Masculine and Feminine Energies: Finding Balance Beyond Gender

Welcome to The Circle. A queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Baumier. Welcome to episode 2 of the circle, the podcast for queer men's embodiment. In this episode, we're going all in on the concepts of masculine and feminine energies and how they shape our lives beyond the limits of gender and sex. Today, we'll explore these dynamic forces, challenge societal norms, and talk about how we as queer men interpret these energies and use them to find our authentic self expression. Tim, are you ready to get started?

I am very ready.

Let's dive in. So this topic of the masculine and the feminine was a challenging one for me to wrap my head around when I first started getting into this work. I'd get trapped in in bias and stereotypes around gender and sex and had a hard time connecting with the concept of energies. So could you help our listeners understand what it is we mean when we talk about masculine and feminine energies?

Yes. I feel like I should say right up front that it is hard for me to have this conversation without it coming very clearly through the lens of a queer person or a gay person, because I've had I've had the same challenges that you just mentioned, similar ones. And because I have had a lived life experience where, being referred to or compared to anything feminine, we as we discussed previously is not only, insulting at times, but also like a signal of danger. So so I do think before we even talk about it, like as a gay person and a queer person, these concepts and the words that we use, can be tricky and can take a minute to kind of unpack. And I have had many experiences, I'm sure we'll get into it later, where I think a lot of queer people, but specifically gay men who have had feminine attributes weaponized against them, struggle with these concepts.

So I was first introduced to the concept of masculine and feminine energy when I was doing my men's coach training through men's wisdom work. And it was spoken about in this polarity. So these qualities that exist along a spectrum that can ebb and flow. And I was introduced to them through a book called, Way of the Superior Man by David Data who is a pioneer in the men's workspace and I think a primary teacher of some of the most influential men that are currently in that space. And he talked about, these these energies and specifically with regards to sexual polarity and sexual essence and trying to help people.

And specifically this book was trying to help, masculine identified or masculine, masculine energized beings to understand how to work with these concepts. So, so far I have not answered your question. Right? But that's the lead up to, the idea of something existing, in a range, polarity, positive negative, sun and moon. Masculine and feminine are another way of thinking of this.

And for me, the way that I think about it that makes the most sense is more yin and yang. Now it's partly because I am an acupuncturist and worked as an acupuncturist for many years in New York City. This idea of yin and yang, I have come to find exhibits the same idea that energies can exist on a spectrum and at any given time there could be different percentages of one to the other. 1 often is, predominant over the other. But if we think about the yin and yang theory, there's always both.

So yin and yang, people who will recognize the Tai Chi, that that very famous, white and black circle with the two dots. Right? And, that is to represent that yin is always flowing into yang. Yang is always flowing into yin and that they always contain each other. So that it was said one of my acupuncture teachers said if something is 100% yin or 100% yang, it is dead.

Like if we're talking about it in the context of humanity and health. So from there, you start to think, oh, well then on the spectrum between what is rigid and what is flowing, What is, intangible and what is tangible. What is hot and what is cold. What is heavy and what is light. And one of the reasons why Chinese medicine is so helpful is because they have these different principles.

And one of the examples that I like to use is the hot and cold. Specifically, well, let's just talk about it in regards to nutrition where qualities of food can be described as hot or cold. And it isn't just the like, it's relative to each other. So for example, pretty basic idea. In Chinese medicine or according to Chinese medicine, meat is almost always considered hot relative to vegetables, which would be considered cold.

But if we just took meat and made it its own section, then within meat, we would say that fish is colder than beef. Now fish would still be warmer than cucumbers but colder than beef. And so it's you're like, oh, it exists on this this range.

It's a continuum.

Right. And so and that we could start to figure out like, okay. So now if I'm gonna plan a meal and I wanna have, like, balance, I can start to consider with like, well, oh, this item and this item are both considered really, really hot. Maybe in order to create a balanced meal, I might wanna bring something in that's a little bit cooler to create some balance. Or and then in Chinese medicine, you might say, oh, a person is suffering.

They're not well, and they have too much cold. Well, then you might in like infuse their diet with things that are warm in order to help warm them. Right? So so this Nourish

them with that opposite, that contrast.

Right. And in Chinese medicine, it's often meant to strive towards creation of balance, which is like the place from which they think there is optimal health. The same can be true for masculine and feminine in the way that I've been trained where you start to look at situations, you start to look at relationships and you can start to ask yourself, well, which energies are predominant right now and like how imbalanced are they? And then if there is a need for a balance, like what can I what can I enter in? So I will offer one other anecdote before I let you ask me another question, which is one time I was on a phone call with a bunch of brothers who were doing the coach training that I mentioned.

And we were, we were all trying to figure out, the right timing for this practice session. Like what time was going to work for us? And we had recently, you know, talked about these concepts. And so I'm on the Zoom call, someone is in Hawaii, someone is in upstate New York, you know, we're all over the world. And, we're all being really nice to each other, very accommodating.

And I remember pausing and thinking, oh, I think we're all sort of relaxed into our, of something we might describe as our more feminine, our more yin. And I'm like, and I think what might be of service in this moment is if someone were to step a little bit more into their yang to help us create some balance and then ultimately get to the decision. And so I decided I was going to practice that. And so I did and I became a little bit more decisive, a little bit more assertive, like made of recommendation and it actually was the solution. It was of greatest service.

All these people who were trying to be really accommodating needed one thing and then we and then that was the catalyst for the ultimate solution that we all agreed upon and then we got off the phone call and it was great.

So you just mentioned a couple characteristics there, assertiveness, decisiveness. So these are characteristics that we would associate with the masculine. And are they also associated with maleness? Right? And, like, that's where the the gender stereotypes start to come in.

And that's where going back, like, that's where I think I struggle and many people do struggle is how do we separate the concept of energy from who we are as people. So we can take us through some of those characteristics and some of the, general characteristics that we find in masculine, energy and some in the feminine energy. What is the yin and the yang?

Exactly. So masculine qualities, can be things like presence, directionality, structure, leadership, decisiveness, and their implied meaning for these things can be things like being purpose driven, being protective, being courageous, being strong, being disciplined or assertive, stable or in integrity. The feminine, those qualities are the qualities of love, intimacy, receptivity, surrender, radiance, creativity, being empathetic and relational. And the implied meaning there can be being emotional, kindness, sensitivity, tenderness, pleasure, vulnerability, flow. But those are, those are energetic qualities and all beings have both.

So we can talk in a second about, like in this book, David Deida discusses how we will have our own, especially sexually, we'll have our own, default setting where we feel most comfortable, like the place where we feel most comfortable. But everybody has both. And I think one of the important things about men's work is providing men an opportunity to start to connect to and with both aspects of themselves because we've been given this messaging that men are supposed to be a certain way. I think part of that messaging has been to ignore or deny the feminine aspects of you in an attempt to not be characterized as feminine, to not be, to not be degraded or or chipped away at your masculinity by having feminine qualities.

Because of how tightly we've associated femininity with being female or of being a female identified person.

Yes. And and that's exactly right. And and there's a real detriment if a masculine essence being cannot access their feminine. In the same way, there's a detriment if a feminine essence being cannot access their masculine. So think for example about, the father who is unwilling to be nurturing out of training or fear that it would somehow feminize him and then chip away at his, like, sense of masculinity.

That that is actually not in service to him, his life experience, or his family or his community. But it might be a thing that he is either doing consciously or unconsciously because he wants to be this sort sort of stoic version of what he thinks masculinity should be.

Right. He wants to be a stereotype.

And it might not even be that he wants to be. He might he might be existing in a context where he's been told that is the only right way to do it. So I do want us to be pretty generous, like with ourselves and with others when it may not be a conscious decision, I'm not going to be nurturing to my children because I don't want to look like a girl and there's inherent misogyny and all of that. It might be, this is all I've ever seen. This is what these certain things have been rewarded and these other things have not.

Sometimes these other things have been punished or ridiculed or whatever the thing is. And so now I've created this worldview and this manner of engagement in this world that is congruent with all those things whether or not they serve me. And men's work is the opportunity to start to ask yourself, do they serve you? And what can you do to step into a more authentic manner of engagement and expression in your life? A lot of men, we talked about this, a lot of men are capable of nurturing and nurturing doesn't have to look the way the women in those men's lives might also nurture.

They're like let's open ourselves up to the possibility that there can be lots of kinds of nurturing. And I I would I would suggest in this moment that the really the only important thing about how you nurture is how authentic it is. So maybe it isn't like the shushing and the stroking. Maybe it's a maybe it looks and presents itself differently. But if it's still genuinely nurturing, I suspect that man or that person, that masculine identified person, will benefit from that authentic expression.

Nurturing, caring for somebody can come in the form of creating structure for somebody. Right? That person may need a little bit more structure in their life. And so bringing in one of the masculine characteristics of structure, creating containers, and and groundedness and consciousness into something can be the nourishment, the care that somebody needs to thrive. Right?

And so that in that in that way, we can start to activate these different characteristics and start to flow in between the poles of saying, like, I am gonna do something nurturing, but I'm gonna do it my way in the way that is authentic to me, that is my expression of care. And as long as that is also how that other person is is receiving that care and that nourishment, then it's a win win, it sounds like.

Yeah. And but it's gonna take some practice for that person who has never allowed themselves even the idea that it might be a part of them. Right? So they it may not happen instantly. You're gonna have to do a little uncovering and figure out, well, how do you how do you nurture as an example?

I wanna offer a story, for the listeners. I am a, I've been a yoga teacher now for almost 2 full decades. And I studied and trained with the school, Jivamukti Yoga with, Sharon g and David g. And in this training, which I believe is one of the best yoga trainings available or was at least at the time I was doing it, I got an enormous amount of value. But anyway, in this training, we were told that in order to be in Jivamukti yoga open class, you had to hit 14 points.

There were 14 things that were required in order for it to be a Jivamukti yoga open class. And if you did not do these 14 things, it was not a Jivamukti yoga open class. And we were being trained to understand and present and deliver this open class. And initially, people in the training were asking, well, is this constricting? Is this limiting in what we can do because we have all these like guideposts.

And I remember they were like the teachers Sharon G and Devaji, they were like, no. It is the vehicle through which so much creativity can come. And through my own personal experience, nothing could have been more true. So much creativity in my ability to create sequences and offer practices and experiences, through the practice of yoga asana came because of these structures. Now in that time, no one was telling me, oh, well, the 14 points are holding the masculine pole in this method.

And then once there's the integrity of that masculine structure, then allow all this feminine creativity to flow and they are working together. So to me it is a really beautiful example of well, if without the structure, the feminine flow can be chaotic. With too much structure, you can start to, tighten or close things off. When there's a balance of those things, well, then we have flow. And I'll just say one more thing because I'm feeling excited now.

One of my favorite images when we think about masculine and feminine is the river and the river banks. So the banks of the river are the masculine. It is the structure. And then the the water and the flow of the river within those banks is the feminine. And both are absolutely necessary in order to have a river.

Or you either have like like a dry ravine or chaotic flooding. The river requires both. So and now all of our listeners, if you're not familiar, like, Google when you have a moment, what the Tai g is and look at that white folding into the black and the black folding into the white and the dots. It's like this is the representation of these things where it's only in conjunction and in collaboration with each other that flourishing is happening and that's what this work is trying to do for each of us in our lives.

Yeah. These are really helpful examples because they're not about human. They're not about a man or a woman. They're about qualities and characteristics of something. So the river banks being the masculine and the structure container to hold the flow and the chaos of the water, right, is really helpful to start to, pick apart that these energies have nothing to do with our gender expression, our gender identity, or our sex, or our sexual preferences.

Right. And they we can start to understand ourselves sexually through this lens. But yes. And I'd like to say, you know, I have a this client, one of my coaching clients, a straight man married to a woman. And all beings are capable of these things and we are capable of stepping into things.

So you can step into the masculine when you are, I'm the boss, I'm in charge, I'm the project manager, I'm creating the structure, the timeline, whatever. Or I'm in the flow. I'm the creator, you know. And so in this particular relationship, I said the wife was a very successful business owner and their relationship was suffering. And I you know, after I learned a little bit about it, I said, your wife is stepping into her masculine energy a lot, in this system in order to do the things that she's doing so successfully.

Nothing wrong with that. I said, but it might create greater balance then when she comes home if you can be a holder of the masculine so that she can then fall into her feminine. And one of the things they were saying was that, you you know, their sexual chemistry was being affected. I'm like, right, she's she's not gonna be able to relax with you in that way if you if you can't hold it for her. And when we think about these energies, we need to think about it in that way.

How can I utilize this information in order to live my life consciously and aware so that I can be my most authentic and create the space for others to do the same?

Yeah. Understanding that these labels are tools for understanding energetic dynamics and how they are not fixed, that we are on a spectrum, and there are certain times when we have to activate certain characteristics and tap into them to feel into because we're feeling into what is needed in the moment. Mhmm. And so that could be in this example, this this husband saying, oh, I'm sensing that my my partner has

been

in their masculine all day long. And I know because I've had a conversation with them or I just trust and believe, like, you know, that's not how they want to express themselves when they cross the threshold into the house. Right? And that they want to fall into their feminine and they want to fall into that not having to have all the right answers and not having to, you know, hold space for people and be conscious. They want to flow and they want to, have more of their emotional expression and intuition, you know, going through them.

Mhmm. And so, in what ways can we have those conversations with our our partners about these these energies and how to, talk about them with with our partners or with people in our lives so that we understand, like, preferences and, like, what's useful when?

That's a great question, and I think we would start one might start with first looking at them in their own life, which I think is a thing that unless you're doing this sort of work or aware of these ideas, you might not really be thinking about it that way. As you start to think about, well, when when am I being really decisive or creating a lot of structure? When am I allowing myself into more creative flow? How do I feel in those moments? When do I feel best?

What what is actual balance? When you start to ask these questions in your own life, you'll start to get more clarity not just about how they work, but about how they work specifically for you. Then when you have a sense of, oh, these are the environments into which I like to be in leadership and directive, these other places are where I like to allow myself more flow. I I appreciate someone else creating a a container into which I can relax and flow. Then the more you're going to be able to speak to that to someone else.

And then you might have to choose wisely and mindfully the language that you use because they may not be they may not be versed in either masculine and feminine or yang and yin, or sun and moon and help them know. But I think

Still the benefit of being able to identify where you exist along the spectrum and where you kinda gravitate, You know, where is your predominance. Right? Like, because it is, you know, possible that you can be identified as a male, and you may fall predominantly into feminine characteristics and qualities.

That is such a good point. You I can you say that again? Because that not only is that so true, a lot of the straight, cisgendered men powerful leaders that I know identify as having, like, feminine energetic essence, like, bodies. They're they're they're energetic or emotional body. They identify as feminine.

So would you say that again? Because it can be true. It is it is frequently true.

Mhmm. So the more that we can reflect on our own nature of where we feel the most authentic, where we experience the most authenticity in the different parts of our lives, we can start to identify where along the spectrum of masculine and feminine within different parts of our lives that we default to, or that we, feel the most comfortable where we have the most, predominant energy arousal Mhmm. Right, or of, energetic connection synergy. And that could look like, in some cases, a a male or a male identifying person being more in their feminine in the majority parts of their life. So they could be way more emotionally expressive.

They could be way more into flow and creativity and and, you

know, pursuit of love. Right. So so a a person who identifies as a man can have an energetic like, a feminine energetic essence. And a person who identifies as a woman can have a masculine, energetic essence according to these teachings. That's absolutely right.

And just to be clear that, like, you can be a man with a feminine essence. You can be a woman with a masculine essence. And it isn't it isn't the same thing as identity. We are talking now about people who are recognizing the the their energetic essence in the context of their identity. I identify as a man and I identify as what might be described as a more neutral, neutral essenced being.

But I'm a man. That is how I identify. That's how I feel. Right? But there are moments when

So this is the first time we're talking about neutral essence. So can we unpack that a little bit more?

Sure. So, I'm just gonna actually read something from from The Way of Superior Man because I think it'll be helpful. David Deida writes, about 90% of people have either a more masculine or more feminine sexual essence. He's speaking specifically here about sexual essence. Passionately, lovingly, and fiercely, they would like to be ravished by or to ravish their intimate partner at least some of the time in addition to having loving friendship.

This holds true for homosexual and heterosexual people alike. About 10% of people, men and women, heterosexual and homosexual, have a more balanced essence. Boxing matches and love stories equally make them emotional or not. It doesn't really matter to them whether their lover is physically stronger or more vulnerable than them. Sexual polarity isn't just isn't that important to them in relationships anyway.

Now that last sentence I sort of disagree with. But this idea that like most people will feel either I'm drawn to a more masculine essence or a more feminine essence. And then there are like fewer people, David, data suggests approximately 10% that are somewhere that are somewhere in the middle. And that's what we mean by a more neutral or balanced essence. So when I when I self identify as someone who is more balanced, I believe, that I flow naturally in moments of very masculine expression and very feminine expression energetically and can ebb and flow pretty quickly.

And even among a lot of my queer friends, I feel like I do that more naturally than they do. A lot of my friends, I'm like, oh, it seems fairly clear where you tend to be and where you are most comfortable. So it's not good or bad. It's just how it is.

Mhmm. And I think this is this is where it starts to, challenge a lot of the ways in which, at least, I was raised in the world, and this is where it becomes really hard to, like, navigate these terms. And it's it's there's gender, there's sex, there's sexuality. You even read from David David, like, it was, 90% are it was sexual essence. Sexual essence.

Yeah. Right? So, like, even in that term, I'm, like, okay. So now we're talking about, like like like procreative sex? Right?

Like, how you want to have sex? Or are we talking about our biological sex? Like, what is their body?

Well, this book that I just read from, I think he's talking about how we relate sexually. And so I think as as essentially, he's saying if you want that sort of passionate connection, then if you have 2 people who are both prone to be the ravisher, then it it may end up becoming problematic. Or if you have 2 people who both wanna be ravished and he's sort of saying what is an ideal situation is to find someone who wants to ravish. That person finds someone who wants to be ravished vice versa. And then in that sexual essence polarity, they will have, a robust shared experience.

I think there's also a conversation around that can that can change. So it doesn't have to be, like, every time, all the time.

Right. Kinda going back to the Chinese medicine of, like, it's contextual of, like, something may be considered hot in comparison to something else.

Mhmm.

Right? And so, like, ravishment in comparison to what? So, like, there's different levels, layers, right, of that as in it's not always gonna be consistent. It's going to change and it's gonna be different depending on what you're comparing it to.

Right. And I and this book talks about and these ideas talk about many of us, most of us maybe even, will have a tendency to be one thing. And so even if you can ebb and flow, like, but probably like 85, 90% of the time, I'm still really interested in this and this. I'm still very attracted to or turned on by that. And he the suggestion is that most of us are somewhere in that place and we could still ebb and flow.

And then this neutral balanced idea is like well maybe I can go, maybe it's closer to 5050. I can be both things and get a lot of value from both things. But I think the idea is that recognizing, well, where do you tend to fall? Where is your comfort zone? But then do you allow yourself even a little bit of the other aspect of you?

And with men's work, have you have you cut off any any version of your feminine expression because it didn't fit in culturally within your within your community or your family or whatever, and to what detriment?

Mhmm. So men's work, if I'm hearing correctly, can encourage men to explore the fuller range of expressions without fear or shame preventing them from doing so or at least confronting those fears and shames to allow for a little bit more play and exploration in that.

So when we start to talk about these energies, it really is it is like a dance. It is like an ebb and flow where it's like, well, I I need actually we all need the ability to to do both. And so, you know, for our listeners, I'm a men's work facilitator and embodiment practice facilitator. We've talked about this a little bit. And that process, as you know, in your training, that process is a blend of having exquisite structure and specific drama and creation of space and time integrity and an idea of where we're headed, an arc of the experience, all of that.

And then in the presentation of it, an like a need for me then to also fall a little bit into my feminine so that I can feel and flow with whatever is happening in that moment and then be held by the structure that I've created so that I can make adjustments as needed and respond to what is happening in this moment. That, I think, not that I wanna self congratulate, but that's the idea of like, well, the more we practice, the more we can hold both and flow with both and decide, oh

What's needed in the moment?

Like, maybe I need more masculine structure right now because things are getting a little, a little bit too chaotic. Or, oh, everyone's super rigid. I need to bring in something that allows for more, expression and, like, what might that look like? And the thing is then it's not an exact science in the sense of, you know, in any given moment, it might be hard to know precisely what is needed, you know, in the context of this conversation. But if you're tapped into those energies, then there will be some intuitive understanding of like, oh, I need to I need to tighten.

I need to loosen.

I need to I need to, like, bring more direction or I need to allow more, improv. There's artistry involved. There's skill involved. There's craftsmanship involved in, like, training these these awarenesses of these essences of these energies and feeling into those moments of, like, what's needed. Like, I've got this this, you know, toolkit here and like like look through it and can say, oh, it needs a little bit more of this.

It needs a little bit more of that. And being in that flow state, right, is is feminine, but then the structure is is masculine, and I think, like, that's kinda the beauty of this work is it is that that training of these different energies and the awareness building of these different energies and leaning into all sorts of situations both, you know, sexual and non sexual Mhmm. Right? And and understanding what's needed in the moment.

Well, so if we go back then to the very beginning of our conversation, where do we start? We start with really paying attention to our own life experience with this framework. We start to look at when do I feel like I'm in my masculine or my feminine? When do I feel like I'm in my yang or my yin? Whatever words and you start to your own personal experience of, oh, when I'm cooking, where do I think I am and how does it feel?

And when I'm paying the bills, where do I think I am and how does it feel when I'm relating to this person? You know, and we just that inquiry over and over and over again. Where do I think I am and how does it feel? And then once you start to get a little bit of a sense of it within yourself, I think people will start to then start to sense it in other people. And the more that I've worked with it, the more I have sensed that too.

And then the invitation is start to play. Because if your intention is to to serve whatever situation you're in, to serve the people with whom you share that situation, to create balance or, facilitate ease in ways that can be meaningful, then even if you misfire a little bit, it's okay. And I've had that. Especially in the beginning, you don't always get it right. But the truth is I got it right more often than I didn't and you start then you're just like, oh, right.

I can start to choose. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna soften into my feminine here a little bit because this conversation that's happening in front of me that I'm a part of, feels a little heavy on the masculine. And then start to watch what happens. Same idea. Oh, there's like the story I told earlier.

Oh, we were all in our feminine. We were all being very accommodating, very go with the flow and someone needed to come in to create a little bit more structure. And when that was introduced, solutions came and ease came.

Because that's what was needed in the moment. It was like we've got something that we have to accomplish and it's not being accomplished right now. So we're going to bring we're gonna introduce this a little bit for in service to the outcome. Right. So look for it in yourself,

make it a practice. The more you look for it in yourself, the more you will start to observe it in others. Try to notice it as often as you can remember because it's happening everywhere. It's happening everywhere all the time. So it's not you don't have to look very far to find that opportunity.

And then start to become aware of situations into which you can try to make some choices. Right? So do I want to bring a little bit more directionality into this conversation? Do I want to bring a little bit more space and silence into this conversation? Do I want to bring a little bit more emotional awareness and heart into this conversation?

And notice what happens when you do. Be open to the idea that maybe in the beginning you don't always do it very skillfully. So you gotta be gentle with yourself, but start to notice and I suspect you'll see the power. And, you know, so we keep going back to this book. You can change your life by becoming conscious about how you engage in your life.

And then one aspect where we could apply these teachings or these ideas would be sexual interaction. But that is one of many. We can apply them everywhere. Work, creation, family, friendships.

Yeah. On the topic of conversation and and how, you know, there are certain moments that, like, maybe you wanna be more expressive or maybe you, want to hold space for somebody. Something that's been really valuable to me is that, like, when I I tend to be in my masculine when I'm working and talking with people. I'm, like, I'm the space holder. Right?

I'm the person that's, like, like, I can hold it. If you want to come to me and you just wanna talk, I can usually hold it.

I've noticed that about you. Yeah.

What I have to do though is that, like, I also sometimes need to just let it out. And I have to specifically ask people and say, like, can you hold space for me? And I have to, like, invite them to be, like, here you go. Here's the here's the masculine energy baton. I'm gonna pass this over to you because I just need to flow.

What I'm saying may or may not be true, but it's gonna be true in this moment. I'm gonna have a bunch of feelings and a bunch of things just flow through me right now. Mhmm. And I just need you to sit there and listen. Right?

And so, like, that has also been helpful and useful if I transition now sexually, that like, sometimes I just want to let go. Like, I want to be fully expressive in my feminine, let's call it, or in my primal, which means that I need a partner who can sit there and hold space, that can witness me, that can allow me to, like, go all out and not be a space holder, not be a container. And then there have been, other moments where I've been the the space holder. So, to get explicit, can we get explicit here?

I mean, I think I think we can. Is is there a rating on these podcast? Okay.

So within, queer sex, gay sex specifically, topping and bottoming. Like, who is going to be, the person who is being penetrated, who's penetrating, like, who's, like, which, what's happening here, especially if we're talking anal, right? Like, there have been times where if I've been the anal bottom, I have actually been in my masculine because I am holding space. I am actually allowing somebody the, the time to be witnessed in their full expression.

Mhmm.

And to, penetrate me in a very primal way. Right? That they are allowed to really flow and they don't have to worry about, like, being in their masculine even though they are quote unquote in a masculine role being the top. And I think that's where like my brain starts to break a little bit with these terms and especially within queer and queer sex that it it, you know, it it is very situational and it's dependent, and we can ebb and flow between them.

Absolutely. And I think we can have another continued conversation about this because, I know you're familiar with DOM sub dynamics. And there is absolutely the idea of, a DOM bottom

Mhmm.

And a subtop. Mhmm.

I

think this can get confusing, which is maybe why we want another episode about it because I think it is less typical with our straight cisgendered brothers and sisters. Right? But in our community, that can absolutely happen. So I think oftentimes, like, well, if you are the receptive physical partner, then you're then you're naturally the the in the feminine. You're holding the feminine pole in that moment.

And you and I both know that that isn't always true.

There have been times where, like, you know, as the, the top in the position where, like, I've been holding space where the bottom has been riding me. Right? And in that case, I'm witnessing this person to allow them into their experience. Right? So, like, they are then, you know, being penetrated receptive while also being in that

Flowing in the container you've created. Yeah. Right. In which case, that would be an example of them sort of holding the feminine pole, like, from a physical place and from an energetic place. This is what's ex like, exciting about queer experience in men's work spaces because we we have a dynamic that we need to wrap our head around.

It's funny, before I was familiar with these, with these terms, this idea, I had this theory and by the way to the listeners, there's nothing scientific about what I'm about to say. I just I grouped bottoms into 2 groups, 2 slices. I think maybe I've told you this already. Right? So there is the stuff in your butt bottom

and then

there was the energy bottom. And the stuff in your butt bottom was and I knew some people in my life. They were like, I just like stuff in my butt. I want stuff in my butt.

Physically, it feels very good to have stuff in my butt.

And I worked with a with an artistic director who was like, I can't even masturbate if there's not something in my butt, which is not which is not an experience that I could relate to. And then there was the energy bottom which was it was all about the moment and the people coming together and, like, the dynamic. Well, maybe now I would have said that energy bottom is the person sensing into the the energetic dynamic at any one given point and then deciding, well, which poll am I gonna hold and which role am I gonna take? And, that is very exciting, I think, and fodder for a deeper conversation. But I think that the understanding of these ideas and starting to look for them in the world, whether you call them masculine or feminine, whether you call them yang or yin or sun and moon, once you start to pay attention to it, you start to see it unfolding all the time and then it becomes a symphony into which you can be a player, you can be a participant, and you can start to work towards the fullness and betterment of, like, whatever situation that you're in.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for bringing us back to this these concepts and for facilitating this conversation because I think you and I have both expressed how it can be tricky to understand, how it can be maybe even trickier for queer people to apply to their own life, and how it can be beneficial to start this process, in service to each of our own beings and then all the beings with whom we share our life.

Absolutely. It's it's a really it's a fascinating topic, And it's one that, like, I spent the first first 35 years of my life thinking that all of these terms were synonyms, right? Like like male, female, masculine, feminine, femininity, masculinity. I was like, oh, if I'm writing an essay, I could just interchange all this. Right?

Like and having these examples and being able to break it down in human and nonhuman terms because also English is not a gendered language. So we don't have a lot of ways in which we've expressed how different things in our world can have qualities and characteristics that we would identify as either masculine or feminine, like our example of the riverbank in the in the the water. Mhmm. Right? And so all of this is just really helpful to to start to dissect and bring folks along on this journey so that they can start to see how these concepts can help them to explore their own, lives and how they exist on the spectrum in different aspects of their lives.

Mhmm. That it's not rigid. That it's not like you are this way and you can't be any other way. It's there's there's flow there. There's there's, you know, the ability and the the the right to find your authenticity and your authentic expression in so many different parts of your life.

And sometimes it's going to be more masculine, and sometimes it's going to be more feminine, and that's okay.

Yeah. It's okay. It's needed. It is wanted. It is desired, and it is of service.

So thank you so much for this conversation.

Yeah. This has been a good one. We covered a lot of ground today. We, you know, we introduced the concepts of masculine and feminine energies. We start to do a little deeper dive, like, where we find them in our lives and in, our experiences and talked about some ways in which we can start to, bring awareness to them and start to find situations in our lives where things can get turned up and down and playful, and then wrapped it up with a little bit of queer exploration and queer perspective.

So, this was a a great topic, and I look forward to another, robust conversation with you again. Do you feel complete tonight?

I do. I feel very complete. So in this moment, let's all take a deep inhale and a gentle exhale. And as we complete this conversation, I wish you and I and all the listeners safety, connection, brotherhood, authenticity, vulnerability, and expression. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken.