![Q&A [Pt. 2/3] — What Does It Mean to Be a Man and What Is a Queer Man?](https://img.transistor.fm/qhL_nlnJ9-N2-PAiGhrvrSGoesDo-tmYJZCh6Z4XujU/rs:fill:0:0:1/w:800/h:800/q:60/mb:500000/aHR0cHM6Ly9pbWct/dXBsb2FkLXByb2R1/Y3Rpb24udHJhbnNp/c3Rvci5mbS82ZWQ5/MTBlMzY0NzBlMTQz/YTAzZTFiZjY5ZWJi/ZGUxOS5wbmc.webp)
Welcome back to our three part Q and A series. In this episode, we're going to ask, what does it mean to be a man? And what do we mean when we say queer men? Tim, are you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish:I'm ready. Let's go.
Eric Bomyea:How do you define what it means to be a man, and how has that changed for you over time?
Timothy Bish:It's interesting because it's such a simple question. And I suspect if we asked every man we could find, we would get a slightly different answer. But now having been in the men's work space and in healing spaces and yoga spaces and shamanic spaces, I think being a man is an unapologetic lived engagement in my life as the person I am fully, which is interesting because I feel like that definition would be true for all humans. We just have to recognize that to be a man or perceived as a man and to be a woman or perceived as a woman, there are there are external factors that sort of influence us. And so can I be a man?
Timothy Bish:Can I can I embody this physical vessel and allow myself to experience all the things that I'm capable of and that and that are natural to me? And can I do it skillfully? I think the question is really a human question, and then we and then we start to recognize the pressures or expectations that are placed on people that are perceived to be or identify as men versus those that are perceived to be or identified as women. Understood. So if someone is questioning about, like, should I
Eric Bomyea:be listening to your podcast, or should I be coming to your circles? Like, how would I know if I identify as a man?
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I mean, they they have to tell us. Right? I so the the when I first got into men's work, the rule was always the only criteria to be in a men's group is to be a man. And I have changed that for, you know, the queer community that I've been mainly serving and to say, well, the only criteria to be in a men's group is to be or identify as a man in whole or in part and have an interest in working on that part.
Timothy Bish:So for example, I have many nonbinary friends. You are welcome in the men's groups that we have if you wanna work on that male or masculine aspect of you. That to me feels like if that's a thing you want to explore and work on and it and it's a part of you, then you are welcome in my space. Now I don't know that that's I I can't speak for all men's spaces. That's true for my space.
Timothy Bish:If you wanna work on that part of you, then come. I have, I think, a pretty robust feminine part of me too, but I do not think that I am qualified yet to to lead that space if if there was a group that wanted to do the same thing for the feminine. Right? I would go to someone else's group if that if I wanted to do that. Does that make sense?
Timothy Bish:It does.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. So we're expanding the definition, right, that this is beyond sex and gender.
Timothy Bish:I don't believe and listen. I I lived in New York City for twenty five years. I've lived in Provincetown for three and a half years. If someone says they're a man, then then they're a man. And if and if they wanna work on that part of themselves in this way, then they are absolutely welcome to do that.
Timothy Bish:The the it's it's a little bit you know, it's it's kinda crazy. I don't wanna get into, like, a a conversation about trans people, but this idea of, like, well, I never think someone's less of a woman when they have a hysterectomy. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like that feel that feels that feels arbitrary to me. You're like, so so I don't care.
Timothy Bish:I don't care about anything except is there a part of you that is a man that wants to work on that?
Eric Bomyea:That is very it's very open, very welcoming, and very accepting. So I think that's really beautiful. And so we reference queerness instead in in your definition there. And so I'm curious now what do you think about the word queer, and what is a queer man?
Timothy Bish:Well, I love the word queer, and I know some people don't love the word queer, but I like it because I think it is really open. And I like to refer to myself as a queer person because I want every other person in our LGBTQIA two s plus community to know that they are safe with me. I think that queer people and queer men or gay men have a different or typically have a different relationship with the cultural idea of masculinity, and therefore, they they go through a slightly different process. So I remember when I first entered into men's workspaces, which was deeply populated by straight white men. And I remember thinking, oh, there seems to be this this shift where the the question is for many of these men, am I man enough?
Timothy Bish:But I have found with queer people, the question is a little bit more like, we still have am I man enough? If you if you identify as man, am I man enough? But also, am I a man? Or is this aspect of me, does that disqualify me somehow? And that and that comes from a lot of, like, messaging.
Timothy Bish:I certainly heard it. Questioning like, oh, if if you like this or if you're good at this or if you want to do this, well, then that that makes you a woman because only women should want to do that. And and so I think that process means that we've had to kind of wrestle with it differently.
Eric Bomyea:So is it fair to say that a queer man is anyone that deviates from the societal norm of what a man is?
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I've I'm feeling nervous about, like, locking myself down into a definition, but I think I think yes. Because I think queerness doesn't necessarily have to do with any particular sexual desire necessarily. So, yeah, I think I think yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna go with that for now.
Timothy Bish:It's a it's a deviation from this sort of that that sort of very binary idea of, you know, men and women, and it should be this and should be this. Like, there's a blue column and a pink column like that. And I think queerness is like, oh, I don't I'm not quite that. I'm I'm like a fuchsia. Yeah.
Timothy Bish:I'm like, you know you know, oh, I'm
Eric Bomyea:a fuchsia. I'm an indigo. Oh. Yeah.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Think You get what I'm saying, right?
Eric Bomyea:I do. I do. And I think that there's a lot of nuance there, so I think it's just helpful to give a little bit
Timothy Bish:of context there.
Eric Bomyea:And it's an evolving conversation. So I mean, this is something that we could revisit. That's why I started the question of like, and how has that changed over time? Because it may be our learned lived experience and awareness and understanding of it now, and that could be very different in a year, two years, five Well,
Timothy Bish:I mean, it's changed over time for me because when I the reason I went into men's work in the first place was because, you know, it was pandemic, but it was because, oh, I feel unsafe around men, and I wanted to start to work with that. Is it serving me to continually feel unsafe around straight men? So that's why I went into that program. And in so doing, I have created unbelievable connections with a lot of great men who were not showing up in the same way that some of the men who gave me very, very clear reason to be afraid of them, these men were showing up differently. And then it then I thought, oh, there's a lot of value here and a lot of value in a relationship with another man that is without agenda.
Timothy Bish:So we say in men's work all the time or my teacher says in men's work, Amir Kalligi says all the time, you know, this man across from you that wants nothing from you. I've added to that a little bit. And the way I say it is like, this man wants nothing from you but your fullness. Meaning, like, I don't I don't I don't need money from you. I don't need you.
Timothy Bish:I don't need you. I don't I don't desire you. I don't need anything. I just want all I want from you or for you is that you are your fullest self, and I'm wanting that for me too. And that's really beautiful.
Timothy Bish:And I have felt supported and buttressed in ways that I would never wanna give up. It's restored my faith in straight men, but more than that in humanity. And I think it required me doing some work around my fear, my justifiable fear. There was nothing wrong about my fear because you gave me reason to be afraid. But I thought, how long do I wanna be afraid?
Timothy Bish:Is this fear serving me? And so that's why I stepped into it.
Eric Bomyea:And in those spaces, what have you found that, queer men have to offer that may be unique in men's work spaces?
Timothy Bish:So in men's work thank you for that question. In men's work spaces, we often talk about masculine feminine, this sort of polarity of, like, energy. I like to think of it as yin and yang, sun and moon, alpha, omega, like, all these sort of, you know, things. And I think that queer men, for any number of reasons, tend to be more adept at ebbing and flowing between these energies. So I think that you know?
Timothy Bish:And and David Data talks about this in his book, Way of the Superior Man, where, you know, large majority of men are going to be masculine identified beings and the larger, you know, percentage of women. And then there's, like, these neutrally energized people. So, anyway, all that is to say, I can't tell you how many times I've been in a men's workspace, and this guy is talking about a conflict that he's having with his girlfriend. And he's so confused about it. I don't understand why she is doing this or not doing this or whatever the thing was.
Timothy Bish:And, you know, all the other guys are, like, nodding. And I remember being, like, the queer person there, and I'm like, I I think I totally understand why she's doing that. And I was and and part of it feeling like, I think maybe I'm tapping into my ability to to feel her her experience in a way that you can't. And I do remember one time, I actually had this sort of funny story where I reflected that back, and I had the whole Zoom room sort of just stare at me. They were like, I feel like they stared at me in the same way they would stare at their girlfriend or wife to be like, I don't I don't even I can't compute.
Timothy Bish:I'm like, she's not responding to the circumstance. She's responding to a pattern. She's upset about the pattern. She doesn't care about the socks or the dishes. She's upset about the pattern that that represents.
Timothy Bish:And they were like, you know, that so, like, I think there's I think there's opportunity and and, camaraderie there. You know, I think it takes a little bit of time. But the ability for queer men, I think we just are naturally more capable or, like, culturally more allowed to to feel and experience those parts of ourselves. Is there anything else on this topic of
Eric Bomyea:being a man or masculinity a rare man that you would like to say?
Timothy Bish:I would just like to say that, you know, these cultural ideas of what it means to be a man, right now, we still sort of live in this idea of, like, the strong man, the Marlboro man. You know? But if we look back through history, what it meant to be a man and the idea of the ideal man has evolved. You know, our founding fathers wore wigs and high heel shoes. I just wanna invite people into when you are looking for your most authentic expression, be mindful when you feel really attached to a moment in time.
Timothy Bish:You know, pink and blue that I think I referenced earlier, they were swapped at one time. Some of this stuff is arbitrary. Right? And so when in men's work, we're looking for authenticity. We're looking for, you know, authentic expression and truth and honesty.
Timothy Bish:And these things that we live through, like, they may feel like they're true for our whole lifetime. They might be true for our whole lifetime. That doesn't mean that they're true. They'll always be true or they've always been true. And once we start to think about that, you're like, oh, okay.
Timothy Bish:Well, some people that I revere and think of very strong men, George Washington crossing the Delaware in the depth of winter, like, feels intense. Right? Like, he might have been wearing a wig and high heels. And we start to broaden our idea of I mean, I don't know. He was on a boat.
Timothy Bish:Maybe he wasn't wearing heels. I don't know. But, you know, like but, like, when you start to recognize, like, lots of these things change. Why so if you're being really rigid, maybe question the rigidity.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a good opportunity to say it's not so black and white.
Timothy Bish:I do not know what shoes he was wearing on that boat. I don't know. Nor do I know his head. I knew he had, like, a triangular hat.
Eric Bomyea:In the painting. Right? That is then that's the thing. It's a it's a moment in time. It's capturing a moment in time through somebody else's perspective.
Eric Bomyea:We're not we were not there. So
Timothy Bish:We were not there. But the whole point being that our founding fathers presented in a very different way than the men we think of today. And so, oh, maybe the idea of what it means to be a man or a woman or a human or a father or a son or a lover or well, you know, whatever is an ongoing sort of slowly evolving thing. And when we have that awareness, oh, then maybe I don't have to be so stuck or hold other people to the same sort of stuckness.
Eric Bomyea:And so if you are listening and you're wanting to explore some of this rigidness that you've experienced in your life or you're wanting to explore other topics, head on over to myembodiment.com. We have weekly journal prompts. We have forums where we can discuss these things in spaces that we can hold each other and hold our experiences and witness each other. So check it out and we'll see you on the next one.