Seeing Ourselves in Others: Gregory Ganymedes on The Power of Projection in Dreams and Life

Welcome back to The Circle, the podcast where we go all in on men's work, embodiment practices, and personal growth from our queer perspective. If If you haven't already, please be sure to like, subscribe, and leave us a review. Today, we're joined by Gregory Ganymedes, a dream worker and facilitator focused on exploring the intersection of queer identity and the subconscious through dreams. He leads the Queer Men's Virtual Dream Circle, a space where queer men gather to share, interpret, and engage about their dreams as a tool for self discovery and healing. Today, we're talking about projection and how it shows up within our dreams and our everyday life.

Tim, Gregory, are you ready to go all in?

I'm ready.

Ready as ever.

Alright. Let's do this. So I'm gonna admit, I'm a novice here. So when we talk about projection in our dreams or even projection in our everyday life, like, what are we talking about, Gregory? Can you give us a a couple sentence overview of what projection is?

Yes. Of course. And from this is my own understanding, that when we're talking about projection, we're talking about something that we don't know we're doing. It is completely unconscious. There are behaviors.

There are stories, histories, people, personas in our lives that we consider are in line with who we are and attributes of ourselves that we say are ours and things that we say are not us and not ours. And when it comes to projection, this is when we see other people out there in the world, close relationships, parasocial relationships, and everything in between. And we have a very strong feeling response to the behavior that the appearance of a person, any sort of thing that is presented in front of us. It elicits this very strong response.

So it's like a reaction to something that I'm seeing. And maybe a subconscious thing that I'm not even aware of it, but there's a stimulus. And then all of a sudden I have a reaction and I have a feeling from that stimulus.

Yeah. But I'm curious. I'm sorry. I'm gonna the reaction is the is the the awareness that the projection is happening. Is the projection the judgment?

Like, in the example of you see someone dressed a certain way, which part of the which part of that is projection?

Great question. The part that is projection is the part that you don't know that you yourself don't want to own that is a part of you. For in the example of someone who is wearing something, like you said, Tim, that we find is hideous or offensive in some sort of way.

Let's use my maroon sweatshirt.

It's not hideous, but but but like, let's just say,

like, we're talking about my maroon sweatshirt. You you're walking down the street and you see my maroon sweatshirt.

Or let's just say perhaps I'm walking down the street. I see you in your maroon sweatshirt, and I say, what is that grown man doing wearing that shade of color out here in public where there are children around? I don't want my son. I don't want my kids, my nephew to think that maroon is an acceptable color for a man to wear. So the projection there is anti feminine, super masculine gender role bullshit that we're always dealing with, and we internalize it so much.

And we feel self righteous, that we feel like I need to correct that or I need to point out that error. I need to point out the speck in my neighbor's eye. Whereas there's a huge log in my eye, which is I'm not comfortable. I'm not secure enough with my feminine attributes that I would be willing to wear a maroon hoodie out there on the street.

The idea is that we're that we are potentially, and I I suspect most of us are, walking around with these preconceived notions and ideas, many of which were handed to us. And then if we believe them Yeah. If we believe them so fully that they are sort of the programs running in the background that we're not even aware of because they're so intertwined into our experience. And so I take that, and then I'm moving through the world. And so I start to have feelings and opinions and judgments about the world around me based based on these things.

So I could say, I think maroon is a bad example because I it looks so good. And, you know, but, like, but, like, if maroon were to not be, I'm basically letting this program run-in the back of my mind that says maroon isn't for men. And then my projection is you shouldn't be wearing that. It looks bad on you. It's inappropriate here.

All of those things are, like, the projection based on this program running. And if I'm unaware of the program, it just feels like I'm defending what I've been told is the status quo, like the like the sort of understood agreement that we all have even though none of us ever really agreed to it. Is that am I hearing you right?

You nailed it. And, of course, that's just one form of it. These things can be as big as gender norm stuff, and it can be very trivial stuff as well, not nearly as big in social as what we were just kind of, raising up right now, or it could be even bigger, when it comes to politics, religion, race, that stuff. So it it runs the gamut. But, yes, essentially, these sorts of problems that we should be dealing with in ourselves that the other person out there had like, they're not part of it at all.

It's purely our own stuff that we're putting onto it. And it could be a stranger on the street that is subject to our projection. It could also be people who are very intimately, involved in our lives that we're projecting onto and most of the time it is the people who are, you know, We're seeing day to day our family, our friends co workers and of course those were, lovers and and spouses Hot bed for projection right there and also with that in mind projection is not always a bad thing. We project things that we don't feel are part of ourselves or that we are not us that are valuable, or that are really attractive, and we will project that onto another person.

Can you give an example of that what sounds like a more beneficial version of projection?

Sure. One of my favorite queer out there among many, and please do not feel slighted if I don't mention all of them. But one of them who is at the forefront of my mind right now is Lil Nas X. He just released some new music, and I'm just gushing over it and I'm bopping to it. He released a song called hot box, I think and This person to me, like, he could release literally anything, and I'd be like, that's a bop.

I will love whatever he comes out with. I will love whatever he's wearing. I will love whatever he has to say no matter how controversial it is just because I'm like, I admire this person. He's so talented. He says exactly all the things that I wish a lot of young queer artists would say.

And so, like, these are, like, projections of mine because, like, of course, this person is a fallible person. Of course, he's gonna do things that are bad, but I'm just, like, putting him on a pedestal.

So I wanna I wanna break this down even further if you're open to it. I feel like the he's so talented. He's so admirable. That is the projection, but it is coming from, you were saying, this this conception in your mind. Right?

So can you talk about, like, what you're believing that leads you to admiration or or recognition of talent or any of these things?

Oh my god. Yeah. You're asking the great questions. So I happen to be a musician myself. I'm a classically trained musician.

And so these are the sort of things that I aspire to, a level of artistry that breaks the mold, that gets people's attention, that really puts something into the world that hasn't been there before or is unique in that sort of really, I don't know, impactful way. That's something I've always strived to do when I'm performing either whether it be like in someone's living room or on a stage somewhere. And so I think I have my own insecurities about the level of success that I've had as a performer. I know by listening to the podcast that, you guys are involved in performing arts as well, so that's cool. You might know it.

Catch on. Pick up what I'm putting down. So I think that's part of the projection tour. It's like, have this idealized version of what I always wanted to be, what I always wanted to do. And then when I see someone out there doing it, of course, I could feel jealous about it, but there's also a sort of project a positive projection where I'm like, this person can do no wrong because they're just giving it all to me that I've always wanted.

I think that's so beautiful. So just I feel like I feel like so there's this there's this idea of of your talent, what you were wanting, and and now it sounds like you you have a lot of things you could project. So you were projecting admiration, for his talent, but you could also have projected jealousy, envy. You know? So so that's I think that's helpful to understand this, this idea of, like, this underlying belief and then and then what we bring to our experience from that belief.

Is that what you're also hearing?

I am. There's within that projection as well. So by us projecting admiration onto somebody, that is potentially helping us to elevate ourselves to say, Oh, I admire this person so much, they're now inspiring me, so I now can uphold that same standard for my own craft. If it is music, right? If I'm admiring a musician, I can leverage that.

I can leverage that projection as a motivation to get better at my own craft. But at what point does that projection of admiration also become the pedestal status where we've now put this person on the pedestal and now what if they do wrong? Right? Like, how does that projection that was maybe a positive in trying to build them up and building up ourselves now become a potential negative?

Yeah. I think the key thing here is that so much about projection is unconscious. The fact that I could pull out an example like this and just be like, this is what's happening. That's very convenient for me to be able to do that. However, I'm sure there are examples that I can't provide you because I just don't know that I'm doing it.

I I almost I almost apologized when I said that because, like, based on the definition of projection that we've come up with so far, I realized I'm asking you to identify for us right now in real time a thing you might be unconscious of.

Yeah. Yeah.

But So I'm sorry about that, and thank you for being able to, do it.

But I

think this is a beautiful moment now of recognition of the work that you have done to be able to become conscious of these projections and then ask the question, is this serving me? Is this conscious if I'm bringing awareness to this projection, which had been a subconscious behavior, like, by me bringing awareness to it, I'm also bringing curiosity and questioning, is this a positive or a negative projection for me right now? And so I'm curious about, like, what are some of the ways in which we can become a little bit more aware of these projections?

Thank you. And thank you for, like, tapping into that because, yeah, this is kind of complicated, and you can only talk about what you know. I only know what I know. And there's so much going on that from my day to day, that's happening in the background, and I just have no idea about it. And sometimes you just gotta get smacked in the face with it.

So how that happens? In my definition, my very rambling, winding definition about what projection is, there's the very strong feeling that comes from it. I think that's a telltale sign that there is a projection happening. Again, it could be an overwhelming feeling of lust or desire where you just see someone and you're just, like, gobsmacked by just how much you want them. Like, you just want to possess them and have them all to yourself.

And it just you're just kind of knocked out. Like, nothing else matters. You just see this this person and and you're just at a loss. Like, the whole world stops. That's actually kind of projection because the feeling is just so much.

I think about the example that we were using about, like, you know, my hoodie, maroon hoodie, and, like, the the kind of, like, persona that you put on about, like, you're that person who sees me walking down the street and is like, how dare you wear maroon? It's like, when you were talking about that, I could feel what self righteousness feels like or righteousness feels like in my body. And it's like this beam in my forehead. So now I'm aware that if I'm projecting righteousness out into the world, I have a feeling that might be associated with that. So I'm like, oh, like, so now I can see, like, as I'm going about my day, like, where there might be that projection coming up.

I think the beam coming out of your forehead is quite an apt, vision for that because you could have a beam coming out of the top of your head, which goes straight up to a transcendent world. However, your beam is coming right in front of your forehead and who's out there in front of you receiving the ends of that? Beam that's right in front of your face. Yes, if you see someone or someone says something sometimes That just really gets to you. It gets under your skin and sometimes, you know, we all have those moments where it's like, I don't know what it is about that person, but they just rubbed me the wrong way.

Of course, that's like your intuitive function. That's that's something in your psychology that's saying, I can't quite put my finger on it. However, I'm sensing something. I'm picking up something that I just can't quite get on board with. That is also a little bit of of a projection happening to there.

It seems to me based on what you just said, and I I I can feel myself getting excited thinking about this because I I think intuition is so interesting and powerful. It feels like one way I could or one could deepen their intuition and start to trust it more is if they are able to make if they're able to discern between intuitive pings and projections. So it sounds like the more work we do to recognize so I I have to imagine based on their nature that we might not ever be fully aware of all of our projections. But, like, just even being mindful, like, oh, these exist for me and everyone else, and I should look at them, then I might be able to make a distinction between am I projecting based on a previously held belief, or is this an intuitive ping? Because I do think that person who rubs us the wrong way is sometimes, you know, this idea like, my grandmother told me, you were not supposed to do that, and that's annoying to me.

And sometimes it is an intuitive they're not in alignment with what it is you're wanting or who it is you're being. And those two things feel really different, And it feels like there's valid choices to be made in each, but you'd have to know. You have to be aware. And that, like so, like, why is men's work important? Oh, so maybe we can start to understand these things a little bit.

I have to imagine that happens in the dream circle too, right, where you start to get a little bit more clarity about, oh, where do I tend to project? And so on that, I guess a quick follow-up question then is, do you find the projections become sort of habitual in some way? I have to imagine that they do.

Yes. Absolutely. Again, because we just don't know what's happening most of the time. It's a very introspective process to become conscious of a projection, especially when it comes to very close relationships in our lives, because we have these these, memories and these associations with people in our lives, that shape how we think about them. And we are displacing parts of ourselves onto those people unknowingly.

And then to really stop and think, why do I really feel this way about this person? What is it about me that's making me So angry when they do this to me or when they say this to me. What is it in me that reacts that way? What is that part of myself that like you're saying tim either I was taught to To throw away or to distance myself from or to kind of dissect from myself either you were taught it or you just kind of naturally did it because maybe you're a people pleaser and it's not so much that you were taught you were told like, no, don't do that, but you learned that by doing this other thing people would respond more positively positively, and so you kind of disowned these other things of yourself. You see it happening in other people.

It gets you upset. And then instead of saying, I hate that bitch, you say, wait, that person has absolutely nothing to do with these feelings that I have towards them. What is this really about? That's the moment where you can withdraw the production projection. And sometimes that can be a very painful experience when you withdraw these parts of yourself that you're putting out onto other people, claim ownership from of them, and realize that this is really something that you have to deal with.

I think that's a really important word there, ownership, by bringing on in curiosity, first of all, awareness. Awareness that a projection exists based off of this intense feeling that you might be feeling. So in my case, it was the laser beam coming out of my forehead. Was like, okay, now I have a feeling that I am now aware of. So let me bring in curiosity about this projection.

Like, what is it about this person that might be inciting something inside of me? And then taking ownership of like, that person is not doing this to me. I am doing this. And what about me, right, is having a reaction. And then I can use my my awareness then of like, is this serving me to be in this relation or is this person not for me?

Right? So kind of going back to like the intuitive ping that you were talking about, that it can be a defense mechanism as well to say like, okay, I need to separate myself from this. Right? So I think that just gives us a lot of things to look at inside of ourselves while not putting it on the other person.

Well, feels like our power is really in taking responsibility for what is ours. And then because those are the things that we can look at and chain. So I keep thinking about the like, you start dating someone and you're not exclusive and, you know, some people feel like, oh, but intuitively we should sort of only be dating each other. And you realize this person might be dating someone else and you think that's probab that's projection if you're having a feeling about that, but then you get to decide, can I live with like, what what is it that I'm needing and wanting? But it is a very introspective process that makes it about what it is you need and what it is you're aware of and has very little to do with the other person, especially has very little to do with making the other person wrong.

Right? It's all about what choices do I make to serve the person I'm trying to be. Yeah. So there feels like a lot of value in that process, I imagine.

Yeah. And something I'd like to just kind of tack on the end of that is, I'm not a specialist in attachment theory, but I think that comes into play too with projection. I haven't really rounded out this thought very well, but, that's part of it too. Like, our attachment styles, everyone has a different attachment style based on their own personal history. And when it comes to relationships and projection, that aspect attachment styles and and what serves you in your need or disdain for attachment.

Oh, yeah. That's that's that's right there.

Alright. So let's take this into the dream world. Right? So we talked a lot about, like projections in the real world, right? And how we can leverage our awareness and curiosity to do some deep introspective work.

Now let's talk about our dreams. How can men start to bring in that same awareness and curiosity into the dreams to see where projection might be and what that might be telling us?

Hell yeah. I was holding on to this part two to your your question of how do we know what that we're projecting? Part one is the feeling, but part two is actually the dreams too. Our dreams will tell us exactly what's happening when we are projecting, because these are the parts of ourselves that they can only express themselves through what we are feeding it. So the people that we know, the places that we've been, these are these are the kind of stock characters and and settings that we provide to these unconscious parts of ourselves that when we dream, they can put those on and then look right back at us.

And so in a projection like a positive sort of projection, I very often have dreams where, I'm working with Female co worker of mine who I who I know in waking is very much like a trusted confidant here to myself like someone who I feel is a true, like, comrade to me. Very and very often it it is a woman. And so I know in dreams when I'm dreaming about this particular coworker and working with her, because it's always her for some reason for me, it's it's this really nice way of saying, I really do like working with this person, and I really do trust them. And I also need to trust myself. I also need to have that that relationship in in an interior way.

I'm throwing this out at this person, and when I close my eyes and that part of myself wants to step forward, it puts on this this persona for me. And that's that's a positive. That's a nice sort of projection and it prompts me to say, what is it about, my coworker that I really do admire and that I really do like and how can I pull that into my own my own work in the office or in my relationships or in being a good coworker with other people?

So in that example, like, the the dream is speaking to you and you're listening, and then you're getting curious about like, okay, like, it's speaking this thing to me. It's presenting this character to me. Let me bring in a question of like, why is this person presenting themselves? What is it about this person that is eliciting? Because in the dream, like, can you imagine that you were having a positive feeling in the dream and that was an indicator that this is a positive character, that this might be a positive projection?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I've I've even had dreams with these coworkers where they'll be like, the good female coworker and then the bad female coworker in the same dream. And I'm thinking of one in particular where it starts out where I'm kind of working with the bad female coworker, and I'm just trying my best to, like, stay on top of my work and don't let anything fall through the cracks.

Don't give her any, like, ammunition to use against me because she's out to get me or whatever. And then I see my good coworker, you know, after having, you know, gone above and beyond for the bad one, and I just see her and we just hold each other and we like give each other a big bear hug. We're like, oh my god. I didn't know you'd be here. We like hug each other.

So yeah. A % the feeling is there.

Yeah. So there's a distinct feeling between that that one character to the other character and then being able to kind of like develop that relationship. And again, being curious of like, why are you here right now? Like, what what message do you have for me? And and getting curious about that.

Well, and just so that I taking it back one step. There in order for it to be a projection based on the definition that we gave earlier, there's still an underlying belief. Right? And so I guess I'm curious, like, the good and the bad coworker are projections coming from that same belief. Is is that belief your idea of what it means to be a good coworker?

Such a good question. Dang. Yes. It it is that. It is also my own sense of inherent value in myself, I think, that I'm projecting onto my coworkers when and I think that dream in particular, to kind of really really try to get this out there cohesively.

That dream it just juxtaposed the two of them to say, here is a coworker, the bad one. In waking life, I feel like this coworker does not value me. And so when I don't value me, I get defensive. I feel vulnerable and I want to lash out or I want to just run away. I don't want them to see me.

I don't want any attention drawn to me by this bad coworker because I don't trust them. But this is my own projection of my own insecurity of how how much value I'm providing to my work environment and how much of a, a competent employee I am. Whereas the good coworker is a reassurance of my value and my competence. And without having me have to prove myself with a track record and my yearly review process, this person just naturally saw the inherent value in me as a fellow human being, you know, without all of the the data. It's important.

The parts of me that there are parts of okay. There are parts of me that are biased towards that. I'm a person who feels that it is better for people to value each other regardless of what the other person provides society, a workplace, the family. I don't care. Every person matters and has value.

And then there are parts of me that I have distance from myself that says, some people are of more value than others. Some people have more power over other people. And when I am presented with opportunities or situations where I am in power over an or I have some sort of power dynamic with another person, I have an advantage of that. I can kind of I don't know. This is my unconscious point now.

I don't know what happens, and I have to work on that, because this is part of myself that I've really cut off.

Well, so it sounds like the like the the good coworker, bad coworker example, those feel like value judgments, right? Based on what you mentioned earlier, like this bias of what you think is good or bad, it also then sounds like each of these characters are representing something that is true. Like, because, you know, like things things that you are capable of doing, ways that you are capable of being. And so so then part of that projection is, well, I like it when I'm these things, and I don't like it when I'm these things. I like it when other people are these things, and I don't like it when other people are these things.

And therefore, now I've projected on to you characters in my dream, bad and good. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I know that, like, I'm new to this, so I want to, like, nuts and bolts. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

I love it. And thank you, Gregory, for being so vulnerable with, like, letting us into this experience and presenting these biases for us, right? They're very relatable. I can relate to them and I'm sure many people can. And so I just want to thank you for allowing us in to this experience and the strength to have done the inner work to get to this point.

I just want to recognize that, right? Like this is not easy. What Gregory just did letting us in like that and being so self aware, right? Like I strive for that, Right? And you're here presenting it as a really powerful way of like taking ownership again, going back to this word of ownership.

You're taking ownership of there is a bias in you of like, you have a certain way that you believe people should be treated, but you also recognize there's this other part of you. Right? That may be a little bit, like, shadowier and a little bit more, like, whatever it might be. And it's, just, like, saying, like, hi. I see you.

I haven't fully explored you yet, but like, I'm going to. And so I just I just love that and I love, you know, the the awareness that you brought to us. So

thank you.

Well, this is an example of the importance of men's work, right, so that we start bringing awareness, conscious awareness to these parts of us. And then I think why queer men's work is also so important because I think we have been given a lot of notions that we might be walking around with. These programs that might be running unconsciously about, like, what it is or how it is we're supposed to be. And I think that we see that, you know, manifest in a lot of different ways. And so I know that there has been a lot of projection in our queer community about, like, well, if you're gonna be gay or if you're gonna be queer, like, you should do it this way and that, like, this is this way is better than this way or, you know, and I think it's not until right now that I was really hit with, oh, that's that's, you know, a lot of projection and something that we could look at and be like, well, is that just because I've been told, you know, or that I felt safe in in this way so then I like, that became a program that I started running.

And so it feels like it's opening up the like, a a lot of possibility for healing when we become aware of, oh, maybe I'm not mad at that person because they've chosen to dress, in a very different way than I am dressing. Maybe maybe I'm just noticing that it's bumping up against an old pattern. And when I become aware of that pattern, I get to decide, is that serving me? Do I want to keep this anymore? And I would say,

have

to imagine that it isn't like a it's not like turning off the record player, right? Be like, I see the record spinning and I have to keep reminding myself because it's gonna keep playing until until I break that habit, right? So this feels all like really empowering, if if not maybe a little daunting.

And I'm really I'm really glad that you brought up that word healing because as I hear you both talking about, you know, the mandate to take ownership of these parts of ourselves. These are really painful, really vulnerable, sad, lonely parts of ourselves. And so it's not so much that okay. It is a both end. It is a both.

Yes. We are causing harm to other people in our projections unknowingly to ourselves. And we have been harmed ourselves, which is what can be behind the projection. And so like what you were just lifting up, Tim, is that, again, with the example of someone changing the way they dress. You've come to know this person.

You rely on them. The version of them that you've known for all these years. There's something about that person and the way they look that does something for you that gives you some sort of sense of validation or affirmation. And then when they change, it's gone. And suddenly you're faced with that.

That person is still that person. What was it about the way that they were presenting to you that you were able to lean on that? That it it gave something to you that you needed, that you couldn't get yourself, that you couldn't produce within yourself, that you needed that other person to provide you with that visual or that that constancy. Now that it's gone, where is it gonna come from? Suddenly that relationship has changed.

And it's up to you to realize, wow, this person is authentically an autonomous, fully rounded human being and not just a character in my story.

That's really powerful because as I was sitting with that example of the allowance of somebody to change and shift, my projections are a way for me to maintain consistency and order in my life. And so if I'm projecting out onto somebody this certain image and then all of a sudden that image changes, that can create an incredible amount of insecurity in my life, an incredible amount of uncertainty, unsafety, something could shift. If I was dependent on that thing to be consistent and I don't have a relationship with change that I can allow for things to change and shift and be that. And for people to be their own beings and not just be characters in my life, like, yeah, I can definitely see how this can be hard, lonely, scary work.

I mean, I have to imagine that our projections, that one of the purposes that they serve was to keep us safe. Right? Is is that is that a possibility? I mean, it sounds to me like we got we we were given an understanding of the world, and maybe we were projecting onto people around us because that's what we thought was gonna keep us safe.

Yeah. Whether it was explicit or not, something was programmed into us to say that this part of you should be rejected. And then if you see it in other people, you should chastise them. When it comes to I mean, I've had to deal with this when it comes to ableism with the word healthy. I come from a family of of, you know, professionals from the health world and to kind of relearn what it means to let a person be healthy in the way that that is right for them and not just to mandate for them and say, okay.

Well, if you do not fit in this box, then you are not healthy. And then I have the right to then chastise you for doing whatever, eating whatever, or not going to whatever fitness program. That's just another sort of flavor of projection. So this is something that was ingrained in me that I'm projecting out there that I had to kind of withdraw and say to myself, okay. Stop.

Stop getting so upset about these about these things. This is really about me. This is about me. But we also have to be aware that we are someone else's projection all the time.

Mhmm.

And that people are gonna get disappointed in us. People are going to become angry with us, or people are going to favor us among other people too because of their own projections. And so if if you know that's happening and when you know that's happening, there's kind of that duty to to bring it into consciousness. And sometimes say to this person, I know you've always known me to do this sort of thing. I've always done this for you, or I've always been this sort of person to you.

But there's just so much more to me, and this person that you might have in your mind of who I am could be an idealized version of me, or there's something that happened to you and you're really hurt about it and and sometimes you want to make me responsible for that, or you want me to be the person who's going to fix that for you, or you want me to be the person who you can be angry at because I match this this projection. And that that's also tough. So not only are we throwing these things out there, we're the recipients of them as well a %.

That hits really, really deeply because like that's been some of the things that I've struggled with the most is like feeling put inside of a box by other people. That it's like, oh, you are projecting something onto me and you are not allowing me to be a person. You are not allowing me to be who I am, and you're saying I have to be this certain way that I can't change, that I can't shift, that I have to fit your model, your perception. And it's like, it's suffocating. It's stifling.

And I know that now I can take this feeling of of of feeling stuck in this box of being stuck as somebody's projection. I can use that empathy when I'm doing it to other people. And I can really start to bring awareness to where in my life I might be doing this subconsciously and start to pull that tether back and be like, it's not about that person. It's about me. So what is it that I can work on on myself to do the healing for myself so that I can hopefully not do as much projecting out?

Because now I I understand like how it feels to be projected onto. So thank you for that.

So I'm curious. I'm sure that projection is possible for all people in all places at all times. But I'm wondering, do you believe that our current culture where we have a lot of shoulds, a lot of beliefs about what is right or wrong, very clear boundaries about what, like, what men are supposed to do, what women are supposed to do, like, what the you know, do you think that that makes it easier to to project and or how how might that influence people who are looking to bring awareness to this pattern in their life?

Tim with the big questions.

I mean, yes. We're like, go for it. Welcome to the podcast, everybody.

He said we're gonna go all in. So but I also wanna say, Eric, what you were just sharing is is beautiful, and I think it is a unique experience for queer men that that we do hold So many projections Of other people, And they don't realize they're doing it. We don't realize they're doing it. There's a whole behavior of of and kind of going along with the projection that we do all the time because sometimes it feels good and sometimes it grants us rewards whether or not it's right or wrong. And so I think that kind of ties into what what you're saying, Tim, too, on a very kind of global level.

I think we're in a time right now where we're realizing that there really isn't so much clear duality between right and wrong. And I think that's why so many people really wanna cling so hard to these antiquated, concepts of what is acceptable and what is not, because we're really entering an age where liberation is is at the door for everyone. Like, we are at a moment where we have the opportunity to really be true to who we are and see value in each other. Here I go again with my bias from my good coworker dream. We're really getting towards the good coworker.

She's right there. And when it comes to projection, can we say scapegoating? Can we talk about the projection that comes into play with scapegoating and for us as queer people, how that comes into play? I think, yes, projection is that. And I guess it is kind of like a It's it's in vogue right now to kind of, take these very, hypocritical stances that we see from, pretty narrow minded people saying, you know, scapegoating the queer community community saying they are all the people who bring in all these bad things, and then there's like a whole list of all the bad things that queer people do.

And then it's pretty trendy for folks online to be like you're projecting because these are actually the things that you guys are doing that you're projecting onto us. Okay. Fine. You can call that out if you want to. And, yeah, it's true.

The reason they do that is because it is unconscious. They're they're taking their things that they want to devalue in themselves, how they can exploit vulnerable populations of people and not really suffer the consequences. And then they say that queer people are doing that, that we are the ones who are going after vulnerable people and changing their genders on them or, you know, doing some sort of diabolical thing, which is really these disowned parts of themselves that they want to do to us, where we say, hi, This is me. This is who I am, and this is what I want to be. And they say, nope.

And then they cut us off. We are we don't have the same amount of power and agency that that a lot of these, wealthy people do, especially in government. And so, yes, it is a projection. It is scapegoating. We have to be aware of it when it happens, and also know that it comes from their own sad, lonely, hurt places too even though it's hurting us.

Well, and going back to where we started originally, like, the the sign that we can look for is this big emotion. And so we can look for that in ourselves. When I am experiencing a big emotion, it is an opportunity for me to become curious about what program is running and what beliefs I'm projecting onto a situation or a person. It sounds like we can also then take that and become aware, oh, if if this person or group of people in front of me are presenting with big emotions, I can also be curious about what might be happening for them. And even though it might be impossible for me to know precisely how they are projecting and if they're projecting onto me, I can at least think, oh, well, this is the the causes under which projection is likely to happen.

And then maybe giving myself some context for they just treated me this way or or this series of events just unfolded and then I have a possibility of context.

Exercise and empathy. Like bringing in that of like, oh, if this group is projecting onto me and I'm recognizing that, I could clap back. I could tell them, oh, you're just projecting onto me. But then I actually might be fitting into one of their stereotypes. I might be fitting into one of the things that they're actually stereotyping me about.

And they'd be like, see, I told you. I told you you were exactly like that. You did exactly the thing. Versus allowing it to be an opportunity to be like, oh, I can empathize with this person. By experiencing their intense emotion right now, I can kind of relate to where they might be coming from and what they might be needing in that moment.

And if I was in that case, I don't need somebody to be, like, pointing at me and being like, oh, you're just projecting onto me. I don't need that.

I mean, feels like one possibility. It also feels like a possibility that I might observe people in a big emotion, get a sense of what they might be projecting, and then choose to move myself away from that situation. Absolutely. So I keep thinking about I don't I don't think I saw a lot of queer people represented at the January sixth insurrection, for example.

At least not openly queer.

Right. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so I I feel like as as someone as someone who is openly queer, maybe like, oh, I I'm recognizing something. I'm not sure that I'm safe.

But, like, my choice would be I should remove myself from this place. I should go I should go. So I think that recognition can be a powerful tool for awareness and potentially empathy, but sometimes for self preservation and safety too. Like and then maybe I can empathize later when I'm, you know

I think it goes back to the what you mentioned earlier about, like, like, projection, judgment, intuition, they're kind of all tightly entwined here.

A %.

And it's like, okay, is that an intuitive ping? Is that a projection? Is that a judgment? Right? And I think, regardless of how it's classified, it comes back to again and again and again awareness that it's happening, and then curiosity, what is it trying to tell me?

Yeah. And then taking conscious action on that based off of what will serve me and my safety or purpose the best in this moment. Yeah. On that note, we have covered a lot of ground today. And so I just wanna do a little check-in to see how complete we're feeling.

So and then if there's any last areas that we want to explore before we close out. So, Tim, I'll start with you. How are you feeling?

I feel good. I feel I feel complete. Feel complete. Gregory?

Do we have to stop?

Truly, this is this is better.

I mean, I believe that I believe that if you are not familiar with the concept of projection, I feel like now, I I personally feel much clearer about it, how it operates, and how I can start to work with it.

Yeah, mean, I started this episode saying like, I'm a novice, right? I still feel a novice, but at least I have way more context and I can start to see how important it is to recognize these things in my own life. Like, I'm I'm committed to my own healing, and I'm committed to being the best possible version of myself. And I now believe that this is a huge component of that, of, like, recognizing where is it in my life that I am projecting? Where where is it that people are projecting onto me?

And just, like, working through that. Like, I definitely can see how this is this is gonna be really big takeaway conversation for for myself at least.

And write down those dreams Yeah. My friends. Write down your dreams even if it's just a little tidbit or even who was I dreaming about because that will pull the veil right away, of what are you putting on to other people? What is this other person doing for you in your life? And so yeah.

With that, that's reminder that you can find Gregory with the Queer Men's Dream Circle. Do you wanna do a little bit more information on that for our for our listeners in case anyone wants to join in for there?

Thank you. Yes. I'd love to. Yes. I host the Queer Men's Virtual Dream Circle.

You can get in touch with me on my website. I have a little handy dandy form there where you just throw your email address at me. My website is theganymedeproject.com. Ganymede is spelled G A N Y M E D E. You can also find me on Instagram the Ganymede project.

Throw me a DM. Just as long as I have your email address, I will put you on my email blast and send you the link. We do this dream circle once every two months for the time being. There's no cost to it. No experience necessary with journaling your dreams.

But if you do have experience with journaling your dreams, you're gonna get a lot out of it as well. It's for everyone, and, it's a special place specifically for queer men to to come into the contact with these parts of ourselves that we don't always get to talk about with other folks. It's very special.

We're big proponents of journaling here. So another another, recommendation for listeners, not just your daily journal practice, but also try try to incorporate some dream journaling into it and see what happens. See what comes up. See what veils are are removed. So, thank you very much for putting your offering out into the world and for being a part of our circle here.

I'm I'm also feeling very complete now as well. So, Tim, will you take us out, please?

Absolutely. Let's close our eyes and take a deep inhale through the nose. A gentle exhale through the mouth. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude for the shared sacred space of insight, exploration, understanding, discovery, awareness. That as we leave the circle, I wish everyone listening safety, community, brotherhood, and love.

And with these words, our container is open but not broken.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.