The Shaman’s Mind: Jonathan Hammond on Queer Wisdom, Nature’s Intelligence, and the Power to Co-Create Reality

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practice, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you haven't already, please be sure to like, follow, and subscribe. And of course, if there's a topic you'd like to know know more about, please send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. Today, we're joined by Jonathan Hammond, a Maui based author, spiritual teacher, and energy healer.

A trained shamanic practitioner and counselor, Jonathan blends Hawaiian wisdom, earth based psychology, and energy healing in his work with clients all around the world. Tim, Jonathan, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready. Aloha. Let's do this then.

So Jonathan, welcome. I'm so glad you could join us today.

So happy to be here. Thank you for having me, guys.

So you live on Maui now. Correct?

Correct.

So I'm curious. How has living on the island and learning from that land influenced your path as a healer and a teacher?

I I just got much closer to nature. I I was a shamanic practitioner and counselor and all that in New York City for twenty five years. That's how I met Tim. And it was time to go, and I was one of those people who moved my my my business online during COVID and came here, and it's it's changed in that I I feel very connected to to nature now. I feel and I you know, it's one thing to be in consciousness work.

It's another thing to tune into that vast sky that I see every day and, and the vast ocean that I see every day and the whales breaching that you can see from your car, and, all of that. Headswing with the turtles as a daily experience and all that. So it just it opened something in me in terms of I'd always made a correlation between mental health and spiritual attunement with nature, but it it deepened since I've been here. So that's pretty much it. And, yeah, you know, I wrote a book on Hawaiian spirituality.

So there was a point where it was like, gotta kinda be on brand and and move to the place where where where I've moved to the horse's mouth, so to speak. So that's, that's what I did. So I have, and I've left once. I've been here four and a half years, and I have left the island to teach one time. I've not, I've not even gone to one of the other islands.

I'd like, there's where else are you gonna go? It's, it's pretty great.

There's a beautiful thing about finding your place and and being really confident in that place. So Yes. You you mentioned your books. You're the author of The Shaman's Mind and The Shaman Within. So for all of our listeners and myself, I'm wondering if you could just take us to the basics.

What does the word shaman mean to you?

The shaman is a is a healer, a healer of relationships. The relationships we have between, ourselves and others, between others and others, between others and the planet, between our mind and our body. It's a and the shaman looks to nature. Nature is is what we worship in shamanism and looks to nature to teach us how to be. Nature nature is a template toward authenticity, interconnection, interdependence, toward the the the legitimacy of diversity, which, you know, a healthy ecosystem is based on a diverse its its diverseness.

A monocrop will kill the land. So and nature is unapologetically everything in nature is unapologetically, authentically itself and has no interest in being something other than itself, which is very different than our human culture. So so that's sort of, that's why it's it's my path. And nature also, you know, in spirituality, we we think a lot about morality and things like that and a lot of a lot of, like, religious wounding and all that. And shamanism and earth based spirituality is not so much about being good.

It's about being true. I think that's a helpful distinction.

Sorry. So when we think about shamanism, my understanding is that it is an umbrella term and that there are so many different shamanic systems. And and you wrote a book about the Hawaiian shamanic system, but can you speak a little bit to how shamanism has at its core an essence even though it can look and sound different depending on the the land and the people from which it is birthed?

Well, it it's it's a very loaded word, and it's not a word people have called me that, but it's not a word that I particularly wanna take up, and I'm not really the esoteric translation is one who sees in the dark or one who sees what others do not wish to see. That's the sort of esoteric, translation. But it's essentially the the the natural healers connected to the land, connected to community, connected to the natural medicines of the land, connected to the spirit of the land, and and the spirit of their community. And so so every culture has a version of it. The reason why I landed on Hawaii besides the fact that I'm obsessed with Hawaii Mhmm.

Was because as a as a shamanic student for many years, I was looking for shamanism is very you know, it's about journeying. It's about other worlds that you can enter into. It's about spirit guides, and all that stuff is beautiful. But I was really looking for something that would ground my my understanding psychologically in what was going on when we're practicing shamanism. And that really and I found it in the in the Hawaiian system.

The Hawaiian system is very psychological, and it's very philosophical. And and that helped me kind of ground my my understanding of shamanism and my understanding of healing in something that can be replicated, in something that can be taught to others, in something that is is more in alignment with, our contemporary psychological paradigms that we understand, and that really came from, from Hawaii. You wouldn't think it, but Hawaii is very, the Hawaiian shamanism, has a very psychological backbone to it. And so that's why, that's why I sort of landed on it.

So I'm curious for anyone who's listening who this may be a new concept. Would you consider the practices of yoga a form of shamanism? And if not, like, what is the distinction?

Any indigenous spiritual teaching that is healing, that grows love, that brings people together, that aligns oneself with oneself, I would consider I would consider shamanic for sure. For sure. So, yeah, that's just that's just that's just another system. You know? There's there's there's nothing new under the sun.

Mhmm. And at the end of the day at the end of the day, if you if you go into any system, any true legitimate system deeply enough and with enough dedication, you will find correlates of the same truth. You know? So, yeah, I I I would I I think it's it's kind of exactly the same. Not exactly the same, but but very in alignment.

And you know this, that so much of of yoga has to do with natural elements, sun salutation, and and that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's very, very connected for

sure. I've often thought there was, like, an an enormous amount of crossover in that Venn diagram, and that's always been, like, super exciting to

me and resonated with me deeply. I love this concept of anything that aligns oneself to oneself. Right? And that bringing ourselves back to home and really working and looking within first and foremost. And then I'm curious how that principle then connects to the direct relationship with nature and how it is that we can then cultivate that relationship with nature.

What needs healing? What needs healing in all of us? Inauthenticity. Some some idea or story of ourselves usually taught to us or adopted by us through what we've experienced that is actually not true. That is a mistake.

That is contrary to our actual nature. And so healing is about, if you think of shamanic healing, shamanic healing is just about removing that which obscures our nature or bringing back that which is missing from our nature. So so in in in our connection with nature, what we're really looking at is an interdependent world that is alive, that has a spirit, that is, as I said, unapologetically unapologetically authentic to itself, Spy wants for itself, is very self interested, and also at the same time collectively interested, which is a very separate from our human culture. Our human culture tends to be tends to be self interested, and the collective interest is we cut corners on. And so indigenous mind or the shamanic mind is one of equal self interest and collective interest.

And so just as just as the tree wants for itself and wants to open itself to the sun and to the rain and and all that, at the same time, we're breathing the tree. So it gives its gift through its authenticity. And in some way, that is what we're all, but I think our our our purpose on this planet is to give the gift to the world that comes from our authenticity. And so it's both. So it's it's a deep love of self that that gets one on the path toward the giving the gift of self to the world.

And that's just epitomized in nature.

So I think you just answered this question with with what you were saying. But, you know, my first primary spiritual practice is yoga. That's what I have found. Yeah. And one of the reasons I resonated so deeply with yoga is because there was no asterisk by my name because I was a gay person or a queer person.

Mhmm. And now, I'm hearing you talk a lot about the value and importance of authenticity in shamanism. Can you speak just a little bit about the shamanic perspective of queerness and and how that has operated for you?

Well, it's really rich, and it's really and it's really in your face. Because in in shamanic cultures, and and I would say pretty much all shamanic cultures, if the child was thought to be queer, they were immediately put on the shamanic path. That's what two spirited means. And the the idea being that that the child holds both the the a masculine and a feminine polarity. And if you think of the nature of the divine, that is the all.

And so so the queer person was considered actually closer to the all. Also, because the queer person was not going to follow the conventionality of a family and a wife and a and all of that, it was that they were they were a little bit peripheral to to the those conventional roles, which which gave them the the the license to attune to a bigger perspective than what is in those conventional roles. So the people in the conventional roles went to them to actually learn about consciousness. So it is very rich. In the in the Hawaiian tradition, they're called mahus.

And but two spirited people are are and and that's even why when you think of queer people now, they're channelers. You know? They're they're the people that write West Side Story. They're the people that tell us what to wear. They're the people that you know, they're the people who are who are attuned to the collective cultural consciousness and and have answers that are outside that are outside conventional roles.

So so and that's why you see so many queer people in clergy, in as healers, as, certainly, as as shamans. So that's just very much very much a a thing. It's only been since, you know, since Christianity that that that that queer person as synonymous with holy person became something other than what it truly is. And I and just to say that one of the reasons why I think everyone's going after trans right now is because the because they are they are they are the beings with the answers. They are the beings they are the beings who are we we live in a in a right now in a very binary culture.

Good, bad, black, white, us, them, Democrat, Republican. And and here are all these people, nonbinary trans, who are saying, I do not fit in that system that is dying and that and that is dying to itself and that is self cannibalizing. I don't fit in that by virtue of what I am, and they can't stand it. They can't stand that there are these beings who've incarnated to usher in a new new way of being and and a new consciousness. And whether or straight or gay, however you identify, we all are a little bit of all.

And I think and I think that's such a threat. So so, yeah, shamanism and queer are are very, very connected.

We all are a little bit of all. I was gonna ask you, does does two spirit ness exist on a spectrum? Because we're talking about queer people, but and and I'm wondering I have to imagine some people that are queer have greater or lesser access to it for what any number of reasons but I wanna hear from you if that's am I right about that?

They so you know, I mean, I've never done this but you know how people go Instagram and they look at shirtless selfies, you know, and the guy's looking very pleased with himself? What's he actually doing right now? He's actually he might have the the most macho body in the world. He's actually in his feminine. He's being seen.

The light of attention is being shined on him. So, like like, even if you went with the most heterosexual version of that, yes, of course, there's there are masculine and feminine polarities. This can go into sexual activity, but it it it need not. It's just a matter of, am I shining my light of attention on you? In which case, I'm in my masculine.

You know? Or is are you shining your light of attention on me? In which case, I'm in my feminine. It it it goes back and forth. So we all have that.

And Jung talked about the animus and the anima, which are two the two versions of or the two aspects of self, one masculine, one feminine. Traditionally, those are things like, you know, aggression or directionality. Those tend to be masculine and nurturance or compassion. Those tend to be feminine. A little stereotypical, but, you know, you get the idea.

But, yes, we're we're we're everything. When we get too reductive about anything, we get away from the truth. When

we get too reductive about anything, we get away from the truth. And I love thinking about that. I love thinking about something you said previously about one of the purposes of shamanism is to remove the obscurities so that we can better see ourselves. So I'm curious now about some of these personal beliefs that sometimes people hold. You talked about that Instagram example, right?

Like I'm sure that model has very specific personal beliefs. Probably not considering that they're in their feminine at that point, right? But that is something that we could say. So I'm just curious about how important are our personal beliefs in creating our reality and in helping us to remove some of those obscurities?

Well, beliefs are beliefs are everything. Beliefs are there there's there's not one there's not a single reality. There's a single consciousness, but there's not a single reality. And our beliefs enter us into different realities. And in different realities, different rules exist in those realities.

So for instance, if I have a real if I if I believe that the forest will speak to me and give me a message about some question that I have on my heart when I take a walk in the forest, either through a symbol or a message on the wind or through the way in which the the tree is is is rustling in some way or in some way, if I if I enter into a reality where the forest is is communicative, that forest will start talking because I'm in that reality. If I I am not in that reality, it's a walk in the forest. And so so we're we're always inside other realities. I had to enter a reality where I where I can now live on Maui. You know?

And as I was in the process of entering that reality, there are all kinds of YouTube videos that say living on Maui is impossible and too expensive and it's and all that. And I didn't watch those because I wanted to create a belief in me that was about that was congruent with my living on Maui. So beliefs are beliefs are everything. And and the problem is that that our beliefs are a lot of times handed to us by the culture, by the family culture, by the culture culture, by by school, by by whatever. And they are not necessarily the beliefs that are actually gonna get us where we wanna go.

And so that's always something that we have to, in healing work, examine. What am I believing about myself? What am I believing about the world? And and, also, what is a firmly ingrained belief will manifest in the outside world. So we all have a belief that green light means go.

That is in there, lodged in the unconscious, green light means go. And the outside world reflects green light means go. There is a belief inside me that I am a spiritual teacher. It is an ingrained belief, and I have a lot of evidence to prove it. The outside world reflects back that Jonathan's a spiritual teacher.

So what we are and we have to work on our beliefs if we if we don't believe them yet. That's part of it. That's a that's part of the healing process. It's part of a manifestation process. But but the idea of of even the idea of I have an imagined belief.

I don't believe it yet, but I have an imagined belief of where I wanna go. And I give clout and legitimacy and attention and focus to my imagined belief so that I can get my unconscious mind to buy the idea that this is something that I want to actually make real. And over a period of time, the more that we do that and the more that we stay in the process of creating a new belief, when that takes hold, it will manifest in the outside world. That's that's the essence of magic.

So what I'm hearing is the world is what we think it is.

The world is what we think it is. Yeah.

Yeah. So What what a segue. Right? Like right. And I full disclosure for our listeners, I have read Jonathan's book, The Shaman's Mind.

It has had a very big impact on me and the way that I practice and the way that I facilitate and the way that I see the world or the way and and what you were talking about, the way that I practice approaching my life and the world. So some of these beliefs that I'm trying to change, I'm still practicing back Sure. Through journaling or affirmations or any number of things. So am I right in saying that that is one of the seven principles?

Yeah. That's the first principle of. It comes from a Hawaiian word called ike, and the the esoteric translation is the world is or the world becomes or reality becomes what we think it what what we think it is. And so that means you've heard as within, so without, as below, so above, the idea being that what is what is inside of us, what is our inner world is just an inward dream, and the outward dream is a reflection of our inward dream. So an easy way to think of it, like, from dream interpretation is that, like, you know, if you have a dream, the easiest way to think of dream interpretation is that whatever's happening in the dream, whatever characters, whatever whatever symbols, whatever that everything in that dream is is reflective of something about the dreamer.

And so the idea being that our our waking dream, our lives, whatever's in there, the good, bad, and the ugly, is reflective of the inward dream that created it out of which it came. So that's what the so the world is what the the world becomes, what I what what it is what I hold inwardly. And that's why it's really important to pay attention to what you're paying attention to because because, essentially, whatever it is that you're whatever it is that you're creating inwardly will, over time, manifest in the outside world and to pay attention to what's going on in the outside world. And if there's something in the outside world that you don't like, there's something in you that says that thing that you don't like is okay.

So and and part of that practice, you know, you mentioned identifying limiting beliefs and affirmations and things like that, but it also sounds like being mindful about what you consume visually, mentally, not just not just what we eat, but what what images am I allowing myself to see? What movies will I watch? You know, things like that. Is that part of creating creating the inner story from which we wanna birth our outer experience?

Absolutely. I mean, it it but I'm not I'm not gonna lend my attention to something that is fortifying a belief that I'm trying to get rid of. You know? It's just like like, even when we get all reactive to the clickbait politically, you know, we get all reactive and all that. What's actually happening?

I'm reactive to it because I'm a loving person, and I care about things, and I care about the planet. Well, that means that the clickbait is getting my love. And I don't want the clickbait to get my love, and so I turn it off. You know, I turn it off, and I focus on creating the world that I want. And and so that's going on, but but I'm doing whatever I can to not participate in it and to get its stench off me as much as I possibly can.

So I don't go into I you know, I don't I don't follow every outrage. I know what they are because they're in the consciousness and we you know? Because that's not the world that I'm creating. Don't ask me why I know this. I just do.

I I really believe that at this time on the planet, if you think of the planet as growing its own consciousness, and if you think of, like, the first three billion years on the planet, this was not a cute place to live. This was a place of sulfuric gases and, you know, uninhabitable. And so the planet has been evolving toward life for billions of years where there is life, where there is consciousness, which means that the planet's consciousness has been evolving too. And I believe that we are in a place where the planet's consciousness does not really want to hold things like racism and homophobia anymore. Like, it's these these are dead energies.

They're they're at one point, they were maybe useful as the planet was understanding itself, but I really feel like we're in a place where the the planet is not interested in holding those energies. They're no they're no longer evolutionarily beneficial for it. We've done that.

They don't produce a cute place to live.

They don't produce a cute place to live. So I just kinda I I and so I just feel like they're alive in the people that have a vested financial interest in keeping them alive, but I do not think that they are actual energies that the planet is really interested in anymore. I think the planet is continuing to evolve. And I think when we talk in the spiritual circles about, you know, the new consciousness or even the new Earth, you know, we're talking about stepping away from something that is not life affirming. And if we know anything about the Earth, is that it it is relentless in its pursuance of life and relentlessly not interested in that which isn't.

And so we that's that's the that's the direction that the planet is always going. So this stuff is this this stuff is kinda dying out. Even though it seems like it's in power, it's dying out.

So this is a new concept for me. This this idea that, like, the planet, the Earth has its own, like, consciousness. And so I think now if I'm I'm I'm just gonna, use my my words and, like, kind of put some pieces together. So could that potentially what we mean by saying the planet has a spirit? Sure.

Right? And then we have spirits. There are other things in this world that have spirits. And so, like, how is all of that kind of connected and kind of, like, interwoven together?

Alright. We're going very cosmological. But okay. But if if you think about it this way, so you have a consciousness, and you are an earth being. You were born out of the earth.

You are made of the same biological and physiological material of the earth. There is no way that that which birthed you has something different than than what you have. And so and so you are just an individual aperture through which that consciousness reveals itself, but that consciousness is always in place. Another way to think of it is that the Earth is kind of a single body, and there's something called the the the Gaia theory. A NASA scientist from 1979 came up with this idea that the Earth behaves like a single self regulating system like the human body.

And that everything on the earth, every being on earth, every microbe on earth, every human on earth is is essentially a a cell or an atom of that one single body. And and so that so so it's that. It's that we're we're connected to an individual consciousness that is connected to the big consciousness. And but they all but they all come from the same place. In terms of spirit, so, if you think of the the dandelion underneath has the instructions to be the dandelion, and it grows into being dandelion.

And then the outer world provides it with sunlight and air and, and the conditions for dandelion to happen. So the so it's kind of like there's the the dandelion, the underlying instructions of the dandelion, and the angel hovering over the dandelion saying, let me give you what you need to grow. And so that's our spirit. That's our spirit. So so when we are taking actions toward growth, the spirits are the spirits are all over that because that's what they're there for.

That's what they're there for to to to help to help us get where it is that we're going. So and the and the the instinctive impulse to grow is is something deep within us. So there's something deep within us and something outside of us that align and and create us.

The Gaia theory has always had such a big impact on my life, and it it's the thing that I think about in any number of ways when I think about taking too much, like like destroying a an environment of some sort for resources and just sort of devastating it because I think, oh, it's a little bit like scratching my own body, like ripping off a scab, like doing creating damage in me. And so for me, I've always been programmed to think of it as an organism and where balance is needed. I'm gonna just digress, though, because there is the Captain Planet and the Planeteers, which I think I have talked about one other time on podcast. I don't remember. It it you know, it had five five kids, children, I guess teenagers, one from each continent.

They each had a power. Earth, fire, wind, water, and heart. And then Gaia was this magical sort of, like like, angelic woman who was there helping and guiding. And two things about that that I think were so important is they they created an image of the spirit of the earth that was talking to these characters and expressing these needs. Thing number two was that one of the powers in order for the five to combine to make Captain Planet, this ecological superhero, was heart.

Yeah. I didn't like, I look back on it now and think, oh, I was getting I was getting a teaching through this through this cartoon and and a beautiful one, really. A beautiful one. And one of the abilities that heart had was that he could communicate with animals. I remember thinking, until that episode, I was like, I wonder what Hart does.

They didn't know, he wasn't like a big player in it. And then I was like, oh, that. And it feels like this spirit connectedness.

Yeah. Well, you you just said something very indigenous mind, Tim. And that is, you know, the Native Americans have this idea of the long body. And the long body is essentially that the that the earth that the earth itself is an extension of one's own body. And so that means that ecological flourishing is self flourishing, and ecological preservation is self preservation.

And and so there and so it's this idea of of everything as an extension of self. And that is the the ecotherapist call that the ecological self, meaning meaning that that I'm I'm connected to the all as one, you know, that that it is a part of me. So that's a that's a really rich idea, and and in it is a one adopted it and by the way, it's also the the ecological self or the long body would be synonymous with Christ consciousness, you know, that unitive consciousness of love with all, Buddha consciousness, that unitive consciousness of love with all. It's just another it's just another it's more of an indigenous way in. But, yeah, that's the idea that that that everything is a part of us.

When we think of nature, nature is not a background for our human drama. Nature is is we are in in a a lived relationship with it. We've forgotten that because we we don't rely on nature. We don't think we do. We don't rely on nature in the same way that that indigenous cultures did.

But when you don't know where your next meal is coming from or where the weather really is a matter of life and death, You are working in conversation with your environment. And and that's what we've gotten so far away from. And and that's why that's why and that's why the planet is sick, you know, is because we think of it as this sort of dead thing that isn't just a storehouse of resources for us. And and that's the part that that that really that we really have to change. It doesn't mean that we all have to wear grass skirts and and, you know, and live in log cabins and go off grid and all of that.

I think that there technology is here for a reason, But I think but we do need to return to a reenchantment with the natural world and and a a different kind of relationship with the natural world as us.

I can imagine that if my reality is not that I have such a deep reliance or a perceived reliance on the earth, it is really challenging to imagine it as its own being and as something that is an extension of myself and something that I should bring love and care and attention to. I can imagine that being very challenging because I've been in that. There are times that I am in that because I live in the little bubble that is my life. It is sometimes really challenging to see outside of that, to be like, oh, that package that I got on Amazon, like, the consequences that that has. Right?

Like, the environmental consequences that that whole life cycle could have. Because I'm not considering, right, something bigger than myself. I'm not considering the planet as a being. And so but the the the interesting thing about Captain America in that example

is it gives Captain Planet. Yeah. Captain Planet. Captain Captain America is also excellent, but very different.

Captain Planet is that it helps by giving a visual to it. It helps spark my imagination. Right? It helps make it a little bit more real. So I'm curious now how the power of imagination plays into all of this work.

Well, if you think of, I mean, imagination is the bridge to everything. Imagination is the bridge imagination is the bridge to the force that gives you the message. Imagination is the bridge to the idea that that spirits are around me, and I wanna connect with them. Imagination is imagination is the key to I wanna become a successful podcaster, but I'm not right now. You know?

And so I imagine that into being. So it's it's really important. When you think of these big ideas like unitive consciousness or the illusion of separation, you know, we can't understand that with our with our our mind. We can maybe if we're lucky enough to have a nondual experience and and touch it for two minutes and know that it's there. But but imagination is really about taking some of these these esoteric truths and going, what if there is one consciousness of which I'm a part?

What if I am I am a single atom in a in a single organism? And that if I were, that means that I would want my atom or my cell to be the most healthy that it can possibly be. You know, the the most glowing with with health and life that it can possibly be. So so these kind of so imagination is is really it it's really the key to everything. And I think that we're we're a little cynical.

I think that we're we're a little cynical, I think, because the Western materialist model, which is not the whole story, and I I I don't care what they say. It is not the whole story. But that model reduces it's reductive. It reduces everything, and it lee it does not leave room for for myth, for imagination, for for the unknown, for for so many things. And and and that's the reason why it's not that's the reason why it it's not a it the the original peoples did not just rely on it because it it it doesn't it doesn't tell the the whole story.

When when there are times when we make a choice based on a knowing with no empirical data and it turns out that we're right. What is that process? It can't be measured. It can't be explained. It it it can't be reduced to some process.

It's just a knowing. And that is a sophisticated framework to to to include in how we live our lives, an important one.

So right now we're having this conversation amongst three people who are we we all sort of swim in this material and and really love it. And I'm just imagining for someone listening, right now we are in a new administration. Our queer community is under attack. Rights are being lost and lawsuits are being filed and all number of things are happening. A lot of possible challenge is ahead of us.

And I guess my question is how can shamanism or shamanic practice or maybe specifically Hunas shamanism and Hunas shamanic practice or anything else? How can we utilize this as a tool in this moment to help us navigate it in a healthy way both individually and as a community? What what what can shamanism do for us? How can we collaborate with it?

So there's a there's a Mayan prophecy, which you probably heard of, the 2012 prophecy. And the idea behind the the 2012 prophecy was about that in 2012, it would be the end of a twenty six thousand year cycle where, the beginning of two earths would would would form. Now they didn't just mean two separate earths. It's a metaphor. But, but it meant two distinctly different consciousnesses that were so different.

They were almost like two planets. And from 2012 onward, there would be this split, this split, this split away from away from each other. And so and so if if we can attune to and create the one and and focus on the one that we want to create because the the the old one is the old one is dying out. The old one the old one is is is loaded with shadow, and it's acting out its shadow. And when you act out your shadow, you are actually curating unconsciously your own demise.

That is happening. It might not happen in our lifetimes. Probably will. You know? Although I do think this administration, I think we we will see its demise, I think, relatively soon.

But but that is not that is not lasting. It's not gonna it's not gonna hold, but there is this new way. And so it's about it's about that we have to have to because everyone and everyone's there's this mass exodus from that reality. It's now been exposed in its grotesqueness. And so there's this mass exodus away from it and the sense of I've been relying on this thing that hates me, and I've been relying on this thing that just wants me to send my money up, you know, and all that.

And so so a lot of people are doing whatever they can to leave it. And the new Earth, it does have less to grab onto because it's new. But the idea is is that I'm that I we all have to enlist our creativity right now, you know, to to create something else. And then when we do that, and certainly us as light workers or as us as as spiritual thought leaders, as we do that, we give other people who wanna leave that something to emulate. And so it's that.

Now this goes beyond laws. This goes beyond, you know, the the being in the muck of policy and all of that. You know? All of which is important. All of which is important.

But in terms of consciousness, it's about I'm gonna focus on what I want and not what I don't want. I'm gonna focus on what I prefer and not what I don't prefer. And I'm and and that gets my love. That gets my creativity. That gets my that gets my energy.

That gets my juice.

It sounds like you're also talking about a practice of creativity. And I know because I know you well enough that doesn't have to be a painting or a song or a dance, but but it does feel like a foundational component to what you're discussing, which is we we sounds like we have to find our version or our versions of how we are creative and and birth that into the world as part of this process. Am I hearing you right?

Right. That's right. And even and it it's really as simple as if you think of that side so humans can create toxic realities. They have the they they can do that. But the spirits, the the, the spirits that hover around the planet and are ecstatic to help, they are not invested in toxic realities.

That's not what they're there for, which is the reason why that thing feels so godless and so devoid of spirit. So when you talk about creating something new that is for the collective, where I lend my heart, my spirit, my my my juice, you know, for for something that is life affirming and growthful and loving, That that is the spiritual path because that's what the spirits support us in. And so what we have to buy the idea that that that that our own our own yearning toward life is a spiritually aligned one. Mhmm. And because that's because that's what they're that's what that's what they're there for.

That's how that's why they would help us to begin with. So, yes, it it's a practice, and it's it's really about it's a discipline. You know? What I've just described, focus on what you want and not what you don't want. That's called five d consciousness, which is really a shamanic idea.

It's more of a new age idea. The idea being that three d is this world, good, bad, black, white. You know? The three is and the eye that sees it. That's the three.

Polarity and the eye that sees it. Four is it exists in time. Five is I'm outside of it. I see that. I'm letting it play out.

Go kill yourselves. I'm going over here.

Yeah. The the awareness of that. Right? Like, I like, the the ability to to kind of pause, see that all of this is happening, be aware of it, be in on the joke, right? Be in on the drama, right?

And then say, okay, I'm gonna zoom out. And I'm going to choose and now start to, through my manifestations, my co creations, my imaginations, start to do some work on the reality that I wanna create and bringing in the beliefs that I wanna see. And start to build that out and living my fullest authenticity, which I heard you say is potentially the definition of purpose.

Yeah. And I I do think it's important to say there are people who are caught in the crosshairs. There are people who are not as privileged as us to even have this conversation and even entertain the idea that we would try. Mhmm. You know?

And so and so I just wanna say that. But all I can do, all any of us can do is what we can do, you know, individually. I have clients who rub elbows with policymakers. You know? And and I have clients who are firmly ensconced in ensconced in corporate.

You know? And they're going into the Death Star every day, dressed as a stormtrooper with, you know, with earth wisdom flowers underneath the you know? Right. You know, underneath their so so it's like it's like it's important to say that too. If you are lucky enough, if if for whatever reason your karma is such that you have a choice to to choose what you can focus on and you still have the freedom to do it, then then you gotta do it.

Mhmm. You know? Then then you gotta do it. But I also wanna I wanna and you do it for the people that can't. You know?

Because that's that's the the most that we can do. And then, overall, the pervasive energy becomes such that that that that they find that we our current is stronger.

I really love bringing that awareness that recognizing that we do have privilege here to focus on these ideas and to take these actions and that there are other people who are in different situations and honoring that. Part of what I feel like I'm hearing you say is we should all do what we can to the best of our ability and recognize that that that amount that we can do might be different, and it might also change.

I always say, like, beginning my classes, said this class is bullshit if there isn't freedom to practice what what I'm teaching. This is bullshit. It's just, you know, it's just masturbatory. You know? If there if it's not under the umbrella of freedom, you know, and and the and so when people's freedom or the or beings beings, animals, or plants' freedom is mitigated in some way, it it it it changes things.

So if if we are lucky enough to, you know, to have that to have that privilege, we we gotta use it.

So I wanna bring this up. Clearly, we're not gonna get an opportunity to talk about each of the seven principles in this one episode, but I'd like to bring up one more principle if I remember it correctly because it feels like it's important with regards to the practice of creativity. But also, I'd love it in context of what we just said, which is there are no limits. So can you talk about, like, how we need to think about that principle in our practice of creativity, and simultaneously, how does it honor what we just described, which is some people have greater resource or greater entitlement or greater privilege than others?

So, yeah, that's a that's a second principle. It's a Hawaiian word called kala, and the translation is there are no limits. When when my teacher, Serge King, retranslated these, he was coming up in the eighties. And so I think there are no limits has this kind of Tony Robbins, like, you can do any you know, like, sort of thing. So I think I think a better way to think of it is that there is no separation, that there is no that I think that that's, you know, which is epitomized in nature, which is epitomized in the natural world.

And it is also saying that that if there is no separation, that the you that you wanna become exists already, not separate from you. You just have to claim it. And the earth that we want to create exists, exists next to the earth that isn't that yet because there aren't there is no separation. When you think of, like, you know, when we call in the directions, east, west, south, north, above, and below, what are we doing? We're calling in everything.

We're calling in everything. All the things that we don't know that we need, you know, we're calling in the unknown unknowns, all the things that that co conspire or would co conspire if we had an intention toward life or growth or creation. And so the idea being that there's no separation is that I'm not separate from the very things that will bring me more life. That's what there are no limits means.

And that sounds to me like an idea that is available to everyone. Meaning, when we talked about privilege and resources, that is a like, we each person can have that idea and practice with that idea regardless of the circumstances in which they are living.

This is very spooky, but, like like, you know, I have I I always burn a couple black candles on my altar, and the black candles represent to me the unknown unknowns. Meaning, the dynamics that I am not aware of that are playing out behind the scenes and that are in support of my life. And I am inviting them in because I'm just a little pea brain that wants what I want, but I have a whole universe at my disposal to bring me what I want. And, and I'm inviting I'm lighting a candle for all of that even though I I don't I don't know what it is. You know that thing of of I I'm really sure I wanna create something, and you the the thing lands the the flyer lands on your windshield, or you get the mistaken email, and it's the person that you were supposed to meet or, you know, all of that.

That's the unknown unknowns that that we attract through our self love.

I mean, I have to tell this story, as we've because, you know, my Jeeva Mukti yoga teacher training was a month long away at Omega. And with the tuition and room and board and the books, it cost about I told you the story. It cost about $10,000, and I somehow randomly got hired by Disney to do a gay pride, like, research project that paid me exactly that amount.

Right.

I I wasn't really qualified for this. I just did a bunch of Google searching and created a Word document. And I look back on it now and that was one of those things. I didn't I didn't know it was coming, but it was in service to this, you know. And that yoga training has changed my life forever.

That's right.

Is it is like I I wouldn't say it's the absolute beginning because I've always believed dance was my first spiritual teacher, but it was the first declared spiritual practice into which I was stepping. Were you lighting a

black candle at that time?

I I wasn't, but I I I wasn't not.

But let me say this. I think I think there's important thing to to say here that you're organizing that as a belief in a synchronicity that got you where you wanna go. Someone else, more cynical or more materialist, would go, you got lucky. You know? But and so I think but but your belief enters you into a enters you into a co creative a cocreative relationship with your life, with your purpose, with the world, with money, and so it's a better belief.

You know? And so the idea that you're you're telling it as something that is about that is deepening your own belief in the unknown unknowns, you know, is is really is really helpful. It's it's a subtle distinction, but it's an important one.

But it also feels as if we can then recognize if someone wants or chooses to be cynical, then then that is gonna be their truth. If someone wants to believe that that synchronicities don't exist and that was, luck, then then that's so it really then becomes about us being mindful about our our experience and our beliefs because a person talking to us can reflect their their own experience, and there's not a lot I can do about that.

You know, I work with a lot of women in their thirties from New York. You know? And, of a certain culture, I won't say which one, but a certain culture, there's this thing around if you're 35 and you have not found the guy yet, you're in trouble. You're in trouble and, like and you probably won't. And so they're all walking around at thirty five or thirty six with this belief that it's now too late for me.

That is sending a message to the energies of the universe that that's what I have to work with. They're not even looking for it because it's no longer a possibility. So the spirits would do something like, I could stick the guy next to you on your on the subway, but until you have a belief that have your eyes open to find that guy, What it's it's a useless effort, so I'll just wait until you work on your belief. Because I I I can't there there you you're you're operating in a framework where what I would could could bring you, you're not looking for. You don't believe you can have.

It also feels like the the most powerful teaching any person practicing these ideas can bring is leadership through example. So rather than me trying to explain to you why you should believe something different, I should just live my life with my beliefs and let that speak for itself.

I love that.

Great. And yeah, I mean, like I'm in this chair because of that. Right? Because there is a man next to me that is doing that, that is living his truth. And the impact that it has, it has brought me to this chair.

It has brought countless men to our circle, thousands of listeners now to this podcast. And it really is like a very real tangible example. And so thank you for living that and inspiring me to also live in myself and be with myself because all of this work is it's really challenging. It was challenging for me to imagine. It was challenging for me to believe with decades of cynicism, with a deep mistrust for myself, for the world.

Right? And it comes down to like, I've had to do healing. I've had to heal so much of myself and the work continues on and on and on again. And it is thanks to men like like Tim, our teacher Amir, people like yourself that are helping to lead by example that help me to see, like, oh, I can too also do my own healing.

Well, this is the importance of of men's work or in yoga sangha community, this support system. I would like to so you thanked me, and and thank you so much for that acknowledgment. And I'd like to acknowledge Jonathan as one of the people in my life who has gifted me with the ongoing conversation because I think it's important to remember if you choose to do this, you will need to be reminded. There will be moments just like I I always equate it to the gym. Sometimes you go to the gym and you feel pumped and sexy and strong.

And other days you go to the gym and it just it's like, ugh. It didn't it didn't quite. But that day at the gym still needed and, you know, it was important. And sometimes having that person come to the gym with me again. Let's do this that that reminder that reminder.

So I feel unbelievably grateful. So appreciative, happy, and grateful for all of the people who have come into my life. I I believe in synchronicities, so I don't think it's a coincidence that Jonathan has been my friend for two decades and that our relationship went from Broadway Performers to a slow evolution and this ongoing spiritual con conversation. And the same is true for every teacher that has meant anything to me. It does not surprise me that Amir Khaligi is in my life right now, that I met him through a man when he gave a talk on Instagram about the archetypes.

You know, like, was like, oh, I wanna hear about I forget. I think it was the warrior they were talking about, but I'm like and that's how it started. So deep, deep, deep, deep appreciation and gratitude for all the teachers and all the reminders and all of the community because it is important, and it's why we do men's work. It isn't just about coming into a room so that because we can do it all at the same time. It's about, oh, so then I can be seen and held, and I can see, and I can hear, and we can support each other on this journey.

Thank you. Can I tell you a story?

Please.

I was about 25. I was in Sedona, and I was I was at the time of my life where I go to Sedona and sit on the mountain and cry and not know why I'm there and, you know, like, just trying to figure out what it what what it all means. And and I had this moment on the mountain where I kinda had a unitive moment where I, like, I knew that it knew that I knew that it was there. You know? It was like like one of those, like you know?

And and as I and I was like, I I found it. I found something. I know that it's there. I know the spiritual stuff is real. And I start walking down the mountain, as I start walking down, I start getting neurotic.

Because I know that I'm gonna go home to New York City, and I'm gonna forget what I learned on that mountain. So I get to my hotel room. I call up a hypnotist. I literally look up a hypnotist with all these healers in Sedona. And I say and and I say, can I come have a a session with you?

And my intention was that I wanted her to hypnotize that experience into my unconscious mind. So I remembered forever what I saw on that mountain. So I go to this woman's house, and I tell her everything I just told you. And I say, so I want you to, you know, I want you to do that. She's sitting across me listening to me.

She's got a yellow legal pad. And and she starts writing, like, almost like a picture on it. And I don't you know, and she's she's not letting me see it. And she holds it over her chest, and she says, so what you're asking me to do, I can't do. And she said, you know, this session is a hundred and $50.

And I said, yeah. Okay. Here's a hundred $50. And she turned over to LegalPad, and what she'd written on the LegalPad in big lock letters block letters was choose again. Those two words.

Choose again. And she said, whatever you forget what you learned on your mountain, you have to do this. And, like, that is the reason why it's spiritual practice. That is the reason why we have to choose it again. That is the reason why we all have a crisis of faith all the time.

That is why living a spiritual life is about confronting all the times when we're not living a spiritual life. That's the work.

That I mean but the the thing I love about that the most is then it takes away this idea that to be spiritual is to always have, like, white flowy garments on and, like, the most gentle breeze so that it looks you know? And it brings it to the real world. It's gonna be tricky at times. You're gonna feel lonely at times. You're gonna you're gonna doubt that it's working at times, and you choose again, and that's the practice.

And then And also and if you think of men's work, men the crux of men's work is the recognition that men have pain and that I'm not trying to hide it. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to drink it away. I'm not trying to fuck it away. I'm not trying to you know? That I have pain.

You know? And it's not that I'm but without that acknowledgment, without that and I'm not supposed to have pain because I'm a man. Or I'm not supposed to have pain because I'm a sexy gay man, you know, or whatever else. But that but because we pull away from that, and so that's why it really is about a kind of courageous honesty, you know, to say to say, I'm actually I want this, but I'm blocked to it. That that that I wanna feel a certain way about my myself, but I can't or whatever else.

And that acknowledgment is is not weak. That is the courageous act that gets you to learn something new about yourself.

I am a little sponge right now, and I'm just going to let you all in that my sponginess has absorbed about as much as it can absorb. I am at capacity. And I don't know that because it's been so good. This has been such a good conversation. I am so blessed.

I am so thankful. I am so grateful to have been part of this and to have learned so much in such a short bit of time. I am so ready to choose again my spiritual practices over and over and over again. So with that, we covered a lot of ground today. We introduced our listeners to shamanism.

We gave them a little sneak peek of Kuna Shamanism. I think that it merits a second episode if we can schedule it to do a deeper dive into it. We covered

We got two of the two of the seven principles. So if there is am I right? There are seven, right? Yep. Two of the seven?

So sounds like we could at some point come back and cover the others. They're all so powerful. Yeah.

We covered spirit. We covered two spirit. We covered collective consciousness. We covered imagination, magic, the power of manifestation. We covered a lot.

Yeah, we did. And so I just have one final question, Jonathan. What is the one thing that we could all do right now to make the biggest impact on ourselves, on the world?

Feel your feelings. Stop avoiding. Love yourself and want. Allow yourself to want.

Okay to want. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. With that, I'm feeling very complete, Tim.

I feel complete. Jonathan?

Aloha. Good to see you guys.

Excellent. Tim, will you take us out, please?

I will. Let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale through the nose. Gentle exhale through the mouth. And it's with deep appreciation and gratitude for the shared sacred space, for any insights, awarenesses, discoveries that were made.

That as we leave this circle, I wish everyone listening connection, brotherhood, safety, and love. And with these words, container is open but not broken. Uh-huh. Uh-huh.