Rope and Radical Communication: Mr. R on Trust, Consent, and Kink

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you haven't already, please be sure to subscribe and leave us a review. Today, we're joined by Mr. R, a rigor, dominant, and bondage educator dedicated to building community through educational and artistic experiences with bondage, kink, BDSM, and engaging classes. We'll explore the crucial role of communication and consent in BDSM and talk about how clear ongoing communication builds trust, ensures safety, and fosters deeper connections in and out of a scene.

Tim, mister r, are you ready to go ball

in? I am.

Mhmm.

Okay. Well, first of all, welcome, mister r. We're so glad that you could join us here today.

Thanks. Yeah. I'm really excited to be here.

Yeah. Where are you dialing in from?

I'm joining you guys from Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Hi, Cambridge. So before we fully dive into today's conversation, I just wanna take a moment to check-in with Tim. How familiar are you with the terms that I mentioned in the opener? Rigor, dominant, BDSM, just to make sure we're all kind of playing in the same world here before we go fully in.

Some of those words I feel very familiar with. BDSM, I have seen. But do I have a deep understanding? I would say probably not. Dominant, I have heard probably the the term I'm most familiar with.

And then rigor, I have a sense of what that is. But I would like to know more. And like my sense is, that's what we would refer to, you know, in Broadway shows when we would repel. Mhmm. Like in the Pirate Queen, we would do a lot of like repelling.

And we would. Yep. That's the thing we did. Because, you know, we were, like, supposed to be pirates on Broadway, so we were, like, swinging. And and so I I'm assuming it's a similar way of setting up and safety and and things, but but but I'm eager to learn what it means in this context.

Okay.

Well, why don't we start there, mister R? And we'll just kind of do a lay of the land for, all of our listeners.

Yeah. So, I use those terms in part to recognize that not every encounter which involves rope involves a power exchange. So it isn't always about, being a dominant or finding a submissive. Sometimes it's more friendly. And so I think a lot of rope play can come out of community, can come out of friendship, can come out of, sensation play.

And so I use this term rigor to identify both that I do suspension with rope, which involves rope on the body and moving the body through three d space, which includes hanging and using gravity as a force downward. And, I also use it to recognize that I'm not always playing the role of a dominant, that I'm not always, using power dynamics in the kind of play that I like to play with.

So with that explanation, it does sound like, you know, the the rigging that you are used to in Broadway is is probably pretty similar then. So there's, you know, some sort of attachment and some sort of rope or mechanism to keep people into a position, and there is an element of safety also involved there.

Yes. I I would say in my experience, there was always someone who was an expert in what they were doing and, you know, the people who were being trained to work with these apparatuses in whatever way. So on one show, we did bungee cords. Mhmm. And in swing, we did the girls were in bungee cords, and so we would kinda throw them.

It was almost as if, like, what would swing dancing look like if there were no gravity? And then in in the pirate queen, it was more like rope because we were, you know, like, rappelling down from a ship. You know? And there was very clear procedures and rules. And so and there was one person who was responsible for that.

So they they had the final word on how it all went and if we were ready to do it or not. And and safety was always the number one thing for me. And for in that in that circumstance, that was always as soon as safety was questioned, everything stopped, including sometimes the show where, like, the the stage manager would be like, you know, sorry, ladies and gentlemen, we have to have a pause. And they put the curtain down and make sure everyone is safe.

Yeah. And and and on that topic, mister R, I've been in one of your workshops in the past and, you know, I had the incredible experience being there. And I what I recall and remember so much about it, it wasn't about the the skills that I I learned with rope. It was about the the structure of the container that you set, the safety that you so eloquently talked about. You brought us through several slides on communication, negotiation, consent, and really the safety building.

So I would love to to start there and and ask you about the importance of all of this before we even get into the the acts themselves.

Yeah. I mean, I I structure my classes that way because my feeling is, like, that's the thing that I want you to take away. That's that's the the meat and potatoes of all of it. Like, if you leave and you don't ever play with rope again, the thing that I think is most important is recognizing how we manage risk together, how we hold space with one another, how we how we talk about the risks that we're undertaking because nothing is risk free. Right?

Like, you're driving a car. We, I don't know, have Grindr hookups.

Mhmm.

And there are risks involved in all of that. There are different risks, of course. But the the risk management and, like, the clear open willingness to communicate, I think, is is the thing that I want people to take away. And it's also a thing that I think is really lacking in a lot of the sex education that many of us had, that many of us experienced as, I guess I had my sex education in, like, junior high and high school, and then it was sort of, like, over, which is also weird to think that it isn't ongoing and that this kind of conversation about consent can't happen much younger, and that it can't I know that that there is, like, the meat and potatoes, which is often the putting something inside of something, and that there's no wider conversation about why we do this thing and what varieties we might encounter and how we center our pleasure in in the practice because it's I don't know. Somehow that seems like superfluous.

Just crazy to me.

Yeah. I really appreciate the the emphasis on on safety and the admission of risk. Right? It's the the exposing that in any situation that we're partaking in, especially in the realm of of sex, sexuality, and then into kink and BDSM, there is there will always be an element of risk. There is something there.

And I think the pure acknowledgment of that and the vocalization of that is so powerful. And then working through the shared understanding of the risks that we're assuming and then going into do you consent to this is so powerful. So could I hear from you your definition of consent and can we educate the audience about what it is we're talking about when we talk about consent?

Well, I wanna backtrack just for a minute

Of course.

About something which is about risk, and that is that this thing is really risky and it's really dangerous and, potentially life threatening. But this thing is really risky. You know? Like, it's it's that's kind of the fun of it. And so to ignore that is also to, like, lose some part of what it is that I think is actually really thrilling and allows us to step outside of our normal everyday I mean, I'm here in my corporate cosplay, as I said at the beginning.

And to, like, step out of this and and to inhabit that world of risk is really fun and can build a lot of trust and can, I don't know, just give you a kind of playfulness that that sometimes is missing as adults?

So I'm gonna jump in be maybe the beginner question, but you just sort of spoke to this thing is really risky, and then you repeated it with a smile. Right? So it's like, it's a thing we need to be aware of, but also a delicious part of it. But what are you talking about? Meaning, like, what is this thing?

Is it is it the relationship that's really risky? Is it is it is it the working with rope in particular? Is it the suspension part of it? Like, I mean, I'm I'm coming in with almost no no understanding. I assume some of the listeners are also.

So what do you mean when if you could go a little deeper with that?

Yeah. One of the things or like, to to draw an analogy, when you're like going for a hookup and you have those like little butterflies in your stomach and you're like kind of excited, but it's also like I don't know. You're like, oh my gosh. Is this person gonna murder me in their basement? Or are we gonna have like really great sex?

That is kind of this element of like, oh, it's, like, kind of risky. It's kind of, like, a little bit dangerous, and it also feels maybe, like, a little bit wrong. And that's what the spice of it is. That's the thing that makes it, like, gives brain tingles, I guess, and and the, like, the butterflies. And if and sometimes when those butterflies are gone, it can be hard to be like, oh, that like, I am excited to, like, do that thing that I, like, I don't actually feel nervous about.

So it's like a reinjection of that, maybe nervous energy or that, like, anxiousness, which can also be a flip side of a coin to excitement.

There's an inherent risk in many of the acts that we do. And then when we introduce BDSM and kink, we are introducing more risk. And the risk that can be introduced here is there is the risk for greater physical and psychological harm. Because we're starting to go deeper and into darker crevices and in things that on the surface could seem taboo, could seem wrong. And so there is more inherent risk than, let's say, just a Grindr hookup.

But even that Grindr hookup, even if it's just, hey, we've agreed that this is what we're gonna do. If you've never met that person before, there is still risk there. Right? And now with if we're introducing something that is like we're agreeing that we're gonna play with rope, for example, now we have additional risk that we have to communicate and we have to talk through and we have to build an agreement and consensus on of how much we're gonna play, how are we gonna play, and starting to create structures and boundaries around that. Because the act of rope, let's just stay with rope for a moment here, can be dangerous.

Yeah. Rope can cause nerve damage. Rope can cause, bodily harm. There's carryover effects where if you're tied up and there's a fire. And so thinking through those things together with a partner and how you wanna manage those risks.

And, also, each tie and each way that you put her up on the body carries different amounts of potential harm to that person. And, like, some ties are escapable and are much more like a suggestion that one is captured versus another situation in which you, like, are fully tied up and you could not escape unless the other person helps you out. Those things involve different amounts of risk, different amounts of trust, different amounts of I don't know. Just just, like, a little bit of excitement, but also nervousness. And the the the things that we have been told are wrong are often the thing that we're sort of playing with, this, like, taboo element of, like, it's bad to kidnap someone.

But now you have someone who says to you, I want you to kidnap me.

Mhmm.

How do you deal with that? How do you, like, make it okay, both for yourself, for the other person, and, like, also legally? Like, do I make sure that the police don't get involved?

Or Well, this is interesting interesting to me because I'm I'm thinking, it sounds a lot about communication, right, which I know we're gonna get into. But, what if you're a person who's curious but has never been there? How does someone how does someone consent when they don't entirely know where they're going? You know, like, we're we're Mhmm. Taking a hike.

Like, I have never done this hike before. I don't know what's coming. So I'm, like so what what what do you do in that situation? How how do you meet that person?

Yeah. So you could set up a structure for communicating during the the actual play itself. You could say like, okay. Well, we're gonna start slow, and and you can tell me, like, when it's too much. And this is how you'll tell me when it's too much.

We could maintain very clear and normal conversation. I'll regularly check-in with you. You could also do it, in in something I call, like, lab work where you're, like, actually just, like, just doing the thing and that there is no, like, anything else going on, whether it's sexual or, psychological, where it's literally just like, I'm gonna put rope on your body, and you're gonna tell me how that feels. And then I'm going to suspend you from that part on your body, and then you're gonna tell me how that feels. We're gonna see if that thing works and if you like it.

And if you, like, wanna come down at any moment, like, we we we end. Like, there's no pressure to keep going. There's no reason to, like, not enjoy this thing because the enjoyment is is the heart and soul of this whole why we're even engaging in the risk at all.

So this is really fascinating to me because I did not know I was gonna this was gonna come up, but I, was an acupuncturist or am still an acupuncturist. And my first session, specifically with someone who's never had acupuncture, is very that. It's I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to you about all the things I'm doing. I'm gonna tell you, like, this is my finger. This is the guide tube.

This is now the needle. You know? And it's a very conversation. And I will tell people, I'm like, at some point, I'm good at being really quiet, but this first session, I'm gonna ask you over and over again. How are you feeling?

How does this feel? How does this feel? To help them build their own vocabulary about their own physical sensations, might be brand new to them, but also so that I'm constantly aware of how do I dose this physical medicine to you? I'm kind of shocked to to hear now. It feels like a very similar thing is happening.

And then I so I have to imagine as it is with acupuncture, each person and each dynamic then is a unique snowflake because I have this much bandwidth for these things or or this person likes or wants more. This person needs the medium amount. You know? And, like, I guess it's like an art in finding those those sweet spots, those, like, golden I don't know. Maybe there's a real name for it.

Mhmm. That sweet spot. Yeah. That that that thing that makes everyone happy. Right?

Because as the acupuncturist, I never I never wanted my patients to be uncomfortable. Like, that was never that was never the point. Right? The point was give you the maximum benefit to the extent that you can accept it. Because there are some differences, obviously.

But Yeah.

And I think what would be interesting to to continue to invite more people into this kind of conversation is, like, there can be conversation that's happening during this kind of lab like, almost sterile conversation of like we're just doing the thing and we're just checking in. There's no other things at play right now. And it very much is like just developing a relationship with whether it's the needle or the rope or whatever else it might be. There's kind of like this in the moment experimentation going on with an active exchange of information going back and forth, right? We're understanding where each other's experiences are.

What happens though beforehand, before we actually get into a session, before we get into a scene, the communication that is happening at that point, I think, also plays a really critical role before we get into the scene. So from an acupuncturist standpoint, what are the conversations you might have with somebody who's like, hey, this is my first time with acupuncture, and I have no idea what's going on. Like, what do I do?

I mean, I give them a a rundown. I don't wanna do the whole rundown now. Mhmm. So I'm more interested in mister R's rundown, but but I I'd like these are some of the most common things that most people experience and that you can kind of expect and give them know, with acupuncture, I tell people, like, people think they have to come lay on the bed of nails. I'm like, that isn't

what we're

that isn't what we're doing. And so reminding them the comfort, you know, and then and then giving them some examples. I'd be curious to know, is it is it very similar?

Yeah. I mean, we're we will often talk through, like, what do we want to get out of a scene? Like or or what do we wanna get out of rope? Like, why do you wanna do rope? Is it that you like the physical sensation and perhaps some of the discomfort?

Is that you want zero discomfort? Is it about, like, certain positions or, like, look looking certain ways? And is it about, like, rolling around on the floor together alone? Is it about being suspended? Is it about being captured?

Is it about, like, wearing something which looks really pretty and really beautiful on your body? And then also saying, like, okay. And then here are some of the concerns that come up, and here's how we'll manage them. So if you, I don't know, have, like, patchiness on your hands, that's often a a bad sign or a sign that, like, something needs to change. Not like patchy numbness, is often related to a nerve related something.

And so then I'll talk them through, like, what I'll do to address those problems. And if the problem doesn't go away, then we'll probably end the tie because it's not really within my, my risk profile to, push beyond those sorts of, like, nummy, tingly sensations. Those things can also be really distracting in in a a negative way where it's, like, not like, oh, it's painful, and I'm processing the pain, and that's kind of the point. But, like, it's so uncomfortable that that's all I can think about is that knot which is pushing on my ankle. And I hate that, and I need it to change in order for, like, anything else to, like, even be able to rise to the surface of my perception.

So I'll just, like, talk through some of those things. Or if there's specific ties, I'm gonna put someone in there to mention. Like, these are the places on your body that I'm concerned about. As the rope goes on, I'm gonna check-in with you. Also know that it might take five minutes for me to get you out.

So I don't wanna hear from you, like, get me out immediately. I mean, sure. Tell me that, of course, like, at the very minimum. But, ideally, you're telling me like, hey. This thing is, like, starting to bother me.

Is there something we can do about it? Because it's much easier to manage when you have a little bit more of a runway than this like, oh my god. If this goes on for thirty seconds longer, I'm gonna lose my mind, Or I'm gonna, like, lose my hand or you know? So it's it's like that sort of setup and communication.

So this is making me think. I'm gonna take a jump here. I was watching fear factor as, like, a boy in high school. And I have a terrible fear of spiders. And they what they did was they put the the contestant's head in like a table with like a plexiglass, you And then they put I think like 18 tarantulas, which are isolate, like solitary creatures in together.

And they were like they said to them this a similar thing. Like, it is going to take us fifteen minutes to put them on, and it will take us fifteen minutes to take them off. And I remember that was the moment for me where I'm like, oh, I couldn't like, you know, when you're like, I'm about to win $50,000, but I'm like I'm like, if I freak out, I still have to wait fifteen minutes for you to and then I was like, that but and they did not they were I don't know they were having this conversation on

air. Goes back to just being honest about the risks that we're assuming. Right? Like, that transparency is so beautiful because then it gives the contestant the conscious choice to say yes. They are they are more aware of the risk.

They cannot be aware of all of the risk. None of us can ever be aware of all of the risk. But how much transparency can we bring into the conversation so that the risks are understood? So that when we say, yes, you can put me in this box with 18 tarantulas, I understand a little bit about what I'm getting into. When I say yes, I want you to tie me in this certain way.

Right? Like, I'm understanding if I'm tied in this certain way, it will come with certain risk. It is gonna take us forty five minutes to get into the ultimate pose. And then for if it took forty five minutes to get there, it's gonna take a while to undo it. Even with safety shears, it's still gonna take a little bit of time to to to get out of it.

And I think that transparency and communication is so vital to then be able to get to the point of, do you wanna do this with me?

I also wanna say that with regard to risk and risk profile, these are things that can which can change day to day. So, like, one day you might be, like, feeling really spicy and feeling really great in your body, in which case, like, awesome. I'm, like, gonna shoot for the moon. And other days, you might be, like, kinda sad because it was daylight savings, and you're, like, sleepy. And you're like, you know, I really I don't wanna wanna deal with that today.

Rewind to me on Monday.

Or, it might be that with one partner, you're happy to do all kinds of things. With a different partner, you're not. And so that's this, like, you get to choose, you get to decide, you get to to be influenced by how you're feeling.

Absolutely. We're allowed to change, and our trust in ourselves and in others is allowed to shift. You know? That trust building up to that trust, you know, can take time. It can also be removed very quickly.

And so I do wanna take a moment to talk about that trust is mutual. It goes both ways. So it's not just about in the case of acupuncture, it's not just in the case of a patient trusting you and your abilities. You also have to trust that patient that they're going to communicate to you proactively and actively during the session how they're doing. That's totally right.

And in a rope scene, it's not just about the person being tied that has to trust the person doing the tying. Right? Like, the person doing the tying needs to trust the person that's being tied that, like, they're gonna communicate to me when they're getting to these points. Because if I don't trust that they will, then I'm also not in my full experience either. So how do we get to a point where or what are some of the things that we can do to nurture our communication to be able to develop the safety and trust that is necessary to get into the fullest of these experiences.

One of the things that I find really helpful is, similar as you were saying about acupuncture, that, like, developing a language together, which you both share and understand, I think is really an essential part where you not only understand the risks, but you can talk about them similarly. This is why I think it's really nice to have both people who like to be tied and people who like to tie in a class together as you begin to develop language around not just what the risks are, but how to describe them to one another and how to speak about them and how to request changes or how to, ask for adjustments or, how to express, like, hey. It's, you know, it's I need, like, five minutes, or can you let my arm rest a little bit, and then we can go back to this thing? Or we let it rest, and then maybe we don't, but I don't know. So there's that part of it.

There's also the continued demonstration of care, which I think comes from listening. So if you I mean, the best way to ruin someone's trust is to have them ask for something that they know that you can provide and just refuse to provide it. Mhmm. That's a, like, big red flag in my book. I'm like, if you're saying, hey.

I want you to do x, y, and z, and the person's like, no. Or they just, like, pretend like they don't hear you or other other demonstrations of, like, uncaring for your expression, I think is the best way to undo trust. But also the best way to build trust is to, like, practice demonstrating readily that you are listening and that you're ready to receive the trust that someone is handing to you.

That need to be recognized, to be heard, to be seen, that it's a fundamental human need. And especially if we're gonna be playing with something that is potentially risky, like, is so critical. So if I'm expressing something and I'm not being recognized, there's no validation coming back in return, like, how can I expect to trust?

Well, so I I wanna pause for a second because, you know, a men's embodiment podcast, a lot of the work that we do is meant to help people create a conversation with their own body and start to understand, like, sensations and whatnot. And so, you know, in in acupuncture as the example, I would ask people, you know, to try to describe their sensations, and I would say, could you avoid words like good, hurts, pain, fine? I said because not that they're wrong, but they don't really tell me a lot. I'm like, so I'm gonna ask you to something like, oh, it burns. It itches.

It's it's tight. It's pulling. You know, those sorts of things. And the more a person is capable of doing that, the greater I am able to meet them in a way that I think gives them the greatest benefit. So I'm curious, have you also noticed that?

And and if so, how do you bring people into a greater sensational understanding so that they can meet you by saying not just it hurts, but, oh, it's a pool versus, like, a a brush burn versus you know? Because I feel like there's lots of things to be like, depending on what it is, you might have a different solution.

Yeah. One of the things that comes up about this is, like, you're tied in a position where you're also sort of twisted, and my body is different than your body. And you're saying my right arm has this pain. And I'm like, which one's your right arm? Like, is it so so one of the tools I use is to, like, actually touch and be like, is it this arm, or is it that arm?

Like, okay. Great. So and then is it, like, running my hand along their arm? Is it is it up here? Is it down here?

Like, where is this thing? Is it on the front? Is it on the back? Like, actually, like, providing that input to that person, not only gives them the ability to be like, yes, no, you know, sort of like the the eye doctor where they're like, is it one or is it two? But it's way easier to just go from like, is this thing clear?

Like, yeah. It seems clear. But, like, is this one clear or is that one clear is a much better way to have that conversation. So to, like, give the physical input of, like, where on which arm is it? And then they might even be like, oh, it's actually not on my arm.

I think it's on my chest. And then you'll, like, touch the body and, try to find what that thing is and and wait for them to affirmatively be like, oh, it's there. Like, change that.

So I'm hearing you say tactile aid is one primary way that you help people build the sensational vocabulary.

Yeah. And then the other one, I think, is through experience because there's all kinds of ways that rope can be painful. And, like, bad painful, not, like, good painful. Or, I mean, these things there's sort of a porous boundary between some of these. One of them is when rope slides on the skin, it can be shearing, and that sucks a lot.

And the shearing can come from it, like, sliding, like, along a limb, or it can come from something which is rotating. So if your body is sort of, like, twisted, and something is rotating against the skin, that can be really uncomfortable. Some of the discomfort can also come from something which is too tight, or it can be poorly placed. So some places on our body like, I'm thinking specifically about the upper arms. There are places where just, like, little tiny differences make a whole world of change.

And so, again, like, checking in to find out which, maybe, which band on the arm is the one that's uncomfortable and then adjusting that one, like, ever so slightly up or ever so slightly down. There's also ways, like, rope is a fairly dynamic element. So you can, like, pull the rope and push the body away from to, like, create a little bit of space, and it, like, shifts the the pressure point of that rope so that now there's, like, a little bit more breathing room on one side than the other side. And sometimes that will solve a problem.

And I love I love hearing about how we could get to solving that problem together and the the opening up of our internal experience to somebody else, right? Being able to communicate and be in this conversation with another person to help them understand, oh, I'm experiencing pain somewhere and it's not a pleasant pain because sometimes it can be a pleasant pain if we're talking about BDSM. Like, that may be something that I'm actively seeking. Like this is now getting to the territory of discomfort and something that I'm wanting to change. And so I'm letting you in on my internal experience and you're bringing in your curiosity to help to reveal that.

And so that that is a a very vulnerable and intimate act itself of communication of, like, I'm trying to help bring you into my inner world, and, like, I'm allowing you to be there to then get to a place where we can fix this together.

Another place where this comes up is not strictly sensational, but is also psychological. Where people, I find, don't have great vocabulary to describe why they like doing the things that they like doing. So for example, oftentimes people are like, oh, I'm I'm submissive or oh, I'm I'm dominant. Okay. Great.

But, like, in what way? Like, say say more about the motivations that draw you to that thing and how that thing is expressed or impressed, on each person. So, like, are you more service oriented? Do you like having people do acts of service for you? Are you more control oriented?

Is it that you I don't know. You like being objectified. Right? Like, there are different facets to submission and to to domination, which can also lend, what I like about building that language is that it provides for avenues of exploration. So it isn't just that this person is going to, like, let me do whatever I want to them because that is kind of boring, I think.

I wanna be able to, like, find those little boundary conditions and kind of, like, exert some friction against them

Mhmm.

And to, like, figure out what the buttons are. Like, how do I push the right buttons? And when you have that language, you can negotiate for that thing up front, and it can lead to a better match. And it can also lead to the decision that, like, yeah. Actually, I don't I don't think we have enough overlap to to do this.

Like, my interest actually isn't there. So I'm glad we talked, and I'm glad that we didn't harm each other, and I'm glad we didn't waste each other's time. And I I'm gonna go. I, like, learned a great bit about you, and you learned something about me, and that's that's where this ends.

You know, it's, it's fascinating. I I do think that we would benefit as a culture from a more robust conversation about these things. The thing that's popping up for me was that, you know, as a professional dancer, I had a I was used to a very particular kind of teacher, which was a very demanding sort of more and more and more sort of thing, and I felt that same thing in some of the sports that I would play. And so when I was in my early thirties at this gym in New York City, I would interact with people, you know, in that way. And some people really loved it because they were on the same page.

It's sort of, like, hard nosed. Like, every workout's a competition, and we're, you know, we're kind of jabbing each other in a friendly way. And then I I learned, I'm like, some people really hated it. And and I remember the first time discovering that and being like, oh, I I wasn't I wasn't trying to be a, like, a dick. I was I thought we were having fun.

And then recognizing, oh, well, the definition of fun is really different and, like, contextual, but then there was never a conversation. It sounds like the the world we're discussing now is maybe one of the beginnings of the conversation about that and, like, where you can sort of understand, like, these aspects of ourselves. So, you know, I think there's a lot that I still don't know in in this particular realm, but, like, how exciting it could be to decide, oh, well, I really liked it when I had a demanding yoga teacher or dance teacher that I that I then sort of satisfied by working harder. I wonder what that means. Right?

You know, like and and I have that discovery. So I guess I'm saying this for probably every person listening, you might be able to discover these parts of your life where, like, oh, these these dynamics have existed, or currently exist, and we might benefit from having a nuanced understanding even if it's just beginning with a, like, a nice exploration. Now how do we start that in, you know, I'm gonna leave to you two.

It's conversation. Right? It's it's like exactly what we've kind of been circling around is like, what would feel good to you? And what would be fun to you? And what does care look like to you?

And not allowing our perceptions of what those things could be to influence somebody else's. I think we've we've shared this on the podcast before, like, there's there's different ways that people receive care. Right? And so in a BDSM context, care could be impact. It could be a spanking.

Care could be, I'm gonna tie you up and pretend like I'm kidnapping you right now. And from the outside, that could look really scary. That could look really bad. That could look like, oh, you don't care about that person at all. When if done in a really safe container and in a trusting, loving way is actually one of the most ultimate forms of care.

I was actually at a party recently for Snowbound Leather Weekend. And like many of the gay leather parties, I sometimes get a little bored with them because what ends up happening in a lot of these spaces, and it's no critique to the people having these acts, it's just not my type of act, is it's a lot of sex. It's a lot of, fornication, anal sex, oral sex, and I'm just like, I can get a blowjob anywhere. Right? Like, this isn't interesting to me.

It really isn't. But what was interesting was the mommy and her slave that walked in, and slave accidentally spilled something on mommy's boots and had to get down and lick them up. Yeah, I see your face right now. Uh-huh. I'm like I'm like, now I'm interested.

And I also, in that scene that I was witnessing, I saw the most gentle, loving, caring affection coming from that mommy.

Is that what interested you? Yeah. Or, like, take a moment. That it was that was the thing more than anything

More than anything.

Like this this deep, like, consensual care and and shared shared dynamic. That's what fascinated you.

Yes. It was. I was like but I mean, the thing that caught my interest was the act. And then upon studying it, I was like, oh, there is something way more going on here.

So just to go back to your example then, with some of the other things that were happening at the party that you mentioned, I was at that party with you. Is it that you feel like the other things were, a little more transactional and therefore less intentional, less less communicated?

Yeah. That's that's definitely how I'm gonna interpret it, is that it felt more transactional. Didn't didn't have that same level of care of, like, love, involved and maybe not as much communication. There maybe have been plenty of nonverbal communication, but I don't know how much, like, verbal communication was going around of, like, hey. Here are my likes, dislikes, limits, you know, hard offs.

Right? Like, and here's my safe word. Right? There wasn't that, you know, a lot of that kind of conversation going on where where, again, kind of welcoming people into the internal environment. Right?

Welcoming people into what is happening inside of me starts to create a vulnerability, within myself. And that to me then allows for deep caring and deep nurturing.

One of the things that I wanna bring up in this space, especially as we talk about communication and asking for what we want and expressing how it's going, is to recognize the role of shame and how we have all learned, especially if we're in any space where we're perceived different or weird or freakish or somehow what we do is non normative, that that shame has a real silencing effect. It can be really hard to say, I want you to kidnap me. Be really hard to say, I want you to call me your slave, And what that means to me is it can be really hard to, like, fully inhabit that thing, which everyone is like, oh, you're you're weird. Like that. That when you do inhabit that and you find others, you can inhabit that with, and you feel like so fully seen in what it is that you have imagined and wanted and needed, that that that becomes really magical.

Like, it really becomes, to me, a source of community that we can all hold space for each other's weirdness and, the things which have been wrong with us for so long, and the things that, like, we are kind of afraid to show other people who don't understand what the space is that we cultivate together, that we can show up in in a fullness that often we we don't carry with us. I mean, me here in my, like, corporate cosplay. Right? I don't bring this side of me out in work even though at work, they're like, oh, you know, we, like, want everyone to be their whole self. I'm like, sure.

But, like, I don't think you're ready for that.

Yeah. But, know, it's interesting what you're saying because, in the spiritual personal growth world and the men's work world and all of this, this understanding of what you want is a really powerful question that a lot of people don't really know. And one of the things I feel like I'm hearing you say, which is exciting to me, it feels healing, is creating a safe space into which I could try something so I can discover if I like it or not. I know I will tell you this example. There was a person in New York City that wanted me to play with, like, some humiliation.

I had never done that. And luckily, I had the safe space to, like, kind of do that. It turns out that that isn't, my heart's calling.

Mhmm.

But but I was able to I was able to have a moment and an experience where I could try that. I think that's so important because otherwise, it's like we can get stopped in the well, I don't know. Right? Like, I I don't know. Well, how can I know?

It's a little bit like going well, I don't know if this is the right analogy, but going to the ice cream shop, you're like, oh, I haven't tasted that flavor. Well, I won't know if I like it probably until I taste it. I don't need to have a whole cone maybe. So they have a little sample. This is like I'm turning this into ice cream.

Yeah. Yeah. No. But you you take a sample, and you decide. Like and I think we need that in, like, lots of areas of our life, and this sounds like one of them.

So, oh, maybe I try something, and then I discover, oh, I actually really like that, Or maybe I don't really like that, or I I want a different flavor of that. But you know? And and so I think that that freedom to explore, seems really important in this world, but also it seems really important everywhere, to me at least.

Yeah. And and I also wanna say that in this space, there's often people who have known these things about themselves forever. I don't like, my my tying partner shared that when he saw The Jungle Book and Khan wraps up is it Khan? No. The the snake, like, wraps up one of the characters that he like, he was, like, six or seven.

I was like, oh, that's like I don't know what this feeling is, but that is well, that's something. Mhmm. Or when Aladdin gets tied up and put inside that burlap sack and then thrown in into the water, which is, like, a horrifying moment in Aladdin. But then he was like, oh, I have such conflicting feelings about this thing. And then maybe as a child, don't know because you haven't learned shame yet.

You say something about, oh, wasn't that tantalizing or exciting? And people are like, ew. No. What? No.

Absolutely not. That was wrong. That was a bad thing that happened to Aladdin. You should always think that's a bad thing. And then you're like, oh, these are cards that I should hold really close to myself.

And we start to put up these, like, little guardrails that that protect us from the world which wants to make us all normal. And I think that many of us are much more or much less normal than than we think we are. Mhmm. I mean, there are plenty of normal people, and those people kind of freak me out. I I will not lie.

When I find myself in a room where, like, everyone is making a lot of eye contact and everyone is, like, really just, like, normal communication, I'm like, I don't I don't get what's going on here, guys. This is, like, really strange to me. Where are my freaks and geeks at?

Mhmm.

And so that's where this like, it it isn't just about, finding this for yourself. It isn't just about, like, sampling and tasting, but it's often about, like, actually building space to do the thing that you've always wanted and known, but have also always equally been told is wrong.

So I I first of all, to say so much about that that I love. First, I wanna say the word normal has always been sort of a, like, a bad word for me as I because I'm like I'm like, I don't understand why that's something I would wanna strive for, you know, uniqueness, authenticity, things I wanna strive for, but, like, normalcy feels like not not that. But the the other thing I I think I'm hearing is, like, we have this really black and white thinking and or our culture contend towards very black and white. This is good. This is bad.

And I think it's the saying, you know, the difference between a medicine and a poison is the dosage. And I think this having a nuanced perspective of, well, I don't remember the scene in Aladdin, although I do love that movie and a lot of the music. I don't remember the scene, but you're like, oh, well, maybe there are ways of restraining people that are, like, bad, but it can exist on the spectrum like so much of men's work. Right? And you'd like, oh, there are other ways in context that that, you know, are not necessarily that.

And allowing there to be more than just yes, no, black, white, red, green. You know, like, and existing then in a world where, oh, I can have a conversation that that allows this to be present that isn't that image that you have. I think that's an important part of what we're doing, this this conversation, and I I I think we need more of it.

And there's there's something too about, like, starting to to to shift the mindset. I love the idea of poison versus medicine is based off of the dosage. That dosage is also dependent on the person. Right? But when we try to normalize everyone and we try to make everyone the same, we try to say this is the dosage that is for everybody.

When the truth is, right, like, I may enjoy something that's closer to what somebody else might perceive as poison or what could be poison to them. Mhmm. Right? Or I might I might only have a tolerance for less That, you know, less of that that medicine actually is getting me close to poison while that could be the dosage that somebody else might need. Right?

So it's just allowing that each of us are individuals and that we each have different things that can be healing or damaging to us.

Yeah. Humiliation comes in all forms and colors, whether it's, like, small penis humiliation or if it's, I don't know, using the f slur, if it's, calling someone fat or it's making fun of their body or it's calling them stupid or it's, making fun of the way they dress. I don't know. These things all have different, like, facets to them. And what I think is funny or not funny.

The, like, surprising and potentially ironic thing about humiliation play is it's offering it's offer empowering. It's often empowering to the person who who you're, like, calling these names to because it helps them feel seen. And helps them feel seen for the things that everyone else thinks they're less than. And so in some way, there's, like, this humiliation thing which is running through all of this, which is the seeing and making a a moment out of the things which we've often hidden from each other. But that I guess I find it ironic because so often the humiliation thing is perceived as, like, degrading and and it is it is that, but it is also a sense of empowerment that, like, now you get to recapture and play with these things that have so long been off limits.

Right. It's deeply caring. Like, that person is receiving it as care. Even from the though from the outside world, it may not seem that way, but that person is receiving it as love and care and attention.

Yeah. My friend, works in Findom, and she explained and because I know her so well and, like, how caring and she gave me that insight for the first time about about the service that it really was, and she would do some humiliation stuff, and and and I was my eyes were were opened up. Oh, there's there's real value and balance. You know, she she would sometimes speak, you know, about what it was they were wanting. Like, oh, this is a way of balancing out your life experience.

Right? Which I really related to from, like, a yogic perspective or an acupuncture perspective. It'd be like, oh, balance is really super important. Ayurvedic, you know, like, balance is good. Right?

And, like, so let's try to create that in all the ways that we can.

You were gonna was that the story you

were gonna share? No. No. No. I'm gonna share okay.

We just shared another story. So okay. So I was, when I was still living in New York City, I was, like, creating a, a special a special, excursion for my for my now ex husband. And I, I have I struggle with claustrophobia, and I I don't I took him to the city, the Skywalk or it's where you get you walk on the outside of a skyscraper in Hudson Yards. Do you know this?

Okay. Anyway familiar with Yeah. So I I took him to this thing, and I'm like I was like, this was a big surprise. I was like, this is gonna be great. And they put us in these jumpsuits, and then they put us in these harnesses, and my claustrophobia starts, like, really flaring up.

So I'm like, I I know and it's designed this way. You cannot get out of your harness until they let you out. And then they clip you into this railing. And once you're in the railing, you can't go backwards either. And I remember standing there, and I was like, oh my god.

This was my idea.

And I said yes to this.

I was like I was like, I say I said yes to this. I, like, did a whole surprise around it. I paid for it. Like and I was like, I don't know if I can do this. And, like, I I did end up doing it.

I was at the back of the I was at the back of the the team. I was like, Tim, you cannot freak out and then force everyone to run through this course. But it's like now I think in the context of this conversation, I could start to bring that. Right? To be like, okay.

Well, I struggle with a little claustrophobia. Where can we start? So it's there's power in knowing it. And then I suspect power in someone who's like, okay. Well, I've been here before.

Let's I think if someone explained, oh, here's a knot that you could get out of. Oh, okay. Let's maybe start there. I mean, but am I am I am I hearing you correctly? Is that, like, something that could a conversation that might happen?

Yeah. And and it also, like, not all rope is bondage. Like, sometimes it's about, like, feeling a tightness on the body. And so, like, you can design ties which are tight to the body, but the body is still free to move. Or that you can do a tie which just captures the knee, for example, so you, like, still have full range of motion at your hip.

And maybe you just tie one leg so there's, like, kinda wonky jaunty, like, motion that you are able to do but, like, not fully walk. And and so so there I mean, it comes in degrees, and you can sort of, like, titrate the amount that you give or receive based on what what each person likes and wants.

Yeah. Titration. Back to the yeah. Exactly. That that sound it sounds beautiful, and it sounds like it allows for an ongoing exploratory journey and how great that is.

Right?

One of the things we we mentioned earlier was kind of giving people the the heads up of like, it's gonna take this long to get into it and this long to get out of it. In the New York City experience of the walking on the skyscraper, did they give you knowledge about how long it would take to get the harness on and how long it would take for them to get it off?

I thought no. No. They didn't. They did an excellent job, but I I I didn't even know I was gonna be wearing a harness. I thought I had, like, a belt with, like, a carabiner clip.

No. Which now that I think about it, it's like, okay. You know? Of course, they're not gonna let me be able to unlatch, but, no, there wasn't there wasn't any of that. And and I remember I remember even though I had an unbelievably fun time, I still felt relief when they started peeling me out of the harness.

So I'm curious though, like, you know, as somebody that has been tied, right, and has gone through the experience of, like, being educated about like, hey, it's gonna take me about this long to get you into it, it might take this long to get out of it, here are some of the protocols, right? Like, it helped me to rest in something that I wasn't super confident in at first. So I'm curious, like, if they had taken the time to explain these things to you, to welcome you into the experience a little bit more, do you think it would have helped ease a little bit of that?

Absolutely. And I feel compelled to say they did a great job. All all of their education was about how we're not gonna fall off this skyscraper, which I think is most people's primary concern. And I think they were, like, less, like, about the claustrophobia. Because the thing is I could have run a marathon in this outfit.

I just could not have taken it off. Mhmm. You know? But, yes, they knowing that would have been really helpful.

And so they were helping to to help ease your nerves around some of the risk that was involved in this. I mean, the big risk, is like you could fall off the side of this building. Right? So we're going to educate you about how we're mitigating that, but there are other risks that they may not have been including you into.

That's right. Right. That's right. Yeah.

Mister R, I have one last topic to explore with you, and that is how we can translate the robust communication that we learn in our BDSM and kink play, and how do we translate that into our everyday lives. And so I want to just first and foremost congratulate you on your recent marriage.

Oh, thank you. Congratulations.

And how have you, over the course of your years in relationship, been able to use what you've learned through BDSM and kink and and developing these communication tools, how have you been able to incorporate them into your intimate personal relationships?

Yeah. One of the big things that I take out of this experience is taking a minute to or, like, building a ritual around communicating with one another, setting aside a time where you're gonna check-in. And you might even be like, okay. I feel totally crazy. I know this is crazy, but I'm experiencing jealousy about whatever this and I know that it's mine.

I know that I, like, I'm the one who has to deal with this, that's gonna help me to tell you. And I don't really expect you to do anything with it, but I need to just, like, let it out, and I need you to hear it. And building trust that, like, I'm going to say some things that, like, I even know are kind of crazy. And I'm using crazy here to be like, I know that it's whatever. That maybe you'll perceive that I'm blaming you, or maybe, this is not the way that I normally feel, and yet I still feel this way.

And but but, like, also, in order for me to to manage, I have to just I have to say it. I'm gonna say it, and I hope that you just listen and receive it. And I know that I don't want you to change. I don't want you to, like, act any differently. I don't think this is your fault.

But something about me just giving the words to this is going to is gonna help. And then also, perhaps you'll identify that this in this circumstance, the jealousy is actually rooted in some need that I have that we can work together on solving. So if I'm, like, feeling uncomfortable about you with another partner and I'm feeling jealous about this person, the need is like, well, I actually need you to just, like, reassure me that I'm still important to you. Even though, like, I I know that I'm still important to you, but, like, I I just, like, I guess, I just find you to say that. Or setting aside time to be like, oh, you know, we're gonna, like, do this thing.

I don't know. We're gonna cook a meal, or we're gonna friends over. You seem, like, a little bit anxious about that. Like, what what's going on? I'm like, well, I just don't want my friends to think x, y, and z about the way we live or whatever.

And so I think that ritual is really helpful. And then through that ritual, practicing listening and not bringing those things up in the future, not like throwing it back at someone. Right? So, like, holding space for it in that moment and allowing it to kind of wash away, to go away, to dissipate because that's kind of the the goal of sharing is, like, I'm gonna, like, let this out of me, and I don't want it to go into you. I actually just want it to just, like, float away forever.

But some for some reason, I don't know why, but, like, as a human being, it's nice for someone else to witness that thing happen. Sort of I said the ritual part of it, the, like, speaking to whatever the the feeling is that you're having, and even identifying that, like, you you don't expect anything of your saying this. And then the other thing is to recognize that, like, your wants and needs are different from someone else's. And maybe I'm going down, like, a little bit of a polyamory rabbit hole here, but, like, my wants and needs are different than your wants and needs. And my expression of those wants and needs, which you don't have or match, is not a judgment.

It is something genuine of myself and that you can demonstrate caring for me by allowing me to experience and to seek and to find an expression of those wants and needs regardless of your involvement in those wants and needs.

It's really, really beautifully said. And I heard a lot about being in a trusting relationship to be able to be seen, to be heard, to be recognized, to be held with compassion, and to have that be mutually given, right, in kind of this this dance that goes on between the emotions between two people or more people. And I think that it's it's really beautifully connected to a lot of what we discussed within BDSM and kink. Right? It's it's it's allowing people inside of our experience.

It's being vulnerable to share what it is we might be wanting, what it is we might be needing in certain circumstances, and trusting that somebody else can hold that with us and play with it with us and allow it to be expressed out of us so that it's not held by ourselves or held by the other person. We can kind of be in this dynamic together. And then how to translate that into our intimate everyday relationships. It's just really hit me in my heart. Was really beautiful to hear.

So I appreciate it. With that, how are we feeling? Are we are we nearing feeling complete? Are we complete?

I feel complete. Mister r?

We didn't answer your question about consent and what consent looks like. But I think that the the bigger conversation that we had around communication recognizes that consent is not a moment, and it's not a question that we answer when we move away from. But there's actually the fabric of the thing that we do, That that the constant reaffirmation, the constant continued participation is itself the thing which is consent. Right? It's not like in that scene between the mommy and her slave, The slave could have gotten up and wandered away and been like, no.

I'm not licking your boots. But in in their performance of that moment, they reaffirmed their their consent to that ongoing relationship and dynamic. And that, to me, is the essence of consent. We can get there through a variety of questions and through, examining exactly what it looks like and and how it's freely given or it can be revoked at any time, that it's informed, that it's enthusiastic, and that it's specific. And I also wanna note that, like, consent can be nonverbal, that that in a lot of queer and gay male spaces, there is a different consent language that that is built and is held within the community, which is different from other communities that isn't less good.

I think that it comes with other risks that are involved and the potential for greater misunderstanding because there's potentially less clarity, especially as we grow away from some of these consent models. But that those consent models do still exist, and they are still valuable to continue to, like, remind ourselves of, like, what does consent while cruising look like? What does consent while playing in a dungeon look like or at an orgy? What does that look like? And that, again, the, like, continued participation and the space provided for someone to withdraw is an essential part of this.

And that that's that, like, ongoing continued communication, which serves as the the moment to moment experience where consensus or, like, the electricity within within that thing.

It's really beautifully said. And definitely, Fodder, for ongoing continuous conversation with with you. I'm so grateful to have you as part of the circle, to have had you in my life. I've learned so much every time we talk, and I always always just have such a, like, warm, fuzzy feeling in my body when we get to connect. So I'm very appreciative of you being here with us.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you for being here.

With that now, do you do you now feel complete? Yeah. Alright. And, Tim, will you take us out, please?

Absolutely. Well, let's close our eyes, feel our bodies again in our seat and our feet on the floor if they are there. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for this shared space, the sacred space of inquiry, exploration, insight, and awareness. That as we leave this circle, I wish everyone listening, brotherhood, community, connection, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.