Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to share your favorite episode and leave us a review. And if you're curious about the work that we do and the practices we've mentioned on the show, head on over to myembodiment.com, that's myembodiment.com, to join our new community. You can practice along with us and people from all over the world and ask us questions about anything you've heard us talk about on the show. Today, we're exploring forgiveness, not just as a lofty idea, but as a lived, felt, and sometimes painful practice.
Eric Bomyea:Forgiveness for others, forgiveness for ourselves, and how we navigate the spaces where forgiveness hasn't been given yet. Tim, are you ready to go all in?
Timothy Bish:I'm ready.
Eric Bomyea:Let's do this. So forgiveness is often defined as setting aside negative emotions and resentments. So I'm curious, like, what does forgiveness mean to you?
Timothy Bish:Thank you for that question. I think there is an idea. And when I was looking at this earlier today, the ability to set aside anger, resentment, frustration, that hasn't really been my experience. It has a few times with forgiveness, moments when, oh, with an understanding, I don't feel that way anymore. But more frequently, almost always, forgiveness isn't about me not being upset about something.
Timothy Bish:It's not about me changing my opinion about what I think happened or my experience of it. And instead, it has become more of a reframe and understanding of a situation from a different perspective. So when I think about a situation that I found upsetting, I don't need I'll give an example. My mom not coming to see a show when I thought she was coming to see it. I'm still sad that she didn't come to see the show, but forgiveness was about me kind of recognizing where she actually was and the humanity of her and her experience and allowing that to change how I held it, how engaged based on those things.
Timothy Bish:So for me, forgiveness isn't this magic removal of anger or resentment or frustration, but rather a recognition of a bigger, broader picture from which I can make a more conscious choice. I think with forgiveness, when people are like, oh, you have to forgive, it feels like magical thinking. Oh, well, just forgive them. Don't be upset anymore. And I believe that forgiveness can really exist with some of the feelings still there.
Timothy Bish:I'm still sad you didn't come. I still remember the the the moment or the feeling or the circumstance, But I've worked through a process, and so now I'm not going to punish you. I'm not going to I'm going to see you in a softer light and still be able to connect with you and not let it become a hindrance to what could still be parts of our relationship.
Eric Bomyea:So if I'm hearing correctly, forgiveness not forgetting. So it's a, I can be with the emotion that I'm being with. I can still hold it and hold onto it without it turning into a resentment. It's something that's like, Okay, I'm not going to forget that that thing happened. It's still part of my life, still part of my experience, still part of my story.
Eric Bomyea:It did happen, but I'm not holding it with as much intensity as maybe I did because I brought in a other way to see it that has helped to maybe soften maybe some of the the intense emotions that were coming around the event?
Timothy Bish:Well, I like this question because I I almost wanted to talk about forgetting. I don't adhere to the idea of forgive, don't forget, but that's mainly because I don't think I can choose that almost ever. You know, I think about every time I've been through a breakup. Oh, if I could forget right now, if I could walk over and, like, push the forget button, I would absolutely do it. And so with the idea of forgive, not forget, that sounds like a choice, but for me, that hasn't been my experience.
Timothy Bish:The choice is, well, I can't forget. So I'm not I'm not remembering to keep you in line because people will say that sometimes. They'll be like, I'll forgive, but I'll never forget. Right? And, like, they even made that joke on drag drag race.
Timothy Bish:At one point, I think it was Pearl who made that joke. And it was funny, but, I'm like, well, I forgetting can be great if you can do it, but can someone tell me the recipe to how to forget something? And then the truth is, well, I probably if it matters enough to me, I probably can't forget it. So I have to then engage in a process of working through forgiveness, and that's gonna, in my opinion, deal with recognizing what people were bringing and how they were and capacity and all that other stuff.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. I think the analogy of you're carrying a weight. And so when a big moment happens, when there is something that feels like a betrayal or something that feels really big where you do have a hard time forgiving somebody, it's a really heavy weight. And so I do believe that there is a little connection here with resentment. So I'm carrying around a resentment of some sorts, the big heavyweight.
Eric Bomyea:I feel slighted by this person or something happened. Not considered. Not considered. I feel I'm holding onto this resentment. And the work, if I'm understanding correctly, doesn't become to drop the weight.
Eric Bomyea:It becomes to, can I reduce the heaviness of the weight? Can I get it so that because this weight is gonna be with me for probably the rest of my life?
Timothy Bish:Well, that's the whole point is that when we think about forgiveness and well, just let it go. Just forgive. Just don't be upset anymore. That to me is all really ridiculous. I've never I've never had the experience in my life when something really mattered that I also felt like I had the option, opportunity to
Eric Bomyea:do that.
Timothy Bish:And believe me, if that had been there, I would have taken it. So, yeah, then in using your analogy, you're holding a weight. And now that's part of what I'm carrying. So I can either add on to that weight with, well, you should have done this and blah blah. Or I can start to take, well, what was really happening?
Timothy Bish:And then I think sometimes it's really heavy. It's a heavy weight because someone behaved badly. This is so forgiveness isn't about always getting closure. I think forgiveness is, okay. Well, how can I see this in a way that allows me to move on as fully as I can with the least amount of burden?
Eric Bomyea:Right. Because if the burden is preventing you from moving forward, then that thing has become too big, too important to all consuming in your life. It is becoming prohibitive. When you've built up such a resentment or you're holding onto this thing that is preventing you from getting ahead, you've to figure out some way to reduce the weight a little bit. We're not asking to fully drop it.
Eric Bomyea:I'm walking around this life dragging a bunch of weights behind me. There's no doubt about that. There have been so many things in this life that, yes, I've held resentments, I've had them, I had those big intense things that I'm like, I will never forgive you for this, for this slight. And there were times that prevented me from moving forward in my life, right? Like I'm blaming my mother for not showing up to something.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Like very similarly, my mom didn't show up to many things in my life, and I held onto that resentment for years. And the way that manifested itself into other areas of my life because I was holding onto this very heavy weight. Yeah. I'd to So it's about like, okay, that weight will always be with me.
Eric Bomyea:I'm always going to remember that my mom didn't show up. But at this point, it's not as heavy.
Timothy Bish:I would like to talk about my mom because as a young gay boy in my upbringing, I needed her to be basically Wonder Woman. And, you know, my my father was not not there and, you know, any kind of other factors. So I did a lot of ignoring, and I and I made my mom into this sort of perfect thing because that's what I needed. I remember one time being in college, I think it was my freshman year of college at NYU, and walking, I think, down Tenth Street, and I met up with some other dancers, and we were walking to the studio. And this girl was like, Tim, you're being so braggy about, like, how you know, because I was I missed Pittsburgh, so I was talking about Pittsburgh like it was incredible.
Timothy Bish:And Pittsburgh is incredible, by the way. And I was talking about my mom and about how incredible she was. She's like, oh, Pittsburgh's so perfect, and your mom's so perfect. It feels really braggy. And that was odd for me in that moment.
Timothy Bish:But then as I started getting older and recognizing my mom as the actual human being that she was rather than the Wonder Woman I needed her to be in that moment, I feel as if I was able to love more fully. Now the little gay boy in me needed a protector, and so I think me turning her into Wonder Woman in my mind was that. So I don't regret doing that. But then when I think about meeting her now and my relationship that I've had as an adult with her, I think it's important that I'm able to see her as the person she really was. And that means recognizing when she was wrong and then going through a process of forgiveness by seeing her as a human and trying to trying to look at it from that perspective.
Timothy Bish:Because the bottom line is she didn't show up in any number of ways, but she also did show up other times in other important ways. And, you know, when we talk about this stuff with our parents, we're rarely like, oh, well, you know, mom came to every performance of the High School Musical, but she did. I mean, we would do two weekends. I think it was Friday, Saturday, Sunday, both for two weekends in a row. Very exciting time for us if you're like a little musical theater nerd, you know, which I absolutely was.
Timothy Bish:And she came to every performance. That was great. Mhmm. But I'd like that doesn't sit with me in the same way like, oh, but this one time, you know, when you didn't come to, like, the final performance of band camp, which was also really true. Like, I'm like I remember, like, being upset and crying.
Timothy Bish:So it just helps to okay. I'm I'm certain I it allows me the possibility of full vision or fuller vision and experience of a person. Because I think otherwise, if I never forgive you, it's easy for you to just be all wrong. Be like, you're all bad. And the truth is, well, most of us, that isn't really true.
Eric Bomyea:Thank you for sharing about your mother and about how there was such an evolution that happened with your understanding of who she was, who she needed to be at different parts in your life. Are you open to a clarifying question? I am open. When you started your story, you said that you were in New York bragging about how perfect your mother was. And then something shifted where you started to realize that there wasn't as much perfection.
Eric Bomyea:And so did it reveal hidden resentments? At that point of bragging about perfect Pittsburgh, perfect mother, did you truly believe that it was perfect, or was there a masking of a resentment that was somewhere?
Timothy Bish:Well, I'm not going to say there was a masking of a resentment. In that moment when I was talking about Pittsburgh and talking about my mom, I think I was really scared and lonely, and those were both things, people, places where I felt safe, and I and I generally felt not safe. You know, I moved to New York City with no money, very little support, and it's yeah. I mean, some of the students at NYU were, like, kinda dicks. You know?
Timothy Bish:And and and I get it. You, like, you show up at college, and you wanna be the cool kid. You know, especially the people from Southern California. I'm just gonna say this. So So I like LA now, and I like Southern California.
Timothy Bish:But when I moved to NYU that year, all of the dancers from Southern California, I remember thinking like, what is it about that area? They're all being assholes to me because I didn't know remember one time someone yelled at me because I didn't know what DKNY stood for? And I'm like, you don't know what it means? Well, that is awful. And if I were from Southern California, I would yell at you and embarrass you.
Timothy Bish:No. Donna Karan, New York. I did not know that.
Eric Bomyea:Oh.
Timothy Bish:It was, like, the label at the time, late nineties. You know, it was a big deal. And I think I said DNKY. Mhmm. My friend was like, do you know what that stands for?
Timothy Bish:Yeah. So I I had, like, I had a lot of learning that I needed to do. Like, I didn't know I remember I got made fun of one time for not knowing they served Starbucks coffee at Barnes and Noble. I'm like, well, I never what you talking about?
Eric Bomyea:I had abortions growing up, so I wouldn't
Timothy Bish:have known. Yeah. But also, like, also the way that my life existed, like, I went to school, then I would drive into the city to take dance class. I'm like, you know? And it was just very like, oh, come on.
Timothy Bish:Like, this is what, like, everyone knows, so I felt very unsafe.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah.
Timothy Bish:And so I'm like, I made some places I, like, I amplified some places for the the purpose of safety. And when I went back to Pittsburgh, I had friends that would not talk to me like that, that would not give me a hard time or that they would in different ways and you know? And then my so, you know, I was just I was trying to create safety. Yeah. So is there a resentment there?
Timothy Bish:I mean, maybe. I don't know. But I I know that in that moment, I wasn't bragging to be better than anyone else. I think I was bragging because I'm like, well, everyone else feels really comfortable, or you appear to be really comfortable, and I feel super uncomfortable. And I'm just trying to feel less uncomfortable.
Timothy Bish:I have no money and no support and no one like, everyone else was you know? I remember I would be one of the very few people who would leave rehearsal in class and go to work. I'm like, oh, you all have parents sending you money and, like, people coming to visit you. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I did performances at the school. You know?
Timothy Bish:You know, it would be, like, Friday and Saturday and part of our curriculum. Almost I almost never had anyone there.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm.
Timothy Bish:And so at the end, you leave and, like, their kids getting even, like, the, like, the little performances, like, that didn't really matter. I'm like, oh, you're getting flowers. You're getting cards. You I'm like, you know, I remember a teacher one time was like, who came to see you? And I'm like, no.
Timothy Bish:I'm just, you know, I'm I'm just no one I'm done. So, yeah, I was looking for safety. So to that person who said that, then she wasn't trying to be totally mean, but I'm like, I wasn't trying to brag. I was just I was just trying not to feel terrible and unsafe. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea:Very, very understandable in a situation like that where it's like, you know, there is a lot of judgment and a lot of meanness being directed. So in those moments of somebody doesn't show up to a show, I can see how that creates a sense of needing safety as well. Right? Like, if that's the reality, right? Like, yeah.
Eric Bomyea:Like, I got to go find something that makes me feel really good because this feels really bad. And I can relate to that.
Timothy Bish:Right. And I think this is important because I think the the inability or unwillingness to forgive someone is, I think, almost always born of that. I feel so hurt and so vulnerable.
Eric Bomyea:Pointing at you. You were
Timothy Bish:And, like and so the one of the things so here I was, like, exaggerating my mom or Pittsburgh. Like, but if I can exaggerate how bad you are, how wrong you were when you did that, then I can somehow feel better because it's the only thing that's gonna make me feel better. Because the truth is none of the stuff like, some things don't change. Like, my mom cannot go back and see that performance of that show that I thought she was coming to, which is different, by the way, than, like, I I was less upset when I'm like, well, you never said you were coming. I wasn't looking for you.
Timothy Bish:Versus, like, you said you were coming, I was looking for you. But but now that's never gonna change. So the part of us that wants to hold on to, I need you to be really wrong or really bad, chances are it's like because I there's a safety in that. I feel a little bit safe at least knowing that I was the good guy and you're the bad guy.
Eric Bomyea:And is it okay to stay on that example? Sure. Right? Like, so in that case, did I hear correctly that, like, your mother signed up to say, like, I'm going to be there, and she didn't, does that then make her the the bad guy? Like, you didn't uphold your commitment, so now I have a big feeling about that.
Timothy Bish:I don't think there was a blame. I think there was a, why didn't you show up? My feelings are hurt. So in the in the immediate, I had I had an emotion an emotional reaction to what happened or didn't happen. And then it was years later that I
Eric Bomyea:had to work
Timothy Bish:through and start to forgive that moment. I carried that moment with me for a long time.
Eric Bomyea:So it wasn't about villainizing, it was just like, I have a really big hurt feeling that is uncaring around. It's not that, like, I think you're a bad person, it's that I feel bad. And like, the forgiveness was like, can I forgive her? Forgive myself? Like, what was the forgiveness worth then?
Timothy Bish:Well, I mean so I think I think we don't wanna get stuck on a particular example because I do think there is value in forgiving someone from your perspective who was a bad actor. Right? And that isn't I think my mom was being a little bit complacent and nonresponsive in in some ways that I think matter. But, the forgiveness work is about, okay. Well, I had hurt.
Timothy Bish:I had sadness, and I felt like I wasn't a priority, and that that had a lingering impact on me, and how long do I wanna carry that? It's not about I needed to label her behavior. I think I did label it initially as like, well, you don't you clearly don't care about me because you didn't show up. But, like, that isn't that isn't the I didn't I need that. I needed to recognize that I was carrying something that I don't want to
Eric Bomyea:be carrying anymore. What gets in the way sometimes of that, of being able to start dropping that weight to move forward? What does one need to do from feeling like I'm holding onto this thing? I have a big hurt. I have a big feeling.
Eric Bomyea:It's connected to somebody. Mhmm. And I'm trying to let it go. I'm trying to reduce the weight of it, and I just can't. So what what
Timothy Bish:I think it's beliefs. I think it's beliefs. I think it's in that moment, I believed so, okay, at the end of every band camp, there was a final, like, a final show where the parents would come. They would all or the guardians would come. They would watch the show, and then they would drive everyone home, and, like, band camp was over.
Timothy Bish:And now we had this thing that we would continue to practice and rehearse, but you know? And so for two years when I was in middle school, I drove up every summer with my mom to see my sister. And then for the two years that my sister and I were both in the band together, my mom would also come. So the first year that it was just me, my mom opted not to come. And so I remember thinking, well, you don't I'm not important enough for you to come see just me, but Jen was important enough because you came to see just her, and I know because you dragged me with you.
Timothy Bish:And so that was I that was a belief connected to a feeling that I had. And I think it was valid because I saw you show up for someone else, and you're not showing up for me. And then I had this whole feeling about it. I remember I started crying a little bit. I tried to hide it because I was in high school at the time and you know?
Timothy Bish:But, like, oh, I just I I can't believe you're not here. Right? But then so then I look back. So, obviously, space really matters and get some space, and I had the luxury of many years. And and then you recognize, okay.
Timothy Bish:Well, what was really happening was my sister was the problem child with all the challenges, and I had this image of being, like, the good boy. I think everyone kind of agreed I needed less coddling or, you know, whatever. And, you know, and I then I think my mom has a few few qualities. Some of those are a little bit of desire to relax. I might call that laziness.
Timothy Bish:And I love you, mom. And she's not listening to this anyway, it doesn't matter. And and so that that confluence of factors was, like, came together in that moment. It's like, oh, I actually do think you care about me now with some perspective, but I also understand why I felt like you didn't then. And still, if if she called me right now, I'd say, I really I really wish you would come.
Timothy Bish:I felt bad that you didn't come. But I'm not I'm not there's not a charge there for me anymore with her about it because, oh, well, your marriage was in the place it was in. Your life was in the place it was in. You were, you know, newly focused on your eldest child daughter going to school. Like, lots of concerns that that weren't front of mind for me.
Timothy Bish:What was front of mind for me was my experience, which is I just finished band camp, and you should be here. Yeah. My mom I realize now, like, my mom is probably freaked out about my sister going to school because I think she inherently knew, like, my sister was not the kind of person who's, like, good at going far away from home. And also, I love you, Jen. Like, I think she would absolutely agree with that statement.
Timothy Bish:And fun fact, like, the entirety of time since I left high school, they have always been very near each other and, like, lived together. So much, in fact, that my sister moved to Myrtle Beach. My mom my stepdad followed. So I think that's a totally accurate thing. And you're like, oh, so you were probably terrified about that, and you never told me.
Timothy Bish:So all I know is that you didn't come to the show. Mhmm. And that had a feeling.
Eric Bomyea:Of course. And I really love how you're able to bring in It's almost a matter of fact, like this is just what happened, right? Like it's acknowledging that, yes, there was a big emotion. There was a big feeling, but this is what happened. And the ability to be able to say the emotion was there, it's not as big anymore.
Timothy Bish:Of the practice of forgiveness. Right? Like, because I had to start to wrap my head around, I still believe my mom should have come. I I believe that. But is that helping me in my current relationship with her, which is the only time I have left?
Timothy Bish:Right? So how we interact now is what I've got. So what I wanna what am I gonna do with what I've got? I'm gonna am I gonna, like, either outright or subversively, punish her for this thing. And then, of course, you know, we're talking about this one example about, like, band camp.
Timothy Bish:You guys are like, this matter to me, but but it's also well, all these other times. Right? And and it's like, well, if what I wanna do is maximize my time, my experience, then maybe it is important, it behooves me to not be carrying stuff that isn't of service. And the recognition and the space that you've been able to create to recognize that, yeah, I still have this belief.
Eric Bomyea:I still have this opinion that she should have done something differently. But I can recognize that that piece of my history still exists, that belief still exists, and I can choose at that point to say, I'm not going to allow that to interfere with the time that I have with her. I'm going to engage with her in a way that I can set that aside. I'm working towards forgiveness to be able to say, This weight is much less heavy. I can put it aside.
Eric Bomyea:It's not in my face carrying it around. Yeah.
Timothy Bish:I mean, this also goes for self forgiveness. So, you know, another story I may have told on this podcast, I can't remember, but I there was this guy in middle school, high school who lived across the street from me who would very frequently make fun of me for being gay. And there were there were coming phases when it would, like, be more intense or less intense. I I was never really afraid of him that he was gonna, like, beat me up or anything, but it would be, like, pretty frequent harassment. And one time, I I clapped back in front of his mom actually and because he was fat, and I called him fat.
Timothy Bish:And I I I still feel bad about that. There's still moments where I'm like, and so my practice in that moment was, okay, Tim. Was that the most compassionate or skillful thing that you could have said in that moment? No. But was anyone else modeling how I should have done it?
Timothy Bish:You know, when I'm when I realize now, I'm like, I'm talking about when I'm maybe in tenth grade. Mhmm. How old are we? We're 15, 14 years old, And, you know, everyone is, you know, magically ignoring the fact that I'm clearly a homosexual and, you know, all all this stuff and, like, all you know, teachers and parents allowing people to, like, make fun because they're trying to toughen you up and not be a sissy and you know, whatever. And so I I clap back.
Timothy Bish:And so then when I when I because it still happens, but rarely, where I'm like, oh, yuck. That was, like, kinda gross. It's like, yeah. But I have to forgive that Tim for for being a little unskillful because he was doing the best he could. I also have to acknowledge and reward that Tim for finally setting a boundary.
Timothy Bish:You know? Was it the most skillful boundary? Absolutely not. But, oh, am I gonna am I gonna just be a punching bag for you? No.
Timothy Bish:So the the process of forgiveness is, I think, a recognition of what actually happened, and and then how does someone take that to to frame how they feel about it now, and then make choices from that place. And there's a freedom. Mhmm. So when I think about that, I'm like, you were just doing the best you could in a world that was allowing you to be attacked verbally mostly, like, attacked verbally on the regular, and so you had one skillful, like, lash out. One unskillful lash out is what I meant to say.
Timothy Bish:One unskillful lash out. Yeah. It'd be better if you didn't have that, but
Eric Bomyea:I love that that being able to see either you or somebody else who's doing the best that they can do at that time and allowing it to reframe the way in which we view that event. And so it really is it's a very objective look at something because what I feel a lot of the times is things that I'm holding a resentment or a really big charge with, it's that I'm only looking at it from my very small perspective. It's like, this is exactly how I saw it. This is exactly how I saw you behaving or me behaving in this scenario. And it's the pulling back, it's the zooming out, it's the ability to pause and recognize that this is not just one perspective of the event, but there are several perspectives of the event that can make it look a little smaller.
Eric Bomyea:You're just looking at something straight on, like, yeah, it can look massive. But then you, like, look at it from another angle, like, oh, that's not as big as I thought. Okay.
Timothy Bish:So in my yoga teacher training, one of my teachers but they they both agreed to this idea. They they would say everyone's always doing the very best they can with what they've got at any given time. And then, you know, they were it's Jeeva Mukti, and they were super vegan. You know? Ahimsa non harming.
Timothy Bish:And so I remember at one point, we're watching all these movies about the meat and dairy industry and how, like, destructive it is and how cruel it is and how bad for the environment it is and, you know, whatever. And and then we were reminded of that teaching, and, you know, there's this company called Monsanto. Mhmm. So for people who aren't familiar with Monsanto, it's a, you know, farming food industry company. I'm gonna leave it there.
Timothy Bish:That many who have strongly held beliefs would argue is not virtuous. Do you have anything to add to that? It's anyway, so the idea that our teacher said, you have to remember that everyone's doing the best they can at any given time, and she said that will include the the CEOs and the, you know, the upper echelon of this of this company at Monsanto. And I remember pausing in that moment and thinking, oh, you're advocating compassion for for a company that is at odds with things you with strongly held beliefs.
Eric Bomyea:Mhmm.
Timothy Bish:And then I was like, okay. So if that is if that's true and we're all doing the best we can at any given time, that doesn't mean we don't get punished for really bad behavior or that there aren't consequences to what we're doing. But can that provide me can even the consideration of that being possible provide me with some space to consider something from a different perspective? And then then I get to that place where I think about all the times I've done something that I wish had been better. Sometimes I wish I wish I hadn't done that.
Timothy Bish:Other times, I wish I had done that more skillfully. I wish I I wish I had spoken up sooner. I wish I had said it, you know, at all. And then you think, okay. Well, I have made so many mistakes in my life, as have you, as have everyone.
Timothy Bish:You know? Does that make me all bad? Does that disqualify me for trying another thing or attempting to be a better person? No. Of course not.
Timothy Bish:If we all stopped every time we failed, then we'd already be done. Right? We have to keep going.
Eric Bomyea:But I think this is where forgiveness comes in so handy. Right? Because without it, those resentments that we're carrying around either to ourselves or to others will prevent our perception of ourselves or from others from evolving, from being able to say, Oh, you had one unskillful moment. Right? If I'm still holding on to that, I am keeping you in that moment, and I'm not allowing you to move forward.
Eric Bomyea:Through forgiveness, I'm allowing you to move forward. I'm allowing myself to move forward that that thing happened. Right. It's not about forgetting. It's about forgiveness so that we can move forward so that I can allow you, I can allow me to be the next iteration of myself.
Timothy Bish:I'm getting excited, Simba, to make an Olympic reference. But what I'm hearing you say is that one moment can have an impact. It doesn't necessarily color our entire lives. So we we do something unskillful. Does not mean, well, you did that one thing unskillfully, so you're a bad person and you're forever a bad person.
Timothy Bish:Right?
Eric Bomyea:But that's where resentment can come in is that if somebody thinks that or if you think that about yourself, if you attach a resentment to that without forgiving it, it will. It will keep that person planted in that moment.
Timothy Bish:Totally, which is why then the practice of forgiveness would be the recognition that one one moment doesn't necessarily, like, color the entirety of the rest of your of the rest of your life. So the example that I wanna use, and I'm pretty sure this is right, but we'll have to Google check it. Tanya Harding Mhmm. Was the first woman to ever land a triple Axle in competition, and I'm pretty sure she did this at the US National Champions championships. This might have been, like, in the, like, the early to mid nineties.
Eric Bomyea:First American woman to successfully land the triple axle in a figure skating competition. She achieved this feat in 1991.
Timothy Bish:1991. Great. And she went on to win the national championship that year because of that feat, I think, over Christie Yamaguchi and Nancy Kerrigan. I think, anyway, as as Eric is googling. But the thing that's important was so that's that's an impressive achievement that she was able to do.
Timothy Bish:I never remember her landing one after that in competition, and it was not a thing that she had in her back pocket. This is not a criticism, Ms. Tanya Harding. It's just that, there's nothing taking away the her capacity that the fact that she did it, But it didn't necessarily mean that she was, like, the triple Axel Queen. And so that's sort of the the the positive version of, well, okay.
Timothy Bish:So I I insulted someone. I was overly harsh with someone. I was, you know, fill in the blank. Well, it doesn't necessarily mean that I'm an overly harsh person that cannot get out of that. It's like I can make new choices, especially if I can bring perspective and forgiveness and say, okay.
Timothy Bish:Well, we're all human. We all have a bad day.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. I have harshness in me, but I myself am not a harsh person. Detaching from it, we all have these parts to us, every single person. But when we don't allow those experiences to evolve and change, whether it's, I mean, we see this all the time in One Hit Wonders or Tanya Harding, right? It could be positive.
Eric Bomyea:It could be that thing. But if we hold on to such a tight grip of this is that person and we don't allow them to change, like, yeah.
Timothy Bish:Just about Tonya Harding, I would say this. Yeah. Totally. I would just say this. I think the first American woman to ever land the triple axel in competition, I thought she was the first woman ever, but first American, still a big deal.
Timothy Bish:And then the expectation that you're now the person who can do that, I think, actually worked against her as I think it does for so many people. So now I have an expectation of you for, like, being able to do this or for being this person, and so I'm looking for you to show up that way. And this is another thing about forgiveness. So going back to the example of, like, my mom, but any person who, like, doesn't show up. And, like, if I if I then set the expectation of, well, you're the person who doesn't show up for me, and I'm looking for that, chances are I'm gonna find evidence to support it.
Eric Bomyea:Amir says this all the time. If you are scanning the horizon for tigers, that's what you're gonna find.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. And so so why is forgiveness an important act of self care even if there isn't resolution or even if you believe the person did do something wrong? It's because how how impacted do you want your vision to be? How influenced do you want your perspective to be because of this thing? Right?
Timothy Bish:So, you know, in men's work, authentic living and, you know, clear full expression. Well, I want the clearest perspective I've got to take into the, you know, to the rest of my life. If I'm if I'm constantly looking for people to not show up for me, then I'm gonna probably find people who aren't gonna show up for me. As soon as I become aware of that, then I can start to make some change. And so, you know, with when I think about my mom to be like, if you were if you're just this woman who didn't show up for me for that show, it will influence every interaction we have.
Timothy Bish:So now that I've done some work around that, when I talk to my mom, I'm not holding that as a thing that that is influencing what I'm saying to her, how I'm showing up with her. I clearly haven't forgotten about it because we've spent an entire episode talking about it, but but it's it's not stopping me from trying to be with my mom to the extent that I can be with her for the time that I have left with her.
Eric Bomyea:And it gives space. It gives space to recognize that it's still there. I mean, this happens with, mom, I love you too, but this happens quite frequently with my mom, where like she says something and it triggers the fuck out of me. And it just like, it takes me a moment because all those old resentments will come back real fast. And then the work becomes like, okay, can I bring in the perspective?
Eric Bomyea:Can I drop the weight a little bit? I take it down so that I can be here in this moment and not have to villainize her and not have to be right and not have to do all these things and just forgive a little bit. Okay. Like, moving on. That happened twenty years ago.
Eric Bomyea:That happened three seconds ago. Whatever it might be. Right? Trying to move forward.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. And can someone do something that you don't like or that you disagree with without making them bad? And I think that's a that's a big thing right now because we haven't really been taught how to do that. And so it can be easy to get latched onto what I believe is right or what we should have done or, you know, and this translates politically. So I have some people in my life that hold very different ideas about what we should be doing politically as a country.
Timothy Bish:Am I gonna let the fact that we clearly disagree about something stop me from having a relationship with them on all these other levels. So am I gonna go to a Trump rally with you? No. Mhmm. I'm not.
Timothy Bish:But am I gonna let the fact that you voted for him stop me from having dinner with you on, like, the rare visit? Maybe not. I mean, then there's a lot of factors. So, like, for people who are listening who have made that decision, that's fine too, but I also think chances are there's more there. Right?
Timothy Bish:I wouldn't give up a relationship with my mother over a Trump vote. To be clear, my mom did not vote at all, which I guess is a slightly easier pill to swallow than if she had voted for him. But but but when I think about, well, right now, I have control over my life and the relationship with my mom. Now having said this, there are some people I know who have very legitimately cut ties because of things like that, so there's no judgment here. But it's all it's all a choice.
Timothy Bish:And so how conscious are we about that choice? If I can forgive, if I can bring perspective, then I'm more likely to make a choice.
Eric Bomyea:I think nuance here is authenticity. Like, yes, I can forgive for certain things as best as I can, but is that going to prevent me? Like, have I truly forgiven enough so that I can fully bring myself into the conversation? Can I have forgiven my mother enough that I can actually be there with her fully and without the need to hide anything? So if I'm out to dinner with somebody that voted differently than I did, we have a real big feeling about that, and I've done some forgiveness work.
Eric Bomyea:Okay. Cool. But am I stopping myself from being there in some capacity? Because part two of this. Yeah.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because that to me feels like, I'm I'm just gonna say it because I don't know the other words. So it's not for it's not forgiveness and it's not forgetting, but it almost feels like ignorance or ignoring.
Eric Bomyea:I'm gonna ignore this so that we can be pleasant together. That to me doesn't feel like forgiveness.
Timothy Bish:Yeah. No. I don't think I don't think ignoring is. I think ignoring if we go back to the example of my mom, ignoring is what I did for a long time because it's what I needed. It's very different than clear recognition of what I believe is true and dealing with and working with that.
Eric Bomyea:And then being able to be in that moment with her as fully as you can. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. And it sounds like there's a lot that is revealed when forgiveness enters the picture, both energetically, emotionally, and also physically. Just being able to let some things go, like I can relate that and just physically the feeling of the burden, the weight of something, and then through forgiveness practices, feeling a little bit lighter. And so what else do you think changes when forgiveness enters in?
Timothy Bish:I think that we get to start to let go of the emotional charge connected to whatever the thing was. So I know that there have been moments in my life that I will probably always remember with some emotional charge, but how much control can that charge exert over me? I believe that starts to become softer and more manageable through that process. I was really hurt. I was really upset.
Timothy Bish:But with the process of forgiveness, I think we can start
Eric Bomyea:to soften that. Remind me of one practise we did once that was a visualization around resentment clearing, and it was holding this person who we had a big charge against and how there was this connection, there were these tethers, all of these tethers that this person had to me that prevented me from moving forward. And so the practice in that visualization became like putting up a shield almost so that those tethers that were coming in didn't have such a strong attachment. But what I noticed was that even though that shield goes up, they still wanna come in, and sometimes they'll make their way through. And then it does become the practice of being like, okay, releasing it, detaching it because they don't go away.
Eric Bomyea:Yeah. Those big charges will always be there in some capacity.
Timothy Bish:And I I think sometimes we don't even realize that we also want them to
Eric Bomyea:stay. Mhmm.
Timothy Bish:So I if I'm connected to you because you've done something wrong to me and I have a feeling about that, I'm still connected to you. And, you know, I think a a bolder but scarier choice is to say, well, am I willing to be completely disconnected? Am I willing to lose you? I think a lot of that is why is it hard to forgive people? Well, because that would forgiveness would be potentially the willingness to let go of the resentment that's part of our identity and, you know, our MO in this situation.
Timothy Bish:Oh, I need like, again, going back to, like, I need to be the good guy and you're the bad guy, but then I'm still connected to you because, you know, when we think about, like, movies and comic books, the two the the hero and the villain don't need to be in the same scene for us to know that they are in relationship with each other. They are.
Eric Bomyea:The identity becomes intertwined. I just had this visual of, like, thinking, like, oh, that final moment of, like, being able to, like, forgive is kinda like just, like, blowing the dust if it's this hazy form of a person in front of me. It really is. It's like this person or this thing has been with me my entire life or for however long I'm holding onto this resentment or big charge, been holding onto it. So it's become a part of my identity.
Eric Bomyea:And so it really does become a very scary thing to be like, Oh, I may have to let this go. It's like the dust, right? Like, Oh, but then the air is cleared.
Timothy Bish:Yeah, and then what's left?
Eric Bomyea:But then am I alone? That's scary. Totally, exactly. Exactly right. Well, thank you.
Eric Bomyea:I want to just acknowledge you and appreciate you for the vulnerable shares today and for working through just a handful of examples. I think we went really deep into those experiences and I think they were really helpful to understand this complex topic. So I just want to acknowledge you and thank you for for doing that with us and and letting us all in. So appreciate you. I appreciate you.
Eric Bomyea:And with that, I'm feeling very complete. Is there anything you'd like to
Timothy Bish:complete too.
Eric Bomyea:Alright. Thank you. Yeah. Will you take us out?
Timothy Bish:I will. Let's take a deep inhale and a gentle exhale. And then with deep appreciation and gratitude for any insights, awarenesses, or understandings that were gained here in the shared sacred space of brotherhood that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we called in. And as we leave the circle, I wish everyone safety, community, brotherhood, equality, and love. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken.