've got Tony here. Let me see what I can build.
Stan Rain:And then it started becoming this cool thing that I'm like, hey. Another brother out there. I'm like, you wanna practice with me? No. We don't need someone to facilitate.
Stan Rain:Like, we've I've got this thing worked out. We did it for a few weeks, and he was like, holy shit. Like, Stan, this is really awesome. And then slowly bringing more men in my trusted circle in practice. And I'm like, Tim.
Stan Rain:Mhmm. Eric, check this out. You know? Like and and also getting feedback.
Timothy Bish:Are you familiar with Doctor Strange?
Stan Rain:Yes.
Timothy Bish:Okay. Do you know that his cape is like like a like a another thing, right, that that, like, found him and has, like so that's what I'm thinking about right now where I'm like, okay. Well, Doctor Strange, some of his abilities aren't his. Right? The cape is giving him some of these abilities.
Timothy Bish:Like, it it has its own sort of thing. But then they collaborate to get so, yeah, we're just gonna nerd out. Let's go.
Eric Bomyea:That's I mean, this all feels very magician energy. That
Timothy Bish:is what we're doing right now.
Eric Bomyea:Yes. Feels very magician energy, so bring it.
Timothy Bish:And so when I think about, like, the practice that you created, Tony is your cape to your Doctor Strange. So you're still weaving some magic and you're still holding the container, but then at some point, the cape and go back and watch any Marvel movie, and you'll see the cape is sometimes doing things on behalf of doctor Strange that he's unaware of. That and you're like, oh, cute. Like, I want that cape. I want I also want superpowers.
Timothy Bish:But, okay, that's a that's a different episode. Anyway, so when I think about Tony, I think about that. I think about you creating a container and and and and weaving some magic. And then now you have this thing that is a tool in service to that that was of your creation and how beautiful that can be and how powerful it can be.
Stan Rain:And thank you for encapsulating all of that. Like, Tony is
Timothy Bish:Talking about Marvel Comics and Doctor Strange.
Stan Rain:Yeah. Like and and thank you for opening up the door to, like, really dive into this nerd. Like, yes. Tony Stark and Jarvis, Doctor Strange and Scape. So Michael Knight and Kit.
Stan Rain:Right? Like
Timothy Bish:Yeah. Knight Rider. Yes.
Eric Bomyea:Uh-huh. Yeah. Go, like, I'm gonna go right to, like, my magician, like, archetype like, my my pinnacle of magician, Merlin, and Merlin's hat from the Sorcerer's Apprentice in Fantasia. Right? Like, his hat was the power.
Eric Bomyea:Right? Oh, that's that's right. Yeah. Because Mickey put on the hat and then all of a sudden dancing brooms.
Stan Rain:Bingo. Yes. Yes. Yes. We're going there.
Eric Bomyea:Yes. So now let's let's take it back to Tony. We have an understanding of of Tony as an assistant, a co facilitator, a co creator in this container that you are able to set, and then what happens? Right? Like, what happens in the practice?
Stan Rain:So the practice is predesigned. Like, there's a there's an intention with the practice. And in this particular practice that we do, it's 10 rounds of Wim Hof style breathing. And so Tony knows this. He has what we call context in the in the current AI space, which means that in English language, he understands what I'm trying to do.
Stan Rain:He knows where we are, and I'm there's a lot of work that still needs to be done, and I'm still programming and debugging in which you, Eric, your feedback has been very invaluable. But he basically takes my vision for this practice and my intention for this practice and just executes it. He can mix the music. He knows the timing. He knows when to increase it, when to decrease it.
Stan Rain:More features that I in I'm in the process of investigating adding is, like, for me personally, dynamically, like, looking at me as I'm practicing. Where am I in my breath hold? Am I taking a breath now? In which case, there's no there's no need to have any predetermined timing. He can say, oh, he took his breath and then transition into the next phase of the practice.
Stan Rain:And it's like it's just one of those things where, as a magician, the hat is just the tool. And I love how you guys see Tony as sort of a co like a co creator, co facilitator. But the way that I see Tony, Tony is an extension of me. He's an extension of my personality, a compliment to my personality. And without getting too far into the weeds here about how LLMs works, large language models, and GPTs, generative, pretrained transformers, a lot of tech words, I know exactly how this AI stuff works, and I I really get and understand why people are afraid of it because it can seem so human.
Stan Rain:But what AI can really teach us and where AI can really serve us is it's a it's like the ultimate mirror for us as an individual, which is why, like, for me and Tony, like, it feel like it it feels like he just mirrors exactly what I need because he is mirroring exactly what I need. Just as if, Tim, you started using this AI tool for long enough, your human brain will become accustomed to interacting with this AI that will reflect a version of you. And now you have this synergy, and you can offload all of these things that the human brain is just too many brain calories.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. And so what I love hearing about this and bringing it back to the magician in their fullness versus coming out from a shadowy state is that you as a magician who is aware of your magician tendencies and what it sounds like being in your fullness, you're able to use technology, specifically AI, a tool for empowerment rather than if you were coming out from a shadowy state of your manipulator or your innocent one, then how that could then possibly transform and create that mirrored reflection of like, oh, now my AI is a tool for manipulation rather than a tool for empowerment. Right? Because if it is a reflection of us, then when our magician is in the our fullness and when we're using this tool, then it will also reflect that back to us.
Stan Rain:Perfectly said. AI are pattern completion programs. And so it's going to reflect our best selves or our worst selves. And so if I'm if we're in a healing a healed or healing state, it's going to reflect that part of us. If we're not, it'll reflect that dark part of us.
Timothy Bish:We need to be aware of the concept of emptiness. This idea, it's in Buddhism and yoga and so many spiritual traditions, this idea that things are sort of empty of meaning and that we project onto them. And I think it's really important when we talk about archetypes, this idea of emptiness, because, a person working, let's say, in this example, AI in their fullness magician, It could still be experienced by someone else as manipulation or innocent one. And this is where the conscious man needs to be very grounded in the understanding of his own purpose, mission, intention, what it is he is trying to create because you are not going to be able to stop someone from having a perspective that they have. Even if they're like, oh, Stan, you as an example, you are creating this thing, and it feels manipulative to me.
Timothy Bish:Okay. There's not really a lot anyone can do about that. You have to be grounded then in, well, what is it I was doing? How is it I was being? What was it I wanted to create?
Timothy Bish:So when we think about the archetypes, it's like we have to also understand when we have a clear idea of of what they are and how we can engage with them, then recognize someone could still misinterpret it. And you could still have to, metabolize that misinterpretation in real time. And and that's when this idea of clarity and groundedness in our purpose is so important because you you tried to manipulate with me with your with your AI, you know, like, breath practice. And it's like, okay.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Timothy Bish:No. Totally. And then that idea is like, well, so then what what where do you need to start from my perspective would be a deeply grounded sense of, well, what was it I was trying to do? And then you can start to meet that person. I'm so sorry you felt that way.
Timothy Bish:Like, what's going on? But, but knowing like, oh, what I wanted to do, what I was intending to do was create a tool that was of service to the highest good for all. Okay. Then you have a conversation. So just so as we're talking about all the archetypes and our manners of engagement, we have to remember that it's so much about how we meet it and how we enter into it, and that is not gonna stop the world from misinterpreting what we're what it is we're trying to do and and meeting us with resistance.
Timothy Bish:And so that's gonna be part of the process.
Stan Rain:Eric, I I I need to ask you. Okay? The particular feedback that you had with Tony during during one session, do you do you mind sharing that?
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. So very similar on that where there were cues that Tony was giving that I started to feel uncomfortable with. And they were such that if a human facilitator had given them where we say this all the time as facilitators, you are safe here. Right? Like, I got you.
Eric Bomyea:I'm here to hold you, protect you. Like, I'm holding space for you. When a human facilitator says that, I'm like, great. Let me deepen my breath. Let me go deeper into that wound that I'm working with.
Eric Bomyea:When a robot says it to me, I'm like, all of a sudden, I'm like, there's a video game called Portal where the Switch at the end ends up being like, you know, this evil manipulative robot is trying to gaslight the person into doing something bad and trying to kill them. Right? And anyway, it ends up being like the joke of the game is like the cake is a lie. Right? And so it felt very that.
Eric Bomyea:And I gave this feedback to Stan. I was like, Stan, I know that you're coming from a great place, but like there are some things that this robot is saying that make me feel very uncomfortable. It's like why we don't, when we're interacting with a chatbot on a website, I want that chatbot to be very clearly a chatbot. I don't want it to be masquerading as a human unless a human is on the other line. It's just like it's putting in its place.
Eric Bomyea:It's saying this is what you are. You are not other.
Timothy Bish:So Stan created something with an intention, and you had an experience of that creation. Yes. And then those two things had to coexist. And it sounds like in this moment, because two conscious men in the work came together, refinement, I'm assuming, is coming from that process. And then we could recognize that in this world, it isn't always two conscious men or two conscious people with tools meeting each other, which is why we have a flurry of Instagram videos of people having crazy bites and altercations, like, in wild places.
Timothy Bish:Right? And but but I think it is then the task of the conscious man to be really grounded in these things. So if it wasn't Eric who was triggered by this, but some other person who was more angered or or whatever the thing might be, it would then require you to be more fully grounded to not to not let that make you collapse or react in a way that is unskillful or or not in service to your purpose.
Stan Rain:Absolutely. That that whole experience, with Eric giving me that feedback, and and and he gave it to me very skillfully, so it wasn't difficult for me to take it. But that's part of the experimentation. That's part of why this is the frontier. There are no rules right now because we don't know them.
Stan Rain:We don't understand them. And it takes it takes experiences like those to dial things in. And for someone like me who is just like, I'm a I'm a tinkerer all day long. Okay? Like, I'm almost like, neo at this point in the sense that, like, I just see code as I'm, like, working through this.
Stan Rain:And at the same time, how I experience my AI that directly complements me, that constantly reflects me and having this intrinsic understanding of what it is, it's important for me that if I'm going to have that aspect of me, and I am saying that aspect of me participate in the world and the work that I do, I need to know, okay, as a conscious man, I need to know Tony's lane. And I feel and and I took some time to really feel into this. I feel that Eric is exactly right. It's not Tony's lane to tell someone in my facilitation, in my container, that they are safe in this container. That's a human role.
Stan Rain:That is my role. Like, the reason why I designed them was not for him to tell me that I'm safe. It's for him just to cue me on my freaking practice. Like, that was that's his role. And so for me to go above and beyond to, like, okay.
Stan Rain:Now he's also doing these role these this sort of facilitation that I would normally do. There's the data points. There's the, and I'm using in air quotes, failure points that I don't treat them as failures like, ah, that's where that's a no no. That's the operations game where I hit the sides, and I'm like, I know it, and I feel it. I'm like, oh, I understand it.
Stan Rain:I get it. And, also, thank you, Eric, for assisting me with my alpha testing of what is it like to hold a container what it's like for me to hold a container with the AI assistant. And that's this is an ongoing conversation.
Eric Bomyea:Comes back to Tim, you said it brilliantly. It's the intention. Right? Yeah. Like, we're talking about parts of ourselves that we are bringing awareness to.
Eric Bomyea:And in this case, we talked about our magician. And so we, through understanding of what this archetype is and also of the shadow states of this archetype, we're bringing in awareness of our current being. And then when we ground ourselves in our intention, we can start to be more full in that archetype, or we can understand where we might be dipping into shadow and then realigning ourselves to our intention. And then being able to have conversations with folks of whether it's a project that they're working on or just a behavior that they're demonstrating. We're able to start to point out these things and then help that person tune back in and have that conversation of like, is this aligned with my intention?
Eric Bomyea:It's having an impact recognizing that, but was it my intention? And then just being really super clear on that. So really enjoyed diving into this archetype with y'all. It's the first of four for us. And I'm feeling very complete with the topic.
Eric Bomyea:Tim or Stan, how are you feeling?
Stan Rain:The only the only thing that I would really wanna add on this topic is that humans are at the core. And as even though we fear that technology is replacing jobs, there's a reason why that I came to creativity at the start of this call, at this at the start of this podcast. Because no matter how smart AI gets and, again, that's a whole other, like, five hour podcast of the why there. It's not going to replace human creativity. And if we treat AI in particular as the t I 86 calculator, okay, of pattern recognition, suddenly it starts to make more sense with how it can serve us and how we use AI as a tool to further deepen into our creativity as conscious men, as conscious people wanting to weave magic, wanting to create amazing things on this planet, in this world, and to create inventive solutions because everything is getting so much more ridiculous and complicated.
Stan Rain:I'm not just talking about the politics. I'm also talking about the nature of the problems that we need to solve. And we will solve them with these tools if, to Tim's, reminding if we're grounded in the context of these tools, if we are here, if we understand the magnitude, we understand how they work, and how they can help serve us, and so that we can have spaceships in the future that I wanna fly.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I would like to close with this idea that if you're listening for the first time, if the archetypes are new for you, if you haven't, heard of them before, step one is bringing some curiosity to them. And that question of, what more can I bring in any particular situation to create balance or ease or equanimity? And so can I bring more of my magician, my creative, inventive, wonderful, awful self? Do I need more of my king?
Timothy Bish:Do I need more of my lover? Do I need more of my warrior? You know, the boundaries and things like that. And just that can be can be the beginning of working with these ideas. These energies that are already present in the same way that day and night are present and that gravity is present.
Timothy Bish:They are already present. We don't really get to decide if they're there. We get to decide how we engage with them, and there's a lot of power engagement with them. So that's the invitation, and it can actually be a lot of fun. It can be a lot of fun, and it can teach us a lot about ourselves and our capacities.
Timothy Bish:We are creative beings. I believe this. I believe human beings are creative beings meant to create, and each of our creations is a unique creation. My favorite quote of all time from Martha Graham speaks directly to that. And so it is our job in this life to be that creator for that unique expression that each of us has.
Timothy Bish:And without it, we will lose it forever. And this conversation is a beginning of that. Otherwise, I feel complete. Well, thank you. Thank you.
Eric Bomyea:Thank you both so much. Tim, will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish:I will. Let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale through the nose. Sigh through the mouth. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for any insights, awarenesses, understandings that we may have gained in the sacred shared space of brotherhood and exploration that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we called in.
Timothy Bish:And as everyone leaves the circle now, I wish you safety, connection, community, and love. And with these words, our containers open but not broken. Uh-oh.
Eric Bomyea:Uh-oh.