Remembering to Pretend: Why Imagination Might Be the Most Important Grown-Up Thing You’ve Forgotten

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you're enjoying the show, please be sure to share your favorite episode, leave us a review, and subscribe. And if you have a question about anything you've heard us talk about, send us a message. We'd love to hear from you. Now onto the show.

When we were boys, imagination was everything. A stick became a sword, a pile of pillows, a fort, and we created entire worlds in our backyards. But something happened along the way. We were told to put it away, to grow up, to be productive, to be serious. What happened to our imaginations?

And more importantly, what would happen if we brought it back? Tim, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready. Let's do this. Let's do it.

So, Tim, you led this week's sharing circle and embodiment circle with the theme of imagination. So could you tell us a little bit about the intention behind these offerings and some of the insights or nuggets that came up during practice?

Absolutely. Over the last few months in particular, I've been really working with, positive self talk, affirmations, versions of manifestation in one way or another. And, you know, there's a lot of attention paid to conscious language, choosing carefully what we say, choosing carefully what we do, being mindful of what we consume, not just, you know, with food, but through our eyes and through our ears and, you know, all this stuff. And it started to become clear the the power of our thoughts, the power of our thinking. And a lot of the manifestation requires us to get clear about what it is we want and then to and then to visualize it and and really think about it and feel about it with a lot of detail.

And I started to realize, well, that requires imagination. I have to imagine my life, whether it's a year from now, five years from now, ten years from now, or even later today. I have to be able to imagine that in order for me to engage in some of these processes. And so it started to occur to me that imagination, which at some point felt like it was for children and needed to be put away as we became adults, is an essential ingredient in doing what now to me is important spiritual personal growth work. If I'm trying to create the life of my dreams, then I have to understand what my dreams are.

I have to be able to imagine what it would look like and feel like, how it would taste, how it would sound, all of those things. And my understanding is that the more the more connected we are to the feelings around it, the more powerful it can be, and we need imagination to do that. And I thought, let's talk about it because I know a lot of people have had their imaginations squashed because it is for children. And I wanted to know about the impact that that had.

Yeah. Thank you for telling us about the intention behind the circles. Yeah. The power of realizing where I'm at today and where I want to be requires a map in a way. Right?

You gotta have a bridge to get there. And the bridge is created by being able to see the destination or at least the path along the way. And sometimes we're not so certain about that and being able to use our imagination to start to create the picture through different senses. I love that it wasn't just a visual. It was like, how does it feel?

How does it smell? How does it taste? Like, it's really kind of like bringing on all of our senses to make our imaginations come alive to then be able to create that destination that we're going towards.

And I think it's important for us to consider imagination, you know, existing along a spectrum. Right? So so I think it can be really easy to put imagination into a box if it is make believe, if if it's fantasy. You know? But if we think about the opposite of imagination, we can think about very rigid thinking.

So so for example, being able to tap into our imagination might allow us to consider perspectives in, let's say, an interaction with another person we that we might describe as an argument. To consider perspectives other than our own, to me feels like an exercise in the same slice as imagination. Can I imagine a totally different perspective on this? And if so, what can that mean? And we've all been there.

Right? Where something happens, and if I'm just attached to this is how it happened because this was my perspective and my point of view, then you have a really rigid, unbending dynamic that will often then start to crumble or, you know, create chaos. If I can imagine a variety of other scenarios this person might be feeling, thinking, or or behaving from, maybe I soften. Maybe I have greater compassion. Maybe and then in that practice, maybe I'm less tortured by whatever the thing is.

If I'm certain you were just being a creep and I and I'm incapable of imagining anything else, think about what that really robs me of. A lot of inner peace, a lot of possibility.

I mean, the old adage, walk a mile in somebody's shoes. That is an exercise in empathy. In order to fully embody that experience, we've got to use our imaginations. We've got to really imagine what it's like to be that person.

Did I ever share the story of my friend Josh in the soda?

I don't think so. I'm gonna

Are sure? I'm gonna share it right now. It's connected to this, to a yogic teaching about, the yogic teaching on emptiness and, you know, how our perceptions Anyway, so I was I was on a field trip, a school trip, with my friend Josh, and he was his family didn't have a lot of resources. And so I knew that certain things, you know, mattered. And this was the time by the way, this is funny.

This is the time when we would all take sips of each other others' sodas. Mhmm. Do you remember that? Mhmm. Like a thing I would probably never do now.

But I'm like, you know so anyway, we're on the bus, and he he had a soda, and I said, oh, can I have a sip? And he said, yes. So he handed me a soda, which was probably more than probably had, like, one third left. Right? And I felt that.

And I said, okay. Well, I understand what this soda means for him, so I'm gonna be really mindful. So I put the can to my mouth, and I start slowly tipping it so as to not take too much of his soda. And he is watching me, and he sees me taking you know, and I probably forgetting the volume in the can or whatever, thinking I'm taking a super long sip and taking a lot of his a lot of it, you know, so that he he's like, hey. Don't take so much.

And he grabbed it out of my hand, and I didn't actually get any soda at all, you know, which which was totally fine. But it's a good example of can we imagine? Because in that moment, I felt a little bit like, hey. You said I could have a sip. You know?

And then I had to put myself in his shoes. I had to be able to imagine what it was he was seeing and recognize that that was different than what what it was I was seeing or how it is I was being. And there's real power in that because then he's not the creep that didn't let me have a sip of a soda. He's the person concerned for a resource that is precious to him, and I can bring more heart to it.

Yeah. That's a great example. Do you do you recall, like, how

It was a Doctor Pepper. Doctor

Pepper. Hold. Hold. Is that is chair.

No. I know that chair, but is that a thing?

Thirsty Thirsty Burlington makes it a thing with chair. I'm not sure if it's an actual chairism or a thirsty Burlington doing chairism. Okay. Well But she'll be like, where's my Doctor Pepper? And it's great.

Make you thirsty. I So and and that's if you can imagine.

So if you can imagine, there's his drag queen, just an incredible Cher impersonation Cher has even said to himself.

Arguably one of the best

Cher has said she does Cher better than she does. Really? Yeah. Oh, hey. Cher has specifically said that about her.

Oh. Oh, that's amazing. Well,

now well, now.

Now. Now. Mean Second best. Yeah. Yeah.

Cher Cher if you're listening.

Cher and Thirsty. Yeah. We're gonna tag

them both. Okay. Sorry. Sorry.

Keep going. And Doctor Pepper. Okay. Keep going. Keep going.

Imagination, everybody. Let's imagine we're actually having a real conversation.

We're imagining that we have incredible sponsors on this show, including Doctor Pepper, Cher, and Thirsty Burlington, but also, like, everyone should sponsor Thirsty and go see her shows. So I wanted to ask about how did you and John? Josh. Josh. How did you and Josh engage after that?

So he takes away the soda. Mhmm. You are able to bring your empathy online and say, oh, I can sit with this. But do you remember what you guys talked about afterwards? Did you acknowledge it?

No.

No. No. We were in middle school and I was I was, like, a sensitive, mildly introspective, like, closeted gay boy. He he wasn't. We had, like, a moment of, like, annoyance with each other, and then I think later we started talking about, you know, middle school boy stuff.

Mhmm. Superheroes or or sports or something. Got it.

So this was you were able to,

like We didn't sit down and, like, have, like, a deep emotion. I I actually love the question. Was like, no. Now Josh and I, like, we're, like, you know, full adults. Like, so what what what came up for you in that moment, Josh?

He was like, want my fucking soda. That's what that's what came up. Yeah.

Yeah. No. I'm just I'm just curious because you were able to, like, have that walk a mile in his shoes moment, and I didn't know if it happened, like, at that moment or this was later on that you were able to have that. So that's where what I'm curious about.

Started okay. I get it. So it started for me, it started shortly thereafter. After I was initially annoyed, I and I didn't go through a a sophisticated process like I might try to now. But I remember thinking, like, I'm really annoyed with him because I was trying to help him.

And I think in my mind then, you know, in the anxious person that I am, I'd, like, sort of replay it over. I'm like, well, I was trying to help him. Was trying to be considerate. What happened? And then I started to go through in my mind what I thought had occurred.

I it is highly possible or even probable that he's never given it a second thought ever again. I mean, I'm that that's the, like, the person I am, but I'm gonna I'm gonna think about these things. I think I told you, there was a bully of mine in well, not really a bully, but he would, like, make fun of me a lot in in middle school.

You can call a bully a bully.

Yeah. Yeah. And and one time I clapped back at him because he was fat. And I still to this day, think about and feel badly

Mhmm.

About what I said to him, even though he without, you know, without thought made fun of me, you know, over and over and over over the course of years, I clapped back at him one time. And even as an adult, I'll sometimes be like, oh, god. That's, like, not, like, not the person that I wanna be. So so with this other example, it is probable that I thought about it more than he did.

But that's the power of the imagination is being able to, like, recreate that moment, whether it's ten seconds later or twenty years later. Right? It's like bringing on the imagination and saying, Okay, I'm gonna recreate this scene in my head and kind of visualize it and try to be in the different characters. Right? And so that starts to, for me, starts to blur a line.

I think the next topic I'd like to talk about is the difference because this came up last night in Circle. The line between no, this was Monday night and the sharing circle. The line between imagination and creativity. So imagination being like, you know, it's in my head and like doing all this, but at the same time, like, I'm creating this story and then also maybe creating something in the world. So I wanna hear your take on the potential difference between those two things.

Well, think there's a lot of overlap. So I would argue that a lot of creativity includes imagination. But it does feel like imagination can often be a first step. And then it feels like the the distinction for me would be creativity feels like a process where I start to do something. Even if I'm visualizing the choreography in my head or I'm I'm, like, roughly writing out the the plot line to the book, whatever the thing is, once we start working in the medium on some level, I think that that is the moment it becomes creativity.

I mean, there's no I don't have any research Mhmm. To to suggest this, but I know that I've done a lot of creative preparation for me as a dancer and choreographer, specifically with choreography where I will listen to music, like, when I lived in New York City, listen to music on the subway and be visualizing the movement. And in that in that moment, I believe I am combining imagination and creativity where but I'm in a process of knowing, oh, I'm headed to rehearsal or I'm doing I'm gonna rehearse this tomorrow, and this is part of that process even if it's only existing in my head. And imagination, I think, can be that same openness of potential and possibility, but not me at times without an endgame or or a, an agenda. So I can imagine I'm a princess.

I can imagine I'm a unicorn. I can imagine I'm a wizard. I can, you know, I can, I can imagine I'm a billionaire? I can imagine I go to space. And that to me feels like it might be in the realm of pure imagination, but there is no I literally don't know what I'm talking about.

An expert could come in and say, no, these have clear definitions and you got it wrong.

No. No. I think that I think that there's Imagination can be seen as the spark or then creativity to make it happen?

Well, think about when we when we think about the way that we live our lives, imagination can be, oh, I imagine myself having a thing. I want that car. I imagine it maybe. But imagination also can you imagine the possibility that you could be happier? And then and then that that process of imagination wouldn't necessarily need to look like anything.

You know what I mean? Or or or it would look unique to each person. But can you imagine your life happier?

Can you imagine having greater fulfillment? And just imagining is just that though. Just imagining. I think then we have to take steps, action towards that imagination. So again, imagination being kind of this spark.

Yeah. This this imprint, this like, oh, I can I can start to see it? I can start to sense it. I can start to feel it. And now bringing in creativity to actually create it, to create that into reality.

But right. And I I hear what you're saying, and I I totally agree. If you can't imagine it, I it feels really unlikely that that you're then going to take any action in pursuit of it. So why is an why is imagination important, I think, for all people right now? Because without it, if you cannot imagine that you could be happier, if you're like, my life is, but this is as good as it's gonna get, then you'll probably hang out there and hope for the best.

And I just said to a client of mine earlier today, I feel like a lot of people live their lives like they're at a craps table. And each day, we roll the dice. And it's like sometimes I get a good roll and sometimes I don't. And these practices and this pursuit and this exploration is intended to give us some tools and some agency. So so, rather than waiting for the the roll of the dice to determine if you have a happy day or not, can you start to imagine yourself happier?

And the more time you spend with that, the clearer the the picture might get. And then from there, action. And then from action, experience. And then from experience, tightening. Because we've also had the moment, or I've had the moment, where I imagine I want something.

And in pursuit of that, I start taking some actions, and then my experience teaches me, and that isn't exactly what I want. But it's now guiding me. Now I have a clearer idea of what I want. And then and, you know, repeat, repeat, repeat.

It's a loop, it's a cycle, it's a flywheel that kind of feeds itself. Like if my imagination is creating the blueprint and then my creativity is manifesting or bringing it into reality, then as I am creating, mean, as I'm in the act of creation, I'm learning and it's informing. And then I get to bring that back into my imagination to adjust and tweak and make whatever adjustments necessary to continue going. And the plan could change, and the imagination could shift it and change it a little bit here and there. You know, I think that's the beauty of it.

Yeah. So I would argue that visualization and the kind of visualization that we hear a lot about with world class athletes in preparation for their events is in the slice of imagination. The difference in like, it's sort of a creative process because it it it is focused and it's in the work, but I have to be able to imagine myself in my event in order for this to work, which we know it does. So I would argue if you practice visualizing, you are working in the realm of imagination.

Yeah. This happened on, the preparation for the retreat that I facilitated at. It was Amir's cueing, like, there may be some nerves starting to build right now. And for me, was. There was a lot of impostor syndrome and nerves and self doubt.

I was like, well, I don't know if I'm going be able to actually do this. I'm so uncertain in myself. It was just like, imagine yourself there doing it and how does it feel? And I was able to sit with that. Was like, Oh yeah, I can totally see myself doing that.

I can see myself in that room, in that space, leading, guiding, facilitating. And, you know, it really helped with the nerves. It really helped me to manifest it and bring it into reality. Versus the opposite was like I was like a bundle of nerves and not being able to, like, do the thing.

Right. And I think that a lot of people do imagine a lot in today's world. I think they just negative imagine catastrophize at times. So I think it's easier for us to imagine all of everything going wrong and get clear ideas of what that looks like and how that's gonna feel, and and we are less likely to practice everything going right. And I you know, we just there's so many movies, and our brains don't really know the difference between what what we're seeing in front of us and what we visualize in our head.

Right? So they were talking about the power of our thoughts with regards to what we're creating. So for people who are listening and think, well, imagination, is silly. It's a waste of time. Well, you're you might already be doing a lot of it.

You might be doing a lot of it, and it might not be serving you because you might be imagining everything that could possibly go wrong and spending very little time imagining all the things that might go right.

Yeah. On the topic of catastrophizing and the kind of like the haunting or nightmare side of imagination, I shared this in Sharing Circle on Monday that that was a big part of my imagination. Growing up, I spent a lot of time alone and I would just be riddled with fear. Fear that there was going to be a murderer that was going to come into my house and get me. Fear that there was going to be a tornado outside that was going to, like, sweep away my house and I'd have to, like, hide in the basement.

Like, I could I could see it so clearly in my head. And then any signal, any creak of the floor, any rustle of the breeze just sent me. It sent me into full on panic and fear.

Well, those are both plot lines of movies. So you're talking about Wizard of Oz

and on Friday the thirteenth.

But, you know, when you when you mentioned this earlier, I remember thinking, there was a time in my life Mhmm. When I believed that axed murderers just walk around the woods.

Absolutely.

And now as an adult, I think that's crazy. Mhmm. Like there are so few people to murder.

Mhmm.

And the You know? Like why would they do that? Mhmm. But that's what I thought. I'm like, oh, if you walk in the woods at night, that's that's where the murderers are.

Yeah. So I get it. Because when I was a kid, same idea. Be like, well, there are murderers out there because that's what I've seen. But So if you're listening, there probably aren't.

I was gonna use it as a PSA, but you should still be cautious, still

No. I mean, let's not take murdering lightly. Well, I wanted like I just wanna speak officially for the Circle podcast. We are very anti murder. We do not advocate murder.

So, okay, I feel good about that now.

So another fear, another part of catastrophizing imagination, or the imagination of catastrophizing was, the fear of ghosts and hauntings. And that really scared me a lot as a kid. And there came a moment, I can't remember it, but it was recently actually within the last couple of years because I even remember waking up in the middle of the night and being so afraid to even get up out of bed. I was like, oh, like, if I get up out of bed, the ghost in the corner is gonna see me and get me. Like, blah.

And, like, something happened recently where I was, like, able to to, like, start to imagine spirits as benevolent and be able to, like, have the confidence to be like, oh, even if I did encounter one, I'd be like, you know what? Now's not the time, bro. Right? Like, stay in your spooky corner. It's fine.

Right? Like, I'm not here for you. Yeah. Right? And just, like, being able to, like, have that.

That to me has been the power an example of the power of manifestation to turn my catastrophizing imagination into something that I can like work with and handle.

Yeah. So Amir talks about having done this thing. And I remember the first time that he mentioned it, it blew my mind Because I did it too, and no one ever taught me to do it. I just did it. So I suspect that Amir and I both felt a similar sense of lack of safety in our in our childhood.

But when I was a kid, I would say a prayer. So our father, hail Mary, a few other ones. And every time I said a prayer, I would imagine, like, one layer of a force field being wrapped over my bed because I was also afraid of ghosts. And there were days when I needed a lot. I I was feeling very uncertain.

But it was I was imagining. I was creating in my mind this protective field around me. And I would argue, although it was sad that I felt so unsafe, my I was utilizing my imagination in service to helping me feel safe and ultimately falling asleep. So it's an example of how imagination can be helpful.

Yeah. And it's kind of that imagination can be the cause of that feeling unsafe, that creation of narrative, but it can also be the remedy. Right? And that's kind of the reclamation of imagination, of reclaiming it that it's not just something for children. It's not just something that is for creative people.

It's something for all of us to take control of our lives, to take back some power. So one of the things that I was hearing you say earlier about the authority, like playing craps, like going through our lives and taking these chances and kind of leaving it up to fate or leaving it up to somebody else is maybe not the way to go about the world, right? When we can use our imaginations to take back some of that power and start to make our own path and have a little bit more control out of our reality.

Yeah. I think imagination is part of how we take control of our internal and external world.

So let's go back to the circles. Were there other themes that popped up in either?

I mean, the connection between imagination and creativity came up frequently. And also the idea that I think particularly as men, we were told to start to let go of that part of us, you know, probably mid childhood. Like, the image that I got from the circle was somewhere between 10 and 14 years old. Most people in the circle had received the messaging that this is not what adults do. This is not what men do.

Right? You were supposed to be serious. We're supposed to be protectors, and we're supposed to have the answers and and and kind of be sensible. Right? And so there was a a relinquishing of that connection in service to this image.

But, you know, what's interesting to me is all the ways in which imagination can be really practically useful that no one is talking about. So I think the world would be full of more proficient lovers if we could utilize our imagination. If while I'm in the process of making love to someone, I can imagine how they might be feeling, what they might be wanting, I think it it would serve in that way as opposed to what I feel like I have seen a lot of specifically in, when I was when I was working with patients and they would they would, you know, this very rote well, this is how this goes. You start with you start with a and then you go to b, and then then from b, can do, like, c a or c b, you know, but then and then you go to d and then you're kind of done and then, you know, like, kiss good night. Right?

There's nothing wrong with that, by the way. But but what what if you started thinking about some other stuff? And then so take it away from lovemaking and romance and all that and and bring it to corporate America where you're supposed to be have the answers and hit the deadlines and be really efficient, but also think outside of the box. You know, we hear that all the time. Think outside of the box.

Think differently. But You have

two days to do it.

And you have two days to do it, And we told you fifteen years ago to stop being imaginative. So come up with a really great idea, but do it entirely from logic and reason. You know, it's it's it's wild. Twyla Tharpe, the famous modern dance choreographer and director, who directed Movin' Out, my first Broadway show, wrote a book called The Creative Habit, and there are all these different exercises in the book about, ways of being creative. And a lot of that is, like, sort of look for things in randomness.

It's a skill. And then gold can be found. But if you never practice it, you're probably not gonna be very good at it.

So looking things in randomness?

Yeah. So, for example, she has this one exercise that you can do, a creative exercise, and it was this was for the perspective of a choreographer and dancer, but it you know, where throw coins onto a onto a surface, a table, let's say. And then, of course, the coins the coins will land there randomly, and they might be different sizes, you know. And then from that, start a creation. Right?

And so, oh, I you know, and what can I make from this? That's imagination. If I have to start here and I'm creating a dance or what if I'm making a drawing or making a if I have to start here, what can I where can I go? And then you might end up somewhere you never would have thought you would, you know, you never could have imagined at the beginning, you just had to imagine the possibility. And then you start and you're like, oh, now I'm in a place I didn't know was even possible.

Hearing that, first thing that came to my head was problem solving. And now I'm making the connection in my head that I was told imagination is a waste of time. But what I was told and what I was trained to do But you were told. I was told. But what I realized was that it was actually kind of potentially like a reframe of like, imagination is for children, but problem solving is for adults.

Right? And so like, I problem solve all the time and I'm using my creativity and my imagination all the time in my professional life because I'm solving problems.

Well, that's why we're having this conversation, because we just have to reframe it. Imagination is an essential component for real world things like problem solving that can come in very handy, be super lucrative, can, you know, but we have to be willing to claim it then. Oh, so this is a part of how I solve this problem.

Or like that that to me is just like how it was like like a synonym. It was like, oh, we're replacing. As you grow up, we're replacing the word imagination and creativity with problem solving. Because it's like, don't know, the the action of what we talked about, like imagination being the spark, creativity being the vehicle, right, to, like like, bring that into to reality, like, it's the same process I go through in in problem solving. I just don't call it imagination and creativity.

I call it problem solving. Right.

It's the same thing. Right. Well, and and then it makes me think about the idea of play. Mhmm. So I do believe that imagination can include play, the ability to engage in an activity without, a required outcome for its for its own sake.

And from that, what can what can be revealed? So the thing I guess the distinction I would make is problem solving still has a, like, a foundation to it or or a method to it. And I think imagination can be really vital to that. I think there are other kinds or other ways of engaging imagination that can exist without that framework, without that structure.

My graphic design hero, miss Paula Cher, who did the

Miss Paula Cher. Cher host.

Do a share

counter for

every time you hear us do a terrible share impersonation.

Listen. Yours are terrible. Mine are excellent.

Oh, I found someone. Okay. You sound so good. Okay. So Chad, fire up the the, other recording studio.

We're gonna do an album next. So her name was Paula Cher. Yes. So she's the A graphic design guru of yours. A graphic design hero.

So Paula Scher is a partner at Pentagram, a New York City based graphic design firm, and she is the designer behind things like the New York City Public Parks Project. She also did the back in the day, like her, like, claim to fame or her ways of getting into things was she was a designer for record label. So she did the iconic Chicago album cover with the flying guitar.

If you Chicago the band, not Chicago the yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Chicago the band. So that iconic flying guitar spaceship album cover. So she did that. And she did the Citibank. When Citibank and Travelers were merging, she did the arch over the city.

And so that's who Paula Scher is. Anyway, so she has an entire way of thinking about design, that there is play, which is very much like what you're talking about where there's no, like, predestined outcome. You're just playing. You're just, like, happily making mistakes, just seeing what things do. You're just, like, you're literally just playing around.

And then there's

With messiness. Allowing some messiness.

And then there's serious play, where you're still playing, you're still doing that process, but there may be more of an outcome, right, an intended outcome. And that has been a philosophy that I've leveraged in my design career is like, how can I be playful but seriously? Yeah. Mhmm. And then bringing that bringing that to the attention.

You know, I find it really, inspiring. So every summer, there is a theme week here in Provincetown called Carnival. And it is sponsored by the PBG, right?

Provincetown Business Guild, yep. Yes.

And it has a theme, and when I give my costume a lot of effort and I and I and a lot of time, those are the the years where I have the most amount of fun. And I think it's because of what you're talking about. You you I use my imagination. So, you know, interestingly, when the themes really spark my imagination, that's also when I tend to be like, oh, I have this idea. And there have been themes where I'm like, it's not it's not sparking me in the same way.

It's harder. You know? So I get sparked. I get an idea. And then, you know, I try some stuff, which I guess is the the play.

And then once I have a clear idea, I I definitely move into what did you call it?

Like Serious play.

Serious play. And and serious play is I still wanna look cool at Carnival. I wanna look great in the parade or or, like, along the parade route. And it is so much fun. Mhmm.

So much fun. And, you know, anyone anyone who's listening, you can go onto my Instagram if you want to see me when I was the kettlebell. And I just I love that outfit so much. I was having a ball the whole day. A really fun time.

What was the theme that year?

Oh, was Toyland. Toyland. So, I mean, so it was a bit of a stretch arguably, like Mhmm. I was like, kettlebells are They're your toys. They're big toys for big boys.

Yay. But I just made that up.

New merch?

Well, I mean, big toys for big boys. Yeah. Yes. Kettlebells are, and I love them. So it was a bit of a stretch on the theme, but I had it was probably my favorite carnival I've ever done.

That was a really cool outfit. Thank you. It was really fun. Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah. I think, like, bringing it all together now, right, is, like, you were able to have a spark

Boom. Play a little bit Mhmm.

Start to bring creativity into the picture, and then move it into production. Right? Like, actual, like, like, making this thing happen, this spark of an idea that you had and actually, like, bringing it out into the world, birthing it out into the world.

And in the process of doing it, I had to learn. So I guess that's serious play, right? As I was doing it, I'm like, well, this is working, this isn't working. I think that's part of serious play, right?

Absolutely. I think that, like, how can we take that into other aspects of our life? Let's talk about bringing it back to men's work and embodiment practices now. Like, what are some of the things that can benefit from more imagination, more play, more serious play?

Well, one of the things I hear a lot, so in the lineage in which I am trained, in the the men's embodiment circle, we have the five instruments. I could quiz you, but they they are Bring

it on.

What what are the five instruments?

They are attention, breath, visualization, sound, and sometimes touch, so six. I'm I'm only gonna get a 90 on this course. Goodness.

I'm only gonna get 90. I think you only get an 80 because there are five.

I introduced the sixth one, touch.

Yeah. But that's not really if you if this

is See my Brad energy coming online right now where I'm like, buh buh buh buh.

And movement or or posture. Right. Right. Right. Right.

And so okay. So, movement, breath, sound, visualization, and attention. And a lot of men have come up to me, over the two plus years now that we've been running the circle and will say, I have a really hard time visualizing. I have a really hard time visualizing. And I think that, first and foremost, visualization can be different for different people.

So and I think in the in movies and TV, we think of it as this really crisp, clear, like, premonition, like, oh, the movie trailer playing on the back of my forehead, and I just watch it. It's that clear. And maybe for some people, is. And then I think for other people, it can be a little bit muddier than that or a little bit, you know, more abstract. And they feel like it should be that, and so I'm not doing it right.

And I'm like, no. You have to just give it a try. But I I realize now I'm inviting them to practice with their imagination skills. And then also, you know, included in visualization would be trusting what is coming and adding letting this physical sensations of your own body influence these things, so it gets a little bit more complicated. But, oh, partly we might be having trouble visualizing because we were told to stop.

I have a story on that. Because this was actually one of the transformative moments in my shamanic journeying and visualization. I don't know if I'm going call it ability, but my capacity to allow myself to go there. Because I was somebody that was anytime the cueing of visualization came up, I could sometimes get stuck where I'd be like, oh, I'm not imagining big enough. I'm not doing it right.

It's good enough. And I think I can take that back to being the first time that I was graded for an art project. I used to love art. I used to love to draw and paint and do all these things and express myself through a visual medium. And then you introduce grades and I'm like, oh, there's a right way to do this?

And so I think I took that into visualization practices and kind of having to work through that. And one of the practices that helped shake me out of that was facilitated by Carrie Kalighi. She brought us through this really beautiful journey where she wanted us to invite in Merlin. And at one point, was like, in my head, please don't let Merlin just be this classic trope of an old man with a beard and a blue robe with stars and moons on it. And that's what came up.

And it was like, I I initially was gonna fight against it. I was initially gonna say, no, Eric, you can do better. You can create a better visual of Merlin than that. And then I said, no. This is my Merlin, and I'm gonna go with it.

And I had such an impactful experience through that allowance of saying, this is what this is gonna be. And was it the most creative thing in the world? Yeah. It was because I created it in in my imagination and was able to, like, be in that journey. Was it the most unique and novel thing in the world?

No. And I think that sometimes prevents me from, you know, chasing creativity.

So say that again. What Rephrase that. What stops you from chasing creativity?

Something having to be novel, unique, the most original, the most creative, the best. Yeah. Right? Because, like, again, I saw the classic trope of, like, Merlin from The Sorcerer's Apprentice from Fantasia. Sure.

Right? Just like old guy, blue robe, stars and moons. I was, like, basic. It was a basic, you know, visualization.

So this is interesting because I do think when people work with their imagination, that there might be a pressure that I have to then imagine something very unique, very interesting. You know? And you're sort of talking about archetypal work. One of the one of the powers of that is that we all have a sense of what this person looks like, and that can help us access it more quickly. Right?

So if you're imagining the king, I think we all maybe have a general sense of, oh, he's got like a big, you know, coat on and a crown and, you know, whatever. So we don't always have to reinvent the wheel for our imagination to really serve us. It sounds to me like you drew on an idea of Merlin that was really helpful.

It

was. And it was clear because we've seen it a hundred times.

And now when I do visualizations, I have so much more allowance and I have so much more just capacity to go there to visualize. When initially I struggled, I've really struggled with visualization, just like you were saying. A lot of men when they come into this space, I was one of those men. I was one of those men that had a really hard time connecting with a visual. And I mean, it's still a challenge just like some of the movement practices, just like some of the breathwork practices.

It still is a challenge for a reason, but I have a lot more allowance. I have a lot more allowance to let it be what it's going to be without this pressure of saying it needs to be a certain thing or it needs to be better, it needs to be novel, it needs to be unique. All these things that I had been graded on and applauded for throughout my career.

Yeah. I think we have to remember that it's a skill that we need to practice. And like learning any new thing, it'll be hard and you're probably not going be great at it right away. And visualization was never natural for me in that sense either, and I feel like I have gotten better at it with practice. But, yeah, there are times when, oh, I don't see that clear picture, but I'm having some experience, and can I work with that experience?

And so allowing ourselves that. You know, I was working with a client one time, and this is a deeply practiced man, actually, trying to get him to visualize basically like microcosmic orbital breathing, like breathing down the front of the body and up the back of the body. And he was very attached to, like, I can't visualize. I can't visualize. And I gave him a few different ways to sort of help, but he sort of kept coming back with, I can't do this.

I've never been able to do this. I can't do this. And at some point, you think, well, then that's true. If, you know, if you've convinced yourself you can't, you can't. You're like, you're right.

And I mean

That's the reality you're gonna create if that's the narrative. That's if that's your imagination telling you. Right. Well, whether you

think you can or you can't, you're right.

Yeah. It's I mean, we've

all heard that. It's the same idea. And so I think if you're wanting to deepen your capacity to work with your imagination, deepen your capacity to visualize, you have to be willing to try, and you have to be willing for it to not be whatever it is you think is perfect for a while. Yeah. So I keep thinking about Charmed and Phoebe from Charmed played by Alyssa Milano.

We're referencing, you know, so many tags for this episode. Alyssa Milano was the youngest of three sisters in the original Charmed until Shannon Dougherty left and then they got a stepsister. And she had the ability to premonition. And her premonition came like like sort of cloudy movie trailers of, like, what was gonna happen. If that is the image you have of, like, what imagination or visualization is gonna be, then you're probably gonna feel like you're not doing it right.

Going back to the the man that you were working with Mhmm. Who was struggling with the the visualization of micro orbital breath, like, were you able to have a breakthrough?

I gave him tactile aid. So I asked him to run his finger up and down his midline Mhmm. Tracing the breath to try to bring in another sense to the experience. So he said that that was helpful, but he kept telling me, but I can't do this. And so it helped a little bit.

Yeah. I love that practice and that nudge because then it's bringing on a couple different senses. Because the goal of something like that, for me anyway, is that like, oh, I'm trying to draw my awareness to my breath and consciously move it in very specific shape or position throughout my body. And visualization can help me do that by thinking like, oh, there's a snake running up my back and a tiger running down my front. I can start to use that visual to do it, or I can think about it as a ball of light.

Maybe my breath is a ball of light and I can follow that ball of light down and then back around. One of the brothers in sharing circle mentioned something about growing a unicorn horn as a way attention to the third eye. If that is a challenge, then can you imagine a horn growing out of your forehead and bring on the imagination? Or if you're trying to expand the breath into the back body, can you imagine wings like sprouting out from your shoulders and then being able to bring the breath into that?

And I say this a lot in the circles. You've heard me say it many times, that you have to also trust what works for you. So if a visual so I'd never heard the unicorn horn for the third eye, but I I'm probably gonna try it now. And if it works for you, great. And let let what is working for you be an indication of what works for you.

I mean, it's one of the principles of, HUNE. Effectiveness is the measure of truth. I hope I didn't misquote that. But if it works for you, then it works for you. Keep working with it.

Mhmm. So if you're the person who needs to add some touch or you need to visualize the breath like it's smoke or it needs to be a tiger one way and a snake the other way or, you know, And and this is the moment where imagination really comes in. There is no wrong answer if it works for you. So, you know, it's funny when I would I would talk to my acupuncture patients and ask them to tell me, you know, how they were feeling sensationally. And I would give them some options.

And at the end, I would say, there is no wrong way to describe what you're feeling if it's what you're feeling. I said, you could tell me it feels like honey dripping down tree bark, and that gives me more information than the word fine. Mhmm. But also, I have a sense of what you mean even though I don't know what that feels like. So that so the people who had greater access to their imagination had greater capacity to share their sensational experience with me.

And in so doing, serving their acupuncture treatment and me, making it easier for me to treat them and making it more likely that they get a better result. So it's a powerful, powerful tool.

Bringing it back to something you said in the beginning, this idea of co creating reality, allowing our imaginations to really help us to manifest the reality that we want to see and experience in this world.

You have to be able to imagine it.

Yeah. So I really do think that imagination is one of the most radical things we can reclaim as adults. And it's not just a distraction from reality. It's not just to daydream or anything like that. It's actually a tool to shape reality.

And so maybe the more we can practice it, the more that we can imagine it for others too, for others to practice the manifestation of their own reality. So I am feeling complete.

How are

you feeling?

I feel complete. Alright.

Will you take us out, please?

I will. Let's close our eyes and take a deep inhale through the nose and gentle exhale through the mouth. And with deep appreciation and gratitude for the shared sacred space and for any insights, awarenesses, or understandings that were gained, that we now release the archetypes and the spirits that we called in. And as we leave the circle, I wish you all safety, community, brotherhood, and love. With these words, our container is open but not broken.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.