Embodying Polarity: Mackenzie on Masculine & Feminine Energies Through Drag

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to The Circle. Today, we're joined by Mackenzie, a drag entertainer and philanthropist who's raised over half a $1,000,000 for local charities here in Provincetown. Mackenzie is a director, writer, producer, and proud Capricorn sharing queer neon joy in a dark world. In this episode, we'll explore how Mackenzie's drag journey helped them navigate masculine and feminine energies revealing new facets of identity and self expression.

Tim, Mackenzie, are you ready to go all in on this neon love?

You better believe it, baby.

I am.

Let's do it. Alright. Let's go. Mackenzie, you've channeled your drag into everything from fundraising to creative performances. Could you start by sharing what first drew you to drag and give us a quick snapshot of of who you are and what you do?

You got it. Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be here at the circle with you 2. I found drag, probably at the earliest age possible. I think being a child of of the late eighties, I was born in 88 in, Alaska.

So we didn't have a lot as far as entertainment goes. But I will never forget sneaking out of bed one night when my parents were watching a movie, and that movie happened to be missus Doubtfire, everyone's favorite nanny growing up. And that was really my first understanding, even before I think I knew what was happening as far as this expression of drag. I saw this insanely over the top woman who was there to care and nurture for people that she loved, and she did it in such a funny and just personalized way that had me rolling on the floor even though I wasn't supposed to be watching this at all from the top of my little, staircase. But, it it definitely left an impact.

And as I, you know, as life continued on, I was more familiar with Tootsie. And I think there was an episode of Full House where Danny Tanner and uncle Jesse end up in drag at some point. So it was very natural for me to see these these characters and these this portrayal of drag, even though it was a very certain understanding of drag at the time. But it was always so comedic to me, and it it really gave me a lot of joy to see. And I I wondered why there wasn't more of it in the world.

And then it wasn't until I went away to college, at the Boston Conservatory, Goboca, where it was for musical theater. So, of course, stepping stones, you you know there's gonna be some drag elements

into that. But, I

really found drag when I I was asked one of the first days, by a professor what we wanted to do with our our theater education. And I said I wanted to break gender norms. It was just something that as as a child, I I was so ready to do. And she told me that I could never do that because I was too husky. And that I was always a kid that if you told me to not touch the stove, well, let's find out why.

And this really broke open sort of anything that was holding me back as far as discovering what that gender expression was because I was so ready to fucking prove this bitch wrong, And I have done just that. 17 years later, I have the most fabulous neon career. I get to spread queer joy all over the country and hopefully the world someday. But I'm so content being right here right now with my amazing queer community and just making people happy.

Can you, give me a little insight into how you might describe a gender norm? How it how it occurred to you and what what made you want to break it? Just in case listeners aren't entirely clear.

Absolutely. So I I grew up in Alaska and I I grew up in a very binary family. I had mom who was sort of the stay at home mom. I'm a triplet, so there were 2 more of me. So my mom was there to take care of the litter.

We grew up in Alaska, and my dad was definitely the the awesome breadwinner of the family. He went out and he worked, as hard as he could. I believe he owned his own, heating duct company at the time, and he he was a provider. He was someone I mean, we very much lived off the land. We were hunters, and so he would go out there for his weeks long of of gathering our meat for the winter.

And we were we were at home most of the time with mom, and I had 2 very heterosexual brothers, but they were identical. I was fraternal. So even down to a cellular level, I was always kind of my own being. I always did my own thing. But we definitely had a very binary understanding of the the the mom was at home taking care of the family and the dad was out being a rough, tough, just Alaskan doing his thing.

And I'm very lucky. I grew up with 2 very supportive parents. My mom is is just one of the most incredible, just champions of of life. She has such a lust for life, and it was it was one of a a superpower, really, that I I looked at from she was so soft and just found the good in absolutely everything. And then I had my father who, again, it's somebody who's so full of love, but as a queer person who really started to show that they were uninterested in a lot of more of the masculine type things, like the sports that my brothers would be involved with.

And more often than not, it was a majority type situation where it was, like, do you guys wanna swim or play baseball? And usually, it was baseball, baseball. And I was, like, well, I wanna swim. But I got out outnumbered, so we were swimming. And then finally, my my parents did acknowledge that I needed something to stimulate me a little bit better as far as my interest.

So they didn't really loop us together after too long. But, yeah, it's for me, I I definitely grew up understanding a very binary world. I mean, the the men took care of of the family. The the woman stayed home to make sure that everything was beautiful and and lovely and and tied with a beautiful little bow. And I really valued both of those understandings and perspective of life.

But I also, like I said, I was one of those kids that the minute I was told that I had to be in this box or I had to express myself in a certain way, especially when those little things as a as a queer kid, like, you would want, like, the pink necklace when my brothers wanted court guns, and it was usually kind of shunned away of, like, well, no. That's not that's not what you're gonna get. Like, what do you well, I I always wanted an aerial Barbie when I was 3, and I was never gonna get an aerial Barbie. But thanks to my aunts, I got an aerial puzzle. So it was it was always something that I pushed the boundary with in just my understand because I never understood why why I wasn't allowed to have these things when it was something that brought me joy, and why wouldn't you ever want your child to to feel that joy and feel something that they love and wanna take care of.

But I I pushed through because I was taught that that was just kind of how it was. But it was it was something that as I really started to come into my own as a queer person and and really understand more of what that vocabulary was that I was prepared to push the boundaries and little did I know I was going to for the rest of my life and career. I don't know if that answers your question.

It absolutely does. I'm actually gonna follow-up question though is, like, was there at that time when you I'm I'm thinking now when you were speaking to your professor and, like, what it is you want to do, a particular kind of expression that you were, like, I want to be able to express in this way or with this, you know, medium, and and if so, why?

Great question. I think will you repeat that back for me one more time?

Yeah. So the question is really, you said you want to break gender norms. Mhmm. And I'm and, like, I'm wondering if that moment in your life, was there a particular kind of expression that you wanted to to be giving or bringing? And I'll give you some you know, I was a I was a professional dancer, and I had been given the the education that, like, men are not supposed to do that.

That's not like a thing that boys do or men do it. You know? And there was a hunger for me to be like, but I feel this in my soul. Right. And I really want, like, to be doing this.

And so that was like it propelled me into taking risks I might have otherwise not taken because I'm like, the only way I'm gonna get to dance is if I kind of go against the guidance of my parents or or or, you know, break some of the, like, family structure. Yeah. And so it's a sort of along those lines of, like, did you have a thing that was like, I just have to get this into the world? Or was it different than that?

I think I mean, as I as I was thinking about this question when you were expanding on it further, something that popped into my head was, this image of Jessica Rabbit when I was young. And my brothers just kind of had that cartoon, like, heart in their eyes of, like, this They

they were the wolves

in the audience.

My god.

Awooga. Like

Yeah. Truly, this Awooga moment. And I remember just comprehending what it is that they they were trying to express, and I didn't get it. I didn't get it at all. And then, you know, years later, I would figure out, it's like, oh, I didn't wanna fuck her.

I wanted to be her. And so sort of this beauty there there was something always so magnetizing for me about a strong, fucking, badass bitch who stands on her business, doesn't take shit from anyone. And it was really this sort of opportunity for me to say, like, oh, that is something that I I would like to explore more of. I would like to see. Can I be that badass bitch that owns this shit fucking shit?

Like, are we allowed to swear on this, by the way?

That's okay. Great. Yes.

But it's, yeah. For for me, there was totally this moment of I wanted to express myself in a very strong, sexy, but not weak in by any means, and just a powerful way that I knew I already had with the body that I have. I'm a 6 one, 215 pound Alaskan Dutch guy.

Mhmm.

And but there was something so empowering within myself to be able to then put on that stocking or that pair of heels, especially for the first time. Because there was so much shame that was sort of built up over time saying that, like, I couldn't do that. I wasn't allowed to feel this way. I wasn't allowed to express myself in any sort of feminine kind of expression, and it it became my biggest superpower. Not to go back to your guest with Phil Jimenez last week, but it was it truly felt like this sort of armor that you could put on, and it just accentuated every ounce of my confidence.

Any sort of anxiety I had about how I presented myself was obliterated, and I needed more. And while I've dabbled in a lot of drugs in my life, that was my favorite.

Well, I will say this 1st and foremost, we can always talk about superheroes if you want. Great. And there there are a lot of traditions that talk about queer people as having a capacity. You know? Oftentimes it would be the queer person who would become, like, the shaman or the or the sort of spiritual leader of a tribe because of this, capacity.

I think the word in Hawaiian is, maho, but I can double check, like which, like, described a kind of person that had this sort of ability to experience both the masculine and feminine kind of blend and flow through them. And I have often in my own life thought it actually does feel like a superpower of a kind. Like, the an ability to relate and understand and express in ways, that it felt like the other boys that I was surrounded by, like, couldn't or weren't, you know, doing.

Yeah. What I'm interested in is this, activation that happened, the transformative nature of, like, putting on the stockings and the heels for the first time and this, superhero that came out of you that was sexy and powerful and how that may contrast from your, the story you told about your mother. Your mother sounds nurturing and soft. And so I'm interested now in the duality of of, like, femininity, masculinity, and the blend that can happen in drag, you know. And so do you wanna unpack that a

little bit? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, definitely, my mom is just fucking regal as she is. I love you mom so so much.

She also there was a a series of pictures. My family was definitely somebody who kept just crates of photos. And even photos from when my my parents were teenagers and I loved going through them and just imagining, like, well, my parents were kids. And for as soft and gentle and just just such a mega babe that my mom is, I came across some modeling photos of hers. And she was a smokeshow.

Okay.

So, like, this beautiful, just

Come on, mama Miller.

Just my hero in life was this stone poop fox. And she like, if I had had that conversation with her, and even to this day, she's so hard on herself. She's like, oh, I don't wanna FaceTime because I just feel horrible about and it's like, you are g like, the most beautiful thing, not only inside and out, but, like, she she had that sort of just that fire, even when she was a teenager and and and beyond that, she she was so fucking beautiful and had no idea. But she I definitely think that she probably and forgive me if I'm totally wrong, mom, but I she probably played it down a lot. I think she was one of those people that had no idea actually, like, how stunning she was.

But, I mean, she landed a beautiful husband and had 3 beautiful children, so she's doing well.

Do you think there might be a pressure there? Do you think that, like, to be a certain kind of woman, you had to treat your level of sexiness or attractiveness in a particular way? And if and if I and I don't know the answer, but I'm just curious, like, if a woman were to, like, fully embrace her sexiness, like, would that bring risk of, you know, perception that she might not want? I

I I think that's that's a a great question. I will never pretend to understand the the female experience. I definitely, as a drag artist, know that I I am not a woman, and I can't ever speak truly to it. I do I just want everybody, no matter who and how they identify, to feel that power of unlocking your inner just beast. Whether I mean, I think that no matter how it it is dressed or how you you express that, I think that there is such an inherently beautiful and sexy power that comes with knowing your worth.

And

if you can throw a little sparkle on that and dress it up and just accentuate a little bit more, my god.

Well, it sounds like authenticity. That's what, you know.

Beautiful authenticity with glitter and sparkle.

So much. Like,

it really is.

I'm banned from a few spaces for all of those things.

So I want to go back a little bit and start to create a kind of shared understanding of what we might be meaning by masculine and feminine. Absolutely. Because, I wanna go back to also the the duality of like the soft and nurturing and strong sexy.

Mhmm.

Right? And like how sometimes we look at like masculine things as like the strong things and feminine as like the softer things. So, when I hear about like your drag persona kind of like blending these things Yes. I start to get this mix this mix of of energies. And so, Tim, I wonder if you can just, take us to a little educational moment and we can have a conversation about what it is we are talking about when we talk about masculine and feminine energies.

Yeah. So in in the men's workspace and the spiritual personal growth spaces that I've been in, we think of these in, like, polarity. And so when I was first introduced to it, the words masculine and feminine were tricky for me, because as a young queer boy, feminine was like a dangerous thing. Mhmm. You know, like, and so I resonated because I was already an acupuncturist at the time with this idea of yin and yang.

But same idea. Right? So, like, the idea of, like, light and dark. Right? And then on that polarity, like, all these different shades that kinda existed within them.

Hot and cold. Right? Hard and soft. You know, all the you know. And that's why, like, the Chinese medicine, Tai Chi, it's sort of always blending into each other because there's always both.

Mhmm. In the in the Chinese medicine system as I understood it, and one of my teachers told me, if you're a 100% yang or a 100% yin, then you're dead. Because because life required that there always was some in the other. That's why in the Tai Chi, there's the dots. Yeah.

Because there's always yin and yang, and there's always yang and yin. That is I had

never thought about it.

Yeah. And so and so when we when we speak about masculine feminine, it's like on this on this, like, sort of polarity. Mhmm. So there's no from these perspectives, like, not good or bad. It's just sort of like, oh, well, if it's light and then if it's dark Mhmm.

And then all the things that can exist in between those two things.

Right? You kinda have your definite, like, it is and it is, but then there's that spectrum in between of where

exactly does everything lie.

So I'm now curious, Mackenzie, like, how do you relate to these concepts as, you know, they relate to your artistry?

I acknowledge that they're there, and then I blow it out of the water. I, I definitely I mean, I I am a very healthy balance. You know, I kinda feel like I fluctuate. There are definite times where there is more masculine energy or then there's more feminine energy. But, to kind of go back to a little bit more with with whom I am as a as a drag artist and the way that I express myself.

If you've seen me before, you'll find, especially in more of my adult, shows, that more often than not, I'll start the show either butt naked or very closely too. You have dressed me in so many of those beautiful outfits. But I've I've learned through especially discovering who I am as a drag artist and, that connecting with my body, I know that I'm never going to be female. I'm no I'm not going for that hourglass shape like the Jessica Rabbit that I always wanted to be. But I embrace the the beauty that is my male body, and it wasn't always like that.

I definitely before I I had a vocabulary for more of the the binary and the non binary and and just gender expression in general, I understood gay, straight, bi, and trans. And so there was a time where I I'm I'll be completely transparent that there was a black market hormone situation. I thought I was who I knew through my drag, like, being trans fit, and it felt powerful, and I wanted to exist there forever. But over the years when, I mean, I had amazing support through that, I kinda had a second coming out to my family, but I really started to understand more of who I was on that gender spectrum whether it was, you know, masculine, feminine, female, male, that I didn't have to be an extreme one or the other. As you kind of said, if you're a 100% of 1 or the other, I don't wanna say you'll die, but, I mean, there was definitely so much more to life that I needed to experience, whether it was masculine or feminine.

And it's for me, to just kind of get it out of the clear clear the air when when it comes to a Mackenzie show, you're gonna see a pretty much naked person because then we build on it from there. You see a what I believe is a very beautiful male body.

Mhmm.

And it's then we then we add to it. We start to to enhance and put on the wigs and put and it but it it starts at this very clean sort of canvas that I think obliterates any sort of quip. Well, is that a man? Is that a woman? Like, are they trying to go for that perfect deluded?

It's like, no. This this is what I have to work. This is my temple. This is something that I've existed 36 years with on this planet. Kept it alive, watered it pretty darn well, and it's I I just and drag helped me get there.

This was I was never somebody who would be naked in a room full of people who then also paid money to see this. And it's, like, holy like, what an empowering moment to realize that your pure, genuine, just love for the body that you have is a superpower. And it then I mean, you the minute you see it all aside from a very well placed flower or or anything when it comes to a Mackenzie show, just kind of sets everybody on the same same platform, the the same level that it's like, this is it. This is what you're gonna see. Now, you can pay attention to the art.

Mhmm. And then, by then, I mean, we start to explore all sorts of masculine and feminine. I mean, I love pulling out both parts. I love being both the masculine cum bubble. Bubble.

Winters are long. Yeah. But, yeah, a very feminine just bubblegum pop voice that that honestly, I I was was like, well, who's gonna play the other part? And I was like, well, what if you just fucking play both? Then you don't have to pay anybody, and you can just have a lot of fun with it.

And it really is it's become one of my favorite ways of expressing myself. It's just leaning into both elements of the masculine and feminine.

You had

a beautiful performance last Friday night that you did play both roles of a of a love situation.

One of

my favorites. It was heartbreaking to see. It was it was a beautiful performance.

Thank you.

And so, I'm curious like when you go back to that professor that basically said, you can't do it. You're too butch.

Mhmm.

Right? Like, was the Mackenzie we see today, like, was that you then? Definitely not. Definitely not. Definitely not.

So did

you feel a pressure of like how you should do drag back then?

Oh, so much. And that that was actually really the first year that when I had that interaction with that professor, that had to be September. I mean, I've been out of school for a long time. That's when we started school. Right?

September? Alright. So it was definitely one of the first weeks of of September or yeah. And, god, that was 2,007.

7. Yeah.

Yeah. So, of course, in the moment, like, you know, I I'm never someone who likes to push back or or argue. I love very comfortable situations until 2025. We're fucking shit up. But, let's go.

But, yeah, I I I kind of was a doormat. If you told me something, it was, oh, I'm so sorry that I ever would consider upsetting the the the way things are supposed to be. You're right. I'll sit down and shut up. And I think in that moment, I did because, I mean, as short as this professor was, she was very intimidating.

And I just didn't I kinda wanted eyes to be off me. It was already kind of an uncomfortable I had the bravery to even say that, and I had a few things that was, like, oh, I wanna originate a role on Broadway. But I really wanted to push something as far as gender. So the minute that was shut down, I kind of definitely had this, like, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. For forgive me for ever dreaming of something like that. But very much in the same wonderful just situation of circumstances. I was then asked to be a part of the Broadway Cares Equity Fights Aid Fundraiser drag show that the Boston Conservatory holds every year. And freshman, I believe I don't know what the situation is now, but freshman kind of were never really a part of it.

I believe it was more of, like, the older classes, but I was hell bent on getting into the just to prove myself, like, even if I wasn't in anything, like, just throw me in the background in a dress, and I will be happy. And it didn't help that there was a very cute boy that I also just really wanted to be around. So that was kind of my, like, first entry into being, like, this is still a program within the school. Like, this teacher can't really, like, touch me on that one. And then it was all, I guess, uphill after that because I I'd never known such a joy than putting on that pair of ludukas and that little dress that really didn't fit me at the time.

And I think we did, all I do is dream of you the whole night. I don't even know what show that's from. But I remember nailing the choreography in our first show so well and being so proud of myself. And I had this, like, really bad sort of 19 nineties wig. I mean, it was, like, very Tara Reid from, like, American Pie.

And I thought I was such hot shit, and you couldn't tell me anything. And even I mean, that that was the first time that I really had kind of pushed back against being told that it wasn't gonna be something that I was allowed to express or or or achieve. And that was sort of, like, that just the definitive moment where that the ice began to crack and that sort of indestructible ability to then explore this world that I was told I really couldn't became an absolute possibility. And here I am 17 years later.

So there's a there's a, a fundraiser and I think that they benefit Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS now, called Broadway Backwards. Have you have you heard of this?

I have heard of Broadway Backwards.

So I actually did this. No way. I did this, you know, towards the end of my career, I did it. And it it is the the idea behind it is that, you take songs typically done by women and give them to men Yes.

And then

men give them to women. And so I was fortunate enough to do, There's Gotta Be Something Better Than This from Sweet Charity. Right? But I I bring it up because there was this really fun energy of being able to, like, perform a song that you would otherwise as a Broadway performer, I was never gonna do that. Never

get the opportunity.

It was just not gonna happen. I mean, I think that might be changing now with, like, performers like Jinkx Monsoon, which A great At the time Jinkx. Yeah. At the time, that was not gonna be possible. Yeah.

And the power that I think that exists in, like, where you get to dip your toe in this. Like, I got to be I got to be sweet Charity. Do you know what I mean?

Like, and It's so fun. In that moment, I mean, where where was your heart and your soul and your mind when you had that opportunity to do something that you were never you were always told couldn't happen? What what what was your state of being?

Okay. My state of being was, like, I'm one of the things that I am at, like, a soul level is a dancer. Yes. And when I think about all of the incredible performers who have played the role of Sweet Charity and, like, the videos you've seen, like, on the rooftop and, like, the dresses and you're Absolutely. You're like, I just like I have chills.

I mean, the thing is we weren't, like, we weren't dressed we weren't dressed as women. We were men, you know. Of course. But I'm just sort of like I was I was like, I'm on the rooftop and I was performing with, 2 really talented performers. They they had the lion's share of the singing, but we were just like, oh, I get to be on that rooftop.

This

is your moment.

I get to do the thing. Like, it was really fun.

Hell, yeah.

It was really fun. And I see Empowering. Like, take a glimpse into this other thing rather than saying like, oh, that's I'm not supposed to do that.

Right.

I would've done it. I wanna I wanna dance America in a dress. I

Let's go. Let's go. Let's do it.

I think that I think that we could yell back choreography. I actually know we can.

Is that your is that your number this Friday?

No. No. Can it be? Can it be? We'll start rehearsing right next week.

We need more rehearsal time. Because I wanna nail it. I wanna be Absolutely. Yeah.

There's, yeah, there's a few definitely, like, Broadway gems that well, let's talk because I I don't wanna touch it until I know it's gonna be fucking cool.

No. But it has to be so good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. That's a totally different We got you. We got you.

We'll put a pin in that.

But I I love it. So hearing the story of, like, your first performance and starting to, like, crack that shell. Right? And it also sounds like it lit a fire in you where it said, like, that first performance may have been a little bit more traditionally feminine.

Mhmm.

Right? Like, it is a little bit more like wig, heel, dress. Uh-huh. Right? The Mackenzie we know today sometimes does that.

Yeah. Sometimes.

Every once

in a while. Right? But, like, most of the time is in a very different expression. Mhmm.

And

so I wanna know a little bit more about from point a to point b and kind of that journey that it's brought us to.

Absolutely. I I mean, when I started drag, believe it or not, there was, I think, we were, like, 6 months after the release of season 1 of Drag Race. There was no, like, YouTube tutorials, like, wigs were not readily available. So there were the empire that it is now was not readily available. And it was so wonderful to try to just really pick the the tools, I guess, that I could collect over time and, you know, there were I was so grateful to to be kind of moving around, like, I had the 4 years in Boston.

I was back and forth in Seattle. I was in New York. I was in Provincetown. And I I'm so grateful. Another thing that my mom taught me was to just be a sponge when it comes to learning.

Don't pretend like you know everything, which I do feel that nothing against our younger queens. But there's a lot of ego that has come from a lot of these younger queens and I want you to be fabulous. And I want you to have that ego. It'll take you a really long way. But also, like, learn.

Humility is also a superpower.

No kidding. No kidding. It's it's it's like a currency, like, kindness and humility. I mean, you you can learn so much by listening to these girls, by picking up tips and tricks. I mean, there were so many things that I I was told much like that college professor that I had, that in my drag experience, especially as a young young booger queen, that I had no idea what I was doing.

I had ideas of what it looked like and how it should be expressed in order to be a successful drag queen, but it kind of fell on that binary idea. It was, like, if you're not gonna tuck and you're not gonna cinch and you're not gonna wear the boobs, it's, like, what what use are you doing? Like, what what why why why drag? But then, as I got to know these girls from all over the country, all different cities, there was always, you know, the very alternative girls. There the girls that the freedom queens that didn't that didn't necessarily adhere to those the norms, I guess, it was of drag, and I I gravitated to them because there was something so honest about them and how they wanted to still convey a beautiful drag essence, but then throw a little grunge in there and throw in something that, like, I found that a lot of the the beauty of Mackenzie the drag queen is that the beauty is in the imperfections.

Like, there's gonna be a lot of moments where that didn't necessarily tie up all the way or that didn't zip up all the way. But, oh, my god, I look so good. And it's gonna come off anyway. So, like, what And

and, honestly, some of the most iconic moments that I remember of your performances are in those imperfections and how you go with the flow Mhmm. Which, as part of men's working, the vernacular that we use here is a very feminine practice of, like, just being able to, like, flow

Mhmm.

With whatever is happening in that moment. So, like, your stage presence, right, like, has that ability. And so do you also have that in your, like, everyday life to, like, you know, be able to, like, you know, take something that you weren't expecting and just kinda, like, go with it?

Yeah. It's I never was that type of person until, honestly, after sobriety, in my life. I was I was a go with the flow person, but it was a reckless go with the flow. It was, like, we're gonna go with the flow, but it's because the drinks are flowing and I can do anything. But, I think once I really got in control of my life and took back my life and was able to live as purely and as wonderfully as I am these days, I think that there kind of has naturally entered a more go with the flow because I feel more secure and more safe in knowing that where we flow and end up to isn't going to hurt me or hurt me.

I feel like you just gave us a really beautiful and I wanna hear from you if you agree, a really beautiful teaching about the masculine and the feminine. Because when you were talking about your sobriety journey, and by the way, thank you for sharing that. Yeah. It sounds like while while you were drinking, what I heard was that there was, sort of a lack of the masculine structure. So there was a lot of flow, but it could be chaotic.

So the image that we use in men's work is the river and the riverbanks. The riverbanks are the structure. It's the masculine. The water is the feminine, and they but they are both necessary in order to have the river. It sounds like in your sobriety journey, then you were able to use that clarity to create the structure into which you could flow without chaos.

That's what I feel like I'm hearing, and it feels like you just so thank you for being, like, a a men's work guru right now. I mean, come on. I mean, it it just it was beautifully, example. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you.

And I think the same thing can be said maybe about the the stage performance is creating the structure of, like, okay. I know that this number is 4 minutes, and I have my post.

Mhmm.

I'm gonna start to create the container in which then I can flow into. And so when things happen within that container, you're able to go with the flow.

Go with the flow.

Well, there's this other saying in men's work, and this is what I feel like maybe you exemplify as a performer, the, a tight plan loosely held. So you you walk on and you're like, I I know what it is supposed to be, but I also know that I can then flow in that supposed to be and go with, oh, it's not fully zipped up or it's or it's falling off or you know? And then and there's a It

will fall.

And then there's a beauty in that because then you're like, oh, well then something you could never have planned

Mhmm.

Gets an opportunity to be expressed, truly. Like, how lovely that is.

It feels really genuine and, like, you're really seeing something unique and special. I mean, I'm off like, I don't wanna take away from any sort of professionalism that I there are so many girls that do amazing things because they have this down to a science. Mhmm. But there's such a natural sense of I don't wanna say, like, clownery that comes with drag and myself. Like, I'm never gonna take myself too seriously.

I take myself very seriously when it comes to my art, but that seriousness in that moment is always going to be a joke. It's going to be there's gonna be something funny. There's going to be something and even if it's not, like, with that number on Friday, I I wanted to to convey a heartbreak while still also giving you permission to to look and say, I don't know what I'm looking at, but I feel really connected to this heartbreaking story. There's still elements of I mean, you're I was a Perot clown for God's sake, and I was waiting for my lover to come home from the war and he died. The audacity.

But, you know, there there's element that you I still keep it this beautiful light fluffiness while still trying to maybe tell something that is is heavier or masculine, I guess, in the I mean, does that

There's a little tragedy to it and bringing in that lightness, the humor, the, like, playful seriousness or serious play. Yeah. Right? Like, that it is still a full expression of you and of what you're trying to communicate. And so I think that's a really beautiful element of it is the the unapologetic expression

Mhmm.

That wants to be birthed through you.

Yeah. Yeah. That's sorry. Con continue. Yeah.

That was that was

my thought. Beautifully said.

Mic drop. So on that note on that note, there's a lot of vulnerability, and you've expressed a lot of that vulnerability both from a, like, emotional, like, putting your soul out on stage as well as your body. And so I'm curious, exposing these parts of yourself that others might not expect, how has vulnerability shaped your art and your personal journey?

Oh, my gosh. Great question. I definitely I know I was a very sensitive not was. I'm a very sensitive person. It's just something something that I I do believe I thankfully gained from my mother.

It has given me such an insight and connection with so many wonderful things in the world, and I'm forever grateful for it. But with that, can kind of come the negative that comes with that because oftentimes you're considered weak. And oftentimes, I also think that vulnerability can can be linked to what people believe is weakness as well. But I without vulnerability, I would never be able to tap into this insane imagination that I've been given. I think that for a lot of my life, especially in that binary that we kind of talked about, that being told no or no, you can't wear that, no, you can't have that doll, no.

That any sort of thought there after that, there was a lot of shame that came with wanting to express myself in that way. And, I mean, drag has saved my life because I it's basically my therapy. Anything that I want to be able to convey or tell you a story with, I've I've been able to. But vulnerability has placed such a key part in that because I'm able to tap into things that I've never really experienced per se. I've never had a lover go off to war and never come home, and I've never lived in 19 Paris, like, but I'm so excited to to go there and to to know where my what story it is that I wanna tell, and especially through a sense of vulnerability has always allowed me to be successful in sort of that creation process and really allow myself to to embrace some of that shame that I felt, but also turn it around and literally make it fuel to kick some serious ass.

That was right. That's right.

I think a lot of people think of vulnerability as potentially a weakness, but I think we are learning and discovering now that it is another superpower. Because one of the things about vulnerability is its honesty. You know? Well, I I think I think about this example of, like, the knight getting in the armor, and you'd be like, oh, well, you're gonna be vulnerable in, like, these places. Right?

That's like, an honest awareness of, like, well, then I need to be mindful of these parts of me. It's a really honest thing. And so for me, vulnerability is a superpower and it requires unbelievable bravery.

Yes. And care.

Yeah. Yeah. Because

Invest in it.

Exactly. Because it is I'm gonna show you all of me. And and in that showing is a recognition that, like, part of my humanity is that I am I'm capable of being hurt. Yes. If I if I give you my heart, if I really give you my heart Mhmm.

Then you could hurt me with it. Yes. And then I have 2 options. I can I can pretend that you're not hurting me or I can always keep my heart and never really feel you know? So it's like, oh, that vulnerability is such a power and I think the world is hungry for it.

And, like, I think part of our job, and especially entertainers, is to is to help us, like, understand how it can look

Absolutely.

And what it can do. So thank you, by the way, for bringing it.

Hey. My pleasure. I think too that and I've I'm so lucky to have such an incredible circle of queer artists in my life and and just my queer community that have all expressed in their own journey that a sense of vulnerability welcomes others, especially those that may not be able to express themselves, but just that if let me see. Let me make sure I get all these ideas together and packaged beautifully. But if if I give myself permission to dress in a certain way that otherwise I know that if I leave the house, it's gonna be looked at funny.

Or it it may garner some kind of response and it may not be exactly the most positive response. There are times that I'll even leave Provincetown and and think, oh, I probably shouldn't wear that. Or I and I hate that we exist in that kind of world, but we do. But sometimes, I have to think that it's not just for me. Even though I do everything for me first, that my expression and that vulnerability that I take out into the world gives permission for those that do not and may not have the opportunity to want to or to to to be able to express themselves.

It gives them permission to know that they are seen and that there there are others out there just like them. And I can't I can't even even count on my fingers and toes how many times that just that one bit of of a little bit more expression or color or sequin, go into the mall. Well, just give permission for that that teenager who's closeted, who doesn't doesn't feel safe anywhere. That it's almost like this beacon of I've I've been personally, like, had been handed notes or somebody that just says thank you for being here. And that is something that I I will I I want to be a positive source for anyone out there who who's experiencing their own shame about how they express themselves or being able to be vulnerable or just express their gender identity or or I'm getting so many thoughts in my head right now because I just love this subject so much.

But I want I want everybody to know the safety and feel the safety and confidence that I have worked so hard to achieve because I've tapped into a secret nirvana that I think everybody in life needs to understand because you're gonna be so much happier for it.

Well, you're you're talking about giving permission and I think it is one of the most powerful things that we can do and one of the ways in which we can best serve our queer community. And I I wanna just draw to the men's sharing circle. So now we in Provincetown on Monday nights have a a sharing circle. And it's the space where, we have a topic, but we get each man gets to share from his own life and have the the practice of speaking and being seen and being heard, and then other men are reflecting back. And so much comes purely just from listening to another person share openly about a thing, and then immediately, you have a room full of people who are like, I'm I I thought I felt alone, but I'm actually not.

But you're not. But, like, it felt really lonely. I thought I was the only one, but guess what? I'm not. Yeah.

So every time you're like, oh, you felt sad, you're not alone. You felt powerless? You're not alone. Like, you've had moments of doubt? You're not alone.

And and so that's I feel like you're speaking to that in a really powerful way to be like, oh, you wanna express yourself differently than you than what culture is telling you you can? Mhmm. You're not alone.

You're not alone, baby.

And then, like, and then when you try it, fuck yeah. You know, like like

Once you've dipped that toe in, babe, I'm like, come on. The water is fabulous.

And I think that there's such a power in expressing vulnerability. But, like, your knight example of of saying, like, these are my weaknesses, and this is where you can hurt me. Right? Requires a tremendous amount of trust. Yes.

Trust that the person that you're exposing this vulnerability to and that could be the world. You're exposing to the world your vulnerability which means you can get hurt. But when you when you work on that and you start to express that vulnerability and that true expression of yourself and you learn over time that you're not always gonna get hurt. I think it starts to condition us to say like oh I can be a little bit more comfortable. Absolutely.

With this. I can put on this bracelet. I can put on this pop of color. I can like do a little bit more expression bit by bit by bit because I'm now trusting. I'm learning to trust that when I express myself, when I bring out my vulnerability, that is not always gonna get hurt.

Correct.

And then when you when you do get hurt, if you are surrounded by people and you've been in the practice of vulnerability, you can feel less like a failure. I think initially, especially sometimes in love, you're like, oh, I gave someone my heart. I got hurt. I I failed. I did something wrong.

And you're like, failed. I did something wrong. And you're like, yeah. Yeah. Never again.

And it's you're totally. And and instead, it's like, well, no. That's like we're all human. So it's and then so now I can bring greater greater empathy and compassion to those who are hurt around me because I'm like, I remember how it felt for me to get hurt. But also, I'm hurt.

I haven't I haven't failed. I'm not I'm not losing or I'm not weak because I'm hurt. I'm just hurt because I'm human.

That's sadly human. That's that's, yeah. I'm to hopefully piggyback off of what you've just mentioned, it's something too that I think a lot of I I I need and almost wanna require everybody in the world to experience drag in one way or another because it is it taps into, like like, we've talked about this vulnerability. But I also feel that people will always fear something they don't understand. Mhmm.

And it's it's why our trans community is under attack. It's why our our our queer community in general is something that is very much under attack. I don't care what anyone says. This next administration is going to be a disaster, for our community. And I pray that every single person that I love in this world is safe and is sound, but it scares me because there is so there is so much hate out there for something that people don't understand.

And now, I'm not saying, like, go be trans for a little while. It's like, just see it, like, you what you what I'm encouraging everybody to do is to not run from it or not be afraid to interact and and talk to these people. There there are so many brilliant incredibly beautiful LGBTQAI plus on every sort of spectrum you can imagine, especially when it comes to the binary or gender or your mind, your brain, anything. It's I encourage every single person out there in this world to get to know have a conversation. It's where that seed can be planted to start to understand a little bit more.

Because there's only we're running out of love in this world, and I hate to see it. But I wanna just encourage everybody to find that beautiful opportunity to to express yourself in a way you never have. Because you might just be sitting on top of a gold mine that literally is your fountain of youth. It's something that can keep you going forever and and I just don't be afraid of things you don't understand. And we'll

and we'll unlock more love.

Yes.

Because I think that when we fear that there's not gonna be enough love and maybe that we have something within us, right, that we're not fully tapped into, that we're not tapped into the security of the world. Mhmm. Right? Or something within ourselves that's preventing us from living our fullest, most authentic self.

Yeah. Feeling like you're not worthy of it.

Correct. And so like like you said, like, if you can just, like, tap into that a little bit, I think the the fountain that you unlock is actually love and the spreading of love and joy and the more that we can interact with it and we can see it. And I credit you as a major inspiration for my own ability to, like, own my authenticity of, like

Thank you.

Seeing that that presence that you have on stage and the expression of yourself and the fullness of your expression has really given me a lot of permission to tap into parts of myself that I didn't realize.

Go baby.

Go. And, like, you start to activate and you start to wake it up and you start to bring it online. And, like, what pours out of you is love and light. And then you see how that can ripple out to others. And you can start to see how, like, just by encouraging a little bit of color, a little bit of exploration can unlock a little bit in them, and then they can unlock a little bit of themselves.

So Absolutely. You know, I think just spreading that that love and light, you know, I wanna thank you.

Absolutely. Thank you.

And it's something that I think that if we can, allow ourselves and to all of our listeners, allow themselves to familiarize themselves, not like not like you said, not they don't not everyone has to do drag, but can you bring curiosity into it to to start to, you know, tap into your empathy to relate to somebody, right, and to start to, like, maybe experience something that you didn't experience before.

Amen. Yeah. And if anybody needs any drag, please let me know. I'd be more than happy to loan out the 1,000 of pounds I have of that in my house.

Your closet is pretty impressive.

Thank you. Still maintained too. It's not it's not a complete disaster.

Alright. How are we feeling? Is there any topic that you'd like to explore, Tim?

I just wanna wrap up with what you were talking about earlier in this, like, what's gonna happen to our community in this in this upcoming administration. It really feels like the hate is from fear. So I think it's so important for all of us to continue to express, continue to show up, so that the more people see, the more people they experience, the less I think they'll hate because the the more they'll know there's nothing to fear. There's nothing to fear. What's interesting about like, I made this joke with some of my, yoga students where I'm like, sometimes they paint this picture of of, like, queer people.

And I'm like, the picture they're painting sounds like way more intricate and interesting than we are. Like, I'm like, oh, I go to work. I go to the grocery store. Like like, it makes it to, like, oh, I'm like under the bridge, like, with my pitchfork, like, doing all these things. I'm like, no.

I'm I'm like, I'm paying my bills Yeah. Or or not. Just

like all

of you. Yeah. Mhmm. I go into the grocery store and, like, and we, you know, we just want life's, lives of purpose, and relationships that that matter and, you know, so we have to show that. And and then to be able to show it in a way that, like, makes people laugh and cry Yeah.

And sing along and dance, this is the power of entertainment. This is why theater is a kind of magic Truly is. In my my experience.

Absolutely. I wouldn't trade this career for anything in the world. It is definitely it's my favorite thing I've ever done, and I've done a lot of things on this planet. But, yeah, it is it's why I'm here, and it's what I'm gonna keep doing. And that's bringing joy to and love to people all over the world.

I love it so much. Beautiful. Thanks. Well, Mackenzie, thank you so much for being here with us, spreading your light and positivity and joy, getting to know you a little bit more, getting to know your backstory. We covered some topics of masculine and feminine expression.

We got to talk about authenticity and vulnerability and just tapping into the the truest parts of ourselves and what that can do, to help transform the world. So I've appreciated this so much. If you could leave our audience with anything, what would it be?

Anything. Pay your taxes.

Yeah.

I would also say, give yourself permission to get uncomfortable. But the minute you don't limit yourself, you reach the best euphoria you could ever understand. So go out there and just be your best authentic self. Push the envelope, baby. Your existence is a revolution.

Beautiful. Alright, Tim. How are you feeling?

I feel complete.

Will you take us out?

I will. Let's close our eyes. Take a deep inhale through the nose. Gentle exhale through the mouth. And just with deep appreciation and gratitude for this circle, for any insights that may have come for the laughter, the learning, the exploration, that we open this container.

It is open, but not broken. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Thank you so much for joining us here in the circle.

If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queermensembodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken. Uh-huh.