Transforming Judgment: A Path to Growth in Men's Work

Welcome back to the circle. We all judge ourselves, others, the world around us. It happens fast, often without us even realizing it most of the time. Today, we're exploring how men can work with judgment, how to notice it, understand it, and transform it into a tool of growth. Tim, are you ready to go all in?

I'm ready. Let's go. So in men's work, we talk a lot about presence, about being the witness, fully seeing what's in front of us. But judgment can uproot us, pulling us from observation into reaction. How do you see judgment showing up in men's lives, and how does it how does it affect their ability to stay present?

For me, I think that judgment is challenging because it is so interwoven into our lives and our culture. This idea that there is a right way or a standard that we're all supposed to know and be able to achieve, and there's often a lot of assumption around that. And so I was thinking about this earlier when I thought to myself, oh, one of the challenges of judgment and this idea that there's a right way and then therefore a wrong way is that a lot of times there's actually one right way and many wrong ways depending on your perspective or your, you know, your upbringing, your culture, but you know whatever. And so this sort of threat of getting it wrong is pervasive. I think it weighs heavily, and then we live in a culture where it's hard for us to ask for help or for clarification or for questions, which is what part of men's work does.

So I think, you know, when people when men come to men's work wanting fuller expression, one of the first things we need to do is shine the light of awareness on areas where they where people feel stuck or held or paralyzed in some way because they feel that they need to do it right, and they don't entirely know what that means. And I think I've seen a lot of men with that experience.

Absolutely. And and I when the admitting that you're wrong, right, that, like, if you are going through the world with this sense of there's a right way and a wrong way, and if one of the first steps is to just, like, ask for help, you have to admit that you're wrong. That is a super vulnerable thing. But if we can reframe it into, like, I I need a little bit of help because I'm I'm struggling with something very specific, and I think that that could be a little helpful as well as

Yeah. I think asking for help is a really powerful thing. It also makes me think about the queer experience and this idea that being wrong could question your safety. Being wrong could be dangerous to you, so I think that's one slice of it for a for a queer person in particular. Oh, if I'm wrong, I could get yelled at, I could get made fun of, I could get singled out, I could get beaten up, I could, you know, any number of things.

And then I think number two is with certain aspects, oh, I can never be right in the context of what I'm being told right is. So, you know, the most obvious example is don't be queer. And, you know, when you come to the realization that that isn't a choice you can make, you have to wrestle with this idea, well, there's a right way and a wrong way. And according to this manner of thinking, I can never be right, which I think is then hard to, work with.

Yeah. That's been a big part of my self work and self reflection lately is diving into judgment and that fear, that threat of getting things wrong, and what does that mean? And so I have really been kind of, like, paralyzed in certain situations of, like, oh, am I gonna do this right? Mhmm. And I think that it comes from very early on, like, being so afraid that, like, I'm not right, that there's something about me that is incorrect, that it's wrong, that, like, I'm not gonna fit the mold of what my upbringing was telling me was the right way to be, right, that I was gonna grow up and and be a father and be a husband and, like, have, you know, the kind of that classic life.

I was like, well, that's not me. And so I really thought I was like, oh, then I'm wrong. Right? If that's the right way to be, then I'm wrong. So the moralistic judgment was very, like, I was internalizing.

And I don't think there's a lot of areas, or at least in my experience, where this allowance to be wrong is welcomed, but I feel compelled now to say I feel fortunate that I was an artist. I was a dancer and a choreographer, and I I studied and immersed myself in that. And so there are so many books, but one in particular, written by Twyla Tharp, The Creative Habit, and Twyla Tharp was the director and choreographer of my first Broadway show, Moving Out. She's a a genius and a and a force of modern dance, and she wrote this self help book helping people get connected to their creativity, but some of the creativity required an allowance for what we might describe as a mistake. Now she I don't think she said it that way, and it's been a long time since I read that book, but not even mistakes but what in the process of finding whatever it is you're creating, there can be a messiness.

So for example, you know, when we think about baking and I don't know why I'm making this metaphor because I don't bake and I should learn, but you think about the kitchen and and what we end up judging is whatever the end product is and we never beat up the, you know, the baker for, oh, there was flour on the counter or there was, you know, eggshell and, you know, that isn't how we do it. Right? But in other aspects of our lives, that's exactly what we do. Like, oh, I'm gonna judge you. You your hands are covered in flour.

You're dirty. You're messy. Like, I'm gonna judge you right now. And a person who's aware of the process would say, well, I'm in the middle of doing the thing. You know, potters get dirty.

Dancers get sweaty. You know, makeup artists get powder on, you know, their their shirts are covered in makeup. That's how it, you know, no one judges that. So honoring that process, I think, is part of what we need to do as a society and part of what we do in men's work because we're allowed to be a little messy. We're allowed to be at that point where we start to shake or tremble, and it isn't a judgment of you're doing it wrong.

It's a judgment of you're still doing it. Like or it's a it's a celebration of you're still doing it.

Yeah. There's there's a couple things that I I'm hearing when I hear you talk about that. There's one, there's a there's a physicality or there's a physical rightness, wrongness of, like, oh, if we want something to be good, then it has to be clean. Right? So, like, if if somebody is messy, they're not good.

They're not right. There's something they are messy, not clean. So in that, there is a judgment. Right? And what does messiness, what does sloppiness, what does that invoke?

So that's one part of it. And then the other part of it is kind of this this being okay with being in the process and not getting something right. But in pursuit of many things, the end goal may be a right thing or a right way to do something. So, like, I I have baked a lot, and so there is a pursuit of, like, getting a recipe right. Like, having followed the correct steps.

And I can imagine in dance, there are certain dance types that it's like getting the moves right Mhmm. Technically. Sure. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. And so I think that's where sometimes there is a lot of, like, judgment built into things is because we're we have so many, like, analytical things in our lives of, like, this is how you do things.

I'm gonna just jump. I was fortunate enough to be watching the New York City Ballet. I can't remember how long ago this was at Lincoln Center. And Wendy Whelan was, doing this contemporary ballet piece with, I think, seven other unbelievably talented dancers. And they were going for it, and I I would describe it in greater detail.

But if you don't know dance, you know anyway, going for it, going for it. And so she was too, and she is a superstar, by the way. If you don't know Wendy Wayland, I think it's called Wounded Creature. Watch her documentary. Unbelievable.

Anyway, she fell. She was going for it so hard that she slipped off her point point shoe and fell down for a second, jumped right back up, kept going, and it almost made it better. It kind of reminded us, oh, these people are at the edge. That is, like, that is the intensity of what they're doing. And I think it's easier sometimes again.

I'm gonna talk about the Olympics. We talk about the gymnasts and Simone Biles and whatnot. We know that they're at their edge. They make a mistake. We can be disappointed, but we don't we don't, like, judge it.

And it was that moment of, oh, you fell down,

but it's okay. I would say probably most people aren't gonna judge it. They're gonna see the humanity, but there might be a critic in the crowd, somebody who is not not necessarily, like, the job of critic, but there could be somebody who is very critical that could say, like, oh, she messed up. She's not good.

Totally. I, I Right? Like I mean, we're talking about Wendy Whelan. So but, yes, like yeah. No.

Yeah. You're absolutely right. I think that there and I think that that sort of archetype of critic, that critical person has come from having been criticized. And so you're kind of constantly on the lookout for, moments and and situations in which you can be criticized. It's so uncomfortable, And then you just become highly attuned to it.

For you know, I have a speech impediment. I, it's been a thing I've had my whole life, and so when another person has one I pick up on it almost immediately. It's just because it's a thing I've paid attention to. So I think that's an that's prevalent in our society, and it isn't really serving us because in this example, the dance piece was amazing. I actually thought as a dancer it made it more exciting because I understood how much they were doing.

But there are people who are there's a there's the way or not the way. Right.

But and then also, like, if I don't have the, awareness, if I don't have the the studiedness of seeing, like, if Wendy is the first dancer I've ever seen. Mhmm. Right? Like, I don't know that, like, she's that excellent. I really don't.

I don't I don't have nothing to concern to.

When I see if I see her fall, like, she just fell. Right? And that that to me, like, is the difference of, like, I could notice that she fell observation versus she fell, she's a bad dancer judgment.

So I wanna go into that because we talked about that in circle. You did such a great job. But before we do that, it's so prevalent, this idea recently, during the last Olympics, there was a sort of joke going around about, having one average person in every Olympic final. Because you know you like you look at like these eight swimmers and you're like, oh, that guy in lane six is falling behind, and the idea was, oh, but if you put a regular person in there, you'd still realize they're all so so good. Mhmm.

And this is like fractions of excellence that we're really looking at. But we have that critical like, oh, you you just lost by a lot. You're like, well, there's 35 people that didn't even make it into the final, and there are hundreds and thousands of people who never even made it to the Olympics.

I think this invites in a relative of judgment, which is comparison, which I think can just be can be valuable. So I think all that we're talking about with judgment and comparison and all this stuff, like, these are natural human tendencies. We go through the world and have evolved through the world to recognize, oh, something may be bigger than I am. Right? So maybe I have to, like like, take that awareness and do something with it.

Mhmm. Right? I think it's when we say that, like, bigger is better. Yeah. Right?

That's when that that judgment gets a little bit tricky and critical. So I would say, like, even in the swimming situation, the swimming example, like, why why are we saying that? Like, oh, if you swim fast, you're good. Right? It's it's in pursuit of excellence of, like, striving for some sort of end goal, right, versus, like, can we be a little bit more, like like, sterile about it maybe and say, like, that person swam however many meters in this amount of time.

And in comparison to the rest in comparison to the average, you know, pace of a swimmer, that person is x longer. That's not as sexy to say. You'd rather say, they're the fucking best. Right? They're the best.

Look look how good they are.

That is not a sexy

It's not a sexy way to say it. Right? But then that's kind of how, like like

Yeah. It's so I think when we think about it in our daily lives, that's a great practice to start recognizing when we are putting values on things. Is this better or worse, stronger or weaker, like, those sorts of things, especially if they don't serve us. And then I think there are moments where, okay, you're in the Olympics. Everyone wants to do their very best.

Just go for the gold. I get that we are Best being defined as. Right?

Like Right.

Right. Right. But, you know, so we can we can wrap our head around there is a shared goal. In the in an Olympic final, there is a shared goal.

Yeah.

And could we bring to that an appreciation for how much unbelievable talent there is? I think that's the missing piece. Oh, they won the gold, they won the silver, they won the bronze. That's amazing. Right?

Like, you get on the podium, you have that minute moment, but everyone else who was even in the building as a competitor is, like, at the top point 2% of their, you know Sport.

Right. Minowie, I think of, like, even drag race because this could be some similar. Right? Like Okay.

This is a great race. Like, if

we think about the the current season, right, and, like, it's it's completely stacked with talent. Right? We still look at those bottom queens like like, at least I do. Like, I judge them so quickly. I'm like, ugh.

How did you even get on the show? Right? Like, oh, that's what you brought. That's what you did. And I'm like, I have to catch myself all the time.

I'm like, they made it through an intensive casting process. They had to put themselves out there. They had to go through the interviews. They had to do the thing. And they have been deemed the best drag queens in America to compete in this current season.

Mhmm. And I'm like, I forget that. Right? Because I'm just looking at them, like, on the surface. And so I think that's a lot of what maybe judgment is.

Judgment is very surface level. Right? It's like a quick immediate reaction. It's that, like, I'm comparing it to something, and in my judgment, in my bias, I am saying it is good, bad, you know, right or wrong.

Yeah. And we've we've seen on a lot of reality TV shows, contestants will say all the time, it's not as easy as it looks. Yeah. And, you know, with Drag Race as the example, you think they are given a list of possible categories. There's a lot of context they don't have.

So

And a lot of time did you not have a lot of time either?

Right. And then you think, okay. Well, I show up with what I thought was gonna be the best. Now in context, it isn't really the best. Do I have the time or the skill set to take what I thought was gonna work and make it what it is gonna work?

Oftentimes, no, I have to I have to wear what I brought. And and then we can all sit at home on our couch or in the local bar. And judging. It's so easy. The bond bond.

You're like, yeah, I would have done it differently. Well, with all this context

I'm Kathy Siegel sitting on the couch for Married

and Children just Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Well, this is why judgment is so, I think that judgment is really baked in to our culture, and so it will come kind of easily. And everyone's been judged, and everyone's watched people judging, so the compassion just takes a lot more work.

The the pausing for a moment of consideration is a lot harder. And then final thing I would say is I think in our culture at least, it feels like there's this value to it would it would it's easier and better to think something's bad than it is to think it's good. Mhmm. So I don't know what the word is for that, but this idea of, like, ugh, that's you know, that that movie wasn't, you know, that piece of art, you know, being critical. It almost feels a little bit like, well, I'm I'm trying to put myself up in this position as the the connoisseur of, like, the highest form of whatever I'm looking at.

And so even if I don't know anything about the art, if I pretend to be like, ugh, it's a it's fine, then then you're gonna perceive me to be a person who's above it. And I think that does a real disservice because a lot of times, you're like, you don't even know what you're talking about.

But, like, if somebody can if somebody can if somebody can convince you that they're an expert, then they can't be wrong. Right? They can't have that vulnerability. They can't have that, like, like I I've noticed this sometimes that when when people are put on the spot, if they don't know the answer, I've seen this so many times in corporate America. If somebody doesn't know the answer and they don't have the humility, they will just sit there on the spot and start making shit up.

Yeah. Right? Because they are they I've attached themselves so much to being an expert, and they've, like, they're like, oh, crap. Like, if I don't get this right, right, if I don't say the right thing right now, then, like, I might lose my job. I might get a demotion or somebody might get a promotion over me.

Like, all these things that could happen to somebody, right, instead of saying, like, I don't have the answer to that right now, but I'll get back to you.

Well, that was built into my acupuncture education. We were trained from a very early point in the program, never tell a patient something you don't know. And there's a real freedom in that to say, oh, I I know a lot of stuff, and I can offer you what I know. Well, I actually don't know that. I'll look for it.

I'll try to figure it out. Or I might even know that I'll I'll never be able to know it, or it's not my job to know it, and someone else should know it. And I'll refer you to the person who you should be speaking to. But, yeah, this, I don't know has I don't know has a lot of power because this idea that we're supposed to know everything is crazy. Think about think about the Internet and all the you know, like like there's no way that you know everything about everything.

It just it does it it is impossible, and there's something really trustworthy when, oh, I, like, I know a lot about yoga, and I know a lot about, you know, some other things, but there's a lot of stuff I don't know about. I think we can all relate to that.

Absolutely. And, like, there's also one of the practices that I had or one of the sits that I had at a recent meditation retreat was around this concept of, like, the layers of I don't know. And I hadn't ever clicked the confidence that you can feel from saying, okay. Well, if I'm floating through space, then I don't know something. I'm like, oh, well, like, that could be terrifying.

But then I can hold on to something. Is that, like, I do know. I do know that I don't know. And I was like, that little, like, simple realization, I was like,

woah.

There's so much power in that. Right? And, like, I think that bringing it back to judgment is like, you know, like, instead of judging things so quickly, like, I can, you know, start to admit when I might not know something or I might not be fully confident about something, and I might not, like, understand, like, something completely. And instead of it being my initial reaction, right, like, where in the opener, I talked about, like, you know, we talk about presence and being the witness. Right?

Like, I can get pulled out of being the witness of observing what's in front of me if I judge it. I'm judging it super quickly. And I can pull myself back by saying, like, oh, well, okay. I went to that point of judgment because I didn't know something. And then I was or I wasn't familiar with something or someone, and so I judged them.

Mhmm. And now I'm pulling myself back, and I'm gonna say, like, okay, like, now can I, like, set that judgment aside and actually observe what's in front of me and then start to, like, bring in a little bit more curiosity around it?

Yeah. This is bringing up for me the the teaching of emptiness, right, and, how the content of our mind and our perspectives and our perceptions are projected onto everything, and just bringing a little bit of awareness to that, I think, can help us to pause into I'm gonna think it's good or bad, right or wrong, valuable or not valuable, and instead let me just have a minute with whatever it is and then decide from there. Well, what like, how do I wanna engage or not engage with whatever? Yeah.

I think there's there's so many examples. Like, you you talked about, like, good, bad, like, right, wrong. I think there's also, like, you know, there's so many layers to to judgment. There's so many different ways that we can judge things. Like, I even think of, like, if there's a couple, right, and, like, one person is a little bit more, like, wanting of attention than the other, then one case, that person could be needy.

And on the other case, like, if that person isn't willing to, like, give that attention, they could be aloof. Right? And just how quickly we are to, like, label, to classify, to categorize, and, like, even under that, if we, like, think of neediness or aloofness, like, we've now said, oh, there's a right way to be.

But this all also has a standard. Right? So in the example that you just gave, which I really appreciate, each of them comes from the perspective. So like, you know, you talked about like the needy person, but that person might be judged as needy from the perspective of someone who doesn't want to give as much as that person is looking to have, right, or to take or to you know, or asking for, right? The the person who is judged for being aloof, they're probably judged from the perspective of a person who is wanting more from them.

So, oh, you're not giving me all that I want. You are aloof. Now is that true? You know, it's hard to say. You know, it's not that there's anything wrong with that evaluation, but is it actually true?

Like what is the fact there and, is jumping to a you are this or you are that helping you or whomever you've just labeled?

I think this is where, like, I've I've studied nonviolent communication a little bit, and this is the foundation of it. It's like, can we be aware of when we're bringing in the judgment and then start to say, like, okay. Like, now let me make an observation of it and and and saying, okay. Like, if my moralistic judgment right now is that my partner is aloof or is needy, Can I now classify into an observation of, like, hey, my love? Like, you know, I'm I'm hoping that, like, I would like to spend, you know, an hour with you today.

Right? And just, like, kind of starting to quantify and saying like, okay. The last time I asked for this, I didn't get it. Right? And so now we start to, like, look at what it is that we might be needing.

Because what judgment does is it it focuses so much on the what is what or who is who rather than what's alive inside of us. Right? It's very

What is happening?

Yeah. So this goes

I love that example. I am also curious. Is that how you talk? Do you say, hey, my love? Or what did you say?

Hey, my love. Yeah.

This is making me think about my yoga mentor, Nirani, who I've mentioned numerous times and on this podcast. I love you, Nirani.

I'm on the show.

Pardon? Oh, come on the show. Nirani, come on the show, please. We want you here. An incredible woman, yogi and Buddhist, and she said one of the thing we should never complain about the weather because it's just kind of railing against what is happening.

And based on what you're saying, instead of being like, oh, it's the rain is bad. The rain is good. You know, the snow, whatever the thing is, just, oh, it's raining. And because it's raining, I should get an umbrella or a raincoat or, you know, take the car, not my bike, whatever the thing, you know. And there's a whole different feeling around the approach to I need to get a different jacket than can you believe that this is happening to me.

Yeah. You know, and and there's a freedom in, well, it's raining and it rains. And then if we go to the emptiness thing, there'd be sometimes rain is good. If you're in LA right now, rain is good. Right?

So so the the the value can change based on context

and perspective. Absolutely. I think that, like, there can be a preference. Right? Like, I can prefer

that Not wetness? Not wetness. Yeah. I prefer not wetness, generally speaking. Generally like that, that is a preference.

Right?

But it's like, can I communicate that preference? Yeah. Rather than assigning a judgment to something.

Right. So it sounds like we're getting, like, this idea that judgment, a lot of times, can be an attachment to our preference. So when I think of situation x, I think it should happen this way, and then if it doesn't happen that way, I assign a value to it. And then the the question really becomes, is that in service to us in any way? Does that make us happier?

Does it make us more productive, more relaxed, more engaging, more authentic? Whatever the thing is we're trying to be. And I would argue that I can't think of a time when it does. When I think, oh, when I said that that person was, a bad person, that made me have a better day. I can't I can't imagine I I don't remember one time in my life where that's been the truth for me.

I think there can be an honor in, like, you know, connecting to what it is you value in this life. So let's go back to the couple example. If person a values more connection, more quality time, more physical touch, Right? And person b doesn't share those same values. They have a value misalignment.

Mhmm.

Right? And so instead of bringing in the moralistic judgment of aloofness or neediness, have a conversation based on needs, right, and based off of core values and what's important to us. And then making a decision that, like, okay. If I had labeled that that person bad, needy, or aloof, right, like, maybe my action moving forward, if I can't get my needs met through this person, maybe my choice is I have to go my separate ways, right? Like, so the badness of that judgment of something being bad, like, can be a signal.

Right? To, like, step back, be aware of it, and then make decisions from there just like rain.

Right.

So I'm gonna make a decision to, like, put on a jacket or grab an umbrella.

Right. So it it feels like from that place, we have two options. One is I can break up with you because you're an asshole.

Judgment. Judgment.

Right. Or I can break up with you because we don't have shared values and my needs aren't being met.

That's correct.

And I don't need you to be the villain, and I don't need to be the villain. There doesn't have to be there doesn't have to be a right or a wrong or a good or bad. It can just be what is. I really need this. You don't need that.

You don't like you need something else. I've seen that a lot that, you know, there's a lot of relationship stuff, where it's easy to fall into that. It's also easy because, oh, if I have emotions of feeling hurt, then saying goodbye to something might be easier if I'm mad at it. If I if I decide that it's bad, may maybe it makes it easier. But I think there's more power in a recognition.

You have a set of needs, and so do I, and now they are not in alignment. Is it more powerful for us to to move in the direction of what where we can find those things?

It makes it much less about, like, you know, what is what rather than what is happening. Right. Like

So what's happening is a relationship where the two people aren't having their needs met, and that does not mean that any of those people in that relationship are bad or failing or, you know, it doesn't mean that people can't be bad or failing in relationships. It just means that it doesn't always have to be that. It can be

And subjectively speaking, right, like what that might mean for a person based off of what they value.

Exactly. Right. Right. Well, I mean, I think we could say yeah.

I think there are some things. There are some values that, like, many people share. Right? There are there are values around, like, how we treat one another. Mhmm.

Right? And that is where a moralistic judgment of, like, if you don't treat people the way that we think that we all are valuing how we think we should treat people, then that is where badness can come from. That's where villain

villainry? Villain Villainess. Villainessness. Villainessness. Villainessness.

Villill vilification? I don't know. Is

that vilification?

Vilification. There we go. That's where

the vilification of something can come from. Right?

Someone please recommend us a podcast about words and grammar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, right.

Grammarly, do

you wanna sponsor this podcast?

Word of the day, vilification. It might be a real word.

I'm gonna make it a real word.

I mean, it is right now.

I'm gonna incorporate it into the episode description.

Yeah, so I hear what you're saying, and so I think when we think about judgment and men's work, we have to realize that we have a lot of judgments about other people, and we've talked about that a lot, but we also judge ourselves. And the practices and the and the approach of men's work, you know, the physical practices, the breath, the inquiry, the conversations are an attempt to show up as we are, and as we are isn't perfect and sort of recognizing that. And so when we talk about our edges, when we talk about our strong suits and our weaknesses, our triggers, our shadows, all these things, each time we kind of get into that material, we allow ourselves an opportunity to recognize what is without without judging it or practicing trying not to judge it. So when we think about our shadow, shadow, loosely defined as parts of ourselves that we are, like, unwilling to look at in ourselves or or trying to hide from ourselves or from other people, they often look like things we might describe as bad, but part of the work is to not start at that place and rather, oh, there there's a there's an angry part of me.

Like, what like what were you here to do angry part? And kind of investigated from that. Chances are that angry part of you was there to protect you. Well, chances are most of your shadow is there to protect you in some way or the other. And, the practice of trying to meet it without being your bad.

The reason we the reason it becomes a shadow, the reason we shove it away is because we've labeled it as not good or or or not welcomed or unacceptable to our community or, you know.

I think a big part of the practice is, again, like like, can we notice it without getting fully swept up into it? Right? Like, can I can I be aware of where I might be falling into that rather than fully getting swept into it and getting pulled out of my groundedness? And I think that when I'm in practice and I'm starting to have a lot of those those judgments, it pulls me completely out of being present. I'm no longer present.

I'm ruminating in the past or future casting. Right? But I'm definitely not present. Can you

give us an example? Like, you're in you're in the middle of

some practice and something. Can you? Yeah. So I would say even in, like, synchronized breath practices, like, it can it can happen very quickly because I'm like, oh, I I'm not inhaling as big as that other person. And so I'm like, should I be inhaling bigger?

Like, are my lungs not as capable as that person's? Am I doing this the right way? I'm not vocalizing as much as that person. Or in some cases, like, oh, am I vocalizing too much? Is my breath too big?

Is my is my breath is bigger than that person? Oh, like, am I doing it wrong? Am I going too much? Am I too much right now? Right?

Like, all these things that will take me away from my practice.

So I'll just I'm gonna jump on this because partner practice where we do some eye gazing and synchronize our breath, my teacher, our teacher, Amir Khalighi, will sometimes say, these are not his exact words. I don't wanna get it wrong, but he'll he'll sometimes say the the person with the bigger breath will be holding the masculine pole. You know, so talking about

Oh, you

So yeah. So so so this polarity idea, there's nothing wrong with there's nothing wrong with what he said. But I remember thinking, like, the first few times I heard it, then I started sensing around the room, oh well now everyone's trying to have the biggest breath because no one wants to have be holding the feminine pull because we have a judgment about what the feminine pull means as a man in this world and this is among men who are doing conscious men's work, right? So, oh, still deep down there's a judgment to be feminine as a man is I'm gonna say bad but I'm sure that we come up with a bunch of different words, you know, and therefore I'm gonna deepen my breath to try to make it bigger than yours so that I'm holding the masculine so that you're holding the feminine and I don't think you're bad for holding the feminine, I just know that I can't. And that to me is sort of fascinating because that's how that's how deeply woven it is.

Instead of, well, someone's gotta be the feminine pull. Like, when you think about magnets, you're like, if you want those two things to pull together, the one's gotta be plus and one's gotta be minus. Like, we're not judging the minus. You know what I'm talking about with, like, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Positive positive negative. We're not we're not judging it. It's like without it, there is no connection. And yet, from our perspective, well, I'm like, my my breath is bigger.

Like, I'm holding the masculine pole, you know? And you're like, okay. Okay. Easy, everybody.

The amount of times that I've been in that exact moment,

and I've been like,

and this this this even goes into some, like, some some gay programming for myself.

I was just supposed to bring it up.

Yeah. Like like bottom shaming or, like, the shame that I feel sometimes if I bottom. Right? Is that like like I'm like, I'm not gonna be the bottom. Like, I can get very, like, defensive very quickly.

So this is the crazy thing for me about this, and we have to, like, unpack it, you know, for for everyone, but for our community. If you think about two straight couples, man and a woman. Right? A man and a woman. And there are two of them.

So a man and a woman and a man and a woman. And we say couple A, their favorite sexual position is missionary and couple B likes, you know, cowgirl or whatever, you know. I do not immediately jump to like, well this means this about this couple and that means that about them. Right? But in our community, we get to this, oh, you're the receptive partner and that immediately means that you are submissive, weak, you know, the one who's, out of control and you're like, what?

It's crazy. It's this weird perception. It doesn't serve us at all. It's a little bit like some people like getting neck massages and some people don't. Yeah.

What does

that mean about you? It doesn't mean anything about you except you like or you dislike a neck massage.

Right. But I think if we bring it to the breath practice of, like, those men in that space, myself included, Like, as soon as you tell me whoever has the biggest breath is holding the masculine pull, I'm like, well, I'm not gonna be the feminine partner.

Well, and I'm I'm

not gonna be the feminine partner because being feminine is bad.

Well, well, well and I would say that I have felt and so maybe there's a slice of this with you too, that it's like well as one of the few queer people in this space, I definitely can't be the feminine partner right now because you all expect me to be. Even though I don't know that to be true, it's like and I've I've actually shared about this in a, in a in a really powerful circle. People have mentioned this later, but I shared something along those lines where I'm like, I'm like I said to the the whole group of straight men where I'm like, I don't think about the sex you have. I don't think about it. I don't think about your favorite position or, like, what you're into.

I'm like, but I think you think I think about the sex you have. And then I carry that with me, because they like to hypersexualize queer people and so that was the thing I had to start working through because I'm like, oh, I think you believe that I'm sexualizing you. I'm not sexualizing you, but you think I am. And now I'm gonna compensate so that you're certain I'm not sexualizing you, Which meant at one point, this, man in in the in the work, we were at a retreat center and he came up and he put his arm around me. I was so uncomfortable.

I was so uncomfortable in my physical body in that moment, not because I didn't want his arm around me or I I feared a closeness with him. It was because I didn't know what he thought I thought about it. And then I was like, if he thinks that I'm in this moment, like, sexually, like, aroused and, you know, in my feminine whatever, that I was like, that that makes me uncomfortable. And so I ended up, like, moving out of it. It's a thing we have

to work on. Mhmm. There's a lot of judgment to unpack there.

Well, this is the right episode.

Yeah. I mean, like, on a lot of these sides, right? Like, the idea that a heterosexual person is thinking about homosexual or queer sex, they may be judging it because they don't know. There's maybe there is a curiosity of, like, that's where their brain goes to, and now they're they're judging it. Because I know I've I did that for a long time before I, like, like, truly understood my sexuality.

Like, I was there. I was, like, I was judging it too because I was like, I just didn't know. Mhmm. I didn't know, like, like, how gay worked. Okay.

Right? And so, like, I did I did have a lot of judgment around it. And I had a lot of, like, also curiosity, and that would be a lot of the things that I focused on. Like, gay wasn't necessarily a lifestyle. Gay was a, like, a a sexual thing.

It was a behavior. It's a behavior. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

So, like, I think that was something that I had to, like, come to terms with over time and understand a little bit more about of for myself, of myself.

Well, in the in this conversation, yes, it's important for me to start to think about, what's actually happening versus like what I think might be happening, but we're living in a moment where, we we have plenty of proof that people are jumping to conclusions about queer people and how they are and what they're doing. I mean, this entire conversation about, trans people in bathrooms is born of this I'm jumping to conclusions about who you are and what you're doing. Right? You and I both know that it's an absurd thing. There isn't there isn't any trans people are not in bathrooms doing terrible things.

Right? It but it's that assumption and I think so so as a queer person to walk into a space and wonder or be afraid that that is being projected onto you shouldn't be surprising because it has been projected onto us so many times, and it and it's continuing to happen. Right? Does that make sense?

It does, and I think that's where that internalized shame comes from sometimes for myself of, like, it's been projected onto me so often, you know, growing up that, like, it is really hard for me to, like, break apart from it. Mhmm. And that is a big part of my, like, therapy work, my own personal practices is, like, can I start to untether from these these, like, shames that were given to me at some point along the road?

And I would you would you agree with me in saying that one step, maybe one of the early steps I almost said step one,

but it may not be step one. Go down there.

This is not officially step one, but is to is to start to try to be aware, to become aware of moments when it is operating or wanting to operate. Oh, there there was an indication that I might be described or perceived as being feminine, and I had a feeling about that. And just recognizing, oh, I see you. I see that thing.

Mhmm.

I just wanna say because there's this, you know, masculine feminine. I was raised by women, and I also love animal nature documentaries. The feminine is fucking awesome. And now any any comparison to the incredible feminine beings that exist in my life to me is a compliment. But there was a time when that when that comparison meant danger.

And so we have to we have to do the work to start to unpack that because, oh, well, when I was in middle school, when I was such a small person, the comparison to me being feminine meant, like, maybe a body check, a tackle, a punch, or whatever was just around the corner. You know? So these things start to shift. So it's a tricky so if you're still struggling it with it as as I think I am and we all do, you're not alone Yeah. Because safety first.

I mean, as much as I I love, like, like queer interactions, especially here in Provincetown of like being able to like call each other ma'am and girl and like all these things. Oh, cool. Like, there is a playfulness that comes with it, but, like, it still prickles me. Right? Like, when somebody comes up and says, girl, I'm like, like, it but it's gotten like, I understand now where it's coming from.

Sure. But there's still a part of me just based off of years and years and years of conditioning that, like, it still it still has that little bite to it. You know? And even though I love to to do it with my friends and be like, ma'am, really? Right?

Like, it's still like, I know that it can have that, like, a little bit to it.

It's funny. I was, in I was in a bar. This was, I don't know, a few years ago, talking to someone, and I kept using I was talking to a gay man. We were in a gay bar. I you know, two gay men in a gay bar having a conversation.

And I It

started with a really good joke right there.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

And, I was speaking about something probably something along these lines, and I kept using the word queer. And he finally admitted he's like, I'm I'm having trouble with your continued use of that word. I said, oh, okay. Well, you know, tell me about that. And so he explained that it had been weaponized against him so much that he it was he he couldn't identify as queer, and the hearing of it, especially in the casual way that I was saying it, was very uncomfortable probably because it was very new.

I explained to him that I now use the word queer because I want to signal that everybody under the umbrella of queer, which is all LGBTQIA two s plus, you know, people are safe with me. So I'm a gay man, but I use the word queer because I think it it serves that purpose. Brings more people in, but

it doesn't stop it from being riddled with judgment. Right?

Right. And then this idea that so then I might use the word queer or I might use the word like, I'm like, yes, mama, or whatever word, you know, as ways of reclaiming this sort of shared experience. I think a lot of queer people have had these sorts of things, you know, and words weaponized against them. And so then, you know, if you're a gay man or a trans person or a lesbian, like like, the words weaponized against you may be a little different, but we've probably all had some version of that experience.

Absolutely. And I think that's where it's like just bringing online the curiosity of, like, like, is this something that is is this a label that is something that's bringing up a reaction in me? And can I then bring online my awareness again to pull back from my reaction and and sit with what is? Yeah. That's

Say that one more time because that feels like if if you're listening to the podcast right now and you're like, okay. Well, how do I start to work with my judgment and so that I can create the space between, like, the emotional reaction and, like, the objective what is, and this feels like one way they could do it. So would you say that one more time? Like, that process? So for me, a

lot of judgment manifests itself in my body as almost like a prickly reaction. I like somebody called me like a cat the other day. Like, that is my, like, my signal. That is my somatic bodily signal. When I start to, like, tense up, when I start to, like, when the quills on my back start to get or the hair on the back of my neck starts to get like that, then I know that's my trigger.

And that's my opportunity to say, like, okay. Like, what has just triggered me about this? Is it that, oh, it's this use of the word queer, and it's bringing me back to, middle school where I was being labeled as a queer, as a bad thing, and now I am reacting to it. And so now from my reaction, okay, the awareness, the reaction is connected to the bodily sensation of the, then I can start to pull back a little bit and and say, okay. Let me try to find out, like, what is happening here Mhmm.

And starting to separate, like, my reaction from what is.

So I'm gonna pause you there. So this is this is really great. So the first thing I heard was that you had, a physical somatic experience that you became aware of. So step one, become aware of your physical sensations and like awarenesses in your own felt sense. This is why embodiment is important.

This is why we practice so that we can know that's coming up. So, that's an important step one and a layered step one because people are gonna have different abilities to do that based on, if they've what their practice is or whatnot. But so once you have that that physical sensation, that felt sense, that somatic, signal is sent to you, sounds like you then became aware of it and paused. And then in that moment of pause, you then shine the light of your curious awareness onto what is happening. So if we had, like, a three step process, it was like it was notice the physical sensation, pause, shine my light of awareness, and become curious about what just happened.

This is where I believe observation can be so helpful. And so just just taking and breaking apart a judgment and saying, like, okay. Like, instead of saying, that person is lazy, Can I bring in an awareness of, like, that person has, from what I've seen, from what I've witnessed, from what I've observed, that person did not complete this task when they said they were going to complete this task by? So that's the observation. My judgment is that person's lazy.

Mhmm.

Right? So, like, that's kind of that step work of saying, like, okay. Reaction or bodily sensation, something just came up. Okay. Now I'm going to pause, and now I'm going to look at it.

And then from there, start to to separate it out a little bit.

So if we use the other example of someone calling you girl or mama or whatever, You have a physical reaction, you pause, you notice that you were triggered by that, and then you start to become like, well what what happened? Oh, they called me this word. I I have a feeling or a previous experience of this word, and that makes me feel unsafe or spotlit or, you know, whatever the thing is. Is that

Yeah. And then the opportunity of saying, okay. Like, do I trust this person? Do I understand where they're coming from? Can I have a dialogue with them to understand, am I safe?

Right? Because I think that's that's really what judgment is. It's just it it really is. It's a natural human thing in service of safety. Mhmm.

Right? I've just spent so much of my life, like, fearing for safety that, like, the the work is now to, like, remind myself that I am safe. And, like, so, like, in those moments of, like, reaction, I'm just like, okay. Like, am I safe? Am I safe with this person?

Like, this person is calling me ma'am, girl, queer, whatever it might be. And, like, okay. Like, I have a I have a somatic experience, and then I'm noticing my reaction. Now I'm pausing, and I'm saying, okay. Like, am I safe?

Right. Well, that's what we were saying earlier. You know, when I was young and a lot of people, I never I never thought that women were bad, but I knew that the comparison to me being a woman meant that I was unsafe. And so I think what you just said is so great because I think a lot of people, a lot of queer people in particular, have had to wonder about their safety. And I think that's happening now too.

A moment where we are unclear how safe we might be, and so bringing this awareness of, oh, I'm feeling unsafe. And then recognizing is that is that a legitimate lack of safety? In which case, you would start taking action. Maybe I need to leave here. Maybe I need to, you know, or is it a lack of safety because of decades of bullying or misunderstanding?

In which case, you may be able to have a really fruitful, deep experience where you are if you can let that go. So thank you for shining the light on that process a little bit, but it sounds like continuous work as as are most things. Right? Mhmm. Why we do a practice.

Let's call it a practice. That's right.

Not a

perfect, a practice. That's right. Thank you for that. That's great. That's a really great thing.

Yeah.

I think that reminder of of safety and, like, when I was hearing you talk about, like, where we're at today and the amount of the lack of safety for so many, Like, I can relate a little bit because I've like, I know what it feels like in my body to, like, walk through this world feeling so unsafe so often of my day and, like, the the havoc that it wreaks on me. And one of the things that it can do to me is it like, if I'm going through the world constantly afraid of being judged, what I end up then doing is judging the world.

As a defensive mechanism.

As a defense mechanism. Right? And, like, I'm not my highest self in those moments, like, because I'm in a state of, like, fear. I'm in a state of feeling unsafe. And so if I'm walking through the world in that state, then I'm not vibrating at a high frequency.

I am, like, I'm gonna be judging so much.

Well, this is another another example then of, like, why embodiment practice, why yogic practices are so beneficial because most of them have a direct impact on our nervous system. And so if we are walking around the world in this sympathetic fight or flight, state, we are gonna be hyper vigilant for danger. And we all know that if I walk around the world looking for something, or it's deeply in my awareness, I'm gonna probably see more of it. Right? So it feels like a snowball kind of thing.

And these practices can give us the opportunity to turn the volume down just enough to get a little bit of clarity. And I would say this when I worked with my acupuncture patients, like do these practices especially when you're not in pain or when you're not, in that heightened state so that they you start to build that, neuro pathway. It gets more and more powerful. But just turning down the volume can help us create the necessary space between, feeling really unsafe and then having to judge or be aware of judgment for our own protection and, well, how is it I actually want to be right now? How is it I want to feel?

How is it I want to engage? So friendly reminder this will be an ongoing process especially if you're starting right now. You're gonna you're gonna try and there are gonna be moments when it works and moments when it doesn't work and moments when you are falling back into patterns of judgment or feeling really judged by other people and having that reaction. Be gentle with yourself. That's another aspect of men's work, of yogic work, of shamanic work, is it's a process and it's a slow sort of unfolding and allowing yourself to have that.

It is not a light switch. So it isn't stop judging. It's become aware of when you judge, how you judge, if it serves you, and and go from there. So bit by bit, bit by bit, putting it together.

Judgment isn't bad, y'all. Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna put a judgment on judgment. Mhmm. But, like, how can we use it for our benefit?

Right. Just, like, quick quick little story of this week. So the one of the biggest fears that I've been working through recently is the fear of judgment, of being judged by others, and how that creates such a, like, physical reaction in me. And, like, it definitely it just comes down to, like, if I'm being judged by others, that means I'm under their spotlight and I'm at their, like, whim of whether or not I belong, whether or not I'm accepted. And, like, that to me is, like can feel like death sometimes.

And so, like, there have been moments over the last, I would say, like, four or five days, like, as I've been thinking about, like, the the practice that I wanted to bring for the sharing circle and the embodiment circle this past week of, like, going through so much self doubt, so much self sabotage, so much self judgment based off of what I thought, like, other people were gonna judge me by. And so, like, by putting these practices together, I was going through my own practice. Mhmm. Right? And it was just, like, the amount of journaling that I was doing and, like, resentment clearing practices and, like, fearless and all these things of, like, just trying to, like, work through my own shit.

My own fear of judgment is what really inspired this week. You know? Because it is it's such a, like, such a powerful thing to recognize in us because it really can be so prohibitive. It can be so preventative of what we do in our lives, the actions that we take that could lead us to feeling better, to healing, to processing. And a lot of the times for me, that comes from a very vulnerable state where I'm gonna have to put myself into a position of being judged.

Yeah. Well and that's, like, the journey of the artist. Right? You have to be willing to try some things and see how they work and see how they fit, and and I would argue that some of the greatest pieces of art that have been created came from a process that had to be a little messy or go a little wrong at times or, you

know, have its own evolution. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing the space with me today. You feel complete?

I feel complete. Alright. Will you take us out? I will. Let's close our eyes.

Take a deep inhale. Soft exhale through the mouth. And with deep appreciation and gratitude for the shared space, the sacred circle, this conversation, any insights that came, any awarenesses. I wish all of the listeners safety, community, brotherhood, love. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken.

Uh-huh.