The Dominant Way to Avoid Burnout: Ms. Elle X on Rest and Radical Self-Advocacy

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work and body man practices and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to rate, leave a review, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, please send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. And now onto the show.

What happens when the ones holding it all together start to come undone? Today, we're joined by Ms. Alex, trauma informed BDSM educator, licensed life coach, and former dominatrix whose work in conscious kink and empowered relationships has transformed lives across the globe. Together, we explore the hidden cost of leadership, why so many men and leaders struggle to rest, what happens when they don't, and how surrender can be the most radical act of self care. We'll talk about true power, nervous system capacity, and how rest isn't a weakness, but a necessary reset for anyone who leads, holds space, or carries the weight of others.

Tim, miss Elle, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready.

Let's go.

Let's go indeed. Miss Elle, thank you so much for being here with us today. Welcome to the circle.

Thank you so much. It is an honor to be in this space. I am honored that you trust me with your community, so thank you all.

So speaking of community, I've been a part of your community now for about two years. Yes. And one of the reoccurring themes that I've heard you talk on and something that you've worked with me on personally is this notion of rest and how difficult it can be for people to just take a fucking break. And so what do you think makes rest so difficult for people who are in positions of power or responsibility, whether they are a dominant, a leader, or a parent? And what happens when they don't?

I think the what happens when you don't question is much easier to answer than the why question because I think there are a lot of factors that go into why someone is struggling to rest. If it's shame around rest, anxiety around rest, if it is a trauma response, if it is perfectionism, there are all of these different pathways that lead into this notion that we translate that says we have to keep going. We, we haven't worked hard enough to earn rest. And when rest gets viewed through the lens of performance that I have to reach a certain threshold in order to rest, that is a setup for burnout just by how you're defining it. So I think a lot of factors, the quick answer, in my experience, a lot of trauma.

Trauma, unhealed wounds, rejection sensitivity is a huge one. Insecurity is a huge one. I think insecurity is a driving factor to constantly work. Security can rest. Insecurity always has something to prove.

So if you're approaching your purview on life, relationships, sex, business, domination, leadership through a lens of a deficit, through I am not enough and I'm showing up in this lens of I'm not enough and I'm insecure, you won't allow yourself to stop because you will always have something to prove.

You know, there's a lot of talk in our culture that I think makes it really hard for people to take a break because I I rarely hear people regretting working hard or doing more. But if you do take a break, it's so easy to say, well, then, like, the reason you didn't achieve that thing was because you weren't you should have been working when you did that thing that wasn't working, or maybe they they hurled in the label lazy at you. Oh, you were being lazy. Doesn't feel like there's, in my experience at least, ever been a conversation about the value of conscious rest and how it might actually fuel and optimize effort later. Mhmm.

But there like, we just didn't talk about it like that. It was all about, like, you know, if you work hard enough, you can achieve it. And so if you don't achieve it, you didn't work hard enough. That's a really tricky thing because sometimes you work really hard and still don't achieve a thing, and it has nothing to do with how hard you worked. And, you know, when I was performing on Broadway, there would be times Everyone

everyone take a sip of your beverage. The classic circle podcast game here. Anytime Tim mentions that he was a professional dancer, we take a sip.

So but

this but this is relevant.

I'm glad I have tea,

not liquor. This is this is relevant because when you would get to the final, like, the final round of a callback, then the assumption was, okay. Well, everyone in this room now probably has the talent. They've all worked hard enough to achieve the thing. And then the criteria for why you get hired is so like, I've booked jobs because I look the way I look, and I have not booked jobs because I've looked the way I look because they're casting shows.

Right? And so it's really tricky then to be like, well, at some point, it wasn't about my effort or not. It was about something else. But then if you walk away and feel, well, the reason I didn't get it was because I didn't work hard enough, then it creates, I think, something really unhealthy. And I feel like that's what I'm hearing you talk about too.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you know, what you said about we just don't we don't hear the conversation around rest. We don't hear rest being advocated for, and I agree with you. But what I find very interesting is we hear consent being advocated for, especially in the kink community, I'm sure in your space as well.

And so consent is this, like it is law. It is BDSM law. But really, rest and consent are two sides at the same coin. Because rest is our advocating for our no in the same way consent is advocating for our yes.

Wow. Wait. Wait. Yeah. Yeah.

Say like

A miss l truth bomb. No. That Five minutes in. Let's go.

Five minutes in.

Totalize. Our work here is done.

I mean, I think that's so important. So if I heard you rest is advocating our no the way that consent is advocating for our yes, which means that in order to have a fully realized conversation, they both have to be present. It's very yin and yang. It's very like even if even if you in the experience are always consenting because that's what feels right, the the rest part of it, the no to the yes, is still there. This I could get into Chinese medicine, but this feels really, like, connected.

Like like, even if even if you don't say it, it's still present. It is still in the experience. It's still part of the conversation.

Yes. Yes. Because you don't you cannot authentic you can't authentically say yes if you're unwilling to say no.

And it's no to so many things. No to the experience of the scene of what's happening, but also no to like, no, I'm not going to go to dinner. No, I'm not gonna go out to that show. No. I'm not gonna go meet friends.

No. I'm not gonna take on that project.

Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Because you're saying yes to something more valuable. So to me, rest and boundaries and priority and consent are all the same concept.

They cannot be separated in my in my mind at least. Go ahead.

So you are blowing my mind right now. This is I think it's I think it's so important because I I what I've also observed is a lot of people, they say no with a lot of edge. We talk about edges and boundaries in men's work all the time. Like, I say it with a lot of edge. And now what I think I'm hearing is, well, you're probably saying it with edge because you weren't allowing yourself to say it until you are so pushed.

You're you're so pushed that you're like, now my no has to be like this brick wall of you know? Yes. As opposed to like, well, I can actually say no in a very heartfelt centered way if it's always there. So sometimes I don't wanna go to dinner. It's not because I don't like you or you're not great at dinner or the restaurant you chose isn't gonna be delicious.

I might say no for other reasons, and I won't need that edge if I'm in conversation with both my yes and my no. Is that what am I hearing you correctly?

Yes. And it circles back, no pun intended, to the point on insecurity cannot rest. If you are secure in your identity, you're secure in let's bring in a relational aspect because that's my realm. If we are secure in that relationship, we're secure in our partner's love. They've asked us to go out to dinner, but we're burnt out.

We need rest. We need self care. And let's say we are so secure in our partner's love that we go, I don't have to say yes out of obligation. I don't have to abandon myself. I don't have to betray myself to try to prevent a negative outcome.

So, therefore, my yes is actually an act of fear at that point, not an actual act of self advocacy. So if I am approaching my relationship that I'm secure, I'm secure with my partner, we're secure in this relationship, I'm still going to be loved if I don't accept this invitation. We can rest.

This was the example that you and I worked through in one of our first coaching sessions was this exact thing. It was the difference between something being a commitment that I can up hold with devotional energy. Yes. Tilting into an obligation and how that was burning me out.

Yes. Yes. Right.

So like I was looking at too many things that I had said yes to, and I was afraid to say no. And I was getting to that place of fully burnt out and then like fully like in a place of I can't even function. I was in full burnout. And it's so helpful to to to look at it that way of like, how can I look at my commitments and which ones are starting to feel like that icky red flag obligation and which ones can I bring a sense of devotion to? So in the sense of a partner, right?

If I'm feeling secure with my partner, I can confidently say, no, I don't want to do that thing right now without the fear of like, oh, you're going to abandon me.

Yes. Yes. Exactly. And so really that security and knowing that you're loved is really the the foundation of rest for me in how I view everything. Because if you if you are saying yes because you're afraid to say no, that's not consent.

Mhmm. That's an act of self betrayal. And so if you look at it through that lens that my rest is an act of setting boundaries, which is an act of self advocacy, which is the most dominant thing I could do. Me telling that submissive, no. No.

No. I know that you still wanna play, baby, but I'm done. I am not a kink dispenser. You don't get to objectify me. My rest becomes my identity in terms of I am a person, not an object.

I'm a person, not a kink dispenser. And and so it's a very it's a very powerful act of self empowerment and self advocacy to step in there and go, no. I know that you want more. I know that you want more play. I know that you want more domination, but you have to wait.

That's right. And Mhmm. That right there is such a paradigm shift of the of at least when I was coming into the space and learning about different roles. I was like, oh, the dominant always has to be on. It always has to be holding space and doing the things.

And if I signed up for a spanking scene, I have to uphold my obligation.

There it is. And

then all of a sudden I'm in something and I'm feeling icky and I'm not fully online and I'm just like yelling bad. And I didn't allow myself to say, no, I'm a tired dom. And so I cannot and won't do this anymore. Doesn't matter what I said. Doesn't matter if I held it up as a commitment at one point.

I have the right and the responsibility as a leader to say no.

Yes.

Yes. So I'm I'm sort of interested. I wanna dive a little deeper into the BDSM, but my my experience of it so far has been that there is a robust communication and dialogue that is occurring in these spaces. That's what I've witnessed and and and heard. And so I'm I'm curious for for people who aren't in that space and they're in relationships where they don't feel like, this idea of, like, well, if you feel secure in your love, it's like, okay.

Well, what if you don't? Mhmm. And so which I know is like the the beginning of we could do eight episodes to, like, break that apart. What what what might you say to someone, I'm in a relationship. I don't feel totally secure in my love.

I'm now because I'm hearing this recognizing that I am not advocating for myself or I'm abandoning myself in certain ways. Like, where does someone start to create the change they wanna create?

Yeah. I would say self awareness is going to be number one. Like, Eric, you were mentioning a few minutes ago where you kept saying that icky feeling, that icky feeling. When we can put language to that icky feeling, so much power gets put into our hands. And so I believe on the outline forgive me for looking ahead, but I believe on the outline, one of the points was talking about, really, how do you start stepping into this?

And I believe, Tim, that's also kind of what you're asking. And for me, personally, I can't speak to every dominant, every leader, but for me personally, it it was a matter of me working with my, my therapist and and really understanding the physical sensation. So you really wanna link to embodiment work, the physical sensations of icky. When I feel icky, let's put a word to that and let's put a physical sensation to that. Because I know you're in fitness, I also started out as a personal trainer, and that's how I got linked into professional domination, but that's a whole different episode.

But the mind body connection is incredibly powerful, as you know. And so when we're tapping into this level of self awareness, it's allowing yourself I think giving yourself the permission to acknowledge that you feel icky and not gaslighting yourself out of that. Like, this is making me feel uncomfortable. This is making me feel obligated and burnt out and more shut down. It's fine.

I committed. I'm gonna do it anyway or whatever, and I'm just gonna go along with it. And we we we ignore the red flags that our nervous system is giving us, And we just plow through it, and I think the heart can be really beautiful. I say all the time to my community, compassion without boundaries is codependency. K?

Because the same thing here. If you are if you're so compassionate about that person, that relationship, that situation that you will not set boundaries, not advocate for your rest, not say no, you're not actually being full of love and full compassion. You're actually being codependent. And so when you realize it's actually an act of self betrayal, when I don't advocate, when I don't rest, and when I don't actually tell that person, no. I don't have the capacity or this is making me feel icky, and we go into that self gaslighting to force ourself to show up in a situation we're not actually safe or comfortable in, that doesn't do anyone any good.

And this feels like you're talking about when when we get into that place, this is the time when we will push ourselves beyond and then get back to that that hard boundary to be like, oh, I've pushed myself. It's been in the name of these elevated things like altruism or compassion or connection or whatever. And then at some point, now I'm so weary or drained that then I get sort of like edgy. I love that you're talking about this because this practice that you just described in your own words is foundational in men's work.

Mhmm.

The the the looking into our physical body for the wisdom that it has. And, you know, I've I've heard in many books that the body doesn't lie. So if I'm having a icky feeling

Mhmm.

At the very minimum, I know that I need to pay attention to that in the same way that when I'm having that light time seems to stand still kind of feeling, well, that's also information. It's just the the trickier feelings are the ones we might wanna pay attention to because that's probably when we're on the precipice of self abandonment or, you know, not Yes. Holding our own boundaries or commitments.

Yes. Yes. And I love the word that you used, like, having that sharp edge to your boundary because I think a lot of people view setting boundaries that way. Like, I don't wanna be a bitch. Like, I don't I don't wanna come across in some type of way.

Number one, don't be afraid to come across in some type of way. You cannot control anyone else's perception of you. That is their responsibility. But, yeah, it's it's this it's this shame. I think there's a lot of shame.

I think when you don't feel safe and you don't feel secure, there is this sense of people pleasing under a virtuous name. I tell my I tell my community all the time, when we give, like you said, in the name of altruism, whatever, when we give dysfunction a virtuous name, we empower the dysfunction. And so when we are calling our dysfunction, our chronic lone wolf syndrome because we haven't healed from our childhood wounds, and we can't ask for help and all of that, okay, call down a little bit. Sorry. Sorry.

When when we are calling that independence, that that hyper independence, that lone wolf, when we're calling that success and independence, when really it's we're scared and we feel insecure, we're giving a dysfunction a virtuous name, and therefore we empower the dysfunction instead of weeding out the dysfunction. And so I think if we're just if we're honest with ourselves, like, me personally, when I started doing this work, it started to feel like I had a, like, a weight, like like a, like, a plate weight from the gym in my stomach. And every time I felt pulled to act out of codependency, it literally felt like that other person had a rope attached to the weight, and I was being pulled forward. Like like, I was not propelling myself forward in my own independence that something was being pulled out of me that was actually antagonistic to my will, violating to my will. And that was the first sign of, oh, I am no longer in compassion territory.

I'm in fucking codependent territory. And so it it became doing that work because you asked. I'm trying to kind of come back. Where do you start with all of this? It's that.

It's the embodiment. It's tuning into your body and your nervous system and those sensations. But then the language, it's, well, what is this? I feel controlled right now. I feel anxious right now.

I feel whatever it is right now. Putting language to that so you can go, okay, this choice is going to lead me into anxiety. What choice will lead me into peace?

And frequently, the choice that will lead to peace is recuperation, some sort of form of rest. It is that no. Hopefully, we've gotten to a place that it's not a fuck no. It's not the hard boundary no, but it is a no, my love, not right now. How about this as an alternative because, like, I need some rest or whatever

it might be.

And just to really quick, I like, I I do believe that there are some occasions where a really hard boundary is absolutely appropriate or needed. But it sounds like based on the studies that I've had in this conversation that most boundary setting like, that that really hard boundary would be very specific situations, and most boundaries could come in in a much more compassionate, heartfelt way, a softer way. We don't we don't need that. We might need to be able to do it in the right timing, but we don't need it almost all the time.

So we reframed rest. So it's not this moment of weakness. It really is a powerful form of self advocacy. And so curious, let's take it into the BDSM realm.

I was hoping we'd get there eventually.

What are some of the most surprising reasons that people come to you? And have you noticed an undercurrent of the desperate need to just rest, take a break?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. This is this is to me the crux of it. Throughout the years, I've really seen you know, in vanilla spaces, we have sex drive. We have libido.

And that is what is referred to as arousal. But in kink, there are multiple points of arousal. You can have sexual arousal. You can have dominant arousal. You can have submissive arousal.

You can have kink arousal. So you could be arousing. You could be activating any one of these lanes at any point. And I think although there are kink arousal and sex arousal that is absolutely activated, I have seen just as the, if this is appropriate term, the plumb line throughout everything is I need to rest. I need to feel seen.

That's a huge one. That's a huge part of the work that we do as dominance is literally being so present and holding so much space for someone that they feel so exposed in a way that they can't access elsewhere. So I think it's feeling seen, and it's also, I'm giving you a place where you don't have to be responsible anymore. You don't have to check out any or you can check out. You don't have to be on anymore.

And that was actually my initial understanding of BDSM. I got introduced to the lifestyle at 13 years old by an episode of CSI. Mhmm. Mhmm. With lady Heather, who was the house mistress of this dungeon.

And she as a little tiny cute little virgin girl, 13 years old, I watched her. She was the dominant of the dominatrixes. She was the one that empowered the dominatrixes. She was the one that gave them a space to be dominant. And I've I thought, we have the same thing.

And it was it was so powerful because she said this line in there that said, nighttime is when all the needy little boys come out to play. And I thought that's fascinating because the juxtaposition was the clients that were coming in were high powered men, CEOs and managers and businessmen and entrepreneurs and lawyers. And she viewed them as needy little boys who were just so tired that they needed a place to check out. And so from the time I was 13 years old, that was my initial paradigm to BDSM. It's a it's a place for people to rest.

I wanna pause for a second because this idea of being seen, I think, I think is so important. I know that it's been important with me and my therapist and, you know

Cheers to therapy.

Here. Here. Right? Hi, Dre. Just so that people are clear, and and I wanna come back to the how it happens in BDSM, but being seen can be so many things.

And for me, it's mainly like, oh, a recognition of my authentic self and an allowance for that, whatever that is, to be be present. And I feel like that's what you're discussing too. So can you just talk a little bit about how either a dom or a sub can can help someone feel seen and and why that is so healing and safe.

I think if I could sum it up in my unique way, being seen reinforces your identity. Identity is the most valuable thing that we have. So if you feel invisible, what worth do you have?

And

if you feel like, I am here, I'm showing up, I'm working so hard, but nobody sees me, you're not gonna rest. You're gonna work more. You're gonna work more to feel seen. You're gonna work more to prove yourself. You're gonna work more to show, hey.

Look what I've accomplished. Look what I've done. Look at my subscribers. Look at my community. Look at my accomplishments.

And that is what breeds this work, work, work. I can't rest. I can't rest. I can't rest. But when you're seen, you go, hey.

Stop. You've done enough. It's okay. You can let go now. You don't have to try anymore.

You are enough as you are. And in this space, you're free. There is no work or earning or striving in this space. There's freedom and rest. And when you give someone permission, just stop, honey.

Baby, just stop. You can check out all the responsibility out there. I know it's a lot. You've done enough. Come into this space.

And to me, that's how I've always viewed it is when I see you, I'm acknowledging that you exist. I'm acknowledging that you have value. And if I am dominating you, then I'm investing time into you, which means I see value in you enough where I want to invest time into you. And so I think just the act of being with a dominant is like, wow. This dominant sees me and likes me and wants my energy around them.

And for very busy entrepreneurial overworked introverted dominance

Clocked and clocked.

There is no better, there's no better compliment that I could give a submissive to go come into my space because you don't drain me. You know? Come into my come into this space because we can actually benefit from each other in this space kind of thing.

That's such a yogic concept. What I'm really hearing you talk about is a mutually beneficial relationship.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's why I say that to me, vanilla doesn't exist. DS exists in every relationship structure. You describe any relationship you have with your mom, your dad, your siblings, your friends, coworkers.

I will be able to identify who is dominant and who is submissive in that dynamic. It exists everywhere. The only thing that we do differently in VDSM is we put language to it, and then we exploit what those roles provide in relationship. That's really all we do.

I'm really curious. A short aside, do you find that people in queer relationships, same sex relationships, ebb and flow between the dom and sub poles more, or do you feel like almost everyone is constantly ebbing and flowing between these poles in the in the unfolding of their relationship.

I do think that, yes, the ebb and flow of dominant and submissive is in every every relationship, every dynamic, two men, two women, one man, one woman. I think it's just everywhere. I think that when you have two partners that are more switchy or more balanced, less polarized in their dominant end submission, that's where the ebb and flow can seem a little crazy and chaotic sometimes. But, I think that ebb and flow is always there no matter what kind of relationship structure. It's like the friend group where the one friend is always paying for everyone else and the one friend that's always forgetting their money.

Who's dominant and who's submissive?

Well, thank you for that. I think that really answers the question. In men's workspaces, they talk a lot about polarity, and the the the language is often masculine and feminine. Now in our queer space, I often prefer something more like yin and yang, sun and moon, something a little bit less gender, but they will talk about, well, who's holding this poll and who's holding this poll. And it feels like there's a little bit of crossover.

I think we could call it leadership and followership. Like who's leading and who's following? We say this in dance. And so it's like who's got the the masculine pole? Who's got the feminine pole?

Who is leading and who is following?

And that actually so I'm glad you brought up dancing again because you know I love talking about it. As what

Oh, look. I was I was already a step ahead. I felt it coming intuitively.

So it was always said, you know, in in partner dancing, especially, you know, like, ballroom or or swing dancing, oftentimes, if you were a man, you would be the the the lead, and if you were a woman, you'd be the follow. But they would say, like, oh, in order to be a really good lead, you have to also know how to follow. And so the leads would then practice being the follow in whatever technique they were doing. So West Coast Swing or Cha Cha doesn't really matter. The if you like, by learning that skill, you know and so I'm curious, is that true for BDSM?

In my opinion, yes. I do believe the best dominance have been submissive. I have been in the lifestyle, like I said, from the time I was 13 years old. I was introduced to it. I had my first daddy dom at 16.

He was 35. I was 16. No minors in kink, but that's beside the point. And so my first experiences of actually physical, real life experiences in the community were from the bottom side. And it was on the bottom side that I learned, this is what I like from a top.

This is how I like being led. This is how I get activated and triggered in a bad way. Here are the things that I would never want a top, a dominant to do. So it's like you have so much empathy that comes from just, like, being in such a vulnerable open position that when you get in a place of power, hopefully, you bring that empathy with you and and kind of reverse engineer it and go, okay, if I didn't like this on the bottom side, I'm certainly not gonna do this to someone on the top side.

And this is a beautiful parallel for for the entire conversation. The reason why we're using BDSM kind of as the the case study is it can be applied universally. So in this exact moment, that was my trajectory in my corporate career.

Talk about it.

Looking at management, looking at leaders, and saying, absolutely not. I will never do that as a leader, as a manager. And then as I worked my way up, learning from that, learning to be the worker, learning to be the follower, learning to be the submissive in the relationship with a person who was above me, who was the leader, who was my dominant, and then saying, when I'm in your shoes, I will never do that. I'm gonna do this instead.

I also think it trains a kind of listening. Oh, yeah. And that when when you are following, so I'm gonna go back to dance since that's, you know, more my purview. Like, if you're following Is

that do we Let's

do it. Hydrate. Marcella's really good at following rules, making rules, and upholding people to rules.

Okay. I love it. The the the skill of listening and with a dance form, it's almost instantaneous sort of physical communication. There's rarely someone saying step your right foot forward. These are techniques.

You know? And and then I think that training and listening translates even if you don't need it in the exact same way. So, yeah, when you're talking about, like, leadership, right, I learned. I I had to listen to these instructions over and over and over again. So now I'm gonna give the instructions I think would have been the clearest or the Yeah.

The most helpful or the most empowering or or or, you know, whatever depending on the task. You know? And I think they're I'm like, wow. That's really valuable. That that is time well spent if you walk away saying, I can communicate better, more compassionately, and be be of greater service because I heard this, and now I say it this way.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. But it requires humility. So much humility, and that's the key. Like, I've worked with submissives that were not humble, and it's gross.

It's disgusting. I yeet them. I don't wanna be around that. Right? It's gross.

But it's it's just it's equally off putting from the top side too. And so, yes, there by going through the submissive experience or bottoming, you do get a level of empathy that if you are humble, and that's the key. If you have empathy without humility, then what you have is a weapon to manipulate somebody with. Like, I've had you you tell a narcissist your deepest, darkest secrets and fears and insecurities, they're not gonna get compassionate with you. They're gonna weaponize it.

We're getting truth bombs. Mhmm. Like the yeah.

I'm sorry. Was I are we are we free of truth bombs? Do we not want truth bombs?

No. No. No. Here.

Yeah. I've just I've just got a duck and cover right now. I

got a

shelter in place.

Oh, if I'm calling you out, I'm so sorry.

No. It is it it it's really powerful, like, what you just said. And empathy requires what again? What was the word you used?

Humility. Humility. Humility. Yeah. Yeah.

If you have all of these experiences on the bottom side and you know the inner workings of the submissive experience, and you know how to really get into the mind, and you know how to wield certain emotional, physical, sexual reactions, but you don't have the humility to do it with integrity?

Weapon.

It's a weapon. And that's why, like, there's risk in erotic intelligence. There's risk in the skills that I teach, but there's risk in everything. There's risk in everything. And and the benefit for people must outweigh the risk.

And I truly believe that. I truly believe if you know how to communicate well in your relationship, you know how to be present, be attentive, hold space, set the appropriate boundaries, You set yourself and your partner up for this ebb and flow, this ongoing erotic power exchange that doesn't have to die on a bad day. You can leverage your opportunities and your circumstances around you for greater connection.

I'm curious because the the bad day idea, this because I think when we when we hear these things, these skills, I mean, like, oh, they have to be done right. But it feels to me based on what I'm hearing that there's an allowance for it not to always be perfect and that if the trust and the communication and the boundaries and the expectations of all these things are present in in integrity, then something can go a little awry and be course corrected. Am I hearing you correctly?

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think if you're in if you're in relationship with someone that you don't feel like you are allowed to be human enough to make a little mistake and course correct, you need to get out of that relationship.

Another truth bomb. Mhmm.

I mean Yeah. Y'all wanted to know, like, what what do people do if they're listening to this and they're in this relationship, they don't feel safe with someone. I would say take inventory. How long have you been with this person? If you've been with this person over a year, over two years, you don't feel safe with this person, that is not the relationship for you.

What are you doing? Wasting your time.

And walk walk the people through the ladder. If you don't feel safe, then there is no chance to build

Come on. You know it.

If if you do not feel safe, there is no way you are going to trust that person.

If you

do not trust that person, there is no way that you are going to be vulnerable with that person. And if you are not vulnerable with that person, how are you going to have an intimate relation and an intimate connection with them? Intimacy. Into me, you see. You cannot see into me if I don't feel safe.

You cannot see into me if I don't trust you. You cannot see into me if I am not vulnerable with you.

Because vulnerability is the act of allowing parts of us to be seen. Right?

Yeah.

Back to feeling seen.

Yeah. So Yes. So, like so if I'm if I'm not allowing you to see parts of me because I feel like they are at risk or that you can't hold them with compassion, then I'm hiding, and then therefore whatever interaction I'm having isn't fully me. Is that what I'm hearing? Yeah.

I feel like if you don't feel like if you don't feel safe enough to be human with your partner, be real with your partner, then I think it would be we've either got a narcissistic situation going on or some of some rejection sensitivity is running the show. And either way, that's not a good option. I don't need to know much else after that either way.

Rejection sensitivity, I I think you've mentioned it once before. That feels like can you just define it? Because I feel like that's a thing most of us have.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Can just Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Can you just talk a Absolutely. Little bit about

Yeah. I think, honestly, I don't understand how these little baby things are growing up with this social media and all of this, like, it's causing chronic rejection sensitivity in this new generation where it's become part of their personalities. This is why we have so many I truly believe these these mental health issues and stuff. It's like, you're you are living way too much here online and getting constant criticism from people who should have no place to speak in your life. And so I think rejection sensitivity comes from old wounds, comes from being bullied in school, being rejected by our first love.

You know? It could be anything, but I think I think deep rejection sensitivity is very linked to attachment theory, which is usually grounded around age seven. And so I think a lot of it stems from just our parents aren't perfect. Our our childhoods aren't perfect. Other children are mean and ridiculous and all these other things that we go through in life.

Right? And we grow up with that wounded inner child inside of us that is still feeling like that scared, rejected. Nobody likes me. Nobody wants me. Six, seven year old little boy, little girl.

But we're this big buff man. And we're this big, strong entrepreneur, or we're this strong badass dominatrix, and we cannot let anyone see that our inner child is really online. I think that really is rejection sensitivity. When those wounds in our inner child shows up and says, I don't feel safe, and I don't feel valuable, and I don't feel worthy to be here. I think that's really a big part of rejection sensitivity.

So if our inner child is online and we're we are in our big buff adult body, but our inner child is online, then we're going to engage in that relationship, not from this place that we're manifesting on the outside, but really what's authentic on the inside, that unhealed wound.

And so this is sort of bringing it back then. The first step needs to be a conversation with your internal sensational experience to help me recognize, oh, I'm operating from rejection sensitivity. Before before I'm able to make a change, because obviously we all probably have prayed for the light switch. Mhmm. Like, they're like, I'm going through a breakup, and I just wanna go over there and flip the switch, and I don't want it to hurt anymore.

Right? But but since that light switch doesn't exist, we first have to say, okay. Well, what's happening in me? Oh, is this rejection sensitivity? That would be step one.

Right? It is it isn't a magic wand. It's how we recognize, well, this is what I'm doing, and this is how that's making me feel.

Yeah. Yeah. It really is an organic process, and I think it it ties back into the sharp edge that you were talking about earlier. That if we can stay aware enough when little triggers come up, when we feel a little bit pushed, when we feel a little bit controlled, when we feel a little bit violated, we actually say something right there in the moment, take rest, take space, set a boundary, whatever we need to do so that it doesn't get to the extreme where we have to have that very, very strong edge. So it is a matter of this is how I'm feeling.

This is what happened. How will I choose to go forward in a way that serves me, not my inner child? Because at that point, you wanna talk about DS, that inner child is the submissive, and you and your adult self is the dominant. And you now have to reparent that inner child. You now have to dominate that inner child.

And so this work is not about following your feelings. I don't believe that at all. Feelings make excellent slaves, terrible masters. Do not follow your feelings. K?

But I think feeling awareness where you go, okay. Here are my feelings, and my feelings can inform my decisions. My feelings do not control my decisions. My feelings are allowed to inform my decisions. And right now, I'm feeling violated.

I'm feeling icky. I'm feeling whatever it is. So even if I don't know what's going on, I'm gonna take space and maybe circle back to it. Just giving yourself that permission, I think, is huge.

Because the feeling component of it is gonna be one of the tools that we use to recognize if a dynamic is working for us or not. And it isn't and then what I feel like I'm hearing you say is the adult version of us or the the dominant aspect of us is then gonna make some conscious choices hopefully with, like, rest and space in service to what our purpose is, what our mission is, like, what what this adult person moving to the world wants. Right? So the inner child, it seems to me, wants to just feel better. I want I want whatever.

Usually.

Yeah. I just wanna feel better. But but what I'm hearing is but so we use that emotion, that feeling as an indication something about this isn't right. Now the adult me, the dom me has to step online and do some do some introspection and some awareness work to figure out what I think that might be and then but then make conscious choices that are not based on the emotions. Meaning, like, I'm not going to lash out at you because that will feel good for a second, but instead, what's in service to my purpose or the person I'm yearning to be.

Right. And what

will serve the space or the scene that's happening right now, stepping into that leadership position and making the choices, setting the stage, creating the space in which this can happen. And that can be internal space, external space, a dungeon, a room, or just our internal landscape. And I think this is the powerful, like, parallel that we get to draw with with BDSM, with DS specifically, is within so many aspects of our life, our internal relationship, our external relationships, and how then do we step into those positions of leadership so that we can allow others to rest in that space

Yes. Including

our inner child. If the inner child is always online banging at the door at the bottom of the stairs freaking out, that is a tired, needy little boy.

And that's where a lot of brats come in.

Yeah.

Episode three coming coming.

Yes. Yeah.

And part of that, like, for me, I'm a natural degrader. I'm I'm a sexual switch. So I I like things as a sexual bottom, or I like things as a as a dominant on the top side that I do not tolerate as a sexual bottom. And one of those is I am a very skilled degrader on the top side and very easy for me to go into degradation, humiliation. But on the bottom side, that is absolutely a nonnegotiable for me.

And so it's really, like, even even understanding, like, your switch points and advocating for yourself on the top side in a different way than you do on the bottom side. It gets so layered, all of these angles. Go ahead.

Switch points. So I I'm actually gonna ask. It would be interesting for us to do for the description of this episode a little glossary of some of these terms for anyone listening just so that we're clear. But the switch point feels like a really powerful thing that I've experienced, I think, in other aspects of my life. When I'm this ability and this desire to when I'm in these situations, I can show up like this.

And then when I'm in these situations, I tend or am more naturally prone to show up like this, and that's okay. And as opposed to this idea of and I think men, you know, in men's work spaces are working through this idea of I'm supposed to be this thing all the time. I'm supposed to always have the right answer, always be strong, never need help. I'm supposed to be good at bed Always be

in charge.

Without ever asking, you know, what my partner needs. I'm supposed to be really good at sex. So, like, I'm supposed to you know, all these things. And I think the human experience is one where, well, I'm sometimes this here, and I'm sometimes this here, and we could have a conversation about that and allow that to be fully true. And I will give an example.

I was working at Crunch Fitness when I was in early in my schooling to be a dancer. I agree. To be a dancer. Okay. I remember my my friends with whom I had been dancing, they came to see me at work.

And they were like, Jim, you know, you seem so upset. Like, what's going on? I'm like, I'm not upset. I'm the manager. I played with you in rehearsal because that's a totally different environment, and we have the space for that.

And we're also dancing, we're sweaty. And, you know, I we we worked hard at dance rehearsals too, but there was room for it. I'm like, I'm the manager now.

Everyone This is my resting manager face.

Yeah. Everyone everyone I'm a manager for people who are older than me. Everyone here is older than me, and I'm the manager. I'm like, I don't have the luxury right now, but I'm like, but it's still authentically me. I didn't I actually wasn't feeling angry, but it was interesting that the perception was that I was.

I'm like, oh, because you're comparing me to this other thing, and it's all me. Yes. They're all real me.

Yes.

And so I think I love that we're having this conversation because I think we need more of it. Like, I don't always have to be in charge, but sometimes I am.

Yes. And embrace it. Like, when when I am on, like, I have a very I have a very strict like, when I am in work mode, I'm also in dom mode. So, like, that whole space flows very naturally for me. It's not sexual or feminine in any way, shape, or form.

So when I clock out, it is not just I'm clocking out of work entrepreneurial mode. It's I'm clocking out of this dominant masculine, hard, cerebral headspace, and I am choosing to go, I wanna check the fuck out and get back into my feminine energy again. And so and it is. It's a matter of that switch point becomes a choice of rest. For those switches out there, that switch point becomes a choice of rest.

It is not I'm incapable of being dominant anymore. It's I've been doing it for a minute, and I'm done doing it.

That's right. And it's a courageous act to say, I need space. I need rest, And I need to just take a beat. And to be able to do that with somebody then, in order, if you can be so vulnerable with somebody, to be seen in that, to be seen in the, oh, I am tired right now, or I need to not take on this additional responsibility and I need to hand over the masculine baton to you for a second. That could be an internal dialogue or it can be an external dialogue.

Yes.

And that capacity to recognize when that moment is, to take that rest, so powerful. So I want to be mindful of time and start to get us towards the finish line for this episode because we are fifty minutes in, close to sixty, and we have barely scratched two segments of a of a five, six segment outline.

You you knew what you got when you got me.

Uh-huh. Lovingly and so excitedly so for for all y'all listening. Like, miss Elle has lives on YouTube, and she has a Discord community. And the wisdom that she has dropped in this episode is so juicy, so delicious, so mind blowing. It happens so frequently on her YouTube lives.

I will sit there and and, like, group watch it with friends, and we just, like, gag at each other. We're just like, ah, ah, ah. It's just like the capacity, yeah, is really incredible. So that brings me to the place that I would like to leave here. How does a person who is the dominant of dominance, who is the lady Heather, was it?

The lady Heather. Yeah.

Who is holding space or those that hold space? How did they take their rest?

Unapologetically. Without giving a shit what other people think. It's it's a tricky one because I I always have people or projects vying at me. I mean, I get I get people on a daily basis, mistress, I wanna serve you. Goddess, can I serve you?

And I don't even advertise for that anymore. And so it it's just this matter of anything that you put on the altar of social media will be burned by fire. Anything you put up on the altar of social media will be burned by fire. So I do not put my personal life on social media. I do not put when I check out.

So I, number one, do not have any personal social media accounts. Not one. Every account that I have is strictly for the business because I don't I'm not on social media when I'm not working. And so for me, my boundaries are very unapologetic, and they are very they're very strict. I don't have time to mess around.

And if me self advocating for my rest appropriately makes you perceive me in some type of way, then perceive me in some type of way. But I have but I have shit to do, and I cannot let your false perception of me get me into a place of burnout. You do not have that have that authority over me. You do not have that power over me to guilt me or shame me or make me feel insecure enough to control the pace of my purpose.

To control the pace of my purpose.

And and that's part of why I said rest and boundaries. There's nothing that makes you any more dominant because you are saying, no. You don't control me. I'm sorry that you have demands for me, but I choose what I receive. And if I'm at capacity, you do not get to push your agenda onto me.

And so it it's come from a place of surviving eight years of a highly abusive marriage with a covert narcissist because I didn't set boundaries. I was a broken little girl with no identity, no sense of worth. I wanted somebody to see me, and this covert narcissist said, if you trust me, I can help you. And it was my lack of bounty. Yes.

It was his abuse being abusive. Right? But if I had had the self advocacy to say, no. You are not allowed to abuse me, that's a whole different ballgame.

So this is so perfect. I mean, you are you are basically describing this idea of the wounded healer, and my teacher talks about this all the time, that we take our experiences like the one you just described, and now you have transmuted it into having learned from that to heal yourself and then to bring nourishment and safety and exploration to others. And that is really at the crux of the shamanic yoga embodiment work that we do, which is, you know, a lot of personal healing work in service to that. So then I take I can give from my experience in a way that may be of service. So thank you so much for sharing that Yeah.

Because the world needs it. And and it really the world needs people willing to do the work so that I can say, I've already been there. So maybe you don't have to. Maybe you don't have to do the thing I did for eight years. I I think I heard you say eight years.

Right? Yes. Yeah. Maybe someone else doesn't have to do it for eight years. May maybe you can help them at the end of one year to be like, the signs are there.

And so feel safe.

Wait. Yeah. Yeah. The the latter. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And I already said it. There we go. Yep.

Anyway, so thank you for demonstrating that because it's a core principle in our community of, you know, the gift we have to give is often from the wound that we healed or are in process of healing. And that's it's just really it's really beautiful. Thank you.

Aw. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. For me, your your perspective is far more beautiful than mine.

Mine is really, I'm not gonna let all those years go wasted. I'm not gonna let all those years of me being forced to shrink myself, shrink my voice, being abused and traumatized, all those years, I'm not gonna waste that pain. And and that really is it. I'm just I'm far too tenacious to to allow that to happen. So you're talking to an Enneagram eight.

I don't know what else to say.

I'm just always in awe. I love it. I love spending time with you.

I love spending time with you. And now you, Tim.

Thank you so much. Yeah. Hearing you talk about that of how does the domino of the dominance or Lady Ruth, Lady Other take rest, it reminds me of Tim, actually, who in so many parts of his life is in a position of leadership. And at our most recent retreat was able to rest. Somebody else was able to hold the container.

Somebody else was able to hold the space so that Tim could in that situation be a follower.

And I don't How did it feel?

I mean, I felt really loved. I I felt like some of these people in my life who I I mean, I think I felt seen.

Good.

And I was seen for what I had been able to bring, but also for what I needed and this allowance to be like, oh, you're going through a really rough time, and that's okay here. Yeah. This is why I think I'm so passionate about these spaces because I felt a thing I rarely feel. And then I was safe enough to to relax around around, in this case, around men that wanted nothing from me except my fullness, which is a big part of men's I don't want anything from you. I don't need anything from you except your fullness and whatever that means.

And it just was really incredible. Very healing. It it was the medicine I needed in that moment.

Good. Rejuvenating. Yeah. Good. And I'm glad that you facilitated that.

Definitely, I encouraged. Yeah. This is the reminder for everyone. Rest and the capacity to rest come in a lot of different shapes and sizes. It is my hope, my wish, my prayer that anyone that is listening to this who is in a position of leadership, who thinks that they always have to be on, that they always have to be in control, that they always have to have the right answers, that they always have to be the one with whatever.

And find what works for them to take their rest, whether that is hiring a professional dominatrix or going to therapy, working on yourself so that you can find the words to articulate to people. I have an feeling right now. I cannot take on any more responsibility because it's now starting to feel like an obligation. Obligation. An obligation is getting me to my limit, to my edge, and I'm burnt the fuck out.

And because I'm burnt out, I'm not making good decisions, And I'm not my most effective leader. And so this leader actually needs to take a step back, be a follower for a little bit, and rest. That could be, again, something external outside of us, or it could be internal. So that really is what I took away from this episode. I hope episode one, several more to come.

And with that, I am in deep appreciation and gratitude for you taking this time to be here with us, and I am feeling very complete. And I'm gonna do the round robin now. I feel complete. So

I feel complete. Is there another answer I should provide at this juncture?

It's your opportunity where, if not complete, to offer anything else.

To offer. I would I would probably just end on this and say, dominance, leaders, whatever capacity you're in, you cannot pour from an empty cup. You cannot give what you do not have. And if you're trying to pour out creative ideas for scenes, but you're so burnt out that you can't even think creatively anymore, that's full stop, man. Like, you are a human being first, not a human doing.

You can stop. You can rest. Like, you cannot pour out from an empty cup. You cannot give what you don't have. And it's not selfish to make sure that you're full so that you can pour out on others well.

Beautiful. Thank you so, so, so much. Now are you feeling complete?

I think so.

Jamie,

He's how are he's having a dream right now. Aw. He's he's dreaming. So, yes, but we are we are good over here.

Tim, will you take us out, please?

I will. So let's close our eyes or lower our gaze and bring our awareness back inward for a moment. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for the shared sacred space, for this conversation, for any awarenesses, understandings, or insights that we might have gained that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we've called in. And with these words, our container is open but not broken. Uh-huh.