Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to share your favorite episode, leave a review, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, please send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. And now on to today's show.
Eric Bomyea:Today, we're joined by queer therapist Tom Bruwett. Tom is a founder of the Queer Relationship Institute and the author of the Go To Relationship Guide for Gay Men. He spent years helping queer folks build stronger relationships, starting with the one they have with their own bodies. For many of us, early sexual experiences were influenced by fear, secrecy, scarcity, and even performance. How have these messages impacted our connection to desire and pleasure?
Eric Bomyea:And what possibilities emerge when we bring awareness to these patterns and engage with our bodies more fully? Tim, Tom, are you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish:I'm ready.
Tom Bruett:I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea:Let's do this. Tom, I'm so glad that you're here with us. Welcome to the circle.
Tom Bruett:Thank you. I'm really, really excited to have this conversation with you both.
Eric Bomyea:So, Tom, you're the founder of the Queer Relationship Institute, where you provide therapy for queer individuals and couples as well as training for therapists working with queer relationships. Could you share more about the mission and the services of the institute?
Tom Bruett:Sure. Yeah, I just actually, before this call, had my final group of training with a group of therapists. I train a group of therapists from around the world in this model of relationship therapy that I do and it was our final session today and it was full of lots of, I mean, so many emotions of people just having the ability to kind of be in a queer space and especially when you're a healer, right, like it's not always easy to find places for support. So the biggest kind of mission of the Queer Relationship Institute is to provide training and support for therapists and coaches who want to help other people in queer relationships. I also do individual therapy and couples therapy and all that kind of stuff too.
Timothy Bish:So part of your work is about embodiment. Am I right about that?
Tom Bruett:Mhmm.
Timothy Bish:I'm curious if we could just start off with my experience in men's work has been that a lot of men struggle with their relationship with their body or or could be served with a deepening of their relationship with their body. I'm wondering if you could speak a about men in general and then how queer men might differ or or special circumstances that we might find ourselves in that aren't maybe not totally shared.
Tom Bruett:Yeah. Think gender plays a lot a huge role in this. And so if we're if we're socialized, raised male, right, there are certain aspects of the body that are okay. It's okay to be strong. It's okay to have muscles.
Tom Bruett:It's, you know, it's not okay to be soft. It's not okay usually to have certain kinds of emotions. Anger is okay, but, you know, sadness and and grief can be often looked down upon. And so I think when you when you layer on that the experience of being a queer guy, I mean, there's there's, you know, a quote that I really love about this is is this idea that, like, as queer men, we're we are sort of the spies into hyper masculinity because we have to be, like, that much more on guard because we're hiding aspects of who we actually are. And so you take all this stuff, all the crap that we have to deal with as as men, and then you just amplify it when you're in a queer body.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. Thank you for that. You know, because in in men's workspaces and an embodiment practice, we will often ask people to come into different practices and then have an experience of themselves. And I find that it is really hard for men to do that, especially if they're new to the practice. And I think part of it is what you just said where we've been told some of these experiences are okay.
Timothy Bish:And so those I think we have quicker access to, like anger. But then there's this gigantic swath of human experience that we were told is not okay or nonoptimal, certainly not the ideal sexy Marlboro man. And so then we don't have any sort of access to it because we haven't been given tools or seen it modeled, which is why we are all doing the work we're doing so that we can start to model that.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm. And so that that quote that you shared of us being like the spies into the hyper masculinity, I really love that. It resonates with me because I can relate to really masquerading and trying to fit and shape shift myself to fit certain molds. But what that did is it took me away from my authenticity and my actual embodied experience. And so I'm curious, how do you work with queer men to help them come back into their embodied experience?
Tom Bruett:So that is the root of all of the work that I do is is, rooted in the theory and the model of my mentors, Doctor. Ellen Bader and Peter Pearson, and they have this model of, relationship therapy that is is built on understanding attachment science, understanding the brain, but then the big piece that I think is important for queer men is the differentiation piece. And so having the ability, like you said, to go inward and to know what you want, feel, long for, desire, like so often we are cut off from that because we're playing a role in society in some way. And so a lot of the work that I do is around helping people reconnect with themselves. And it's yeah, part of it is is you know your mind and the mental piece of it, but a lot of it is the body and even the spiritual.
Timothy Bish:Is that the gateway? I'm thinking in this moment about my own personal experience and how does a queer person know what what is their authentic expression, what they really want if we have spent decades or lifetimes, trying to be something else? And I have to imagine that you've encountered this. I've been working really hard to be strong enough, smart enough, successful enough, earn your love, not get my ass kicked, you know, whatever. So how does that person start the process of understanding what it is they really want when that hasn't been the priority for very legitimate reasons.
Timothy Bish:I want to make sure that's really clear. What we've done for our own safety is not something we should judge ourselves for, but if we want to heal and grow, we have to kind of meet it. So what do you do?
Tom Bruett:It actually takes a lot of courage and experimentation and risk taking. Mean to do this process of differentiation, It's to go inward and actually connect with yourself and then tolerate the tension when you hold on to yourself in relationship with somebody else is not something that many people are taught and certainly not a lot of men. And so I think, you know, like you said, have some compassion and grace with ourselves, but then get outside of our comfort zone, take some risks, experiment, try some new things, and many of us didn't have an adolescence at the same time as we physically had our adolescence. You know, we physically go through adolescence at the same time as a lot of our straight counterparts, but we go through, I think, our emotional and spiritual adolescence a lot later, usually after we come to terms with or, you know, get to know more about ourselves or identities or anything like that. And adolescence is, like, by definition, a period of exploration, and so if haven't had that freedom or that exploration, I think when we get through adulthood and we wake up and we're like, oh gosh, we're doing this job that we hate and we're miserable.
Tom Bruett:What are we going to do now?
Eric Bomyea:And so physical adolescence, emotional adolescence, what about sexual adolescence? The time that we get to experiment and explore that way. Because I can just say from my personal experience, as my peers in high school were starting to become sexually active, I was a closeted gay boy, very nervous about everything. So I did not have that experimentation until a couple years into my college years there.
Tom Bruett:And that I think definitely and we know that like queer culture is not a monolith. There's as many queer stories out there as there are queer people out there, and so your story is gonna be different than mine and different than yours and etcetera. But yeah, we don't there's not like a typical road map for a lot of us, and it depends on how old you are, when you came out, where you came out, you know, was your family accepting, did you have windows and mirrors into other gay male experiences or queer male experiences? I mean for me, I came, I had a sexual adolescence super early, but I don't necessarily think that was it was embodied. It certainly wasn't embodied.
Tom Bruett:It was it was physical but not embodied.
Timothy Bish:I'm really glad that you just said that because I'd love for us to talk a little bit about that distinction. I know that our queer community or the gay male community in particular can be very focused on physicality on our bodies and how they look and very focused on sex oftentimes as a form of validation. How would we how would you talk about that in contrast to what it means to be embodied? About the body versus embodied, and what how how do you see that?
Tom Bruett:If we think about embodied as as kind of combining your mind, your body, and and also your spirit or your soul or whatever whatever version of that you want to connect with, I think it's about like actually being fully present. And so many of us, I mean this is certainly my experience, this is a personal journey that I am still on. Do I always have embodied sex? No. I mean there are certainly times where I use sex as a way to relieve stress or whatever.
Tom Bruett:Right? And that's not bad. I don't wanna, like, pathologize any type of sex. But are we also able to have the ability to to actually have fully embodied sex? And I think that that's something a lot of people in our community are longing for.
Eric Bomyea:Longing for, yes. But how do how would somebody even know what the difference is? If I've spent my entire adolescence and then into adulthood just with physical sex, I don't know what embodied sex is. I don't even know if there's another way to have sex. So like
Timothy Bish:I actually don't think that outside of the yogic demonic embodiment world that I've ever even heard that term. So if we're thinking about our queer community and how we try to bring it to them, like, how do we bring it when I don't think it's a part? It certainly hasn't been a part of the conversation that I've overheard.
Tom Bruett:And I guess I overlap in a lot of that community. I've done a lot of psychedelic work and a lot of men's work personally and it's been super important and influential in my life. So there's a lot of people in that community where that's true. I think sometimes people will get in into it through tantra or you know there are some aspects of like where there is overlap between I think the queer male community and this kind of embodied life, but I think it is it's not pervasive, and it's not what we see in pornography, it is not what we're, you know, even in romantic comedies, right, the queer romantic comedies that are out there, that's not usually the kind of sex that's depicted, and so I think it usually people usually are starting to long for it when they're having sex that ends up feeling unfulfilled, that they end up feeling unfulfilled, or they have a sexual experience and they feel shame or regret or remorse afterwards, or there's some kind of negative experience connected with sex, And then people start maybe opening up their eyes a little bit and saying, want something different here.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I've heard and have experienced in my past the feeling where wanting the experience to be something, but as it's happening, not that it's necessarily bad, but it's, you know, like, ugh. It's the it's just not it's just not satisfying in the same way. I imagine that is sort of a flag, like, that would draw someone's attention to maybe I'm wanting something else here.
Tom Bruett:Or if you have to always use substances with sex. I mean, that's a huge one in our community. Right? And whether it's alcohol which is the most pervasive, or it's meth on the other end of the spectrum, or poppers or whatever it is, like if you're having to sort of check out of your body in some way to actually be physically connected to somebody else, again I'm not saying that that's bad or undesirable for some people, but are there other options? Are there other ways you can be in your body?
Eric Bomyea:And I think the key word here, again, it's not moralistic judgment, it's does it feel fulfilling? Are you leaving that experience fulfilled or unfulfilled? And how does that feel in the body? Because we aren't going to seek out solutions for things if we don't see them as problems and we don't identify if it could even be a problem worth finding a solution for. So in this case, using physical sex and noticing the sensations that arise after that, If I'm going in and I'm just like I'm blissed out on something, in my case, I drank heavily for many, many years and I was only intimate when drinking.
Eric Bomyea:I wouldn't have been able to even realize whether I was fulfilled or not after a sexual encounter. I was just like, I'm just in my own little land. Right. And then getting sober and being able to start being in those experiences a little bit more, was able to really start to gauge how I was feeling before and after different experiences.
Tom Bruett:Thank you for sharing that. Can I ask you a question about that?
Eric Bomyea:Yes, please.
Tom Bruett:A lot of because this is a common experience for a lot of people when they get sober, is that the idea of sober sex and the process of sober sex takes a lot of time. Like, it's not an easy thing. And so I'm wondering if you had that experience, if it was difficult for you to actually, have some more embodied or sober sex and not that they're the same.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. So there were moments of challenge. During my transition from heavily drinking and drugging to then being fully sober, I dabbled into BDSM as a way to become a little bit more embodied in my relations because it took a little bit of the just straight sexual component off of it. So I could still be intimate with a partner without necessarily having to bring sex into the equation. And so that was a nice bridge for me to be like, oh, well, I can be intimate with somebody and I can start to reveal parts of my my mental self and also physical self, and we're playing with with rope.
Eric Bomyea:Right? And I can like we can like baby step into, you know, maybe the underwear comes off at some point.
Tom Bruett:I love that you're bringing that up because I think kink and BDSM can is is an incredibly vulnerable experience and exchange if you're doing it in a, you know, connected, authentic way.
Eric Bomyea:And it doesn't have to involve sex. And so it can be a nice way to, for me anyway, to develop some intimacy without having to be fully sexually intimate. So I'm curious for you. So you talked initially about your mentors and teachers being focused on attachment. And so what led you from being curious of attachment theory in that sort of world to then bringing in sex therapy?
Eric Bomyea:What was the bridge for you?
Tom Bruett:The bridge for me was I do a lot of relational work, lot of work with gay men. I was in the Bay Area for ten years, and so I was working with a lot of men, and there were a lot of sex, you know, situations that were coming up that I just didn't feel prepared to know how to help people with, and so I thought becoming a sex therapist, I would, you know, I would go to sex therapy school and I would get these great mentors and I would learn a lot, you know, from the schools, and what I found was a similar situation that I found throughout my professional career is that there are not usually enough queer resources in spaces like that, like we end up having to continue to find what works for us, and so even in the sex therapy training program, I was always like, okay, but how does this apply to queer people? How does this apply to gay men? Like, why are you pathologizing that thing? Know, and the sex therapy community is pretty open minded in general, but there's just not that many resources out there for us.
Eric Bomyea:Could we get specific on some of those? You said you were in the Bay Area and there were clients bringing you certain specific things. Can we talk about some of those typical things or some of the more common things that were being brought to you that then you sought education for that you could then go back to them with a little bit more knowledge?
Tom Bruett:I mean, the trickiest one, I think, for a lot of folks is desire differences or desire discrepancy. So you're in a relationship with somebody and in a relationship there is inherently a lower desire partner and a higher desire partner. One is not good, one is not bad, but they always exist because people are not ever, you know, fully 100 aligned on that. That can be really tricky when you're working with couples because it's really hard to not like blame one person or get into like accusations or demand sex or anything like that, and so that was one area where I was just like, I felt like I didn't I didn't have the skills with gay men to help to help them through this issue. Another issue certainly is substances.
Tom Bruett:I mean, I worked a lot with meth and gay men, in my early career, and I worked in a rehab for a while, and they're I think coming off of a substance like meth is so complicated, and there's so many different layers, and when you mix it with sex, and it makes sex, you know, like, I'm not going to remember the right statistic, but like 500, you know, times the the power of dopamine released than just an orgasm on its own. So it's like when you put an orgasm and meth together, it's it's like a perfect storm for, kind of filling some of those those voids we have as gay men.
Timothy Bish:We could go back to the desire discrepancy, I find really fascinating. I'm curious I have to imagine that that is a challenge for any person in a relationship, you know, queer or not queer. So I'm curious, how is it specifically challenging for queer people? And I I have I think I have an idea, but I'd like to hear from you about I I have to imagine I'll just say it. I have to imagine for people in relationships who are also getting a lot of validation from sex, than not getting sex or feeling forced to give sex might carry a weight.
Timothy Bish:But I'd be curious to hear what you've learned and what you know.
Tom Bruett:There's so many myths too that like gay men just love sex and they're all sex, sex, sex, sex. And so then if you find yourself in a relationship, kinda like you're saying, where, like, where's this where where did the sex go? You take it super personally, and then it shows up in lots of different other areas of your connection, and if you just stop personalizing it and figure out, okay, we just we're just different. We have different wirings, different ways that we're made up. How can we actually just, like, find something on the sexual menu that works for both of us?
Tom Bruett:And and what are the things that turn you on so that we can maybe, you know, do that together instead of blame and accuse and all that kind of stuff? But the differences for gay men I think are like right from what we started with how sexualized we are and how, you know, it's all there's so much pressure on bodies and how you look and how big your dick is and you know, how many dicks you could take. I mean, there's just like so many things there to complicate the situation.
Eric Bomyea:I've been over a year now off of Grindr, Scruff, and any gay dating app because I couldn't handle it anymore. I could not handle one more person asking for a dick pic. I could not handle just the way that I was being engaged with any further. And it really I felt so much shame. I struggle every day.
Eric Bomyea:I look in the mirror, I'm like, I'm not sexy enough. I'm not fit enough. My dick's not big enough. All of these things. And it's just like I had to remove myself from that environment because I had to just focus on myself for a little bit.
Eric Bomyea:Was like, I need to love myself a little bit more before I even play in these waters again because it's just too cutthroat for me right now. The hypersexualized nature we live in Provincetown, Massachusetts, so we're in a gay gay vacation town.
Tom Bruett:My favorite place in the world.
Eric Bomyea:Yay. Well, when you when you come to town, please come visit us. It really is a magical slice of land, and it's also very hypersexualized. And that sound good or bad?
Timothy Bish:I feel like if people are listening to this and they're interested in trying to understand the level of embodiment that they have with their sex currently, if they wanna deepen that. You know, as a yoga teacher, I hear a lot about Tantra. And then so what I what I've learned is that a lot of people really misunderstand Tantra. And Tantra is actually like a deeply, robust philosophical system that is, like, with lots and lots of practice. So I I often say, oh, if you're talking about real Tantric sex, it would probably look more like a, like, deep long breath practice and, you know, than it would like the Karma Sutra, like, crazy positions.
Timothy Bish:Right? And so so it seems as if embodied sex means first starting to have a relationship with your own embodiment and then bringing that into the situation. So when you're working with clients who are interested in cultivating this, where do you start? What are some first steps for them?
Tom Bruett:Because I'm a therapist, right, there are certain restrictions and boundaries. So I'm not touching people, I'm not like having them have sex or or in my office, but I am helping them kind of talk through some things that they can do. So as you were talking, the image that came to mind for me was like, okay, like what are the parts of your body that you like and what are the parts or even tolerate? What are the parts of your body you tolerate? Because not not many of us have parts of our body that we even would say we like.
Tom Bruett:Can you can you like just connect with a part of your body that you tolerate? And can you just breathe into that a little bit, you know, and just kind of be with that part of your body. And then you could work up to, okay, are there some parts of your body that you really don't like? You know, your stomach hanging over your pants, is that something that you can just soften up a little bit and breathe into? You know, but if as we move to more embodied sex with partners, I think there is a way in which we allow ourselves to be fully seen and that felt and tasted and all the other things by somebody else, but it takes it being kind of actually able to be in your own body and whatever messy or lovely or whatever the relationship is with your own body, you've got to start there.
Timothy Bish:It's why in in the men's work space the body scan I think is such an important practice. Scanning through the body, starting to look for different sensations, identify them by quality and location. Sometimes ask yourself, is there an emotion? It seems so simple. And yet I believe through observation and through personal experience that most of us are not asking ourselves or checking in with how we're actually feeling.
Timothy Bish:And so then we're not super good at it. So the idea of find one place, If I heard you correctly, find one place that you can tolerate and just send your awareness there with some breath is huge. So if you're listening, yeah, it sounds simple. And yes, you could probably do it in thirty seconds if that's all you had. But it is super impactful in my experience, and it sounds like you you agree.
Timothy Bish:And so and then the more you do it, the the greater the access we'll have to the plethora of experiences that we can have simultaneously. Mhmm. I mean, feel really fortunate because so much of my work I was a dancer and lots of we have to drink now.
Eric Bomyea:There's a there's a a loving drinking game, whatever beverage you want. It could be chamomile tea or whatever you wanna be drinking. But anytime Tim references that he was a professional dancer.
Timothy Bish:Well, yeah. I didn't use the word professional on purpose. Because I did train with my body that way and then and then with and then with yoga, I I had a luxury of being in conversation with my physical body and with other people's physical bodies, I think exponentially more than most people. And then through this work and in facilitating groups, I realized, oh, a lot of people haven't not only have they not had the luxury I've had, they've had almost none. And so I see the healing, and that's partly why these circles exist, to bring some of it.
Timothy Bish:How are you feeling in any given moment?
Eric Bomyea:The relationship that we have to our bodies could be intolerable. It could be like for a long time, my body scans stopped at my neck. Like I really could not bring myself into my body. There was a gatekeeper at my neck that said, nope, your attention does not come into the body. It was trauma.
Eric Bomyea:It was all sorts of things that prevented me from, like, going through, and it was it was practice. It was very similar to what you said. Like, find a place that is a little comfortable.
Timothy Bish:Well, in the circles, I've noticed that sometimes if it feels like we're getting too self helpy to that that sometimes also presses a pause button for for men. I had one guy in particular who would just answer fine. I feel fine. I feel you know? And so this to me then feels like why something like a yoga class that that someone might perceive as maybe a little bit more fitness or other sort so what are some things that are access points for for people who might not feel safe in a deeply demonic spiritual space or maybe they don't even feel deeply comfortable in a therapeutic space.
Timothy Bish:Like where what what are things that they can do or where places they could go?
Tom Bruett:I think yoga is a great place to start, but also is walking. I mean, you're just walking in nature and you're paying attention to your five senses, whether you believe it or not, that's mindfulness. Mhmm. And so mindfulness is just paying attention to what's happening now, that's it. So whatever you're doing that's paying attention to what's happening now, that's as simple as it gets.
Tom Bruett:So, you know, ecstatic dance, if you're somebody who likes to dance. I think even going out to a club and dancing, but if you're not, you know, fully out of your mind, can you just be with the music? You know, can you allow the music to kind of take over your body in some way or like be present with what's happening in your body with the music? There's so many different ways that that people can do this. It doesn't have to be formal.
Tom Bruett:It doesn't have to be therapy. It doesn't have to be I mean, I I do love I've I've caught a few of your Instagram lives where you're doing breath practices and like, I mean, what a great free resource for our community. I mean, you don't even have to pay a lot of money for it right now. Right?
Eric Bomyea:Sorry. That's a big mission of ours is how can we bring this work to more people? How do we make it more accessible to more people? And the reason why we're doing the Instagram live breath practices is for a couple of reasons. One is that a sixty minute class is sometimes a high barrier to entry for a lot of people.
Eric Bomyea:Especially if you have travel to it. If you have to travel to it and now all of a sudden it's not a sixty minute commitment, it's an hour and a half commitment. And that is a huge barrier to entry for many people. The other is that sometimes in person is scary. And so let's figure out a way to do that virtually.
Eric Bomyea:And then the other is that the kind of impromptu nature of a live versus something on demand and invite people into, oh, well, happening now, like, what's my excuse? Like, let me just let me just try it.
Tom Bruett:So I just love what you're saying. I mean, my philosophy really is just it's an experiment. Just try a little experiment. Doesn't mean you're committing to this for the rest of your life. But if you're breathing into your big toe or you're taking and doing an Instagram live, just try it.
Tom Bruett:What do you have to lose?
Timothy Bish:So in men's work spaces, we talk a lot about the nervous system. I'm just gonna speak from my own experience. When I was a young gay boy and then moving into New York City to become a professional dancer. Alright.
Eric Bomyea:Was so hydrated by the end of this.
Tom Bruett:I will yeah.
Timothy Bish:Because I'm just gonna keep saying it now. I I was crippled with anxiety that would manifest as like pretty intense digestive like issues. And it would it would create a thing where I would sometimes choose to not eat if I had to go out because I would be afraid that I would have to use the bathroom. There would be moments when I would be afraid, like, in performances to be like, if I can't make it on stage, like, this is what you should do without me, like, that kind of thing. And, and what I've learned in personal experience and then observing is that these practices really were and have been a tool.
Timothy Bish:Believe it or not, I'm I'm way more relaxed and less anxious than I have been. So, yeah, a lot of progress has been made. Now to the question of we in men's work, we'll talk about the nervous system and sort of moving charges, dispersing these things. And I I sometimes relate it to ducks flapping their wings or dogs sort of like, you know, do you work in that way? Do you talk about it like that?
Timothy Bish:And do you find that helpful? And if not, what would be?
Tom Bruett:I talk about the brain a lot because when I'm doing couples work or relational work, like, it's a lot of people who are in their brains. And so just understanding the way that the brain works in conflict and understanding like the hand model of the brain, Dan Siegel's model, where it's very very simple. These are your four frontal fingers or your frontal cortex, that's the thinking brain. Your thumb is your amygdala, you're fight flight freeze, and so if you are activated in the way you're talking about, if you're anxious and your thumb is out, you can't think, right? So you just have to stop, you have to get into your body in that moment.
Tom Bruett:And then you do brainstem exercises, which is breathing exercises or getting into your body. That's the only way that you can actually get back into your body and into your nervous system if your thumb is out. And so that's like the most important thing that I teach couples right away is like, you have to understand this is neuroscience. And then, you know, how can you bring it into your body in a a way that actually can give you some some freedom?
Timothy Bish:Wait. That is so huge that I'm gonna I'm gonna try to say it again and then have you say it again because I I think I think we really need to because I think sometimes with men's work, people think of it as sort of like, you know, up on its mountaintop, like rubbing the crystals together sort of like, you know, whatever. And you're like, no. This is this is real. Our our our brains and our nervous systems are are a system.
Timothy Bish:And if we are one pedal is pressed all the way, we we have to do something or or it's we're not going to change that. And that's what I'm hearing. We have to make a change physically or we can't think our way out of an intense amygdala fear response. Is that what I'm hearing?
Tom Bruett:Yes, because the brain, you know, you have to do brain stem activities. Brain stem activities are the, you know, the brain stem is the oldest part of the brain, so it's getting into the body, it's what controls sex, appetite, all that kind of stuff. So you have to get into the body in some way. There's lots of different ways you can do that, but you have to get into the body.
Timothy Bish:So you're talking about movement, posture, breath, sound, all of the things that we're doing in embodiment practices are ways, And so and I'm only getting excited because I've said this. I'm like, you guys take these things if they work for you and bring them into your life when you can. So, yes, there are times where we do something called like a Shakti shake. Maybe you can't always do that, you know, when you're stressed out before your business meeting, But you can do deep regulated breath, and there's like all these different kinds that people don't even have to know you're doing. Right?
Timothy Bish:And so so, yes, it's like these tools that can actually shift, create a real shift, and then that shift can allow you what sounds like some space for more conscious choice making.
Tom Bruett:It's the only way. It's literally the only way. If you don't do that, your thumb is not going to come back online and your frontal cortex is not going to come back online and then you can't think. Not going to have executive function.
Timothy Bish:So exactly. So so okay so just a little bit more about that then. Are are we're we're being dominated right now by a reptilian like brain or amygdala, and then if we don't take action, are we are we basically just in instinct and survival? Can you speak a little bit about that?
Tom Bruett:So yes. If your if your amygdala is activated, the first step is noticing that that's happening. So many people don't even know it. They just they they've been in that space for so long that they they just react. So there's something, another Dan Siegel concept called the window of tolerance.
Tom Bruett:So the window of tolerance is when your brain is all online, everything's working smoothly, you can think, you can make really good, you know, decisions, all that kind of stuff, so you're calm, that's all happening. You can either go into one of two states there when your thumb comes out. Hyperarousal, that's where like things feel like too much, you get angry, rageful, like anxious, all that kind of stuff, addiction happens there. Or you go to hypoarousal, that's when you start to shut down, you numb out, you know, you and so you have to kind of realize what's happening, and so you have to know when you go into hypo arousal, what are the things that happen for you, and when you go into hyper arousal, what are the things that happen for you? And then you have all these tools that you guys are describing that you can do in those moments to get back into the body.
Timothy Bish:So hyperarousal I have to assume then is I'm shouting, I'm sending impulsive texts, I'm being confrontational. Hypo arousal might be I'm withdrawing. I'm, like, looking to numb. Or or is this generally and so those
Tom Bruett:exactly right.
Timothy Bish:That's what people would be looking for then. Oh, so every time you start numbing yourself with fill in the blank, that might be a sign that you're not you're not an executive function.
Tom Bruett:And then that's a great time to do some breath work or to stretch or do some yoga or what whatever. Right? There's so many options, but you've got to have those tools in your toolbox. So when I'm working with people, that's one of the first things that I help people figure out.
Eric Bomyea:Oh, I love that. And such a powerful reflection of the power of these practises, how to get us back into that state where we can be making the best decisions that we can for ourselves. And so I'm curious, bringing it back to partnership and bringing it back to sex, if somebody's starting to experience hyper or hypo arousal in those states, how can we work with our partners?
Tom Bruett:This is going to bring me to the topic of consent, which I feel like in our community is not always fully understood. And so Betty Martin, who's a researcher, has done so much great work on this and she has something called the wheel of consent. And so if you're trying to do something, right, if like, say I am realizing I'm in hypo arousal and I want something for my partner, like, can I ask for it? Can I say, will you do this thing? And then is your partner going say, I will or no I won't?
Tom Bruett:Or if you, you know, I want to hug you, may I hug you? Yes you may or no you won't. So often in our spaces, we just sort of go to it, right? We go to physical touch, and then if you especially if you had some sort of trauma in your life, that can be even more traumatizing. And so I think in our partnerships, there's gotta be like a foundation of consent and a communication, a way to talk about this stuff.
Eric Bomyea:And in those cases where we're in an intimate relationship with somebody and we are working through and maybe I'm a client of yours and I am trying to do my own practices, right? I've noticed that, oh, my thumb is out. And I've now coming back to myself, like, how could I be working with my partner through that as well? If we're in a physical moment and my thumb comes out and I'm saying, Oh, I'm trying to work with myself, how can my partner also work
Timothy Bish:with me?
Tom Bruett:That's why I because by definition, right, if your executive function is offline, not gonna be able to speak as eloquently as you just did
Eric Bomyea:there. So
Tom Bruett:sometimes I I say just do this, just just do the thumbs out motion. That's enough to say I need a break.
Eric Bomyea:I love it.
Tom Bruett:And then do some practices and then come back after you've had an opportunity to get back into your body.
Eric Bomyea:But when there is such a pressure on the physicality of sex to be performative, to be this it has to look this exact way, like, I have to be erect the entire time and I can't take breaks and I have to get to the finish line. And if I don't, then I'm not a man. Right? If I don't, then I'm a failure at sex. And just the courage to say, okay, we're in the middle of something and thumbs out.
Eric Bomyea:I need to take a pause. And what's gonna happen? I'm gonna lose my erection. You might lose your erection. Whatever we were doing might have to come to a a standstill.
Eric Bomyea:It doesn't mean that it's over. It doesn't mean that we failed. It means that we have an opportunity here to demonstrate a different type of intimacy. And then if things are picking back up, we can get right back on the train.
Timothy Bish:I'm curious. It sounds to me like this awareness of our amygdala, I. E. Our thumb out, versus not, probably probably ups up mainly outside of a sexual context.
Tom Bruett:Not always.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I mean, not always. But I so I feel like a lot of this practice isn't I know that we're talking about embodied sex today, but a lot of the practice of being able to communicate with your partner that you have slipped into that state or that you are in a bit of overwhelm, I a lot of that practice is gonna happen day to day, like over the dishes, on the phone, like that kind of thing. And and then, yes, of course, it could it could find itself in the bedroom, but the practice doesn't have to be exclusively in the bedroom. Is that am I hearing you right?
Tom Bruett:Absolutely right. Yeah. Absolutely right. And the and the way you were just describing, like, saying my thumbs out during sex and your erections, I mean, that is, like, real vulnerability. That is super authentic.
Tom Bruett:And, I mean, I certainly crave to have that in my partnerships and, you know, I think a lot of people do.
Timothy Bish:That to me feels like like an advanced the the ability to get there doesn't feel like the kind of thing that you can do immediately. It feels like the the awareness that you would have to build over over time practicing, looking, curiosity, insight, sharing.
Tom Bruett:Yeah. The first step is just noticing that your thumb is going out. Getting to know your nervous system a little bit better. And then doing some practices. Like you can practice or even it's better to practice when your thumb is not out.
Timothy Bish:Sure. And then I have to since we're since we're talking about embodiment, I have to imagine then going back to that awareness of what we're feeling is one major tool of knowing if our thumb is up. Right? So for me, I blush. I I can feel the heat when when I'm starting to get upset, which is frustrating because I feel betrayed by it.
Timothy Bish:I can't really hide it. But but it's a physical sensation that I have that lets me know I'm feeling upset. I'm feeling unsafe, whatever the thing is. If a person isn't yet connected to those things, then going into their body can help them understand, oh, I'm feeling warm. I'm feeling tired, I'm feeling foggy, right?
Timothy Bish:All the all of these which could be sensations many of which wouldn't be just sort of head energy experiences.
Tom Bruett:A 100% and so whether you're somebody because some people are more cognitive right they'll go right to the thought, Some people are more body sensation. However your nervous system works, it's okay. Start there.
Eric Bomyea:What would be the difference there? If somebody is more cognitive, what dialogue might they be having with themselves versus more of the felt sense? Get an example there.
Tom Bruett:Yeah, so the felt sense is going to be more like, oh, I'm feeling like my stomach is hurting or, you know, oh, I'm blushing or, you know, that's going be more the physical. The thought is going to be more like, oh gosh, I've got a million different things to do today. Oh, did I do that right? Oh, I don't think I did that right. You know, like that voice inside that is just never going to let you off that hamster wheel.
Timothy Bish:So let's for a moment assume that in a partnership two people are both relaxed and in executive function, and they want to start to bring a deeper level of embodiment into their intimacy and sexual interaction? How might someone just learning begin?
Tom Bruett:I mean there's lots of different routes here, but the one that's coming to mind as you're asking that question is something called 'sensate focused'. And so it's actually a practice where you don't, it's not orgasm focused, so take orgasm off the table. I know there's so much pressure, right, to have an orgasm, orgasm is what sex is, and just like it's a multiple session kind of protocol, where you're going to first start fully clothed, and maybe you're going to just like hold hands lying in bed, or rub each other's shoulders, or like do something that feels good, and with consent, you know, practice like, may I rub your shoulders? Like does this feel good? Do you want it harder?
Tom Bruett:Do you want it softer? Like to get into the practice of communicating when there's no pressure of sex whatsoever, no pressure of orgasm. That's a really good place for a lot of people to start. It feels super weird, you know, people are not people don't love that idea, But but the freedom that can come when you take orgasm and sex and penetrative sex off the table is just huge.
Eric Bomyea:Like, if I got on the apps today, like, how would I even, like, talk to a partner about that? Like, I'm like, hey. Do you wanna come over and just rub my shoulders?
Tom Bruett:Right? Like
Eric Bomyea:like that seems so foreign in gay culture today. Yeah. Right.
Timothy Bish:Like I want I want the button that says shoulder rubs. Truly.
Eric Bomyea:But the amount of times that I've been shamed for like even including side on my profile back in the day, like, I'm like, I can't even ask for a shoulder massage. Like, I feel like it's just it's I love this. I love this so much because, like, is such an intimate moment that seems really far away for at least for for me. I want it. I crave it.
Eric Bomyea:But, like, how do I even, like, ask for it? How do I even get it?
Tom Bruett:But even if you're gonna ask for a blowjob. Right? Like, there there are the blowjobs on the app where it's like the guy comes over, blowjob, and leaves. Right? Can you can you turn that into a moment that actually has a little bit more connection?
Tom Bruett:Can you look into each other's eyes? Can you touch his body in a different way? Like are there ways that you can, even in those small interactions, because I know it's really easy to find those, can you try to bring some connection into those moments?
Timothy Bish:That example is a practice that one person could be doing without having a big conversation. So right now we're talking about trying to have an embodied experience from a grinder. Chances are you don't know this person. Right? That could still be something that if I'm working with my own experience of embodiment, oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna bring some touch.
Timothy Bish:You don't have to tell the person, oh, I'm gonna practice some embodiment, like sensational awareness while I, like, approach your genitals before I do the thing to them that we agreed to. Right? Which by the way is really sexy. So I'm gonna use that. So I just this is like so if someone's listening, it doesn't have to be because part of what I'm hearing you say is, oh, with two people who really care and are trying to meet each other, you could then have a really robust conversation about how to meet each other.
Timothy Bish:But if in this example, you're like, I can just try touching you differently and seeing how that feels and seeing how you react. I mean, this is all in assuming that, like, everyone is consenting. But yeah. So it is a personal practice.
Tom Bruett:A personal practice. I mean just just pay attention to the five senses, right? I mean sex is a very sensual experience. When you're doing that blowjob, what does it smell like? What does it taste like?
Tom Bruett:What does it feel like? Is there is there heat in your body? Like without even the other person so much weighing into it, you can you can try to make it more embodied for yourself. Is that like gonna be the be all end all most fulfilling thing for most people? Probably not.
Tom Bruett:Right? But it's a step. And so I think this can just feel so overwhelming and then people could go into that collapsed state of like, well, the whole gay community is fucked, and everybody just is transactional, and I don't think that's a super healthy or helpful spot either, because then you're just in the hopelessness. And so we've got to like find a way to like take small steps out of it. And it it is I wish I could say it's gonna be easy, but it's it's gonna take all of us like bringing a little bit more awareness to the to the table.
Timothy Bish:Do you have a theory on if we should and how we could deemphasize the orgasm in gay male sex or queer sex? Because to be clear, I love I love having orgasms, but I I hear you when you said earlier there can be a freedom in, but it isn't a requirement for this to have been worthwhile.
Tom Bruett:There's so many couples who come in and so we just have to be honest about facts, right? So thirty percent of the time at 30 you're going to have erectile disappointments, forty percent of the time at 40, fifty percent of the time at 50, and so if we call them disappointments and we just make them a part of growing older, the privilege of growing older, like it's going to happen. And so can you go into an experience and so often partners will take it personally like, oh, he didn't come and so that means that he's not into me. Like, woah, let's detangle that logic there for a moment, right? Like he didn't come maybe because he didn't want to come.
Tom Bruett:So one of the principles is really you're in charge of your own orgasm. And so if you want to come, you're in charge of that. If you don't want to come, that's okay, right? And so you just getting to a place of differentiation around my partner is going to tell me what he needs to feel pleasure, I'm going to be responsible for my pleasure and we can communicate that about and negotiate about that, but like I'm not taking on his orgasm.
Timothy Bish:There was there was this article that I read about human physiology and our sexual desire matched with our intimate connection. And often as as we deepen intimately with someone, the shifting in our sexual desire, is there a truth to that? And is there anything worth talking about there so that we understand? Because I think one experience that I've had is I start to deepen my connection with someone and then feel jealousy when this new strange stranger is able to elicit a response that I seem to not be able to anymore or not as consistently or
Tom Bruett:My thoughts would be that it that it's so individual that like for some people the the closer that they get to somebody, the more erotically turned on they are, and that for some people the closer they get to somebody, the less erotically turned on they are. So I think it's really about like the individual getting to know your nervous system. Whatever it is, it's natural, it's okay, but just know yourself, and don't try to compare yourself to your partner or partners.
Timothy Bish:So if you're in a relationship where one person is deepening their sexual connection because of that emotional connection and the other one is pulling away, or not pulling away, but, they're having a different experience, how do you help them meet each other?
Tom Bruett:This would be like the the way we're talking about it now, like more of classically if we think about it from like an attachment science perspective, the anxious, more anxious person than the more avoidant person, and so it's tricky, and that's where you can I mean that's the desired differences and why it can take, you know, sometimes months and months in in couples therapy and sex therapy to work through this because you gotta get to what's actually going what's at the root of this? And then, for some people, like, again, owning your own pleasure, what turns you on, what are breaks, you know, there there's a model in sex therapy called the that that you compare sex to a car. And so we all have accelerators and brakes. Accelerators are things you turn on that turn you on. Brakes are things that turn you off.
Tom Bruett:Just like a car, if a brake is pressed down, doesn't matter how hard you press on the accelerator, you're not going anywhere. And so getting to know what your turn ons and turn offs are, that way you can tell your partner. Right? Like, oh, when you like nibble my ear, that's gonna probably push the accelerator a little bit. And so if you're feeling avoidant, I can push the accelerator and maybe that will bring us into more a more connected experience.
Tom Bruett:Maybe it won't.
Eric Bomyea:And some of your advice earlier, try. Try. If you're both consenting and you're willing to, like, you know, meet each other in these ways, try. Yeah. It can feel a little scary.
Eric Bomyea:It can feel a little risky, but, like, what's the worst that happens? You lose your erection and then you start over? Just saying that I'm like, oh, that's terrifying. But then I'm like, okay. Like, it's not the end of the world.
Eric Bomyea:It's okay.
Tom Bruett:Yeah. It's it's gonna happen to all of us, like, just taking the pressure off of it because pressure the more with with erectile disappointments, like, the more pressure you put on it, the worse it gets, and so it's just like, you gotta just get to a place of getting to more embodiment, and I think embodiment practices can be really good for any kind of, you know, whether it's premature ejaculation or recount disappointments, being more in your body is going to help.
Timothy Bish:Yeah, think embodiment practice and just broadening our understanding of our capacity to feel different sensation is really powerful because there are so many things that can be pleasurable. And I think that we often kind of ignore those. And we go to the it's the menu. You're like, we go right to the entree, we've kind of, like, skipped all the appetizers, and that's as far as that metaphor can go. But you gotta you gotta so in embodiment, we're like, oh, I can feel a tingling here and an achiness there simultaneously.
Timothy Bish:I can feel a coolness and a warmth. Like, you know, you start to be like, oh, well, then maybe I can enjoy a lingering touch that isn't fucking.
Eric Bomyea:The intimacy of a back rub, the sensation of a back rub. And sometimes be We actually had We have a guest that came on who was at a radical fairy gathering and was participating in sex magic. His partner is a sex magic facilitator. And there wasn't a whole lot of penetrative or oral sex happening during this whole practice. And he said that in his years of living and he came to Provincetown, Provincetown during the seventies and eighties.
Eric Bomyea:So he's seen a lot of different things and has experienced a lot of different things. The most intimate act of sex that he's ever had was simply holding somebody's hand during the circle. And it was such a profound moment. Like, oh, wow. You deeply connected with somebody in a way that most of us wouldn't consider as a sexual act.
Eric Bomyea:But in that in that circumstance, it was for him. And I was like, that was really, really beautiful.
Tom Bruett:I'm getting emotional just hearing you talk about that. I think it's so beautiful.
Eric Bomyea:Really. And I think what I'm hearing in this conversation is the allowance to try different things, experiment with different things, to be in control of my own pleasure and responsible for my own pleasure and not that of my partner's. And really being invested in my partner's pleasure, but not owning it or trying to take responsibility for it.
Tom Bruett:Being open to doing things that may enhance their pleasure, but not taking it on as your full responsibility.
Eric Bomyea:And being in an embodied state where I can first and foremost understand what's going on with myself. Is my thumb out or is my thumb in? What's happening there? And then being able to work with myself and then ultimately with somebody else to see what experiences I can have from there. With that, I am feeling very complete with this conversation, so we're just gonna make the rounds.
Eric Bomyea:Tim, how are you feeling? I feel complete. Tom?
Tom Bruett:Yeah. I I just wanna say like, I I am not an expert in this. I am in the trenches trying to figure this out for myself just as much as I'm trying to like help others, and so I just want to be very clear, I have not fully figured this out. It's still an exploration process for myself, and I hope that it's an exploration process for the rest of my life that I'm continuing to figure out, you know, what is more pleasurable, how can I be more embodied, what kind of sex do I want to have? Like I think these are they're certainly important things for me to think about for the rest of my life.
Timothy Bish:Thank you for saying that. It draws back on, what you were saying earlier when you're going to school and a lack of, queer resources in in your continuing education. We're not experts in queer men's embodiment either. We just are hopefully the beginning of a conversation that we will deepen and deepen. And so I love owning that because I'm willing to go back and correct anything that I got wrong.
Timothy Bish:I would also love for you to come back. Come back in a year. See what, like, what you know what mean? Like, what did we learn in the year? Because it isn't about getting it right, perfectly, I think.
Timothy Bish:It's about doing our best to shine a light of awareness and move in the right direction of growth and progress. And and that's really the mission. So thank you for saying it because we are allowed to continue to evolve. And if we don't do it, you know, who's going to? So so, yes, we are not held to the standard of perfection, and we're doing the best we can.
Eric Bomyea:That's right.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. So we'll come back in a year. Let's like keep talking.
Tom Bruett:You got it.
Eric Bomyea:And I love like, yeah, let's be brave explorers together. And like, keep exploring your journey. I'm gonna keep exploring mine. Tim, will you keep exploring this?
Timothy Bish:I mean, I'm committed to eye contact and central touching with every grinder blow job.
Tom Bruett:Wait. Wait.
Eric Bomyea:Actually, I do wanna go back to that because when you were describing that experience, was like, think I know the title of this episode. I think it's gonna be like like meditating while blowing. Right? Because like your definition of of mindfulness or meditation was like, are you connected to your senses? So what's a mindful blow job look like?
Timothy Bish:I love it.
Tom Bruett:I'm into it.
Timothy Bish:It will it'll be like it'll be research, and we'll bring back what we've learned. And then we'll we'll go to the next level. In the spirit of research.
Eric Bomyea:It is fun. I'm redownloading Grindr right after this. Just kidding. No. My mental health.
Tom Bruett:Just go to the dick,
Eric Bomyea:doc. You'll be fine. My mental health still can't handle it. It's fine. Alright.
Eric Bomyea:With that, now I'm feeling complete. As am I. Tom?
Tom Bruett:Me too.
Eric Bomyea:Well, Tim, will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish:Well, let's close our eyes or lower our gaze and take a deep inhale through the nose. Gentle exhale through the mouth. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for any insights, awarenesses, or understandings that we gained in the sacred shared space that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we called in. With these words, our container is open but not broken.