Healing the Wounded Boy: How Men's Work Helps Us Step Into Maturity with Soma Miller

Welcome back to the circle. Today, we're joined by Soma Miller, founder of the Essential Man, to explore how unresolved wounds shape our lives and how men's work, brotherhood, and embodiment practices can help us step into maturity, integrity, and purpose. Tim, Soma, are you ready to go all in? I'm ready.

Ready.

Let's do this then. So, Soma, I'm so glad you could join us here today. Could you share a little bit about your journey? What led you to men's work and the creation of the essential man? And how did your own experiences shape the work that you do today?

Yeah. So it's been been quite a long journey between, you know, the my introduction to men's work. I got into this work in my early twenties. I, was living in Southern California, was kind of inspired by this lecture presentation type of thing I went to about a man talking about rites of passage work. And, yeah, I just felt this kind of something awaken in me, like, kind of a hunger or a calling to understand what it means to be a man.

And I I don't know where even that came from. Right? That that whole, like, longing, but it spoke to me. And, soon after that, it was kind of like a series of serendipitous things that led me to finding, a teacher or, like, a mentor that was leading a group of men through a a year long rite of passage experience. His name was Francis Weller.

You know, since leading, a number of different, you know, groups such as mine through that work, he's done a lot of, really powerful writing and and, exploration around grief. That's kinda his his primary focus. But, yeah, it was, you know, the the the work that we did, it was one of his teachers and the kind of the lineage that he came through, was, a teacher by the name of Maladoma Somay, who's kind of like a indigenous elder shaman who came from Africa and, brought some of those more traditional rites of passage. And so, you know, Francis's work was, like, kind of an adaptation of of that that, you know, was a bit more designed to fit, you know, modernity and and our modern cultural conditioning. But it was very still much rooted in, how can we, in a way, reclaim our relationship to to nature and the sacred.

You you mentioned you mentioned in that, wanting to understand better, what it meant to be a man, and I'm curious if, divinity and connection to nature are two primary components from your view of what it means to be an authentic man today?

Yeah. I mean, it's a good question. You know, I for me, like, I I tend to lean away from any kind of blanket ideologies of, like, you know, this is how it should be, because I think it's really up to each man to discover that for himself. It's been very much a part of my life, and, yeah, it's certainly in my value system to advocate for the, you know, of course, like, the relationship to to nature, which is, you know, who we are fundamentally. But, you know, the way that we live in our modern lives is quite disconnected.

And and yeah. So to me, like, there is a truth in that that I live as a principal and and try to integrate into my work, without being too moralistic about it. But, yeah, I think, you know, how how we treat nature, our relationship to nature, is really a key component that I think is missing from a lot of men's lives, because we are you know, we we've kind of been conditioned and indoctrinated in this kind of command and conquer and control version of masculinity that has, you know, created a certain paradigm in our consciousness. Right? And I think that shows up in how we we relate on all different levels.

Right? So yes. And then as well as, like, the the sacred or the divine. Right? There's it's one of those things that, you know, a lot of people have an experience of.

It's hard to define what that is. It's more of a feeling. It's more of a possibility, more of a mystery. And, again, I think I think those things are kind of intertwined. Right?

Like, in some cosmologies of thought. Right? Like, the nature and that, you know, mysterious, un ineffable, unfathomable aspect of existence is actually more of, like, the feminine. Right? The the the divine feminine.

And, you know, in our kind of patriarchal worldview, we've cut this kind of very, like, masculine ideal of God or the divine. But that's that's not actually really what resonates for me. It's actually more the, you know, the divine feminine. It's like, it's that part of us that, you know, we can't really conquer. We can't ever fully understand, and that's a good thing.

Right? It kinda puts us in this place of humility, which creates a kind of openness, and I think that's a a very powerful way to operate.

Yeah. I resonate with that. And something that's that's striking me right now is your your comfortability level with with these themes and these topics. And so I'm curious if you could take us back to before your rite of passage and talk to me a little bit about, like, your youth and how, your did you have a connection to nature and the divine early on, or was it something that you discovered through this rite of passage that you went on?

Yeah. It's a good question. I mean, I, you know, I think I'm kind of a a unique being in a certain sense and that I and I grew up in a household that was very, like, creative, artistic, progressive thinking. And and so I think that certainly had an influence, on me. And I would say my relationship with nature is pretty inherent into my being.

You know, I came online pretty early in my life, but I just felt drawn to, like, gardening and just being outside and creating. And, however, you know, there were certain events in, you know, in early childhood and then, my teenage years that opened me up more. One of those being working with psychedelics, as a teenager, and it just kinda turned me on to that kind of vastness. Right? The the awareness of the interconnectedness of things, and and there was a kind of sense making that opened up in me and a of a contrasting with, like, you know, this awareness of, like, a connection to, like, this is how we're meant to live and and sort of contrasting that with this is kind of how we're living as a culture, and something just felt kinda off to me.

You know? And yeah. So those those were kinda built into my path. And, you know, I think the initiation for me, what that brought online you know, I think I was already, like, a deep introspective, creative, kinda mystical person, pretty early on as teenager. But, you know, that that rite of passage experience for me was really, about finding a sense of belonging in community, realizing that I'm not here to, like, process my emotions alone, that I need spaces where I can, like, bring my full self, particularly with men.

And it was also about learning to feel safe with men, you know, because I think even though I grew up in a household that was forward thinking and progressive, there was also with that came a certain, projection of, you know, the story that a lot of us hear these days. Like, men are bad. Men are the problem. Right? My mom had a lot of wounding with the masculine with her father.

Right? And so in a way, like, I'm grateful that I grew up in that environment, but I was a little bit, like, feminized. Right? Like, I wasn't my mom was not comfortable with masculine energy. And so, you know, it helped me to really develop my, you know, feminine creative side, but, I think it really took being around other men, in a sacred container that allowed me to to feel like, oh, yeah.

I I fucking love men. Like, men are amazing. Yeah.

So I'm curious about, like, the rite of passage, especially since, we're thinking about men's work, and specifically for queer men. I believe a lot of queer men that I know have had their own sort of rites of passage, like having to leave home, having to find often chosen family and and and new things. And so I'm curious because my experience of those are often that they're just sort of brushed upon the person. They don't exist in a safe container or or with, with, like, the safety that you mentioned. So could you talk a little bit about how you how or why you think men can really benefit from the safety of a container and in a in that right of passage, like, for all men?

Yeah. Well, you know, the I think because collectively, we have, for millennia, gone through these experiences. It's kind of, like, in our DNA. Right? Like, men used to be initiated.

And and so on some level, you know, I think part of the the psyche or the soul looks for that. And I think we we end up, in a way creating those rites of passages unconsciously and maybe, like, harmful or destructive ways because we're unconsciously looking for that structure to help us to really emotionally mature is really what I think the work is. You know? It's it's really our work as men is, like, how do we emotionally mature? How do we grow up?

And, you know, I think the the boy in all of us, right, is is looking to find, you know, an archetype that can can help us be an expression of our mature masculine. And, if we don't have those kind of containers, right, where it's modeled, right, it's transmitted, it's sort of, you know, what I found in in men's spaces, like, there is a consciousness that emerges when men get together that is, you know, as a whole, more developed than, like, an individual man trying to, like, up level his life. Right? Like, we try to do in personal development work. Right?

There's, like, something that comes alive and online that happens when when men merge together because there's just more of a field of awareness. And and so I don't really think like, there's a lot of people that try to self initiate. Right? And I just don't think it's really effective because we need it's like, you know, sitting in a room of, like, mirrors where we can see the back of our body and, like, our insides and, you know, all these parts that we we can't really see alone. Right?

We always are gonna have blind spots. And so, yeah, I think there's there's something that happens in that kind of container where our stuff comes to the surface. Right? It gets amplified. It gets activated.

The good and the bad. Right? All the all the stuff, the shadows, even our our beauty and our greatness. And, you know, it's it's hard to see all of it. It's hard to see even the good parts of ourselves.

And I really think that, maybe modern initiations are are a bit different than they needed to be in the past. I think men deal with so much shame and self deprecation that, you know, we need safe spaces for men to come and see who they really are.

Absolutely. The the the wounds from childhood really and can do a number on on people, and I'll speak from my own experience of, you know, like, the the wounds that I experienced early on caused me to grow up very quickly and start to put on this facade, this this armor that, like, I'm gonna be a man at the age of six. Right? And, like like, did not have the chance to fully be a boy. And it hasn't been until recently of my deeper dive into men's work and going on retreat and being with men that I've actually started to feel the the safety and comfort to, like like, let that boy out a little bit more and to allow, like you said, this this almost hall of mirrors to reflect back at me, the the wounds that I'm running from or that I'm afraid of and also the beauty that is inside of me as well.

And so just hearing you talk about that, like, I resonate with this this work so much because of that. And of being able to, like, start to, like like, let my inner boy out and, like, let him be held in the company of men and conscious men and on my way to becoming a conscious man myself.

Yeah. It's beautiful. I I love hearing that. And, yeah, I think there is a lot of grief that we carry as men because of that, you know, for different reasons. Right?

We we cut off parts of ourselves in this way. And, you know, my idea of emotional maturity is not about getting rid of the boy entirely. You know? It's more about looking at the strategies that the boy used to survive, right, or the parts of himself that he disconnected from so that, like, that healthy, integrated boy energy can kinda come online and and bring playfulness and that kind of awe and wonder and curiosity about life. Like, that's such an important vital energy.

And, but he needs to feel safe to bring that. Yeah.

You know, so I entered into men's work, shortly after pandemic, and I I went into this, coaching program. You know, everything had shut down. All my work was face to face. And I opted to go into a men's coaching program, men's wisdom work run by Zapparaka. And I did it because I was like I thought I'm afraid of straight men.

I have a a lifetime of proof that they are dangerous, and I need I felt like I needed to, walk into the environment to heal to heal that. And, and in that process since I've been in men's work since then, so clearly I I see, like, what it's capable of doing and why I wanna bring it to my community. But what I was fascinated by was, as a queer person, I had a mistrust of men. And a lot of other queer people that I knew, also had that mistrust. You just spoke about, like, your mom and sort of a cultural sort of, feeling around men or masculinity.

But then I learned, as you just voiced, other straight men were also struggling with their ability to trust men. That was the thing that I wasn't initially super clued into, but it felt, when I got there, like a shared experience. I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the importance of healing that. Like, how how we heal that that mistrust so that we can have the experiences that we all just mentioned.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to me, that's, like, one of the most potent aspects of men's work that I've experienced is really where we can kinda take down our guard. And and as men, like, learn learn to share the, you know, those deeper vulnerable truths. And, you know, I know vulnerability is kind of a buzzword, but it's really it's like, what are the things that we're afraid to share?

Right? What are the things that just feel, like, too taboo, too out there? There's so much shame around them. If we can lean into those things, what I found is that it just creates such a resonance, and, like, a a trust building that, you know, it draws us closer to each other, and we feel not alone. I think there's such a a loneliness in in the hearts of so many men because we feel like, you know, we're the only ones with the issue.

Right? We're the only ones struggling. I'm fucked up like nobody else is.

Yeah.

But, you know, when you start to share, you realize, oh, yeah. You got that too. Right? And and there's such a almost like a relief that happens. Right?

And it it I found that it when I witness men do that and when I've done that myself, it, it creates just such a freedom to be beyond the circle itself. Right? Beyond being in the group. Like, you realize that you're not so dark and twisted or that your dark and twistedness is okay. Right?

And and then, like, you know, it's just easier to relax into life and and just to be more yourself. And and then, like, the gift of that is just more more of all of you comes online. Just more creativity, more sense of connection and belonging. So there's just, like, a a multilayered way that it plays out. And I think it really also helps in relationships.

Right? Because I think there's, you know, the scary, vulnerable parts of ourselves that we think are are not okay to bring to our really close intimate relationships too. And it creates this kind of pressure, right, when when our intimate relationships are, like, the only place that that's allowed to come out. And I think when that happens, it just, you know, creates these kind of distortions, where it's harder for often for a partner to, like, be with that because we haven't learned how to be with ourselves. You know?

We haven't been reflected back that we're okay there. Right? Like, that's okay, that part of us. And and so I think the just to kinda emphasize when we sit in a circle and we can be held by all these different beings and bodies and minds and hearts, the the weight of holding ourselves is not so dense and heavy. And I think it then becomes easier for, like, a closer intimate relationship to be able to kinda metabolize what we bring.

Yeah. That's I think it's just so important. When people ask me about men's work, oftentimes, the question is coming from the outside in. So, like, well, how does that chi generator or how does that, like, journaling practice, like, how does that, you know, relate? And I try to tell people it's really about, like, this breadth of experience that allows us to show up more fully in relationship, in the way we engage in our world.

Like, the more I know myself, the more I know my edges, the more the more I know my capacities and, you know, my vulnerabilities, and the more that I'm able to show it, the more fully I can be with you. That's a hard thing, though, to, like, put in an Instagram post. Right? You know? And so you're

like, no. Right. Yeah. It is hard. Yeah.

I mean, that's always been the hard part is, like, selling men on the value of it. You know? It's it's such an experiential thing. Yeah. Yeah.

There's a man in, in a mere space, an embodied masculine, a a man that I love. I've known him for quite a long time. And I'm just on the last retreat, we were having this conversation, and I remember walking down from the hike thinking, like, here's this man that I I value deeply. We see each other, like, occasionally, once every two years or you know? But can call him whenever I need and feel held and heard by him, and he can do the same for me.

Mhmm. And I'm like, whatever Instagram post would be needed to, like, have that moment because you're like, well, that's part of the goal right there. That that ability to be like, I trust this dude. I can tell him every you know, it's, the magic in it.

The magic of of being held and supported to to know that you've got other people in the world that can relate to your experience, that it's not just your burden to carry by yourself. There's been a couple moments in my life where I've been able to really let my body relax someplace, and one of them was actually in a mud bath in, Napa Valley. Right? Like, I was in this like, I I didn't know what I was signing up for. I was like, that sounds fun.

So, like, me and an ex boyfriend and his brother, we just booked this, like, spa experience where we, like, sat in mud, and then they, like, threw more mud on top of us. And the the beautiful thing about a mud bath is that, like, the viscosity of it allows your body to, like, fully be suspended. And, like, you get to kind of, like, just let go because your body is being supported even though you're not sinking to the bottom. Right? You're just kinda suspended in this beautiful earth.

And that feeling is is similar to the feeling that I get when I'm with men who are also doing the work. I feel like I'm in this beautiful, warm, delicious mud bath with them where I'm, like, I can rest my body. I don't have to be so on edge, and I feel like I can actually just rest, like, be supported.

Well, it feels like it might be true for all men, certainly true for queer men, the sphere of abandonment. I feel like one of the things that men's work does, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, is it lets me know, oh, I can have a conflict, and I'm not immediately confronted with the idea of, like, this is gonna ruin my relationship. You're gonna stop being my friend. You're never gonna talk to me again. We're gonna get into a fight.

It you the the word

is reading the inside ticker of my mind right now.

Well well, just if you know

you have the tools and a conscious man in front of you, like, oh, I can bring a hard thing to this person, and it won't necessarily mean my abandonment or, like, the the destruction of everything that we've built. And I think I think specific like, a lot I think queer men have that experience, but I have to imagine straight men have that too. This, and then the tools allow a different kind of relaxation. You're like, oh, I can relax if I know this isn't gonna crumble with a with a light breeze.

Yeah. Yeah. %. I mean, I think I think that need to belong is such a quintessential aspect of our human experience, and, you know, it's very much survival based. So when that feels threatened, which is kind of constant in our modern, like, nuclear household way of relating.

Right? We don't really have a tribe where we got, like, 20 other people that love us, right, in in generally. So, you know, we invest so much into, like, our one other. And, when that feels threatened, right, that's when all of our survival strategies tend to come online. So we end up being, like, less authentic.

We withhold our truth. You know? We do, you know, do the things. Right? We we distract ourselves.

We numb. We run away. We hide. So, yeah, I think I think particularly when we can develop more of a kind of ecosystem of belonging. Right?

That just goes beyond our our intimate relationships. There's just more sustainability, and I and I really like to look at it as an ecosystem. I mean, this is another way that I bring in the nature as a model to, how we're supposed to live. Right? Like, there's rather than, like, having parasitic relationships, we're symbiotic with all these kind of, you know, interrelational support systems.

You know, a tree doesn't just rely on the dirt. You know? It relies on, like, the microorganisms. It relies on the roots of other trees. So there's all these kind of systems in place to support us, and I really, you know, fundamentally think that we as men have forgotten that have forgotten that we belong to something bigger.

And it it isn't just about our human to human relationships either. Right? It's also about our relationship to the universe, you know, to the sacred mystery, to the natural world. Like, we can get so much support and sustenance from just being outside. Yeah.

I'm, I'm interested. As you were talking, I'm thinking about this, like, symbiotic nature and and how we kinda moved away from it and this idea of this lone wolf, like, strong guy. And I think partly that became enticing because it felt sexy or cool. And then I the the question that sort of popped up is, like, well, how do we make, how do we make this other, like, this other possible expression that maybe a more authentic, expression of our masculinity also sexy? One that, like, one that, like, runs the gamut.

I mean, is the movie just too long? Does it need, like do you know what I mean? Like, because I like, oh, we all we all wanna be John Wayne or the Marlboro man or this, like, this guy who's always strong and never needs help and kind of always wins. But what you're kinda talking about is, oh, this this ability to ebb and flow where sometimes I am the strong the strength of the trunk. Sometimes I'm relying on other trees or the fungi or whatever.

You're like, you know so I'm curious if you have any ideas about, like, that.

Yeah. How how to make, interrelational masculinity sexy. That is the question. I love it. It's a good question.

And, you know, it's I'm I'm curious because I, you know, I don't know how much of this I mean, it sounds like it's not that much different from, like, you know, heteronormative programming and, you know, queer based promo programming. I don't really know that, you know, how it impacts differently. Right? Because I think I think there's a lot of women that say they want more of a man's vulnerability. Right?

But they're also, like, still looking for this archetype of, like, you know, the the strong man that's just, you know, the provider, whatever. But I think it's it's an it's a bit distorted and romanticized. Right? And I think I don't I don't know where that came online, to be honest. I don't I don't know if it's, like, Hollywood or fantasies, but I think there's a truth in, like, being able to be strong and resilient.

Like, that's valuable. It's useful. Like, we wanna be able to provide as men. But, like, I think how we do that, like, the you know, it's like a tree looks solid and strong on its own, but, you know, you don't see all the invisible relationships that are supporting it. And maybe that's where the distortion comes in is, like, where we only see the, you know, the strong successful guy.

Especially now, it's even more distorted. Right? Because we just see these, like, images of whoever somebody is from the outside. It's very superficial. Like, we don't know the underworkings of what allowed them to to get to where they are.

Right? And, and a lot of it's postured and fake too. Right? You don't you don't get

the full context. You get a snapshot. Right? You don't see the entire team behind somebody or all the the interconnections that allow somebody to look and appear successful. That person didn't make it all on their own.

There's so many different things at play that allowed for that to to happen. And So even think about the trees, it's like it's not just even the the fellow trees. It's also, like, rain and sun and, like, all these other things that, like like, have to come together to allow for that tree to grow and to be as strong and stable as it can be so it can with storm or withstand storms. You know? It's it's it's nourishment.

And so how do we how do we make nourishment sexy?

Well, I think in part, it's about allowing us allowing men to be more than one thing at one time. And I feel like there's a lot of education now about, like, well, you are you are, like, the provider, and it looks like this. And not having a robust conversation around, like, well, I can be, many things. So I have this one example. I used to be a professional dancer.

I can at times be, like, very, like, playful and, like, flamboyant. You know? And then so I had dancer friends come see me at work when I was assistant managing a gym in New York City called Crunch. And they said later, they're like, Tim, like, you you seem so upset. Like, what's going on?

I'm like, I'm not upset. I'm the manager. I was like, I like, both of these things are true expressions of who I am. Well, I can't I can't, like, do a high kick and, like, make everyone laugh when I'm the manager. I can do that in rehearsal on break.

Yeah. You know, just as an example, I think the more we have that the more all men have the ability to be like, I can be nurturing. I can be sensitive or a good listener, and then I could be primal in bed and make love to whomever I'm making love to. In that way, these can all coexist.

I would like to see a future, though, where something can coexist, and that's a manager doing a high kick while still managing. Right? Like, I, like, I I do believe there's also that those things should also be able to exist.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. I would do one right now if I were warmed up.

Woo. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I mean, one of the things that I've always, you know, kind of admired in the queer community is it seems I I mean, at least from from the outside, right, it seems like there is a little bit more per permission for, like, self expression, in more range. I I don't know.

You know, it could be different different layers of conditioning there. But, yeah, I think, yeah, for for myself, that's something I've had to to learn how to, bring online. And I think I've had to practice, you know, leaning into these these different layers of my being and and allowing them to be witnessed, right, in in a safe space so that I could feel like, alright. This part of me is welcome, and this part of me is welcome, and this part of me is welcome. And, you know, I think the the men that are really the sexiest and most attractive, just to bring it back to that point, are the men that have gotten to that point of, like, real self acceptance where they're not really giving a fuck that much about what other people think about them.

They're just kind of unapologetically who they are. And, you know, it's like, you know, all different. But we I mean, we see that in, like, the rock star archetype. Right? Like, where they're, you know, they could have, like, long flowing hair and, you know, big bell bottoms, whatever, and and they're, you know, totally considered masculine or desirable or whatever.

Right?

Yeah. You

know, whatever masculinity is, like, it's it's a bit of a nebulous concept on some level. Right? Like, we culturally form what that is to to a degree, and I think there's also some natural characteristics. Right? But it's all kinda coming through this lens of reductionism a little bit.

Right? And so as as soon as we reduce something to this this is how it is, it becomes, it starts to get distorted. Right? It doesn't really have the freedom to evolve. And and so that's kind of why I lean away from even some of the modern men's work stuff where it really tries to, like, rigidly define, like, this is what it means to be a man.

This is how you're supposed to show up. You know? I try to, you know, like, invite in masculine qualities. How can we play with them? Feel them in our body.

Get a sense of, like, oh, maybe I'm a bit cut off from that part, but not limit ourselves to that's what it means to be a man.

Yeah. Thank you for that. And I'm curious then, I imagine, the men that you work with, are drawn to you or the for the unique kind of medicine that you're bringing, how do you how do you see it positively impacting them?

I think some of what I've already spoken to is, like, it there's just a little bit more permission to be who they are, like and that turns into, like, self acceptance. Right? Like, oh, yeah. Like, this part of me is okay. Like, it's okay to sometimes feel, like, needy and dependent.

And, you know, I think the problem is not the neediness, you know, or whatever the the thing that we think is wrong. It's it's the problem is that we think it's wrong. Right. And so that makes it become something like an expression that can then actually become toxic. Right?

Because we are, having this layer of shame over it, and it becomes like a shadow form of the thing that really is just a, you know, energetic expression of being.

Mhmm.

But when we suppress and we judge and we reject, these things that are true to who we are. It's true to our essence. Right? Like, my my brand is called the essential man. It's really about men tapping into their true essence.

And and that is, you know, this unique signature of humanity that moves through you that really can't be defined and encapsulated. You know? It's just is. And, you know, ultimately, that's really my mission, right, is to to give men space to embody their true essence of being. And and that's just, like, really living beyond conditioning and and being free to be who we are.

And I see that when men, like, really confront their shame and feel like it's okay to show up. You know? It might start just in a container, a coaching container, where it's like, hey. Let's welcome that part. Right?

He's he's safe to be here. Like, what does he need? What does he want? And and that allows for men to show up more authentically, bring their hearts more, share their truth, be more honest, express their desires, all of these things.

When you were speaking, the image that kept popping up for me was the image of a piano as if as if it, like, sort of represents the, like, the whole range of human experience. And then each person or each song, you're like, oh, I may I may not use every key. I get to experiment with, like, what is available, and then I can find, like, the range where I'm most comfortable. But, like, even the recognition of, like, oh, I can I can resonate this note and this note and this note and this note, feels like a really powerful possibility? And then it feels like men's workspaces are creating that space into which we can start to explore, what parts of us exist and maybe how much of it we want.

Right? Like, I yeah. Just maybe I want a a pinch of this and two cups of that, and that's that's my recipe.

Right? All all notes are welcome. And if your piano is a little out of tune, don't worry. We got you. We will help tune it up a little bit so that you can continue to play all of those beautiful notes and find the melody that is the truest expression of you.

Mhmm.

So beautiful analogy. Yeah. Yeah. I love what you're saying, Soma, about, like, this the the the language that I keep hearing you saying is warm and inviting and welcoming. And I think that, like, the more that we feel invited, the more that we feel welcome, the more it gives us kind of permission to welcome ourselves.

Like, for at least for my journey. Right? Like, I I've had to experience the warmth of others to better welcome myself. And I know that, like, sometimes people are like, oh, you should be able to do all the the hard work on yourself, and, like, you should just be able to accept yourself. And it's like, well, that's not where I'm at, and I actually need a little bit of support.

And I do need to be needy, and I do need to get that that welcoming from somebody. And the the ability to receive it, to receive warmth, to receive somebody's invitation is just one of the most beautiful things in the world and is something that is allowing me to welcome more of myself online as well.

Yeah. I mean, that validation goes a long way. And, you know, it it can it can also be a little bit of a trap, right, where we're we're constantly seeking outside validation. But but I think when it's an intentional space I mean, just going back to the idea of a container. Right?

Like, if we're I think there's a real distinction between when we're unconsciously seeking something and when there's a conscious place where we can get that need met, and it's very intentional to to show up there, and and that's what it's there for. Right? It goes in deeper, and it actually fills the voids that we try to fill in these indirect ways often.

So we talked a lot about, like, some of the the court or childhood wounding that we might experience and how that kinda manifests itself, you know, in in moments of, like, trigger and then moving into the conscious man. So, like, as we start to get towards our our wrapping up, I wanted to talk a little bit about, like, some, like, practical things that people might be able to start doing today. You know, maybe it's their first time hearing about some of these things. Like, what are some of the things that you would recommend for Soma and then you, Tim, of, like, starting to get into this.

Yeah. I mean, there there's a lot. I think, you know, there's definitely, like, self work. Right? We talked a lot about men's work and group work and, you know, it's not a fix all, right, being being in men's work.

We we really have to show up for ourselves. And, you know, some men are not % ready for stepping into that kind of space, maybe trust or safety issues, whatever. But, you know, if you are feeling kinda stuck or just repeating patterns in your life or self sabotaging, you know, a lot of lot can happen when you're willing to cultivate self awareness. Right? And, and it's one thing to, you know, retrospectively have awareness of, like, oh, yeah.

I fucked up. Like, that sucks and, you know, can't really turn back the clock. But, you know, one of the classic tools for cultivating self awareness is learning to to sit and meditate and just to be still and just to watch. And it's you know, if you're new to that practice, even that's kinda difficult without some guidance and some structure. But, you know, your ability to just, like, sit in your experience and, like, stay there.

And I think there's different types of meditation, and there's forms that are a bit more embodied. And I think, one of things I'm one of the things I'm just a huge advocate for is men learning how to really sink into their bodies more fully, and and that really you know, there's there's a lot a lot to describing what embodiment is, but for me, it really begins with, can you really stay with the sensate experience without ejecting, right, without going off into thought, without trying to distract yourself? Because that, I think, particularly in modern day, is just one of the vital skills that we all need to have. You know, we live in this, like, ADHD world that is really cultivating more of that. Right?

How can we distract ourselves? How can we move away from and I I think we really, as men in particular, need to learn how to just be still, be connected, and be present with and allow things to arise and and to stay with them, stay with the feelings, stay with the sensation because that skill carries over into just about everything in life.

I couldn't agree with you more. I, I would I would say that embodiment and creating a conscious relationship with our own body is such an important, step. And I think one of the reasons for me is because there's an assumption that I've heard. Of course, we all have a relationship with our body because I'm in my body all the time. And I've noticed, that that isn't true.

That there are, you know, there are people who, for lots of different reasons, don't allow themselves to sit in their own physical experience and feel what the thing is. And and then when that feeling gets too big to ignore, I think that's often when we will run to, things that will help to turn it down. And so just cultivating that, which brings me back to, like, why is a chi generator or a yoga class or, you know, anything like that, the this creation of a relationship, a conscious relationship with our own body, which then is the conscious relationship with our own feeling, is a a powerful tool, a powerful tool so that we can make choices from that place. I feel like I feel like we're saying the same thing and that, you know, stillness is one way to do that because, busying ourselves can can sort of muddy the water there a little bit. But, also, for those who are still, there are these other kinds of practices that can welcome you into, well, what does what does challenge really feel like and what happens in me when I meet the challenge?

So I talk about this all the time, not just in embodiment circles, but in yoga classes. I'm like, we're not we're not getting to our edge because it's the most impressive variation of what we're doing. We're getting to our edge so that we can then practice with all the things that come up. And, you know, you've probably heard this a hundred times. I've said it many times.

If something comes up on our yoga mat, it comes up in our life. So when I'm at my edge, if I start to wanna run away, that's a thing I need to become aware of. If I start to if I start to get angry at the yoga teacher, which people do, that's the thing I should be aware of. You know, and that's why I'll make a joke about it. But, anyway, so piggybacking on what you said, I I couldn't agree more.

I think that conscious relationship with our body is a tool of the conscious man for deeper and deeper authentic engagement.

Yeah. %. And I'm I'm a huge believer in in yoga. I've been practicing for over a couple decades. And, you know, one thing to be aware of, though, is particularly particularly maybe as a man or just, you know, how we tend to practice yoga as modern people is it can be it can kind of hook into a lot of the already prevalent masculine conditioning around performance, right, where it's sort of more about, like, a competition of, like, doing, versus being, right, and and really connecting to our experience.

So I think it's just important to realize where you're coming to it from. Right? Are you doing it to, like, try to prove something, or are you really learning you know, it's the same practice no matter what you're up to, whether it's yoga or doing the dishes. Like, am I really able to be with this? Right?

We, had a conversation about this several episodes back where I was that person in a yoga class, like, feeling the competitive edge, and I coined the phrase, people doing the poses the mostess, where, like, you know, you're in this class with these people that are super experienced and, like like, if if you're not aware of your own tendencies, you can get swept up into that very quickly like I did, and then I got injured because I was like, oh, I could do this. No. I could

not. I'll often remind people in class that, sometimes the the hardest or most advanced pose that they could do in that moment is not the fullest expression of the pose, but to honor where they're at. And, like, one good example is, like, full wheel pose. Right? You're like, and then reminding people, oh, your your real practice might be recognizing that full wheel is not available to you today.

And that and then it doesn't mean anything about you if the person next to you is in full wheel and you're in half wheel.

Absolutely.

But that to me feels like the real yoga when you're like, I'm I'm connecting with what is and working with that, and it's not about the photo.

And really learning to ride your own ride. That's one of my favorite phrases that I've ever learned. Learned it in motorcycle training safety school, and it's like Mhmm. It follows me everywhere. Right?

Like, the more that I can ride my own ride and feel confident to do that means that I've welcomed more of my own experience and trusting of my own self in, and I'm reliant less on the outside world. I'm reliant less on outside authority. So sometimes in a yoga class, I may need to ride my own ride. I may need to say, I cannot look at outside authority right now, and I need to do my own practice. You know, while still respecting the space and the intention of of that space, I think there's, you know, something to be said there.

Yeah. I mean, there's there's definitely the gift of, like, tapping into that warrior and just, like, pushing and you know, I think men sometimes do need to develop that part of themselves, particularly modern men, if they've gotten a little too soft, right, and a little too because, like, indulgent in, you know, comfort. So I think yeah. I don't wanna throw that out, but, you know, what I've noticed in myself as my practice has deepened and because I have a very competitive side of me and and, you know, I'm strong physically. I'm capable.

I can do a lot with my body, and it feels good on a certain level. But there is a way that we can disconnect and disembody even in, like, a a powerful body based practice like that. And like you said, like, there is something about you know, I think as we go deeper into healing our stuff and our patterns, there's just more of a subtlety to the the path and the practice, and this is a little bit more advanced level than somebody just kinda stepping into this. But, you get to notice those little nuances and and learn how to you know, in somatic experiencing, they they talk about something called, like, pendulation. Right?

So you, you know, you it's not just about always being at full throttle, right, and pushing our edge like that. It's like, can you lean into that edge, come back out of it, lean into it, and, you know, you kind of expand slowly over time. And I I I think that's how we cultivate both the kind of masculine and the feminine within us. Right? Those there there's like an interplay between those two that allows each one to develop in its own way.

They kind of keep expanding out if there's awareness to both of them. And so it's like the masculine might be more that, like, push. Let's go. Let's let's do this. Right?

Mhmm.

And the feminine is more like, hey. Wait. Hold on. Is this safe? Like, can I go there?

Can I open? Right? So it's kinda dancing between those two. And I think as men, we need to to develop both of those capacities so that we can, you know, lead ourselves well into healing, into more depth, into more expansion, but also be able to bring that leadership to our relationships.

I I love it. It's got me thinking of the the visual of the clutch. Right? Like, the throttle or the clutch of, like, you know, with a car or a motorcycle. Right?

It's being able to, like like, find that that tension, right, of, like, you know, when to accelerate, when to pull it back, and kind of just that that dance that happens there. So Mhmm. Love hearing. Yeah.

What a

great description of the human experience. It's interesting because we think about when I think about the ocean and how sometimes it can sort of, like, gently ebb and flow, other times how it can be so powerful. And we never, we never have, like, a fear of judgment where I sometimes feel men in their pursuit of understanding this balance that we're talking about, fear the perception of weakness, fear the perception of gayness or or or queerness at times. But if we if we could release that a little bit, then we would start to recognize, oh, it really is an ebb and flow, and I never call the tide weak, you know, or the current. Anyway, that was a well said.

Thank you. Beautifully said.

Yeah. Alright. Is

there any final thoughts? How are you feeling? Are you feeling complete?

I just wanna say thank you so much for coming and having this conversation with us. It's been an absolute pleasure, and I can't wait to have numerous more conversations with you, but, hopefully, also, share a a physical space at some time, come to a workshop, or, you know Mhmm. Been great having you.

Yeah. It's been a I I I love where the conversation has gone. It's really been enjoyable, and, you know, I look forward to to further sharing.

Beautiful. Thank you so much. Tim, will you take us out, please?

I absolutely will. Let's close our eyes, allow ourselves to settle. And as we do settle into appreciation and gratitude appreciation and gratitude for this sacred space for this conversation, for any insights, awarenesses that came, any takeaways or nuggets of gold that we will hold on to. And in this moment now, we release the archetypes and the spirits. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

Thank you so much for joining us here in the circle. If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queer men's embodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken.

Uho.