Mental Health and Men’s Work – A Conversation with Colin Stack-Troost

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth. Welcome. My name is Timothy Bish. And today we have a special guest that I'm very excited to talk about, a mental health professional, a queer mental health professional, who's gonna offer us some insights into how we can be more authentic, more full and ultimately live happier lives. I'm very excited to introduce Colin Stack-Troost.

Colin, welcome. How are you?

I'm doing great. Timothy, thank you so much for having me. It's great to see you.

It's good to see you. Colin, would you do me a favor and just introduce yourself to to the listeners? Tell us a little bit about who you are.

Absolutely. My name is Colin Stacktrust. I'm a queer psychotherapist. I'm licensed in the state of California as a marriage and family therapist. I've been working with clients for over 10 years now. And, the grad school program that I chose, was a clinical psychology program with an emphasis in LGBTQ mental health.

And I chose this program specifically because at the time it was the only program like this. And as a queer person, and as a consumer of mental health, I recognized the need to work with a clinician who really understood the landscape of my life as a queer person.

Mhmm.

I'd worked with some very skilled, clinicians in the past, but in the limited time that you have, 45 or 50 minutes in a therapy session, I found myself doing a lot of explaining of what our world and our culture and our community is like. And so working with a queer clinician, circumvents a lot of that, really maximizes the time. And it's a role that I'm very happy to be in for my queer clients.

Thank you for sharing that. I will tell you, when I first started working with a therapist in New York City, one of the questions I asked initially was, are you gay?

Mhmm.

I might have phrased that question differently now at this point in my life, but, he responded first with, like, well, why do you wanna know? And I'm like, well, I'm not interested in any A classic therapist. Totally. I'm not interested in any of your

classic therapist.

Totally. I'm not interested in any of your personal details. I I said, but what I am interested in is knowing that when I share something with you or when I talk to you about something, do you understand it or will there always be a little experience to the clients who needed you to understand it on a different level?

Absolutely. I disclose my sexuality even in my intake session and during a initial consultation before the client even decides if they wanna move forward working with me or not. I think there's something affirming in that process to make sure that I'm disclosing from a place of pride.

Beautiful. And like modeling, I imagine then, like healthy queer existence living happiness.

I mean, we could jump right in here because one of the things that we are missing as queer men is called healthy mirroring. Right?

What is healthy mirroring?

So we grew up in a time where we didn't see a lot of positive versions of of gay people in media and television and film and music and storytelling. Right?

So the heterosexual experience is filled with a lot of what we call healthy mirroring. So you see yourself in a way that you can connect to that person, maybe feel inspired by that, someone who acts as like a mentor or an inspiration, and we didn't really have that. Mhmm. So part of the therapy can even begin just from having the client process what it's like to experience this healthy mirroring, from sitting across from an openly gay or queer clinician who leads starts off the conversation by saying, yeah, this is who I am. This is my life and how I love.

Wow. Yeah. I think that's, been important for me and in my personal experience because, you know, I'm 46 years old. I don't think I have met or knew any queer people, any out queer people until my early twenties when I moved to New York City.

Mhmm.

And so up until that point, all I really had was like limited media and fear based thinking and stories handed to me from my from my family. So I thought for a long time that queer people and gay people like lived in dark shadowy places and did dark shadowy things. And, and I remember struggling with this sort of incongruence of like, well, I don't feel like a demon, but that's how this is being described. And then it was only in my twenties where I'm like, oh, that person living fully, living, you know, openly living apparently at times happily. And like, it is possible.

And it was, you know, obviously transformational to observe that and see that.

So what you're saying is you found queer people in New York City?

Don't tell anybody, but there are a few there are a few there. Yeah.

Your secret's safe with me. Don't worry. Well, I guess now on this podcast.

No. Now now it's out. I mean, what's interesting is that I went to New York City and I was in the New York University dance department. So I went from the suburb of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is an incredible city with a lot of art and I absolutely love it.

And I did meet some queer people there, but mainly in the the theater and dance academies that I was in, not in high school or, you know, in local places. And then you go immediately to a dance department in New York University and it's a whole new world. So I had I had a quick education and it was at times a little bit challenging, and occasionally embarrassing. Like, when I things that I just didn't know I should know. And you only learn that, in in the experience of it.

And then of course, if you're like 18 years old, sometimes it's you, you find out because someone's like, dude, like you should know this. Yeah.

Can I ask you a question?

I want you

to. So did you have a sex ed class in like junior high or high school?

I did. I Yeah. Like I don't even know how to respond. Yes, I did. I did.

Was it an abstinence only sex ed class or was it a little bit more in-depth?

It was abstinence only. So I remember we did talk about condoms as a thing that existed and, like, the reason they existed. But we we could not talk about how to use them or why we would use them because we shouldn't. Mhmm. It's very that scene from Mean Girls where you're like, oh, you're gonna, like, get get gonorrhea and die.

Like like,

it was, you know Which I was thinking.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like which is a really funny scene actually. But yes, it was it was essentially don't.

And the education was mainly around that.

Right. Yeah. I think a lot of our listeners can connect to what you're describing and certainly did not have a gay sex ed.

I don't even think they I don't think that ever came up actually. Yeah. And of course I was I was too afraid to ask that question. So no one did. Yeah.

Yeah. Right.

Okay. Well, I'm super glad that you're here, and that hopefully this podcast will is it is it possible that this conversation will provide healthy mirroring?

I imagine so.

Okay. Okay. I learned a new phrase and I'm happy about it. Well listen, so I'm I'm excited to talk to you because of your experience and your clientele. I want to get into a few a few things about the challenges of living today as a man.

So we're going to talk about that. What are the challenges facing men today? And then and then after that, what are the challenges facing queer men today? Mhmm. And, and then and then we'll move on from there.

So so let's start off with what are some of the biggest challenges facing men today with regards to their mental health or their well-being or their manner of

living? I'm gonna go even broader for just a moment and talk about the challenges that men and women face around the expectations of gender. I'd love that. And now we're gonna we're gonna zoom in on the male experience for the purpose of this conversation. The pressures of maleness, the expectations of what maleness should be, what it is not, and how it can be problematic if you're not meeting that archetype of maleness.

Okay. Right? Yeah. And, so from there, I think, can I zoom in a little bit onto the queer male experience? Or do you want me to say more about the

Well, I mean, I guess I would like to start initially with the general challenges because men's work, which is like my background, or part of my background is designed to help men get in touch with themselves fully to have a more authentic lived experience. To connect with people more authentically, more fully. And a lot of the things we talk about in this world are the challenges that they face that are sort of culturally, handed to us. So the idea that, like, a man should, not really need help, a man should experience his emotions in, like, very specific ways or otherwise not really, Except for maybe like happiness at like a football game or like sadness when your mom dies. Like, there were like there are these slices when you're allowed to feel emotions, but otherwise, you should be sort of above that is one of the expectations and Stoic.

Yeah. And like you should you should be powerful.

Powerful.

You should be good at things. You you should be good at things fast. You shouldn't have to need much help. This is why honestly, and I don't want to get too deep into this, but, partly why I think a lot of, a lot of men are not great lovers is this idea like, well, I'm supposed to already be really good at this. And now it's also sort of taboo for me to ask too many questions that might let me that might paint me as a novice in some way.

So I think some people have struggled with that. I've I've heard I've heard talk from like my female friends and it's like, oh, if you don't have the space to to ask because you feel like that will make you a failure, then maybe you don't ask and you just do what you've seen or do what you think is the right idea. But, so these pressures are existing for men and men's work is one of the reactions to it. And so, so I'm just curious, like what are some of the biggest challenges that you see men facing that they would benefit from looking at and working with? You just touched on

some very important things, right? The expectations of maleness, how we are supposed what the relationship is with our emotions and our expression of emotion, the expectation to be like the king archetype. Right? And what happens if you don't meet these expectations to be powerful, to be stoic, to be strong? There is a lot that goes into what I call the man box of what you're supposed to be as a male.

The man box.

The man box.

So so is this like this is the box in which we would put these expectations? Is that what you're Correct. Mhmm. And so what like, when you have clients who are not fully stepping into this idea of what it is to be a man according to our culture in this moment, What do you notice? Like, what are the challenges around that?

What if what if there is a a man that is, checking some of the boxes but is more emotional, doesn't know how to have a space for that or is what what do you notice in those examples?

Shame, feeling a sense of low self worth, turning against themselves for being overly sensitive or emotional, or on the flip side, not giving themselves a place to channel their emotions or feeling. And what happens both psychically and somatically when someone is suppressing all of this emotional energy.

Beautiful. Right. So we're gonna definitely get into that, ways in which men will typically try to fill those voids are correct and then and then healthy ways that maybe you would recommend that they try to do it. But so okay. So with that in mind, in this sort of man box, is there also a queer man box?

Oh, that's a good question. You have to think about that one.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I guess I'm I guess my question is, or or another way of saying it would be, is there an additional layer that queer men are facing in their pursuit of stepping into their masculinity and, like, living as a man?

I think that the tension is stronger. The stakes are higher. The queer male experience within the context of the man box, deep within the queer male experience is the knowledge of queerness, of knowing that you are not seeking the female companion that is part of what makes a man a man, is that he's got a woman by his side. Mhmm. That he will ultimately step into this king or father paternal figure.

And for the queer male experience, knowing within that there is this difference. And that difference is so powerful that it could lead to a sense of not being included, to not feel a sense of belonging in the dominating culture or tribe or group. Mhmm.

Right? So when we talked in a previous episode about the the core questions that I feel like I've observed as a coach and facilitator in men's work. And I was saying that it occurred to me that a lot of my cisgendered heterosexual brothers were wrestling with some version of the question like, am I man enough? Mhmm. And these questions are really valid and they were doing deep exploration around that.

And and it's been my experience that queer men can have that question too. But I've also noticed with queer men, sometimes the question is, am I a man? And I just wanted I was wondering if you had observed in your practice, any version of those two questions and how they might operate for a queer man.

Yeah. So am I man enough is something that straight cis men and queer cis men struggle with, is their relationship to that question. How close am I to this archetype of maleness that has a lot of the stereotypes that we had previously mentioned, then the conversation of am I a man is more about a person's relationship with gender and gender expression and how they feel in their heart is the gender that they truly are. And this is getting into more of the the trans experience.

Well, it is I must I have to imagine, trans men and trans people ask themselves these questions. But even myself, as a gay boy, like, I would often when I would, exhibit qualities that were observed by the people around me as gay, what would often happen is that they would, call me a girl or or other some other sort of feminine, label that was clearly meant as, derogatory. Mhmm.

And

so I do think there were moments when I would I would ask myself, like, well, like the world is telling me that I'm being a girl. Mhmm. Like And why is that bad? No. It isn't bad.

But But I'm saying this this gets back to my point, just the fear of the feminine showing up.

Well, so I think for the young queer person, it's, that that question, like, almost feels like, like a a thing we could think about later. Like, it isn't bad. And I actually revere the feminine. And so any any comparison to the feminine to me is like a compliment. But in that moment, it was it felt like, oh, if I'm a man that is being described as a woman, like, now I'm potentially facing, like, safety issues.

Correct.

Right. So so in that moment, why is that bad? That's bad because then the, like, the world or the situation around me is signaling that I might not be safe.

Correct.

Right? That is that's a very real and so then you start to wonder, like, well, like, what parts of me are are, I was like man enough. But what parts of me are are man enough to not be in danger? Which parts aren't? Are those parts male?

Are they are they masculine? Like what are they? I think these questions these are questions I've certainly had and I know that other people have too. I'm just wondering, how you've seen that present maybe in younger or maybe not?

One of the most unpleasant feelings I think we have in the spectrum of the human experience is a sense of not belonging.

Right? Yeah, totally.

Yeah. The book Sapiens talks about this. The author's name is escaping me, but it's a very important point that's made early on in the book is what is your relationship with feeling a sense of belonging to, again, this notion of the tribe or community, whatever that is. Do you feel safe and connected and protected by the community? Or are you on the outside?

And for the experience of maleness because of the expectations around what a man should be, what is in that man box, And then if you're not that or if you're outside of that, do you then not feel as connected or as protected or safe?

Mhmm.

Does that make you the subject of bullying or ridicule?

So this feels really clear to me, in the context that we're describing now. Right? A queer person, especially in their youth, kind of figuring out who they are and how they live and having the world and environment around them respond in a particular way and then and then not feel safe or not feel seen or start to question how it is they should show up.

Mhmm.

So now if I take a leap, as as now an an adult Mhmm. Living in the what one might describe as a queer community Mhmm. It still feels like people are struggling with the sense of belonging and a sense of feeling protected by community. How do you feel those experiences play into that experience as an adult?

So what comes to mind immediately is trauma and there's PTSD trauma that happens after one has experienced an acute traumatic event, an accident, perhaps they served in combat, there was an abuse situation, there was an acute event or experience that caused a that was traumatic for the individual and sort of imprints something in the psyche about their feeling of safety in the world, right? Complex PTSD, complex trauma is something that I believe many queer people, in this case queer men experience or really anyone who felt that they didn't have a sense of belonging or are part of an oppressed or suppressed group. And so this feeling looks like every day wondering if they have a if they can be safe or present authentically in the world. And the word for this is hypervigilance. So it's constantly with the limited bandwidth that you have every day, a portion of that is being designated to, like, imagine this radar sort of moving through the world, assessing how safe you can be at any given moment.

For the queer experience that can look like, is it safe for me to dress the way that I want to? Is it safe for me to hold my partner's hand on this street, in this mall, in this movie theater? Right?

Yeah. Yeah. I I relate to a lot of what you said, that idea of hypervigilance. And I think based on my own experience, it can be, I mean, obviously, it it it initially is there to serve a purpose. Mhmm.

But it feels like it can be the sort of energetic drain. Certainly. The sort of, withdrawal from the from your bank account that you're you have to make every day. And so then you have to account for that. So have how have you noticed that, people in your practice who are working with this, hypervigilance and then and then experiencing the impact of it, which I have to imagine is mainly challenging or what we might describe as negative.

Yeah. So think about the editing that happens when you learn from an early age, perhaps a message of gayness or queerness not being acceptable and learning how to change the way that you speak, dress or present yourself to make sure that you can have that sense of belonging. So it becomes a survival skill that can form at a very early age. Mhmm. And then this survival skill, which at one point in our lives was perhaps necessary to keep us safe, is is still happening, and it continues into our adulthood and in our relationships.

And getting back to your question, how you find yourself at home in community when this editing mechanism is so strong and very fully formed and it's something that you have practiced for years, if not decades? How do you unlearn that?

Yeah, that's interesting. I, I feel like I wanna share 2 things with you. One thing is that I tell my friends now, that I'm a that I'm a really good liar and manipulator. And, and I and I explained. I'm like, you know, this is a a thing that I had to do in my childhood because I could get in trouble, pretty quickly, sometimes without even like, I could sometimes get in trouble for not knowing the thing no one told me.

I was supposed to sort of already know it. And so I became very skilled in, like, telling partial stories and, like, I'm trying to feel into the listener to figure out, like, what was good or not good in order to avoid this thing. And so part of my practice now in trying to step into a more authentic way of being is that I tell people that. I tell them right away and I tell them I'm good at telling jokes because I'm good at lying. And so I will tell you within a minute that I'm just kidding, which I have like a very high success rate.

There was one time I told a joke and then I think I got a phone call and got distracted and I did not tell the person and so they believed me. And I'm like, oh, fuck. The thing I'm trying to avoid. But, but mainly, I'll be like 60 seconds or less. I'll be like, I was just joking.

That isn't true. Like, here's the truth. That's my practice. The other thing I wanted to share was I was watching, a segment of Brene Brown, who I like very much. And she was talking about how she was, she was surprised to discover that the opposite of belonging was fitting in.

And she was talking about like because in order to fit in, you have to figure out what you think the people around you want and then you start to exemplify only those things and not anything that isn't that. Whereas belonging would be, like, I can be here, my full self

Authentically.

And then and then I feel safe that, like, Eve, like my fullness will be accepted. And that really that really hit me because I'm like, oh, yeah. People love fitting in.

Mhmm.

I think it feels good to feel safe even if that safety is based on an illusion.

But as long as you are just fitting in and not belonging, there will always be a part of you that knows deep in your heart of hearts that you're you're not there authentically. Totally.

I think and that ripples through everything. Mhmm. Pieces of, like, when you're hiding yourself. Right. Okay.

So so yes. Exactly. I'm I'm so glad we're having this conversation. Thank you. Okay.

So

can talk about this all day.

I'm curious then, challenges facing men, challenges facing queer men, and all the kinds of queer men.

Mhmm.

I wanna now talk a little bit about, typical ways that you've seen men try to address these challenges or fill the void of whatever they think is missing. And then the same question for queer men and like what what is the overlap? Like, what things have you noticed are different? And in this moment, before we talk about healthy ways you might recommend, like, what are the most common ways that you tend to see?

The overlap I would say is in the, Dopamine Nation, which is an amazing book that talks about our relationship with dopamine as a way to fill this void. And this is something that isn't specific to cis men and queer men, straight men. The so the relationship with the dopamine release would be drugs, sex, gambling, shopping, exercise, food, things where you get into a place of wrong relationship as opposed to right relationship with any of these things to fill a void.

Right? So that's the overlap where both, heterosexual men and queer men, they can, What have you noticed in queer men in specific, specifically, that is that is that is separate? Have you have you noticed anything about, like, queer men tend to try these things or tend to to do these things?

Yeah. So again, there's a bit of an overlap here, but there's an amazing book, by Allen Downs called The Velvet Rage. Such a great book. Yeah. He's a psychologist who practices in Los Angeles and wrote this book, The Velvet Rage, as a summation of his work with gay male clients.

And the velvet rage is basically comes from feeling not enough, feeling less than, and trying to make up for that, trying to make up for the gayness which we might see as this inherent shameful issue that we have to overcome by being perfect, by being the captain of the sports team, by becoming the CEO, the valedictorian, and that really sometimes crushing pressure that we put on ourselves to be this thing. So someone couldn't, you know, blame us for our gayness. It's like, well, you know, he's gay, but he's he's the CEO or he he does this. Mhmm. You know, he's got the $1,000,000 house and the, you know, fancy car and that whole perfect shiny life.

So Yeah. You can't really knock the gayness.

So have you have you noticed that this mechanism of high achievement, or overachievement, can reach like a tipping point? And if so, like, a little bit like, healthy mirroring. Is there like is there is there a a term or a condition when someone's like, well, I've been overcompensating so much for so long.

And

then at some point, I'm like, I just I just can't do that anymore. What tell me about that if if you know anything about that.

Yeah. Absolutely. When those relationships get out of balance, eventually, I think what I've seen in the window into the worlds of the clients that I've worked with over the years, what brings them to therapy is realizing that what they're doing is not sustainable. And either something has happened, a situation that brought them to therapy because something broke, or they can sense that something is on the immediate horizon and they're trying to get ahead of that. Wow.

Yeah. So so what I'm hearing you say drugs, food, all the things that you mentioned, these are the typical things that men can turn to when they are feeling overwhelmed by their challenges, facing their challenges, trying to manage their challenges. But if we were to think now about how how you might recommend someone, what things you would recommend for someone so that they could approach this in a healthier, more sustainable manner. What what might you suggest?

The framing that I like to use is right relationship. Great. Are you in right relationship with any of those things that I mentioned? And this question of right relationship, I actually go way back to Freud where his framing to help us gauge with ourselves through our absolute most authentic self awareness, the question of is what I'm doing affecting my work or ability to produce or create in whatever way that is? That looks very different for everybody.

It can be your 9 to 5 corporate job. It could be your work as an artist or a performer or a poet. Is the the practice that you're doing or is the behavior getting in the way of your ability to do that? Right? Are you not able to show up for that 9 AM meeting on Monday because you're too hungover?

Right? So that's question 1. Question 2 is, is the behavior affecting your ability to make or maintain your close interpersonal relationships? Okay.

So now from the perspective of this podcast. Right? So this podcast is a a queer look, a queer conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, men's personal growth. And, you know, as the listeners now know, I work in men's work, men's coaching, and men's facilitation with a heavy shamanic yoga component to it. I'm curious how you feel that can serve men in pursuing, like, a healthier way of living and specifically queer men.

So one of the things that I love about the practices that inform your work from my understanding is the mindfulness component. Right? And bringing in mindfulness techniques when we're in these maybe spiraling out into a vortex of craving or desiring something quick to fill the void of feeling unworthy. Right?

So, let's assume someone's listening and they don't really know what you mean by mindfulness. Like, what do you mean by mindfulness?

I think of mindfulness as awareness. The word presence comes to mind. It's using breath work or body scan techniques, meditation to connect back to the present moment, to bring your awareness back to your body, to your breath, and ultimately sort of activate the prefrontal cortex, which we need to have come online when we start to get hijacked by our amygdala system. Fear. Fear, survival.

Yeah. Thank you. Okay, so what have you noticed about men in your practice and their relationship with their physical body, their awareness of it, their ability to sense it, and how it can impact them in their lives?

It's really across the board depending on what sort of routines my clients have. Some of them regularly engage in more embodied practices, and everyone has a different relationship to their physical body. Where I see it coming up as, something that we could potentially work on is when there's a a little bit of a disconnect from the relationship to the body. Whether that presents itself in terms of their exercise routine, their sex life, what they maybe still have yet to explore about what their body can do. Mhmm.

It's interesting the work that I do, you know, embodiment work, yoga, fitness, acupuncture, I have had over the last 3 decades an enormous amount of opportunity to observe human movement, not only in myself but in other people. And it has it has been an interesting discovery when I, like, look at people who who seem very out of touch with their own physical body. Mhmm. And that isn't that isn't an insult. I mean, obviously, I was training as a dancer.

So, you know, I'm not trying no. Not that everyone needs to be a professional dancer or or move at that level. But when I was reading and I'm pretty sure it was either The Body Keeps the Score by,

Bessel Van Der Kolk.

That's right. Or or Waking the Tiger by, Peter Levine. I can't remember which of those 2, but they were talking about, like, all of these different, like, ways of managing or working with trauma. And what I realized was, through my dance and theater training, I was very fortunately getting some trauma treatment as a young boy and didn't realize it. What I did realize was, oh, I feel I feel safe and I feel safe in these environments and I feel I usually feel better when I'm done.

I mean, barring a totally disastrous ballet class. Typically you walk out feeling better than when you walked in much like an extra, like a fitness class or a workout. But what do you think for for people who are very separate or detached or or not aware of their own physicality, why do you think that is and what do you think they can do to to work with that?

Why do I think that is? Maybe someone grew up in an environment or with a family, that didn't inspire a lot of movement or mind body connection. They just didn't see that happening around them or they didn't feel called to, to exercise or movement or even stretching or dancing. Right?

Yeah. And to me, in my experience, the exploration of what you're feeling, although initially can be can be challenging, can be, as you mentioned earlier, a great way of sort of bringing yourself back into the present moment. Like, if I'm feeling scattered,

if

I start to ask myself how I'm feeling, what sensations are present in me, What is the quality of my breath? Like, what does the sole of my foot feel like on the earth? Depending, you know, these things almost immediately start to bring me back into presence. And then I have learned that the more people start to settle into understanding their own emotional state, they are then more able to start to feel into or empathize with or whatever the word might be, other people's making them, you know, a more connected partner, more maybe more compassionate. Certainly not that this would be the only reason to do it, but a more connected lover.

Mhmm. When you

start to understand how you feel and how it feels, then I think you can get more and more in touch with, like, well, now how is this person feeling and what can I do to, like, work with that feeling or help create a feeling or sustain a feeling, you know? So I think there's a lot of benefit available in this exploration, but I think it can be really challenging, at first. I have had this experience in one of my men's groups where we were doing a body scan practice. And the the body scan practice is pretty simple. Scan down to the body looking for sensation.

When you find it, you recognize it. And then you ask this question like, is there an emotion underneath it? And you try not to bring any story. So you might say tension in my eyebrows feels connected to anxiety. And that's and then you keep moving, you keep moving.

And I remember I asked this one person and they just couldn't do it. They were like, I feel fine. I was like, yes, but what what sensations are there? They're like, no. I feel fine.

I feel fine. They is it as if the idea that there was a feeling in their body was like not possible or or almost absurd. So my question to you would be, if you meet a person who is in that place, like, what might you encourage them or how might you encourage them to start to build a relationship with their own physicality?

That's a tough one, but maybe just notice as they're doing this body scan if there are any places where they notice discomfort and if they need to adjust how they're sitting or laying, or if there are areas that feel good, where you do feel comfortable, And just bring that attention to that place in the body. Like, oh, that feels nice. What what is nice exactly? Like, is it is it the softness? Is it the feeling of being held by, you know, if you're laying on the ground and you just are connecting to that feeling of the gravity supporting you?

Is it the texture of what you are wearing that day? Is it the temperature of the room? Yeah, great. Alan Watts, has a beautiful quote that I'm gonna butcher right now, but it's basically like this invitation for people to think about how nothing lasts, nothing lasts in our world. Things are constantly in the state of changing from one thing to another.

So, on the one hand, your agony is about to be assuaged, but your joy will inevitably be destroyed. Nothing lasts. And in the same vein, this is what our emotions do also. Right? Energy in motion.

So you'll have that wave of joy followed by a wave of sadness or jealousy or comparison. And these will move through you, and it's so important for us to let those move through us to connect to them and let ourselves feel it instead of acting like it's not there.

So then, I wanna know, so I'm assuming the listeners do too. Colin, when you feel moments of jealousy or comparison, what do you do?

Jealousy is an invitation for me to look inward and ask myself, what am I needing right now that I'm not getting? Is there something there that I could be providing for myself? Am I feeling insecure? Am I comparing myself to someone or something else? Do I feel left out?

Am I wanting closeness or connection that I'm not getting right now? Have I asked for that? Have I let that need take up space? Or am I resenting because I want it and I want people to read my mind, but they don't know until I ask, until I let that need take up space. Right?

So once you identify that thing, sometimes I imagine the, the finding the solution isn't immediate. Meaning like if, if you discover, oh, I'm needing some closeness, but you might have to wait 8 hours, 12 hours before you can take the first step, then then what do you do?

So I wanna share something that immediately comes to mind here and this is something that maybe our listeners can connect to. It was something that I saw here in Provincetown that was an example of just really beautiful parenting that I saw. I was waiting. I'd ordered food from somewhere, and I'm waiting on a picnic table, and there was a mom with her daughter like playing nearby, waiting as well. And this little girl at one point trips and falls, and you know, it was, looked like it hurt.

And she starts crying. And the mom crouches down and starts comforting her and immediately just jumps into this mirroring. Again, we're back to the healthy mirroring by saying, oh, that looks like it really hurt. That must have felt really painful and maybe a little scary. And and it was just so affirming of the experience that just happened for this little kid.

And the kid is, like, nodding, like, yeah, that really hurt mom. Like, ow. And mom is just with her, like, with her connecting to every step of this emotional experience that she's having as a result of, like, this little moment. And I'm watching this happen, and I was just really taken aback because that is the kind of relationship that we can receive from a parent or caregiver, and not everybody had that kind of closeness and affirming. Mhmm.

That ultimately grows into a practice of doing that for ourselves.

Wow. Okay. So I just wanna, what I heard you say was finding ways to build the capacity to parent ourselves in moments, to care for ourselves, to hold space for ourselves Yeah. And, like, learning the skill set.

Yeah. Wow. Like what am I feeling? Oh, I'm feeling that's what that is. That's jealousy or that's loneliness or that's grief.

So but after the identification then you're saying then you would be like that that feels a certain way. Like it's okay to feel that way. What can I do? Like then it's you take steps after that.

Ideally. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But but naming it is that self awareness that is so important.

Yeah. I can't tell you how many times in my childhood, adults would just be like, that doesn't hurt.

Yeah.

And it's very confusing because you're like, well, it seems like it does.

I'm actually really hurting right now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But you telling me this isn't making it any better.

Yeah. You're

telling me to just stuff it away.

Yeah. Mhmm. And it it doesn't really teach you any, coping mechanism except like, ignore, suppress.

Away. Ignore, suppress. Yeah. Yeah. Conceal, don't feel.

Yeah. Conceal, don't feel. Right. And that's the the opposite obviously of, embodiment practice, you know, for men and for women. This idea of allowing yourself as much access to the full gamut of human experience as we can.

And then from that place, honoring where you tend to lie authentically and then express from there. It's tricky though. Yeah. Yeah.

Do you remember what I shared with you about the sneeze?

I remember you sharing about the sneeze, remind us.

Okay, so have you ever tried to hold back a sneeze when you have to sneeze?

Of course.

It's very uncomfortable.

Yeah, yeah.

Like something, some debris has made its way into your nostril and your body's response is like, we gotta get this out of here. Right? Yeah. And then you sneeze and you feel better. But if you try to hold back that sneeze, it's very uncomfortable.

And it's Think of it as like when you stub your toe, right? This unexpected, like, searing pain shoots into your foot and leg. And some expletives may, you know, leave your mouth immediately following this experience. Yeah. Because it hurt.

And this can happen when we encounter something in our world that triggers us or makes us feel sad or jealous or angry. It's important for us to figure out how we can let out that sneeze.

Beautiful. So one more question before we wrap up. I'm just curious. Do you think that embodiment work, movement, breath, sound, visualization, attention direction can help people, all people, you know, in the context of this podcast, men and queer men, but help people get a clear sense of who and how they are in the world?

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Yes. And tell me more about that if you can.

Our, sometimes when we experience an emotion and we're feeling it, we're ruminating on it, it's helpful to talk about it and feel witnessed and recognized by somebody when you ask the question maybe like, hey, I'm really bothered by something, like, do you have some space that you can hold for me today? Right? And you have that connection. But another self soothing strategy is to think about what you do with the energy of that feeling in your body.

So to self self soothe, you recognize the energy and then and then the ability to work with it somehow, which might be through movement, it might be through breath, it might be through meditation and attention or visualization. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

Correct. I most of my sessions for therapy now are done over Zoom and telehealth, but I sometimes miss having my physical office space because I had this amazing practice for a client who was getting in touch with a relationship with anger called beat the crap out of the couch with a tennis racket. And to just give people permission to just access their anger that way in the safety of a therapy session. It's pretty cathartic.

Yeah. There's, there's a practice in the men's workspace. I don't remember its precise name, but it is exactly that. It allows someone an opportunity to, like, fully express their anger Mhmm. And then immediately be held once that expression is completed.

And, I've I've facilitated and assisted this practice many, many times. I've only ever done it once, but the one time I did do it was a pretty remarkable release of stuck energy. I mean, you know, I don't wanna get too into Trauma and the Body. I feel like that could be a whole series of podcasts. But but based on those books that we mentioned earlier, we know that, like, the body really can hold on to things.

And so this score. Yeah. Yeah, opportunity to release it and then some freedom that comes with it. But it required that safe container into which I'm a I'm gonna allow myself the fullness of this expression as raw and ugly and intense and dangerous as it might be because this container has got me. Yes.

And then from that, I can experience, like, a freedom that I might not otherwise have when I'm, you know, a civilized adult, like, trying to manage my life in the real world. You can't you can't scream and pound the floor at the bank, usually. The bank I wouldn't recommend it. No. No.

No. But so that that's why these these opportunities are so powerful, so helpful. Well, Colin, I would like to thank you so much for all of your time and attention and your offering of your expertise and your insight. I think the work that you're doing is I don't think I know because I've benefited from the same work of having a therapist who is a queer man, who has allowed me safety and opportunity for expression. So it's it's it's vital important work for for our community and for the world.

And to the extent that you were willing to come here and share some of that with us, I just have the deepest of appreciation. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. I am so grateful to have these conversations and amplify what we're talking about so that our listeners and our communities and our friends can connect to these topics and not feel alone in what we're describing. People feel like they can be connected to a community that's also struggling with these same things that we're talking about. And it gets to a point where we're just sort of comparing maps on how people self soothe and address these important issues. Well,

I hope that this is an ongoing conversation, not not just that this podcast is an ongoing conversation, but the conversation with you is an ongoing conversation. So hopefully, you will come back and, you know, talk about other topics and and things. But for this moment, with this with this particular episode, I I feel compelled to ask you, like, do you feel complete?

I do. Thank you for asking.

So then let's take this opportunity for us all to feel a sense of appreciation and gratitude for the opportunity to engage in a conversation of this nature. And with these words, I also feel complete.