Unpacking the Prickle: Irritation, Annoyance, and the Needs Beneath the Noise

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practice, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If you haven't already, please be sure to like, comment, and leave us a review. And you can also send us a message with any of your questions. We'd love to answer them in a future episode. Today, we get curious about moments of irritation.

What if they weren't just annoyances, but invitations to look deeper at our unmet needs, old programming, and the stories we've been telling ourselves? As Carl Jung said, everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves. Tim, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready. Let's do this.

So we all experience big feelings like frustration, irritation, annoyance. But do you think most of us can even recognize where they're actually coming from? And what do you think irritation is trying to teach us when it shows up in our lives?

I think that when we're in a big emotion, it's really, really hard to have a perspective on it because we're so wrapped up in it and the sensation of it. So when we think about anger or irritation or frustration, it is often this hot, all consuming, fiery sort of quivering kind of, you know, experience. And that experience can be really hard then to pause and say, I wonder I wonder what's happening here. What I think happens pretty frequently is that we can feel very connected to, I'm mad about that. So whatever the that is.

I'm I'm mad that that person cut me off. I'm mad that that person is expressing themselves in a way that is contrary to what I think they should do or what I like or but the ability to then go back and think about what the beginning of this process is is really tricky in that moment. So one of the things that we do in men's work then is recall or look for patterns and then shine the light of curiosity onto it. Become curious about, every time someone cuts me off in traffic, I have a big feeling. I wonder I wonder what that's about.

And so it would be easy, and I think a lot of people do, stop at, it's about this person cutting me off. The end. And then what that will do is it'll just mean that every time someone cuts you off, you're gonna have a reaction that feels uncomfortable. And then some level, from my perspective, you lose a little bit of control and contentment in your life. Or you could become curious about it and say, I wonder what's really going on.

And then maybe when you have some discovery around that, make a different choice.

Absolutely. When a big emotion enters the house, right, like, they're beyond knocking on the door. They are now in the house and now it's like you're confronted with them. And so it could benefit us over the long term to be like, Hey, how does this motion, this big feeling keep getting in the house? Like, where did it come from?

Right. And getting curious about that so that when we're in traffic, it's not just that reoccurring program that's on loop.

Well, that's the word. So you just brought it up then. So this reoccurring program that we're running in our head or some form of belief that we have is usually the beginning of this process. So I have a program that's running in my head. And let's say for the traffic example, the program is that not only should people be very considerate drivers, and inherent in that is considerate according to my definition of consideration.

Right? Not only should they be considerate drivers in the way that I think consideration should be demonstrated, I also don't think that people should, violate my my boundaries in any way. Then you realize, well, that belief or that program is the beginning point for your experience of this moment. And then you can start to look at, okay. Well, where did that belief come from, and and why do I why do I why do I believe it?

And is it serving me?

Right. Why do I have it? Did I put it there? Did somebody else put it there? Did society put it there?

And like you just said, is it serving? Getting curious about it. In that moment of traffic, me getting irritated that somebody cut me off may serve a purpose. It may serve a little bit of a recognition that like, oh, my safety was just violated. Mhmm.

Right? Or like my perception of my safety was just violated. And so it does have its you know, it is a signal, right, that can be beneficial at some point in our lives or at points. But then asking, like, is this always beneficial?

Right. Well, and I've had the experience of, I believe I'm a conscientious driver. And I'm

in the car with you. You are.

Thank you. And and I and I group, learning how to drive in Pittsburgh, which is a very tricky topography. I think it does make for relatively strong drivers. And I have had moments when because of something else, I have cut someone off. And in that moment thinking, oh, if I could, I would explain.

I I didn't mean to do suspect you didn't like it. I could understand why you don't like it, but it was unintentional and, like, here is the reason why I did it or why I had to do it. So having the awareness that, oh, that person's action or behavior may not be consistent with my perception of it. So if every time someone cuts me off, I assume that they are careless or that they don't value me or my safety or my car or my autonomy or, you know, whatever. If I'm always making that assumption, then I might be missing a real humanity there, which, oh, that person is actually a great driver who did not want to do this to me at all.

But it happened anyway because we're in traffic and sometimes that happens.

Yeah. And, like, I think the catch here is or the tricky part is, like, that like, I can I can be in that position and, like, that reaction is still gonna come up? Irritation is still gonna enter my house. Right? It didn't even knock.

It just came in. And so, like, at that point, like, how do I kind of, like, bring in curiosity about, okay, irritation, you are here, and now I would like to very much, like, bring in some calm or, like, something, like, something else in to meet you so that I can now handle this situation, especially in a in a tricky situation like traffic Yeah. Right, where I do want to bring my emotions a little bit more regulated so that I can maintain focus?

Well, I think it's, I think it's dangerous to try to think about bringing in calm. And we've talked about calm, right, to be like, calm becomes a practice. Right? And instead, I think I think what we might wanna do is bring in some perspective. So it is possible that the person who just cut you off is an asshole and that they just don't care.

That is that is a possibility. But it's also possible that it's a totally good person who has any number of other things happening, and and then therefore, maybe would feel less egregious. Right? Maybe it's a mother whose kid in the front seat is about to throw up. This actually happened with me and my mom where I was she was driving, and I was getting carsick, and she was trying to put a paper bag in front of me, while drive you know?

Mhmm. Mhmm. It does not mean that the person can't say, oh, like, you should be more careful.

Yeah.

But it would be, well, am I gonna change my own mood and my my life experience right now based on something like that? So if we know someone is just being neglectful or aggressive or dangerous, then maybe, yeah, we can have that reaction. It's not like any reaction is necessarily bad. But if the reaction is always this really big one, it may be out of proportion. It may be out of context.

Yeah. So I think of when I ride my motorcycle, right? The saying is ride your own ride because I cannot afford to be in my reaction for too long. Like, other people's behavior on the road can be consequential to my life very quickly. And if somebody cuts me off, I have very little time to be in an irritated reaction.

I actually have to, like, coach myself very quickly to remind myself this is my ride, I can't control them, and I have to focus on me. And so I have to bring tools in to calm myself, steady myself, or bring in calm, right? So that I'm not in that reaction. But the reaction happens. I got cut off in traffic.

I'm irritated. But if I stay in that reaction for too long, I could die. Right? I have to ride my own ride. I cannot like, even in that moment, I really can't even, like, bring in too much of consideration of, like, what that person might be doing.

Right? Like, I I cannot afford. I do not have the luxury of time to even contemplate, is this person a asshole and they do this all the time? Or is this person just trying to to help their kid?

Yeah. But you could do that work later.

I could do that work later. Yeah.

We could bring the curiosity to it later. So it's really about starting to understand the patterns that are operating in our lives and especially the ones that create discord, discomfort, and propensity for possible explosive or unskillful engagement. Right? So if I'm really irritated or very angry about something, you know, anger is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's what I do with that anger. So if I'm if I'm getting angry a lot, I don't have the tools to understand how to move that energy or work with it, this is when I can start to make bad choices, bad choices that will have a consequence.

I will tell you, my biological father had a pretty, pretty high level of road rage and a propensity to want to fight and, like, be a tough guy. And he one time, my sister and I were in the back seat. I must have been somewhere between six and eight years old, so she must have been eight to 10 years old. And he got into, like, road rage with a tractor trailer. And I don't even know exactly how it started, but they were both so enraged that they they mutually agreed to pull off into a parking lot to have a physical altercation.

And so the the truck pulls off. My dad pulls off. My dad gets out of the car and opens up the back seat where my sister and I are, like, to grab his little, like, baton thing weapon. And my sister and I were in hysterics, like, just screaming and crying. Like, what you know?

And then I think back to that and be like, oh, you both were so reactive about what was likely getting cut off or or honking more aggressively than someone like I can't remember what it was, but, you know, what I do know is that chances are it wasn't it didn't merit this level, and they almost had a fist fight. The reason they didn't have a fist fight was because my sister and I became so hysterical that something switched in my dad. And he he got back in the car. Remember he drove past it. He was like, you're lucky my kids aren't here, and we drove off.

We were like so so when I tell that story, in addition to I want you all to feel badly for me Mhmm.

Aw. And sounds like a scary situation.

No. Was really, really scary. But but you think about neither of those men were in control. Yeah. They'd given all their control.

And then what were they gonna do? Commit, either a misdemeanor or a felony in public for what? Because in the the for what is I have no idea how to handle this emotion. I have no context or tools. And so what matters to me now is feeling stronger than you Justified.

Justified or righteous.

Like there's something that happened to me and I'm taking it very personally, right? And now I can't rest until I've reclaimed it or I've taken action on it. And that's a situation that is a scary situation to witness. Also a scary situation to be in. I've been there.

I've admittedly been there where I've lost control of my rational abilities and I'm in that full reaction. And many times, when I think about it, it is anger or it's like a really big irritant. And I'm like, oh, I am already way past the point of no return. And it takes a long time to bring yourself back down. It takes a big moment.

Like, my kids are in hysterics to, like, start to snap me out of it.

Yeah. My kids are screaming, daddy, daddy, don't don't do this. Right. Yeah. And then so this is when we think about men's work and when we think about things like, oh, we're gonna do a fifteen minute or a thirty minute chi generator, or we're gonna go into a sweat lodge and do a thing.

And from the outside, you might think, well, that's so intense. Like, what, you know, what is the purpose? You're like, oh, to get to these places so we can start to understand how it feels and how we are in that feeling. You're like, oh, I'm I'm really uncomfortable in this moment. What like, how much agency do I have?

What can I do? And then, you know, of course, in men's work, we have we have tools, and we have guidance, and we have a container, we have other men supporting us. And even if we cross over, as we talked about in previous episodes, we cross over a little bit, we understand we start to get a clearer idea of that that edge, that limit for us because we are working with it in and around it. I think for people who have no idea where their edge is and how to work with it, people will get blown past it. And then they're like, I'm just in unchartered territory.

I have no idea what to do, so what I'm gonna do is fist fight this 18 wheeler, like, truck driver in front of my children because I don't know what else to do.

Yeah. And and, like, that's I'm, like, I'm trying to, like I'm I'm in a couple different movies right now. Like Okay. I'm in the movie of, like, the truck driver, your father, and you as well. I'm like, wow, there's a lot happening here to explore.

There's a lot of heightened emotions. There's a lot of big emotions happening. And I think that one of the things that I talked about in the intro is that may not necessarily Yes, there could be a default program running, but there could also be an unmet need happening here, right? And how an unmet need could cause a big emotional reaction. So I think of you and your sister.

You've had an unmet need of of safety, of assuredness, of certainty. And because that need is not being met, welcome in big emotion. Your father, maybe there's an unmet need for consideration of significance to matter to be considered, not being met, and now all of a sudden in big emotional reaction.

I feel like a lot of it comes from and now beyond this one example, I feel like I've witnessed a lot in in my caregivers, this want or or expectation of respect. And so when when that isn't met, a lot of anger and frustration come up. So I feel like the the majority of the times that I've watched, specifically straight men in my life get angry in these ways, it has been when they feel disrespected somehow, and they don't know how to talk about that, how to self soothe. And so just bursts of frustration come out, and they're probably unaware that, oh, I have a need for significance, one of the six core vet needs. Right?

Significance. I have a need for significance that isn't being met right now, and because of it, I'm about to blow up in a way that is unhelpful for everyone.

Yeah. Having a big emotional reaction to an unmet need. I mean, for me, and that's how I've come to learn about my own emotions through my own therapy and through the studying that I've done of nonviolent communication like that is how emotions arise, right? Both comfortable emotions arise because a need has gone met or unmet. And when we are in a perpetual state of our needs becoming unmet, our default programming starts to become like, how do I get this need met?

And that can come out in sideways, shadowy ways that then results into these programs that run because it's the only way that we know how to get the need met.

Well, and I think we have to then talk about the expectations of needs. Right? So it isn't just is a need being met or not being met. It's also is your perception or understanding of that need influencing it? So, for example, do I believe I need more respect than I actually have earned or or deserve?

Because then I feel like that's a recipe for disaster. Right? To be like, oh, I believe for any number of reasons, I believe that I you know, everyone should respect me. And so when I feel disrespected, that need's not being met. But is that is that a legitimate need?

I don't you know?

Well, I may I may to unpack that a little bit, we might look at it as like, okay. Like, so the story is respect. Right? I'm I'm not I'm not thinking that I when I tell myself that somebody does something a certain way, I'm telling myself that I'm not being respected. And so I do have a need to matter.

I do have a need for significance. Am I telling myself that the only way to get this need met is through this very specific way? Or can I look at the need itself and saying, oh, the kind of big reaction that I have and the way that I tell myself that the only way I can get this need met is to demand or command respect? And when it doesn't hit this certain level, then my need isn't being met. Well, like, can I get a little curious a little bit more about that?

Bit like, okay. How else can I feel significant? You know, in what ways can I feel significant? And starting with myself, first and foremost, how can I how can I help myself to recognize I matter? I'm important.

My voice matters. Mhmm. What I have to say matters. Like, how can I start with me first?

Right. Well, so the but so when you're having the experience of irritation or any big emotion, we have the opportunity to become curious about what need or needs are not being met and what stories do I have around them. Right? And just shining the light of awareness and curiosity onto those things, I think, is already the beginning of the solution. And a softening around, oh, my story is this.

Well, is that you know, this was a thing that we noticed a lot in the circle, the sharing circle this week, was this idea of, oh, that person isn't being considerate. That person isn't being polite. That person isn't, you know, being diligent. That person isn't you know? And I was asking the question, well, is whose definition of that are we going off of?

And and the truth is we're we're almost always going off of, well, they're not being diligent in the way I think diligence should be done. And then with curiosity, you like, well, maybe they're being diligent in their own way. And then the power that comes from that would be, well, maybe I can have a really powerful conversation with them to better understand how they are, who they are, and help them better understand what I need or what is needed in this moment as opposed to jump to a conclusion, have a big feeling, maybe a bad reaction, and chances are either explosive communication or none at all, in which case we're really far away from a solution. Right.

Like when we haven't welcomed each other into our internal environment to let people know what it is we have going on inside of us. Hey, I have this thing that's arising inside of me. And I think right now it's because there's a discrepancy. I'm sensing there might be a discrepancy in the way that we perceive diligence right now. Like, for me, I believe that people should work in this way, right?

And what I'm noticing in you is that you might not be working in that same way, so can we just chat about it for a little bit? Right? But that's like, to get to that point in an irritated or reactionary way is really fucking hard.

Well, if you're having the experience of irritation or the big emotion, then I think it's really tricky, and it requires someone who has done a lot of practice and work around that. And in my case, I would say chances are I would still be taking deep breaths and doing some grounding through my body in order to deliver that. If you're new to it, you might actually have to wait. You might have to take the emotion and go somewhere else and process it or let it, you know, make its way through you before you have that conversation.

And then bringing in some journaling or some sort of, like, way to process, okay, this thing happened, now I want to unpack it a little bit with myself, right? So to get that curiosity going of like, okay, I just had this big reaction. It was around this specific topic. What happened? Where else in my life has this maybe come up before?

And and starting to say, like, like, what's there?

Well, it's funny that you're saying this, like, sort of making me wanna smile because you're talking like a person who does men's work. Right? And so, oh, of course, of course, you're gonna you're gonna you're already really curious about it, and you're and you have these tools and you know? But I think for the people who are interested in starting to do this sort of work and take more control over their lives, and we have to talk about why it's important. And why it's important is because we can be giving a lot of power away, a lot of valuable power and energy to situations that aren't serving us.

And so when we talk about being curious and then journaling, these are all just ways of you better understanding how it is you are so that you become aware of your buttons. It's like I I saw this thing where someone was like, you know, they they just keep pushing my buttons. You know, what am I supposed to do when they push my button? And the person said, they couldn't push your button if the button wasn't there. So the work is yours.

Mhmm. And so so in this conversation, if you're like, oh, I don't wanna, like, journal. It's like, well, if you're walking around with a bunch of buttons that you especially if you don't know that they're there and then people keep pushing them and you keep getting upset, you either have the option to continually sort of roll the dice every day and see if someone pushes a button or not, or you can take a look at your buttons and start to gain control over them. Absolutely. Especially, some of the control is, I see someone getting close to that button.

Maybe I can take action now through through deed, through word, through, you know, behavior to prevent that from even happening.

Welcome in boundary. Yeah. Like, I'm starting to see it and I'm going to create a boundary around that. But that's, yeah, it's all pretty advanced work. And I think that it does, it takes that awakening almost of like, yeah, I do not want to walk around just covered in a bunch of buttons that that literally say, push me, push me, push me.

Right? Like Yeah.

Well, and I think I think it's important to remember. So the big feelings and emotions or experiences are, I think, one sign that we should be curious. But another one is and I wanna be careful because sometimes sometimes I guess this isn't always bad. But when you are so certain that you're right, to me, that's an opportunity to be like, are are there really any other vantage points from which I could view this scenario? Now there are times when I I am right, like, you know, and I think we've all had that, like, I understand what's happening and, you know, justifiable anger is totally allowed.

But the idea that could I consider this from a variety of other perspectives and just that consideration can start to shift. What if what if they didn't mean to be a jerk? What if they didn't mean to be neglectful?

Yeah. And the the fine line here between, like, justifiable anger and and dignance, right, like, being so rooted in something that you're like, I'm not gonna change. Like, I'm gonna like, I am so irritated. I'm so big in my emotion. I am just, like, indignant now.

Yeah. Right? Like, try to change me.

Right. Right. Like, I know what's right, and I'm like, don't try to change my mind.

That's right. You know?

Which can be done, but then often it's like, well, then you're kind of constantly in a conflict. Mhmm. There's there is constantly a good guy, bad guy in that. Because if you're right, then someone else has gotta be wrong. And, you know, we live in a world where sometimes people are right and sometimes people are wrong, but how happy are they?

How content are they? Because, ultimately, some of these things aren't that important. So going back to someone cuts you off in traffic, assuming no one is in, like, danger, it's really not that big a deal.

Right. Like, that's I go back to the motorcycle example. It's not that big of a deal why that person cut me off. What's the biggest deal? Saving my life.

Like, being in my own ride. Is

everyone okay?

Is everyone okay? Yeah. Right? Like, what is my next step? Right?

What is the action that I take? Because the the the longer that I sit in rumination, the less chances that I have to make, like, healthy strategic decisions for my best interest. If I'm just stuck there, like, in indignance, in I need to be right, I need to prove that this person was an asshole for cutting me off, the less time that I have to make a wise decision for myself. That's right. Like, have that is taking my power back.

Right? The more that I sit in rumination, I'm now giving that person power. My power is I'm coming back to me. I can't control what just happened, but I can control what I do next.

Well, it's the let them theory. Mhmm. Yeah. So No. Go ahead.

I was gonna say, Mel Robbins, if you're listening, for whatever chance you're listening, please come on the podcast. We love you.

Yeah. We love you. Please join us. No. But it's it's really it's really, really smart.

Right? The and the Let Them Theory really quickly, it doesn't it doesn't allow for bad behavior, but it really focuses on what can what can I do? And that's really where our power lies. When when I when I stop focusing on what you did or didn't do that I like or dislike and I start focusing on what I'm doing, I've just taken aback an enormous amount of my power.

And it like, that can be really scary. Like, I've been in those situations where, like, I'm scared to take back my power because of the consequences that I'm I'm manufacturing in my head. I'm afraid to stand up for myself. I'm afraid to say the thing. I'm afraid to acknowledge the emotion.

And I just want to stay in that reaction. Sometimes it could be something like, I can just feel so safe there. And then it's like, oh, if take an action right now, that could have a consequence. And am I ready for the consequence? Am I ready to take back my power and what that could mean?

Am I ready, like, for that?

Yeah. I mean, it can be really, really scary. And also, if you think about the alternative, the alternative is betraying yourself a little or a lot in service to a little bit of comfort. It's funny. I saw something that on, I guess, on Instagram.

How do you know that you're on the right path? And the person's response was, you know when you stop betraying yourself or you stop be being put in situations where you are being asked to betray yourself, and instead you're just able to live, you know, in integrity. So it is a practice. I mean, I think we have to remember that it isn't a light switch where we decide, oh, I'm gonna you know, each situation's gonna come up with its challenges, and chances are we're gonna struggle. And I had something recently where I had to think.

I'm like, oh, this is risky for me to speak my truth. But I was thinking about the person that is I'm trying to be and who I'm trying to step into. And I said, well, that person would would compassionately speak his mind here. And so I did it, and it was really scary, and it might have had consequences. But I think that's the risk we have to take.

Step into the full into the fullness. And we've talked about integrity. We had an episode on integrity. But I think, especially around this topic, I think it deserves a little bit more exploration. Being in integrity with ourselves and with others and how that when we are out of integrity with ourselves or others, how that can also create big reactions.

Right? Because you said, like, there's this energy leakage that's happening and giving the power, so can we just stay with that for a

little Well, you know, the thing about integrity is that we will I think we can often think of it as I'm in integrity or I'm not. But it actually becomes this, ebbing and flowing thing where I can say I'm gonna do something. So integrity is upholding the commitments we make to ourselves, upholding the commitments we make to others, living living congruent with our stated purpose, those sorts of things. Right? And so I can say that I'm gonna do something and mean it.

And then some unknown things can pop up, and that can change. And so the practice of integrity then is, hey. Listen. I told you I was gonna have this done by Thursday, and now it turns out. And the the thing about so the practice of integrity is recognizing, so this is when, like, out of integrity.

Like, recognizing when that isn't necessarily gonna be able to come to fruition and then claiming it and then making a new commitment around it, to me, is also integrity. So integrity isn't, I said this, so I have to do it at all costs. Integrity can be, I recognize I made a commitment that I legitimately thought I could do, and now I recognize something has shifted, and I need to make a new commitment with conscious communication around it. To me, that is still integrity.

And that that can happen internally and externally. Right? That that dialogue can happen with ourselves. Like I made this commitment to myself or I said that this is how I want to be and something has popped up. And so I'm going to have this dialogue with myself and kind of renegotiate with myself or at least come up with an alternative that still feels within something that I can achieve and something that feels good for me or good within me.

Right. And then also how we do that externally as well.

And then the the trick there is that you don't allow that ebbing and flowing of the process of integrity to let you off the hook. Mhmm. You have to be really in integrity, you have to be really honest with yourself about, am I am I responding to a thing that is occurring and honoring what is, or am I letting myself off the hook because I'm tired or I'm lazy or I don't want to? And that's a powerful distinction.

Yeah. Acknowledging those truths about ourselves and being able to recognize them and talk about them and communicate them. Yeah. Then, so staying with that for a second, like connecting it back to our topic today of like big reactions or big emotions, like how can being out of integrity like, maybe lead to some of these big emotions or these big reactions?

Well, I mean, I think the one of the main ways would be when someone is out of integrity I'll speak for myself. When I'm out of integrity, I feel disempowered. When I feel disempowered, I'm more susceptible to then feeling like a need isn't being met or relying heavily on these stories that I have or programs I have running in my head about the way things should be so that if it doesn't go that way, I'm susceptible to breakdown or explosion. Whereas when I'm in integrity, there's a groundedness to that. Like, oh, I said I was gonna do this.

I'm doing it. I said I was gonna do that, and I did it. And, like, I said I was gonna and I there's a strength in that. And it's, you know, it's, Carolyn May says, like, that's how we build self esteem. We uphold the commitments we make to ourselves.

And when you do that, you walk around more grounded, less shakable.

Yeah. It's like the more that we can commit to ourselves and the way that we want to be, the way that we want to engage in the world, more frequently we uphold that. Yeah, like I'm still working on it. I'm definitely still working on it on daily basis. And I can already tell, like, as I come more into integrity with myself and I understand the man that I want to be.

And that's key too is that, like, being in integrity is going be different for every person. We're all going to have a little bit of a different way of looking at it. And it's a very personal thing. Like, what does it mean for me? Who's the man that I want to be?

Who's this person that I want to be in the world? And what are the actions and decisions and behaviors that I'm exhibiting that get me closest to that so that I can be a little bit more grounded in my everyday.

Well, this is why when we start to practice integrity with other, it becomes important then to communicate what integrity means to me and what it means to them. Mhmm. So that I can start to have a clearer idea of, well, how if I make a commitment to that person, what what are they expecting, and what can I say or do to either meet that expectation or to let them know that I'm going to meet it in a different way? And it becomes conscious conversation.

Yeah. And and creating that that interdependence between two people. And it's like, Oh, we both have our best interest at heart and each other's best interest at heart. And we're just trying to help each other meet needs when we can and hopefully not get to big reactions as frequently.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we can all agree that when we're in a big emotion or a big reaction, specifically when they are negative or uncomfortable, we're not we're probably not having a lot of fun. We're probably not at ease. We're probably not grounded, and we would like to minimize that experience.

So this is why this work is so important because I feel like minimizing this experience isn't standing at a craps table and hoping for a good roll of the dice. Right? Minimizing the experience is creating the causes for what we wanna see in the world. So we you know, you're a gardener and you want tomatoes. Well, then you better plant tomato seeds and then tend tomato seeds the way tomato seeds need to be tended.

So this is sort of like a like a thing about karma now. We we can take conscious actions to help us avoid these situations, and that one of those actions is shine the light of awareness and curiosity on the the patterns in your life where you end up feeling these things most frequently. So whether it's the person who cut you off, in the car, whether it's the person who talks over you, you know, in conversation, whatever the thing is, you have to first look at what is operating in you. And then, you know, the conscious man can bring conscious conversation. At some point, when when you feel grounded and steady enough, you could say to that person who keeps talking over you, oh, I think Mel Robbins just talked about this.

You can say something to them in a respectful but strong way, But you're that's gonna be nearly impossible if you are mired in your own reaction. If you're so angry or hurt or upset or sad or whatever, it is almost certainly not gonna come out powerfully. It's gonna come out sideways or lacking a certain amount of skill.

Right. The the dagger is going be very much pointed out. Right? It's like, I'm I'm trying to come at you. Right?

And justify it or whatever it might be versus saying, okay, can I bring compassion? Can I bring empathy first and foremost for myself? There's something happening. Coming inward, coming inward, coming inward, what is happening? Why am I reacting this way?

And then being able to say, okay, what is it that I may be needing in this moment? And then being able to bring that into conversation and put in a request to somebody or create a boundary around it as compassionately as can be possible in that moment. Yeah. I want to go back to needs because I think we have a lot of, like, circles happening. We have needs, we have judgment, we have emotions, we have big reactions, we have, like, a lot of things kind of swirling around.

And I think one of the things that I've noticed most in the men's groups that I've been a part of is this challenge to articulate needs, to actually communicate what is it that we are needing in any given moment. And I'm curious for you, like, why do you think that is? Why do you think men, in particular, have such a hard time communicating what it is that they need?

Because I think communicating a need is recognizing a vulnerability. And I think that we grew up in a time when, like, most of our heroes don't like, the images, I don't really need anything. I've already got everything I need, and I'm I'm in charge, and I know what to do, and I'm gonna find the solution. And that is this thing we're all striving for, I think many of us are striving for. So if I were to come up to you and say, I recognize that I have a need for I'm gonna speak I'm gonna self disclose everyone who's watching.

Like, I I need to feel significant because, you know, when I was a kid, I didn't. So just admitting that is a vulnerability. Right? And then so if someone if some manipulative, like, angry, like, evil cat stroking, like, villain in my life wanted to, they could create scenarios in which I didn't feel significant if they you know? So I have to I have to recognize that it exists.

I have to own that I that I need it, which then is letting you know there's a vulnerability here. And then I would have to have some vocabulary around how to say it and how to and how to ask for it. Right? So the need for significance can, as an example, look very different for different people. And, you know, love languages, like, one of the things words of affirmation are is one of my love languages.

Right? So when I want to feel significant or when I want someone to reassure me that I am significant to them, I'm often wanting it in one way. That isn't necessarily so then we would have to kind of know, well, how how do I even accept this need? What would I even ask for? What do have to be aware of?

Like, oh, if you could if you could just remind me from time to time that, like, I matter to you. Or someone else doesn't want that at all. They want they want to, they want you to make them dinner. And, like so satisfying the same need, but coming in a different way. So it requires an understanding of self.

There is a need. I'm willing to claim that need, and then I'm I'm aware of myself enough to know the ways in which that need can be satisfied for me, and then I can communicate that to the people I need to communicate it to. So that's a lot of stuff if you haven't if you haven't ever done it.

Right. And sometimes it's like like the the vocabulary may not be there, but the bodily sensation might be.

The loneliness, the emptiness, is that what you mean?

Yeah. And how does a big reaction, right? Like when I'm feeling insignificant, right? And I'm starting to feel like I don't matter to people, what starts to come up is anger. I get angry.

Then I sometimes get a little bitey. And sometimes I can be accusatory. And sometimes I can start to say things that can be hurtful or misconstrued as a way of like I'm trying to attack somebody. And so that's what I'm curious about, right? Is that like, you know, on your journey of understanding that you have this specific need and one of the ways in which you can get that need met is through a love language of yours, words of affirmation, and the ability to request that of people to help you meet that need.

Like, the curiosity is, like, before you had that, right, what were some of the things that may have been happening, you know?

Yeah. I think I would have a big feeling, and I would have a story around that feeling, and then would get angry, and oftentimes that angry would be some version of silent punishment. Right? It would be, I'm gonna withdraw. I'm gonna become nonresponsive.

And, obviously, people do that with the hope of, well, I hope you notice that I'm not there anymore. I hope that, like, you start to recognize the importance that I had because now you're missing it and, you know, And then and then I had I had the experience in my life a few times where I remember thinking, oh, I was mad at that person for doing this thing, and now I'm doing a similar thing in a different situation, it didn't necessarily mean if it like, if what they were doing is what I am doing, then it didn't mean what I thought it meant. So there are, again, some perspective on when I'm certain it means exactly what I think it means, I'm probably in a danger zone. Because if we're dealing with another person, there's a high probability that they have a different perspective of the same thing. So, you know, Vastu Samyajitabhata Thayaurabhavakta Pantaha, the yogic teaching of emptiness.

You know, the object being the same, but the mind stuff being different. The perceiver will project onto that object the content of its mind. And so we can say with a lot of certainty, chances are we we're having a different experience of this thing, and that is a powerful moment. So maybe they're, you know, maybe they're not doing this the the thing your story is telling them. Well, I used to get really attached to this is what it would mean for me, so it must mean that for you.

And the truth is, like, a lot of times, if I had done the thing that they were doing, it might have meant that for me. It almost certainly would have meant that for me. That does not mean that it meant that for them.

Thank you very much for letting me in. We got there. We got there. And I just I'm very appreciative. And I think it's your work that you've done is incredible.

When I talk to you and I see how much and I experience how much awareness you bring into conversation and the way that you engage, I find it really admirable.

Wow, thank you. And

that's where my intention came from with that exploration was like just wanting to see kind of what the journey was like and bring that out to help others see as well that, like, you know, this is a journey. It does take time and, like, there is components. Go ahead.

Yeah. So in my, you know, my childhood, was no permission for big emotions generally from from children, unless we were, like, very sad or if we were hurt. Otherwise, we were supposed to just be grateful, and so there was no room for anger, irritation, frustration, edges, any of that kind of, you know, stuff. And so I got really adept at kind of pushing down and ignoring. I think a lot of people can relate to that.

Right? Because I think very few of us were modeled, oh, you're having a big emotion right now. You know, that must be uncomfortable. And, like, that kind of So so it takes a lot of practice to start to undo that. So, you know, you then suddenly, I'm in New York City at 18 or 19 years old without having practiced any of these things, and I'm trying to navigate adult relationships, and I am completely incapable of asking like, recognizing what my needs are, asking to have them met, trusting that someone can meet them, having vocabulary to articulate them, all these sort of things.

And so it took, what, twenty six years more to find language and the confidence to speak it and say you know? And then and then also, I think what's really important about this is that when you've like, when you have a need and it comes out unskillfully, then you're you're met with that same sort of energy. So then you're also sort of incentivized to be like, oh, well, it just came out sideways. I because I don't know how to say it skillfully, and so now that person's mad at me. And then you might get the message, well, then you shouldn't say things like that because then people get mad at you.

Mhmm. And then it incentivizes you to keep it bottled up more. And, again, so why is men's work important? Because we create communities in which these conversations are the norm. And the understanding is that we can have a tough conversation, even a sharpening conversation, something that is directive.

As long as it has heart, we can have the conversation. It can be uncomfortable, and our relationship isn't gonna crumble because of it. And I think that's the thing that's really missing in a lot of parts of the world and interactions is that trust. I I can be irritated with you and still love you. Yeah.

I can be I can dislike something that you did but still value you deeply in my life. And and I have a skill set to bring it to you so that you become aware of it. You learn more about me. I learn more about you. And with the trust that it isn't gonna blow up our relationship because I'm coming with a lot of heart.

So that's why this concept in men's work of sacred dick, you know, that that guy, it's like like, he comes sharply and calls out the thing, but he does it with a lot of heart. Without the heart, you're just an asshole. But with the heart, you're you're the catalyst for growth. You are the sacred dick, not just a dick. And and it's really powerful.

And when we step into that, you know, steel sharpened steel, that's why we do men's work. I'm gonna reflect back what happened, and it's uncomfortable. It's really uncomfortable, but it also passes quickly. And then we're better and stronger on the other side because

of it. And what it inspires from there. Right? Like, you being a strong man in my life has inspired me, and I trust that it has inspired many others. Actually, I know this.

I've been told this many times. It is an inspiration to see a man who has done and is doing that is an ongoing thing, the work, and who shows up so powerfully in engagement and is willing to get a little uncomfortable with a lot of heart. And it it does like, it inspires. So very appreciative and grateful for that.

Well, I mean, I'm appreciative. Thank you for that reflection. That's really sweet. But also, I'm appreciative for this work and for the for the teachers and leaders who have come before us. Right?

So in the men's workspace, you know, Amir Kalighi, Zappa Raka, John Weineland, David Data. You know? And but then also in the lineages of, like, these yogic and shamanic, you know, practices to help us create this because it is mutually beneficial. We all really we all really need it. And I think I think when I was a kid, I thought every conflict could potentially derail all the relationships that matter to me.

And so then I had to start to contort myself and and betray myself in in pursuit of making sure that the thing I needed didn't fly away, whether, you know, my mom or, you know, someone to care for me or whatever. And this work encourages us to show up as fully as we can and and and meet people with that and be met by that. And that to me is healing salve that our world needs now so much. We need it so much because the alternative are these blustery signs of inauthentic power that we unfortunately have a lot of examples of currently right now. I'm gonna I'm gonna flare up.

I'm gonna pound my chest. I'm gonna, you know, snarl and show bare my teeth and, you know, as opposed to I'm gonna show up and tell you, I really didn't like that. Can we have a conversation about this? That is power. So when we talk about men's work, we're talking about real power.

Power about power about influencing your life so that you are more authentic, you are more content, you have deeper, more meaningful connections, and connections that you can trust. Trustable connections.

Beautifully said, trustable connections that can be resistance to when it is so tempting to betray ourselves or betray others, And staying in integrity, to be stable and be in integrity to avoid the self betrayals or the betrayals to others so that we can lead with heart. And it's a journey, it's a road, a long road to get there. I think though that the things that we talked about today are important steps towards that. Recognizing that big emotions, they do happen. They're not going anywhere.

They're not going anywhere. Yeah. Asking ourselves though, does it need to be this big? Does it need to be this frequent? Is this serving me?

If no, okay. Why might I be getting into this scenario over and over again? Why might this big reaction be happening over and over again at this scale, at consistency? And then digging a little bit deeper. Okay.

Like, I see the program. I see what's happening here. Is there something else? Is there an unmet need here? Is there something that I'm out of integrity with and really starting to sharpen ourselves so that we can be the most full part of ourselves or the fullest that we can be out into the world to then love and lead with the heart and sharpness sometimes with heart.

I'm feeling very complete with this episode. How are you feeling? I feel complete as well. Alright. Well, thank you very much for your insights and sharing all of your experience with us today.

Appreciate it. Can you take us out, please?

Yes. So as we leave this sacred circle of exploration, awareness, insight, I wish everyone safety, community, brotherhood, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.