Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to share your favorite episode, leave a review, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, please send us a note. We'd love to hear from you. And now on to today's show.
Eric Bomyea:Today we ask what happens when we take sex out of the center of our conversations about identity, attraction, and intimacy? In this episode of The Circle, we welcome Hannah O'Rourke, a yoga teacher and early childhood care provider who identifies as asexual to help us explore a topic that's often misunderstood even within queer spaces. Together, we unpack the nuances of ace of the asexuality spectrum, the difference between romantic and sexual orientation, and how asexuality challenges our assumptions about what it means to be queer. Tim, Hannah, are you ready to go all in?
Hannah O'Rourke:Absolutely.
Eric Bomyea:I'm ready. Let's do this. Well, first of all, Hannah, welcome to the circle. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Hannah O'Rourke:Thank you.
Eric Bomyea:And so I'm just wondering, can we start with just sharing a little bit about your personal journey and how you came to identify as asexual and what that process was like for you?
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. So I probably started to identify as with the label of asexual probably around '23, '24. But looking back, I realized that that has been my identity my whole life. I just didn't have the vocabulary or the language to understand that that is what it was. So, yeah, I would say that it's like a little bit, you know, realizing realizing this about yourself in more of a finite way at an older age.
Hannah O'Rourke:Not that 23 is old, but just, you know, having had pretty good amount of life experience under my belt by that point, it definitely was a big shift in perspective while also being really comforting, actually, to sort of be like, okay. This is the why behind so many of these questions I've had growing up in in my experiences, but just I didn't have any language or awareness of of that space.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Could you bring us into some of those questions that you had been asking yourself?
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. So, you know, for me, when I started dating, I was around 14, 15. And while I felt, you know, intense romantic attraction and attachment to my high school boyfriend, I also was aware that that was the thing I was the most interested in. And while sex was part of my life, I kind of always was a little bit like it felt like a means to an end. Now granted, I was a teenager flooded with teenage hormones.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I think what some people don't understand with asexuality is it's not as though, you know, those nerve endings at that anatomy doesn't work. Right? It's not the same as a medical issue with that. So it was a little confusing because while I would feel the pull to engage in sexuality with my boyfriend, there was always just something about it where at a certain point, I was like, okay, this is kind of boring. Like, I I'd rather skip to the end, and we can, like, cuddle and talk and, like, go for a walk and hang out together.
Hannah O'Rourke:So it was just a little bit I wouldn't have been able to describe it back then, but it always felt a little bit like almost like, performative. Like, was aware because obviously growing up in the two thousands, I mean, there's been peaks and valleys, but it was one of the heights of, like, female kind of, patriarchal viewpoint. Right? Like, you can remember, like, the Victoria's Secret fashion show and
Eric Bomyea:Christina, Britney, the low rise jeans that were below the hips. Yeah.
Hannah O'Rourke:That were basically exposing your crotch. Yes. And and it was like this whole thing about, you know, you want to appeal to the male gaze. That is how you are validated. That's how you know your worth of something was to have the adoration or the attention of men or, you know, in my case, when I was that age of boys.
Hannah O'Rourke:So, yeah, it was just sort of like it felt as though I was checking a box. It felt as though I was sort of like, okay, like, you know, he desires me sexually, therefore, I'm valid. And that's what I would get out of it is a feeling of validation. Not realizing that for other people, it was actually more of a mutual endeavor. So that was sort of like something that I couldn't ever articulate back then.
Hannah O'Rourke:But now knowing what I know, I'm able to look back and say, oh, the reason why it was almost like, okay, like, I go to my boyfriend's house, we hang out, we have fun, we have sex, and then we get to, like, actually have fun together. So it wasn't that it wasn't like that. It wasn't that it was non consensual or anything like that. It was just that it was almost like I was missing a part of the script.
Timothy Bish:So I'm really curious. Thank you for sharing that. You know, as a young queer person, I remember, at a certain age, there was a lot of conversation amongst the boys about sex and sexual desire and things you want to do or things that you may have done. And I'd be curious if you're open to sharing a little bit about what you were hearing from your contemporaries and and how that felt different. Because I have to imagine it was giving you some clues that, oh, something here is not quite the same.
Timothy Bish:Am I right about that?
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. I mean, definitely. So kind of interestingly, whether or not it was the particular boyfriend I had at that time and whatever was influencing him, which, you know, back in that day also was like the heyday of like I mean, not heyday, but Internet porn was like just kind of becoming readily available. Right?
Timothy Bish:Phones were getting bigger again. Right.
Hannah O'Rourke:And it's like all of a sudden, like, you know, back then it not even phones, but it would be like, you know
Eric Bomyea:Napster.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You were
Eric Bomyea:on the peer to peer sharing networks, downloading porn, and all the the upcoming websites.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. And it was kind of a new frontier. Like, at this point, it's so oversaturated, and it's so like, yeah, everyone has seen everything, and it's whatever. But back then, it was a little more new. And so I think that that was influencing his behavior.
Hannah O'Rourke:And so when I would talk with my with my best friend who was also in a sexual relationship with her boyfriend or just in general with peers, there was always this point where they would say like, oh, you know, we did fill in the blank. And I'd be like, yeah. Like that's so duh. Like that's so boring. Like the stuff that my boyfriend and I were doing looking back was probably more the word.
Hannah O'Rourke:Hardcore. Yeah. It was probably more intense than the average teenage sexual experience, but it didn't resonate that way for me because honestly, all of sex kind of felt the same as like, I don't Like, checking a box. And it so it didn't have any impact. Like, friend be like, oh my god.
Hannah O'Rourke:My boyfriend, you know, wants to try anal, and I'm so nervous about that. Oh my god. I don't think, like, what is what are the implications of that? And I was like, like, literally, like, have you washed your hair before? Like, dude, it means nothing.
Hannah O'Rourke:It didn't nothing had any attached meaning for me. So I did start to kind of clue in and be like, oh, these things that hold weight, emotional weight, and meaning to my peers, I'm just kinda looking around like, yeah. Like, and and? Like, what do you mean? What does that mean?
Hannah O'Rourke:It literally means just what it is. Mhmm. So I kind of started to get clued in to be like, oh, okay. Like, my view on sex is a bit different than my friends. But at the time, because women were kind of praised for being hypersexual at that point, I was just like, oh, you know, I'm just more mature than they are.
Hannah O'Rourke:I'm just, you know, I just have a better handle on myself. I'm, in fact, my narrative is I'm just a very highly evolved sexual person. I'm very sexual. And that's why all of this stuff is par for the course.
Eric Bomyea:Because that was probably the language that was available at that time.
Hannah O'Rourke:Exactly. That really was. There was no yeah. There was no with in terms of, especially, like, female sexual identity, it was either are men choosing you as a sexual partner, therefore, you're legitimate and you're a valid person, or it's are you able to please men and keep them, you know, engaged with you and not wanting to go elsewhere for stuff. And there really wasn't any focus on what is your internal as a woman.
Hannah O'Rourke:What's your internal experience with sex? So because there wasn't any attention to that, I never asked myself the question. And I just sort of was like, oh, yeah. This is this is totally just like, you know, state of the union. It's all it's all as it is.
Eric Bomyea:I'm really interested in what you just said around, like, the internal feeling around sex.
Hannah O'Rourke:Mhmm.
Eric Bomyea:And if you're open to it, letting us into your felt experience around what does romance feel like in your body versus what does sex feel like?
Hannah O'Rourke:Totally. So for me, romance in my body and I'm honestly I'm not the most romantic or sentimental person. I do experience romantic attraction. But I'm not, you know, I'm not like the if my husband is gonna do something romantic for me, it's not gonna be like, oh, I got you flowers and jewelry. It's gonna be like, I cleaned the whole kitchen.
Eric Bomyea:Oh, acts of service.
Hannah O'Rourke:Top to bottom. It is sparkling. And I'm like, oh my god, that is so touching. I feel so cared for. I feel so seen.
Eric Bomyea:I also love an act of service.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. It's just Can relate. It's a little bit more of that to me. But that being said, for me, that is romantic. Yeah.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. So romance feels to me like butterflies or the feeling of like, oh my god, like, I'm so seen and cared for as a human of I'm appreciated. Right. Whereas sex, like I always say, if I'm trying to explain asexuality people, I'm like, have you ever had someone like you maybe you know them kinda well, well enough that when they see you, they give you a hug. And you don't think twice about that.
Hannah O'Rourke:You just give them that little, hey, how are you? Hug, and that's it. And to me, it's like that's kind of an equivalent of how sex feels in my body, which is like, I'm aware that I'm hugging you. I'm aware that we're doing this. It's fine.
Hannah O'Rourke:I've said yes. I'm comfortable to it. But that's pretty much it. There's not a whole lot else going on.
Eric Bomyea:It's a really helpful description. Thank you.
Timothy Bish:I'm actually really impressed, because I feel like in the gay male community, we we value sex so much, but, you know, I think a lot of that has to do with I'll speak for myself. It was a means of validation. It was a means of feeling safe, you know, all this stuff. And I wonder how many of us could as clearly describe our embodied experience of sex as the one you just described. You know?
Timothy Bish:And and, course, in embodiment practice, one of the main things that we do is start to try to listen and create a conversation with our own physical body and our sensations so that we can tap into these centers of wisdom and sort of bring everything online. You just described it in what seemed like a very thorough, understood way, and I'd be curious to know if we asked if we, like, went on the street right now, like, what is your embodied experience of sex for people who are having a lot of it and seeking a lot of it? I'd be I would be curious to know how how, fluent they would be in the in the language of sensation around this topic.
Hannah O'Rourke:Right. And it is an interesting thing because as I said before, it's like, you know, unless you have a medical condition where you are unable to feel physically, you know, objectively sex feels good. Right? And so for me, it's like it was never like it was physically painful or uncomfortable. It was like, yeah, okay.
Hannah O'Rourke:This feels good. But it you know, it's similar to like, oh, I went and got a pedicure and they rubbed my feet, and that felt good too.
Timothy Bish:Mhmm.
Hannah O'Rourke:Like, that's kind of Yeah. For me. And so with other people I am, I always kind of not relating to the other side of it. I am curious, like, does sex feel like a connecting of souls? Does it feel like a merging of two entities?
Hannah O'Rourke:Is it more just in the physical tactile realm? Is it more in the heady emotional realm? And I'd be curious to know that answer too. And I do kind of wonder how many people have taken the time to actually be like, okay, beyond the fact that it physically feels good, what else am I experiencing?
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I would say I think it can be all of the things that you mentioned, and I think it depends on context and the person. As I'm getting older, I find that an emotional attachment is really the thing that makes it extra hot. So as you kind of said, well, sure, we can go through the motions and kind of like push some buttons if we want, you know? Like for me, that's, you know, but I identify as a demisexual, which I believe is in the slice of asexuality.
Timothy Bish:I don't I'm pretty sure that's right. We could Google it. And so for me, it's like that's really the thing. Yeah. And without that, it still it still can it still happens.
Timothy Bish:Like, it can still be fine, but then it's it's missing something for me.
Hannah O'Rourke:Totally. And I'll I'll share. I asked his permission prior to this, but my husband also identifies as demisexual. So one of the things that when we were first dating and getting to know each other, you know, you share stories, you get to know each other. And I would talk about having, like, one night stands or whatever.
Hannah O'Rourke:And he'd be like, I've never had one of those. And I remember being like, I mean, come on. There's no way. Like, you're you can be honest with me. I'm not gonna judge you.
Hannah O'Rourke:And he's like, no. I I literally never have. It's not something my body can do. He's like, I have to feel a connection. And he was like, it's not to say that I haven't had sex with people that I wasn't in a relationship with.
Hannah O'Rourke:He's like, but they've always been friends. There has to be some kind
Timothy Bish:Mhmm.
Hannah O'Rourke:Of emotional connection. He's like, otherwise, I just it doesn't make sense to me. No. So, yeah, and that is under demisexuals under the umbrella of asexuality.
Timothy Bish:I thought so. Yeah. I got it. Well, so I'm also curious if if we can stay here for a second, you talked about, sex can feel good. The foot rub also felt good.
Timothy Bish:Mhmm. But it occurs to me, like, there might be an assumption that if you're asexual, it's kind of disgusting, and that's not what I'm hearing. So my first question is, is that an experience that you, like, bump into a lot, and what would you well, how do you communicate around that?
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. So, you know, within asexuality, asexuality is sort of think of it as an umbrella. And then within it is, as we talked about, demisexual, graysexual. Like, there's all these kind of, like, little categories within asexuality. And one of those categories is I forget the, like, actual name.
Hannah O'Rourke:I think I wrote down somewhere. But it's it's basically sex repulsed. So for some people, that is their experience. Sex, what I've read, is that sex can almost like imagine something that would sensory wise just overwhelm you. So for me, that would be walking through slimy seaweed.
Hannah O'Rourke:Oh.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. That that created a visceral.
Hannah O'Rourke:Right? It's so upsetting. I don't wanna think about it. I certainly don't wanna do it. And if I had to do it, I would be like, oh my god.
Hannah O'Rourke:Oh, no. The whole time would be horrible. Yeah. And for people that are identified as sex repulsed, that is for them what that would be. And then there's kind of more people like myself that are not I don't wanna say indifferent because I'm not indifferent.
Hannah O'Rourke:It's I just it's not my inclination to engage in sexuality. But if, for example, my husband had said, you know, I am just heterosexual, and I can't be in a relationship with someone that doesn't have that aspect, we I could have worked with that. So there's kind of a whole branch. But for me, actually, like, I would experience repulsion if I had no vested interest in it at all. So for example, if it was something like, someone was like, oh, I really I'd like to have sex.
Hannah O'Rourke:And in that moment, I was either feeling overwhelmed, touched out, tired. I wouldn't be able to then say, okay, you know, that's fine. Let's just do it. That would be repulsive to me. But in other past experiences, it's kind of been something where I'm like, if I'm in a space where I am okay with it, then it's fine.
Hannah O'Rourke:I'm not really gonna get anything out of it, but I'm okay with it.
Timothy Bish:I I would be interested. So is there a component of the thing you might get out of it is the offering of something sacred to someone special, someone meaningful.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yes. It's that you're it's an act of service to somebody else. Right? It's that, you know, you're making them feel good. You're filling their cup.
Hannah O'Rourke:It but it really has nothing. It's not a two way street.
Timothy Bish:Yeah.
Hannah O'Rourke:And then I've noticed though, as I've gotten older, I think a lot about this quote, that Kim Cattrall from Sex and the City said, which is like, I basically, it's like, if I'm not having fun, I don't wanna do it for even a moment. And as I've gotten older, that's honestly been more my experience, which is like, I've become less like, oh, like, let me pour into your cup in this way.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm.
Hannah O'Rourke:And luckily, because my husband is also on the asexual spectrum, you know, this works. But I think if I was with someone that expected a heteronormative sexual experience, at this stage in my life, it would breed quite a lot of resentment. Because it would feel like I can give I have so many other things to give that will make you feel comforted, safe, loved, doted on. It's just not gonna be a sexual release. And a little bit, if you need that, like, how about it?
Hannah O'Rourke:You have a hand. Right. You don't need me. And, you know, but it's interesting. Like, when my husband and I were just dating, and I was sort of having this realization about myself, I had the thought where I was like, if I say to him, you know, I'm realizing I'm asexual.
Hannah O'Rourke:And although the sex we have together is enjoyable because I know it's fulfilling for you, doesn't really do a lot for me. And then sometimes I can feel almost like burdened by it. Because it's kind of like, you know, the same way that if someone was like, oh, like, I'm so overwhelmed by my chores. And you're like, well, I'll do your laundry for you. And the friend's like, oh, that makes me feel so good.
Hannah O'Rourke:Thank you. But then every week, they're like, did you do my laundry? Mhmm. You'd be like, no. Fuck off.
Hannah O'Rourke:Like, do your own laundry sometimes. And so my husband, I kind of had this conversation. I was like, this is where I'm at. You know, if this is an issue for you, if it's a deal breaker for you, we can explore other options, other ideas. But this is where I'm at, and I'm not really willing to budge that much.
Hannah O'Rourke:And luckily for him and for me, he was very open to that conversation. But, you know, I think that at this stage in my life, I've given enough in that arena Right. It feels.
Timothy Bish:I'd love to share a story because I, I can relate. I think this might be the demisexual in me. I don't know. But I was dating this person, an ex of mine, and was about to go away for a month to film a movie in North Carolina. Was living in New York City.
Timothy Bish:I was gonna go to North Carolina. And my my ex, my boyfriend at the time, he was kind of jealous and worried that I was gonna be gone. So right before I was leaving, he was trying to have, like, all the sex, so much sex. And I I don't know if I'm like, if the idea is that you're gonna sort of give me all the
Hannah O'Rourke:Tire you out?
Timothy Bish:Tire me out. Yeah. Yeah. So that I don't have this compulsion later. I'm like, don't think it really works that way.
Timothy Bish:But I remember, the reason I bring it up is I started to feel burdened by it. I'm like, this this isn't how I would rather have had one really, like, sweet magical moment than to try to have seven, like, check it off the list kind of moments. And I remember there was a point I was, like, annoyed because I'm like, this isn't how this is supposed to be in in my head, my heart, or my body. Yes. And so I can relate to that, like, well, if I'm gonna do it, it's gotta be because there's something in it for me.
Timothy Bish:And if what's in it for me is just Validating you. Yeah. And, like, making you feel less jealous and then also recognizing that isn't how that works. Yes. In two days from now, I could potentially find someone attractive.
Timothy Bish:I mean, like Right. This isn't gonna work the way you want it to, but
Hannah O'Rourke:100%. No. I totally relate to that. And it's it is that feeling of almost like, I don't know, like, if you were caring for someone that was ill, and they had like a little bell to ring when they needed you. And it was like, they ring the bell, you bring them a glass of water.
Hannah O'Rourke:You get back to the kitchen, and as you step back in the kitchen, they're like, ding ding ding. You're like, oh my god. Like, again? Like, what do you want? And it's kind of like, exactly.
Hannah O'Rourke:It's sort of like, if the if there was gonna be something in there where you were like, I know you're insecure. Let's have this really special moment and reaffirm, get rid of that insecurity, kind of like have that feeling of togetherness to reassure you. That's something where you're like, okay, yeah, I'm I'm willing to give that to you because I care about you. But then beyond that, you're just like, dude, what do you want?
Timothy Bish:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Timothy Bish:Exactly.
Eric Bomyea:Full disclosure, I am kind of that person in relation. I'm not that I I am not somebody that can easily go out and hook up and I do have to have a I don't know if it's an emotional connection, but it has to be safe. I have to feel safe with somebody in order for my biology to work. If I don't feel safe, I'm not getting a boner. It's just not gonna happen.
Eric Bomyea:I will be in my head in fight or flight mode and it's just not gonna happen. I have to have that safety with the person. And then once I have it, I'm insatiable sometimes. I am like, I am that person with the ding, ding, ding. Right?
Eric Bomyea:Because it it is such an intimate moment because then there might be a moment of greed there coming in of like, oh, I feel so intimate. I feel so safe. I wanna hold on to this safety. Yeah. And so this is a way that I keep getting my safety met.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Right? Or my intimacy met.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I think for a lot of people that is the case. That like, you know, there's a lot of it's, you know, interesting crossover between sexual proclivity and attachment theory.
Timothy Bish:Mhmm.
Hannah O'Rourke:And how does that how does your personal way of attaching to people play out within that scope or I think that but a lot of people, as you just said, you can identify. I need to feel emotional connection. But then once I feel that, it's so wonderful. It's so great that I just wanna re up it all the time. And I think that but that's like a question you have to ask yourself.
Hannah O'Rourke:I think a lot of people, if they were to say people that would describe maybe their sex life as being unfulfilling or not what they hope it would be, my question to them be like, well, what are what are you hoping to get out of it? Because if you're just as a culture, we're so hypersexualized that I think it's just like, well, I don't know. I'm hoping to get sex out of it. It's like, okay. But like, if you're not feeling fulfilled or satisfied by that experience, what's missing?
Hannah O'Rourke:Right? And like for me, when I asked myself what's missing, the answer was I just don't care about this. And what you were saying about, like, if you having to have a sense of safety or whatever, interestingly enough, like for me, I didn't need to feel safe, quote unquote. I mean, I needed to feel like the person wasn't gonna kill me or, like, you know, that I wasn't, like, you know, the Craigslist killer's next victim. Yeah.
Hannah O'Rourke:But it really because there was no there was no deeper meaning to sex for me that other than the physical act. Like I said, like, when my husband was like, you've had one night stands? I'm like, well, yeah. Like
Eric Bomyea:Have you hugged somebody?
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. Exactly. Like, have you said hey on the street to somebody? Like, I don't need to feel because sex is just that. It is a physical exchange for me.
Hannah O'Rourke:And because there is no deeper emotional impact or meaning, I don't need to feel a connection to the person on any kind of level other than physically, I think you're attractive. But even then, that's kind of like where I've explained to people before where people like, so you don't find people if you're asexual, you don't think people are attractive. Like, oh, no. I absolutely experience attraction. But for most people, the order of operations would be see someone who you think is hot.
Hannah O'Rourke:You have that rush of hormone and emotion. You think, oh my god, I really want them to notice me or talk to me. I want to flirt with them. I want to get that validation, and I want to be in the presence of someone I find attractive. And then for most people, then they'd say, and I'd like to then get to know them better and have sex with them and get to know their bodies.
Hannah O'Rourke:For me, it's like, oh, they're really attractive. Like, it would be fun to flirt with them. Mhmm. That's where it stops. The process does not continue.
Hannah O'Rourke:It can if I decide it will, but there's nothing biological in me that's like does wants that.
Timothy Bish:Well, is really interesting because I feel like you're shedding a light. You know, we talk about the the way that we prioritize sex, the way that we think about sex, and I would argue, and especially with porn, I think we think about sex as it's supposed to be this really big explosive moment, and not just explosive with regards to orgasm, but that too. Mhmm. But, like, it it usually has an an ending, but it's all it's like this super heightened, super heightened. And I don't think there's a very robust conversation happening about how sex evolves in a long term relationship.
Timothy Bish:And so I and I think there needs to be that. And so how can sex be different? Well, I think first and foremost, sex not always having to be explosive, energetically even. Yeah. Maybe maybe maybe it doesn't always have to culminate in an orgasm.
Timothy Bish:Right?
Eric Bomyea:Some of the best sex I've ever had didn't have an orgasm. Right? Like, some of the best sexual experiences is that I can remember, no orgasm involved.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. But I think it can open up, like, a lot of possibility to different kinds of sex. I will tell a quick story that this is not a sex story, but, I was in a did I tell you? If I told this already, I'm sorry. But I was in a partnered, naked yoga class that I had never gone to in New York City.
Timothy Bish:And I was with my friend, and he and I had been intimate prior to then. But we were doing you know, it was it was a yoga class, so we weren't we weren't there to have sex. And it but it was very flirty. It was very touchy. And so at the end, when we left, we walked down you put our clothes on.
Timothy Bish:We walked downstairs, and we kinda looked at each other and be like, well, it would be really fun to go home and hook up now and sort of close this. But we both were like, but actually, this was so interesting and unique. Why don't we just leave it? And we did. And it's one of the moments that I think about because it was a totally different kind of sexy than anything I had had before.
Timothy Bish:And I think there's a benefit in talking about lots of different kinds of sexy.
Hannah O'Rourke:Definitely.
Eric Bomyea:Deeply intimate. Right? Like, was It sounded like a very intimate
Timothy Bish:I liked him. I trusted him. We were being tactile. We had some parameters. So, you know and it was, yeah, it was a totally different kind of interaction.
Timothy Bish:Right.
Eric Bomyea:And it kind of like, can we take sex out of intimacy? Right. Can we be intimate with people without sex? And something that I was really hearing when I was talking to you is the depth of your intimacy really is based off of heart energy and depth of conversational connection.
Hannah O'Rourke:An emotional connection.
Eric Bomyea:Because some of the conversations that I heard you talk about that you have had with your husband before you guys got married, I was like, wow. These are, like, really deep personal intimate conversations that I'm hearing.
Hannah O'Rourke:Oh, definitely. And, like, when people say that kind of idea of, like, can there be intimacy without sex? For me, I'm like, 100%. That's a, you know, a no brainer. And it's it's, you know, it's not just like, you know, the example I gave before.
Hannah O'Rourke:Like, my husband cleans the kitchen, and I feel so special and and cared for and whatever. Or he, you know, buys me a present that he knows that I've been looking at online and wanted or something. It's also like people assume also, I think a lot of times that asexuality comes with like a immediate link to like not wanting physical touch at all. My husband and I are so physically intimate. You know, we cuddle, we hug.
Hannah O'Rourke:Like, I literally Like, when we were sleeping, our If our dogs aren't in the middle of us, I am like on his back like a little backpack. Like, is so much there is so many ways to be physically intimate that aren't attached to sex. And I think people think of sex as the ultimate, almost like the the goal of intimacy. But in my experience, you can a 100% remove sex and have not just intimacy, but romantic intimacy with somebody if they're on the same page with you.
Timothy Bish:Have you ever seen the movie The Opposite of Sex?
Hannah O'Rourke:I haven't.
Timothy Bish:It's got Christina Ricci. It has Lisa Kudrow and some other Two
Hannah O'Rourke:of my favorites.
Timothy Bish:There's some it's a it's a really interesting I think it came out in the nineties. And, anyway, there was this one conversation. One of the characters said, what if sex isn't about procreation? What if it's about concentration? Right?
Timothy Bish:And, like, this moment of so rather than, oh, I'm gonna have I'm gonna have a physiological experience with you, He was sort of suggesting, well, what if it's just about two people coming together? And then if that was one way of defining it, then that could exist in all kinds of ways that wouldn't necessarily require certain kinds of stimulation or penetration or, you know, it's like, oh, if what I'm doing is coming and, like, giving you my concentration, my full attention, you're doing the same for me. Yeah. Then that to me feels like it could expand the definition beyond a certain set of physical acts that have to, like, fit into this slice.
Hannah O'Rourke:Absolutely. I mean, when you were saying that, it made me actually think of a former partner that I have that I had. And he had been going through a very tough time in his life, and he had been, away for about two months. When he finally came home, I remember very, very specifically, we had this, you know, reunion. I'd missed him so much.
Hannah O'Rourke:We'd lived together. It had been very hard to be apart. And we were having sex. And I remember though having this moment where I was like, this is so lovely. We're so connected.
Hannah O'Rourke:I've missed him so much. I just like feel so so connected to him. But realizing that if we what if we weren't actually having sex, I would have the same feeling if we were just lying in bed together, if we were just being together, that the sex part was kind of arbitrary in a way. And I think a lot of people, out of an almost knee jerk reaction, probably think, like, this is the validating way to say, okay, check. Yes.
Hannah O'Rourke:I I'm into I have an intimate connection with somebody. But it's sort of like, there are as you said, there are so many ways. Intimacy does not I mean, if you think about the general idea of intimacy, you can have an intimate relationship with a friend that's completely platonic, but you share a deep level of intimacy with them. It doesn't so we I think we get we confused because if I were to say to someone, oh, you know, your dearest best friend, do you feel an intimate connection? Be like, oh, of course.
Hannah O'Rourke:But that same person, if I were to say, can you experience intimacy without sex? If they're thinking romantically, might not understand that those two things can cross over.
Eric Bomyea:I'm curious. As many queer spaces, this town, Provincetown, centers a lot around sexual liberation. What has it been like navigating those spaces, this town, as somebody who doesn't necessarily, like Yeah. Truly connect with that?
Hannah O'Rourke:So it's interesting. I think, you know, speaking from my own perspective, some asexual people, if they've realized that this is who they are early on, they might never have had sex. They might never have had any kind of sexual encounter. For myself, that's not true. Having realized it a little bit later on, you know, I've definitely had a lot of experiences.
Hannah O'Rourke:And so, in a way, I can relate. Right? If someone tells a funny story or a joke, it's not as though I'm like, wow, like that's a foreign alien concept to me. I'm like, oh, that is funny. Like, I have I can relate to that.
Hannah O'Rourke:Where it does become a little bit, not even alienating, but it does kind of make you feel other is when that is the sole focus of everything. And people also assume, you know, they assume you're a person who's partnered with somebody. So they'll assume that that means sexual stuff. And so there's definitely been times when someone will make a and it's all in fun, but like a joke about like, oh, you know, like say I was at the gym, like, you know, oh, like, you know, your husband's gonna be happy to see you later or something like that. And I just sort of smile and say, You know, I'm not gonna get into it with perfect strangers, but there is sort of this assumption if you're happy and you're partnered that you're having sex.
Hannah O'Rourke:So there are times when I either just gloss over it or I say, oh, yeah, for sure. Or, you know, some just kind of it's easier just to sort of
Eric Bomyea:Placate.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah, to placate. But it does sometimes leave you feeling a little bit like, you know, the cheese stands alone. Like, you know, so but I would also say that Provincetown being a it's a, you know, queer town for sure. But if you look at, like, for example, if you look at our US census, it's I think I forget the percentage, but way more percentage of men than there are women. So it's kind of like female sexuality in P town is on the back burner anyway.
Hannah O'Rourke:I would say the exception of, like, you know, you walk past Toys of Eros, and you have good representation. Right? There's stuff of all kinds in that window. It's not just about the male experience. But beyond that, like, it's pretty male gaze y around here.
Hannah O'Rourke:So in a weird way, I kind of like that invisibility, that kind of overlooking of the female sexual experience, whether it's straight, lesbian, whatever, you kind of get to, like, fly under cover of night in a way because people aren't that interested in in that experience from you anyway.
Timothy Bish:When you were telling that story, I I kind of flashed to Commercial Street, and then I also flashed to, like, TV shows and so we have all these ideas of how we have a sexy experience, meaning not not a sexual experience but a sexy like, oh, so I put on a ball gown or I put on like, this really tight shorts or the, you know, the tank top. And so, would you be willing to to share, like, ways in which you have that for yourself?
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. So I always joke. I'm an only child, and I'm like an only child in every sense of the word. In that, for me, that feeling of like, oh, I'm gonna wear my cutest tank top and like my cutest, you know, shorts or whatever it is, and I'm gonna go out. It's all it's pretty much me, myself, and I.
Hannah O'Rourke:So, like, for me, if I'm going to put on an outfit that I think looks really good, that I feel really sexy in, it has nothing to do with other people finding me sexy. It's about do I look in the mirror and say, oh, girl, you look so good. Like, it's really and I, like, I say that with everything else where I'm like, you know, in terms of I don't have outward competition. With people like, let's play a pickup game of soccer. I'm like, oh, crap.
Hannah O'Rourke:Like, I can't I don't care. I don't really care
Timothy Bish:at all.
Hannah O'Rourke:But if you were to say, you know, hey, you're gonna try and beat your own mile time, then I'm like, heck yeah. Like, let's do this. Previous me, you're fucked. Like, that's where
Timothy Bish:also deep
Hannah O'Rourke:deeply loved. Deeply loved. But also like you're a dumb bitch and I'm gonna school you right now. So for me, it really is kind of all inward, which, you know, on the surface sounds a bit narcissistic. But I don't know.
Hannah O'Rourke:It's it's about having the relationship with yourself first. And like if I'm wearing a cute outfit and someone goes like, hey, girl, you look so good. Or like someone's like, oh my god, you look so hot. It's obviously an ego boost. I definitely everybody, you know, will feel good when you say or someone's like, oh my god, your body is looking amazing.
Hannah O'Rourke:Like, I'm not gonna be like, oh, how dare you? I'm like, thank you. But I could have a 100 people tell me that I've never looked better. And if I look in the mirror and I don't feel that way, it means nothing to me. That external validation kind of rings super hollow.
Hannah O'Rourke:And sometimes I wish it would be more powerful. Right? Because people who are like, my god, you look so good. And if I could actually be like, oh, thank you. That has actually made me feel that way.
Hannah O'Rourke:It would be a lot easier, I feel, sometimes.
Timothy Bish:It's I'm like, it's fascinating. I'm I'm feeling I'm feeling a little envious because it does feel like when you're connected to it, I mean, you said it's potentially narcissistic or it sounds like that, but it also sounds like a lot of conscious self love. And it'd be like, oh, I'm the compass
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah.
Timothy Bish:On on this experience, and that sounds refreshing. It's like, oh, if I could just like my outfit and walk down Commercial Street and not need anything from anyone else, I mean, sign me up. That sounds, you know? And obviously I try to do that, but of course I then will wonder, did they notice me because of all of my programming and the way And I get what you're saying, you look at the, you know, you're passing a window and you see your reflection and that fills you up. Like, that sounds great.
Eric Bomyea:Like, first of all,
Timothy Bish:I'm so happy for you. Let's walk down Commercial Street together in some cute tank tops and shorts and, like, see if I can it'll rub off on me. But, like, it sounds like really self love and it sounds like, when you can tap into it, a really comfortable, stable experience.
Hannah O'Rourke:Definitely. And it's it's funny, like, that when you're describing that, like, I I'm always a bit self conscious where I'm like, when I walk down the street, car window, shop window, I'm like, oh, hey, girl.
Eric Bomyea:And like,
Hannah O'Rourke:you look so good today. And it's like, but I and I truly get that kind of that feeling of whoo that you would get if someone else said that to you. And like I said, obviously, if someone else pays me that kind of compliment, I like it. It makes me feel good. It definitely gives me like my fluffs my feathers a little bit.
Hannah O'Rourke:But at the end of the day, if I felt like I if I wasn't feeling that way and someone said it, it does nothing for me. It's almost like I'm like, yeah, but I don't believe you, so it doesn't matter. It is all very centered in yourself.
Eric Bomyea:Right. If the experiences don't line up. Yes. If my internal experience is telling me one thing and you're trying to tell me another, like, they don't match. So
Hannah O'Rourke:Exactly. Them.
Eric Bomyea:It's not
Timothy Bish:doing it.
Hannah O'Rourke:It means nothing in that case. Mhmm. Yeah. Very much so. But and it, you know, as I like, when I say it sounds narcissistic, it in a way, it's kind of like, you know, we we can think about things as like, you know, healthy amount of ego versus an unhealthy amount.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I honestly think for myself, like, it's not as though I don't, like, I don't see myself in the mirror and say, oh, you look so good today, and then think, and you're better than everyone else. That would be the narcissism. Right? Correct. It's more that it's just like, I am my own my most important person is me.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I think growing up as an only child in kind of a rural place, you know, I had to be my most important person. When I would play with my toys, I was the only one there. So I had to make sure I cultivated a really rich inner life, a really rich inner connection. And I think that is partly why being asexual, for me at least, it doesn't affect my self esteem. I've read on lots of forums people who are like, I feel so ashamed.
Hannah O'Rourke:I feel like what's wrong with me. But because it feels authentic to me and it matches up, then I don't question it.
Eric Bomyea:For somebody that might be questioning if they are asexual or they might be feeling shame around their identity, what's one thing that you would want them to hear?
Hannah O'Rourke:You are no less valid an adult, a person. You have it's not that you have less to contribute if you don't resonate with sex. For me, once, you know, once I started getting older and those teenage hormones started to wear off, and I wasn't kind of able to use them as a nice veil to distract me from my actual experience, it was this moment where I was like, oh gosh, like, something's wrong with me. You know? If what adult isn't interested in sex?
Hannah O'Rourke:What mature human doesn't want sex, doesn't get something out of it? You know, I must have Peter Pan syndrome. I'm there's something wrong with me. But I would just want everyone to if they're thinking like, why doesn't sex make me feel any particular way? Or even if it's like, why do I feel repulsed by it?
Hannah O'Rourke:Sex has been put on a pedestal in our culture and in our, you know, society, but it's not real. It's just it's just not real at all. And you're no less valid at fill in the blank adult, spouse, person, if that's not part of it for you. And I think a lot of people think, oh, arrested development or even a lot of the feedback when you say you're asexual is like, oh, what happened? Oh.
Hannah O'Rourke:Oh. Like, what happened to you? And it's like, nothing. Nothing happened. For some people, asexuality can be born from a trauma response.
Hannah O'Rourke:But to me, how is that any different than somebody who's like, oh, I was married to a female who's like, I was married to a man, and it was such a horrible toxic relationship that I don't ever wanna date men again. I wanna date women. Whether or not that person was born a lesbian or if their environmental influences have made them more have more proclivity towards that, we don't question it. We don't say like, oh, but like, maybe give men another try. So it's kind of just one more time.
Hannah O'Rourke:Maybe it'll work. It's kind of like, this is this is just as valid as any other person saying this is my sexual boundary. This is my experience.
Timothy Bish:It's fascinating that you said that. I flashed to, I'm talking all all about my exes, but I had another ex that was celebrating the New Year, and he was telling his story about coming out. And he came out to his his twin brother and his dad, and the dad said to him, he's like, Well, have you ever been with a woman? And he said, No. He's like, Well, then how do you know that you're gay if you've never been with a woman?
Timothy Bish:And his response was, he was like, Well, did you have to be with a woman to know you wanted to be? So it's interesting, like, the moments where we will question things and the moments when we won't because it's like, right. No one you you knew you were straight before you had straight sex.
Hannah O'Rourke:Right.
Timothy Bish:But now you're gonna ask me. And it's like, oh, because there's a part of me you don't understand, which is fine. Part of what we're trying to do is create understanding, but it's an interesting thing to have to manage. Like, answering a question, lots of people never have to answer.
Hannah O'Rourke:And it's also, as you said, it's also managing people's expectations. You know, and it's hard to say how accurate this is. But, like and because asexuality is somewhat new in terms of being a open concept. But I think right now, it's saying that, like, 1%, maybe slightly less of the population identifies as asexual. And that's like tiny.
Hannah O'Rourke:Right? 1%. But a little bit, I'm kind of like, well, if you were to rewind to like 1920, and you were to pull how many men identify as gay, it would have been significantly less than now because it just wasn't talked about. It wasn't verbalized. It wasn't seen as even an option.
Hannah O'Rourke:And so a little bit, I sort of think about that where it's like, you know, how many people, if you really stop to think about it, would say, you know, maybe you don't identify as full stop asexual. But on that spectrum, as you said, where you're like, wait a minute, I don't wanna just hook up with random guys. I need to have a physical connection or else it won't work. And it's kinda like if you were to within whether you're straight, gay, whatever, I think it's interesting like, yeah, it's one percent. But how many people actually, if they had the understanding would be like, oh, actually, I resonate a bit with that.
Timothy Bish:Well, I mean, I just I just discovered the term demisexual, like, not that long ago. So, yes, if you would ask me two years ago, are you demisexual? I don't know. I probably I probably would have said I would not have identified such because I didn't know it was a thing.
Hannah O'Rourke:Or if someone said, do you identify any part of you as being asexual? You would have said, well, no. I have sex with partners, so I'm not asexual.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. I would no. That's that's even more well said. Yes. That's exactly right.
Timothy Bish:And then it was a discovery. So the understanding and the language around it helps us. And I think you're right. The more we understand it, the more we might recognize, a shared experience.
Hannah O'Rourke:Right. And I'll say that, you know, I had the privilege of because I have had a sexual past, nobody could challenge me with like, well, but you haven't tried it, so how do you know? In fact, I'd be like, oh, like, trust me, I have enough experiences to know. There
Eric Bomyea:Do you wanna see my lipstick case?
Hannah O'Rourke:Literally, like, I'm like, I'm no need to ask if I'm uninformed. I'm very well informed. So I feel, you know, lucky that that never was questioned in that regard. But I will say that, for example, you know, it was just in the last couple years that I started actually, you know, when you go to your doctor and says, how do you identify? All of a sudden, asexual pops up on the menu.
Hannah O'Rourke:And so this was probably, like, five years ago or so, and I thought, oh my gosh. Like, there I am. That's so cool. Like, I'm gonna check it off because previously, I've always just put straight because I'm married to a man, and it's just like, that's easiest. When I went to that doctor's appointment, she was like, oh, and I noticed you marked asexual.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I was like, oh, yeah. Mhmm. Like, kind of expecting it not to be anything. She's like, well, basically, she went down this rabbit hole of like, do you think there's something medically wrong with you? Like, are you able to feel aroused?
Hannah O'Rourke:And I'm like, well, yeah, but that's not the point. And it's like, well, okay. Like, oh, oh, I noticed you're on an SSRI. That's probably a hot culprit. That's a part of why you don't feel sexual attraction.
Hannah O'Rourke:It's like, no. You know, this sort of, like, needing to find a reason for the behavior. Just similarly how, you know, for gay men way back I mean, not actually, sadly, not way back when, very recently. In fact, it's almost like, oh, like, what like, when you were a kid, did something happen? Did did is there a medical is there a mental reason, a psychological psychological reason?
Hannah O'Rourke:Reason? It's It's like, not at all, bitch. Like, it's like, are you kidding me? So but there is sort of that feeling of people don't because there's not a lot of verbiage out there for it. Even medical professionals are kind of looking for the why because it seems strange.
Hannah O'Rourke:For most people, the idea that sex means nothing is very foreign.
Timothy Bish:Well, to take a thing that we have so glamorized in our world, and that we've all sort of silently agreed it's the most important thing or one of the most important things, and then suddenly you meet a person who isn't impacted in in the same way, yeah, it's like there there's not enough understanding. There is an episode of, The Big Bang Theory. Have you watched The Big Bang Theory?
Hannah O'Rourke:A little yeah.
Timothy Bish:Okay. With Sheldon it's one of my favorite, TV shows. But, Sheldon was talking to Penny, and he was talking about, he was talking about sexual attraction. He's like, he's like, you know, and then this for sexual attraction, assuming you're afflicted with such. It was like this laugh line.
Timothy Bish:Of course, the character of Penny was like, you know, okay. Because she was, like, beautiful and had lots of boyfriends and whatever. Mhmm. But it was really funny because of it was just like, oh, they made the joke about switching the perspective. From him from him, it wasn't like that he was missing anything.
Timothy Bish:He was like, instead, you're burdened. Yeah. You're you're all burdened by a thing that I'm that I'm not burdened by. And I and that's why it was such a big laugh line too because, the doctor should be
Eric Bomyea:asking you these questions.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. And that's so interesting too because I definitely I'm an observer. I'm definitely that person at a party who's sitting there watching everybody, and and it just that's kind of humans interest me in that way. I love people watching. And so it's funny.
Hannah O'Rourke:I'll you know, when I work out at the gym here, and if I'm like taking a rest or in between something, and I'll look around, and it'll be like, you know, a guy who has like he's holding a dumbbell, but he's not doing anything because he's just like staring at this other guy way across the gym. It's like he's frozen in time. Right? And it's like you were in the middle of a curl, and then you were like, And now you're just off thinking whatever you're thinking.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I often have this thought where I'm like, oh, what a bummer to be so easily distracted from present moment. Yeah. From the present moment by this kind of amorphous concept. And that's always been something that for me is interesting where it's like, don't because I you know, people I forget what it's like, the study that's people think about sex a certain cadence a day. Right?
Hannah O'Rourke:If it's like every few minutes or something. I almost never do, especially not provoked. It's not something that I'm just sitting there and I'm all of sudden I'm like, oh, bam.
Eric Bomyea:Text.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. Just doesn't happen. And so from my perspective, it is like, wow. Like, how much of your time goes to thinking about that? Are you are you do you want it?
Hannah O'Rourke:Are you getting enough of it? What does it mean if you're not? How like, all these Is it with the right person? They're with the right person. Could it be better?
Hannah O'Rourke:All of these things where I'm just like, oh, wow. That would take up so much mental effort and energy that I just don't spend on that at all.
Timothy Bish:So again, it sounds like kind of a luxury.
Hannah O'Rourke:I mean, in a sense, like, you know, actually Once I became comfortable with the idea of it, because at first I wasn't. Like, you know, when I And in my own way, feel like I, you know, came out as asexual in the sense that I always Like, my behavior was always kind of in alignment with asexuality, but my mind wasn't. And I hadn't accepted it about myself. Because it did. I bought into the rhetoric that if you're an adult that doesn't enjoy sex, something is wrong with you.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm.
Hannah O'Rourke:I really resonate with the like, oh, and if you're afflicted by that Mhmm. Because it's like, wow. Yeah. Like, before now that I'm understand it, now that I've had a lot of thought about it, I actually feel immensely lucky that that's not something that distracts me or that takes up to preoccupies too much space in my head. If I'm, you know, not getting laid, it doesn't say anything about me.
Hannah O'Rourke:I don't care. Like, it doesn't I'm not thinking like, oh god, it's been eight months. I must be getting hideous. That's why it's happening. It's I'm so horrible and gross.
Hannah O'Rourke:It's like, I don't spend any energy on that whatsoever.
Eric Bomyea:Wow. Because what what I love so much about this conversation is the permission that this label can give to folks and also almost the permission that you've given me to take some of that energy that I direct so outward into the world and really bring it in, bring it home. Mean, RuPaul says it, how the hell are you gonna love somebody else if you can't love yourself? And this is such a beautiful example of that, of how much time we do spend seeking external when some of that could be directed internal. And there's no right or wrong here.
Hannah O'Rourke:No, there's not.
Eric Bomyea:It's going to be different for each person and each person is going to have their own fulfillment just like you do. Yeah. Your sense of intimacy is very different than somebody else's sense of intimacy.
Hannah O'Rourke:And I definitely I really love that RuPaul quote. And I there's another Oscar Wilde, and I don't remember the exact quote, but it's, the relationship with you have with yourself is the most important one of your lifetime. And that really resonates for me. And in fact, when I realized, oh, it's not just that I'm lukewarm on sex or that I don't really get it. Like, oh, this is actually like the label does give me a feeling of permission.
Hannah O'Rourke:It was a feeling of like, almost as though like, I had this moment. Was like, I'm so sorry I've been making you perform in ways that weren't real for you. I'm so sorry that I was putting an agenda on you. Didn't mean anything to you. And now that I know that, it was a much better connection with myself.
Eric Bomyea:About to cry because I'm like, like, I need to do that with my body. I need to, like, apologize hardcore to my body for all of the pressure and situations that I've put myself through to try to be something, do something. Right. I'm sorry, but I love you just the
Hannah O'Rourke:way you
Timothy Bish:are. And
Hannah O'Rourke:you know what? You don't know what you don't know till you know it. And so while I was saying, I'm so sorry that I put us in situations that weren't authentic to us, I didn't know better at the time. And now that I know better, I will do better. And for me, that's been such a affirming thing.
Timothy Bish:And it sounds like it was a valid part of your journey in coming to the understanding.
Hannah O'Rourke:Definitely.
Timothy Bish:Right? So rather than going back and like, now you can say, well, what I can do is make an empowered choice moving forward about what is authentic to me. Right. And not because, I mean, I think this is important with a lot of, like, going back and kind of healing our our inner children
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah.
Timothy Bish:Not beating ourselves up for not being the person we would be now Yep. Then, but rather just like, oh, well, that happened, and now what? Like, what have I learned, and now what? Honoring, that happened.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah.
Timothy Bish:But maybe it won't happen anymore. Or if it does happen again, it's gonna happen differently because I have greater understanding and I have I can make more conscious choices about it in the greatest good for for all involved.
Hannah O'Rourke:Yeah. You And, know, when you say inner child, I really think about how the way I interact with my inner child is I think about my adult self now. And I you know, for the record, I had fantastic parents. My mom and dad are amazing. They were so supportive and loving.
Hannah O'Rourke:I have literally I'm very privileged to say I have no complaints about how I was raised or my parents' relationship with me. But when I think about my inner child, what I think about is those moments say when I was 15, I was hooking up with my high school boyfriend, and I felt like this is kind of weird. I feel kind of uncomfortable, but not enough to stop it, but just something's not right. Now I can show up for her. And as the adult self, it's almost like I'm not reparenting, but I'm like the big sister I didn't have.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm. And
Hannah O'Rourke:so now, if I feel myself being like, oh, I should probably like, if we're if I'm in a group, we're all talking about sex, I'm like, oh, I should share something even though it doesn't feel authentic. I almost picture like my self now putting my hand on the shoulder of my younger self and saying, that's okay. You don't have to. You're valid in the conversation just as is. You don't have to.
Hannah O'Rourke:And it's very affirming.
Timothy Bish:That's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.
Eric Bomyea:Thank you for sharing this time with us today. Yeah. Thank you for bringing your experience to us, the vulnerability that you brought and the intimacy that we were able to create through that. I'm feeling very, very complete. How about you, Tim?
Timothy Bish:I feel complete.
Hannah O'Rourke:I love that.
Eric Bomyea:Anna, do you feel complete?
Hannah O'Rourke:Definitely. It was a lovely conversation.
Eric Bomyea:Thank you. Tim, will you take us out, please?
Timothy Bish:Absolutely. Let's draw our spine tall, close our eyes, or lower our gaze and just bring a lot of appreciation and gratitude for this conversation and for any awarenesses or insights or understandings that may be of service to you, to us, to our community. And now we release the spirits that we called in, and with these words, our container is open but not broken.
Eric Bomyea:Uh-huh. Uh-huh.