The Complexity of Gratitude: Moving Beyond Obligations and Performative Thank Yous

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Baumier. Welcome back to the circle. Today, we're diving into the practice and complexity of gratitude. Gratitude Tim, are Tim, are you ready to go all in on gratitude?

Let's do it. Alright.

So when I think about gratitude, I think back to elementary school and having to write out 5 things I was grateful for on a little turkey drawing that I made by tracing my hand. Right? And so, like, I'm grateful for my parents, my dog, my house, but I don't think that back then I ever fully connected to what it meant to truly be grateful for something. And even today, I struggle, to bring forth that full feeling of gratitude. But I know there are lots of benefits.

So I'm curious. What do you think about gratitude and why do you think it's important for us to talk about in the context of men's work?

I think that gratitude is a powerful practice that we can use to influence how we live and how we feel as we're living. But I wanna go back and ask you, the turkey, you know, what what did you learn or what did they tell you about gratitude? And before you answer, I would say my initial understanding of gratitude was this almost obligatory. There are things for which you should be grateful. And so here's an opportunity to outwardly demonstrate that you're grateful for them.

And I, I kind of want to already jump in and tell a quick story about, you know, when I was a young boy, my uncle, who was a very lovely, thoughtful man, did a lot for me, took me on a car ride with, you know, my cousins and, you know, whatever. But they didn't tell me I was going and I had nothing to go with me. So my cousins had their, like, their, like, Walkmans or whatever, and I was just sort of sitting there by myself. And I had a history of getting very carsick. And at the end of the trip when we got back home, I kind of hopped out of the car.

And I remember my uncle Bill was, like, upset that I wasn't more grateful for the car trip that he had just taken me on. And he was completely unaware of, oh, you put me in this situation. I was with my grandfather who had recently had a stroke, poor circulation. He needed the car to be hot. A hot car exacerbated all of the car sickness that I had.

So I'm just in the back seat feeling really bad the whole time. And then I'm told you're supposed to be grateful for this. Like, why aren't you appreciative of what we're doing? And I'm like, well, you put me in a highly uncomfortable situation and now you're asking me to tell you how happy I am about it. And so that was like an example of I'm not grateful.

I would rather have not gone on that because I was so uncomfortable, but you can't see it. And I so I think the the teaching of gratitude was like, well, from my perspective, you should be, so you should be and tell me. So, now my question to you is, what what did you learn or how were you directed to understand and show your gratitude?

Well, I think on the the theme or moral of that story is that sometimes gratitude can feel like an obligation.

Mhmm.

Right? Like somebody else's expectations on us that it's you should feel grateful for this. In my case, the story that I told about having to write out 5 things that I was grateful for, that was an assignment. Right? So, like, I felt obligated to do it.

I was like, so I had to, like, really, like, think through. And, like, I I do believe I was like, okay. I can get, like, 1 or 2 things done. I think at that time because I've, like, you know, going through a lot of, like, childhood emotional stuff. I think, like, the top of my list was my dog.

I was grateful for my dog and maybe my friends. Right? And I had a really hard time figuring out what else to put on that that little hand turkey. And it, you know, like, I I had a hard time connecting with it. I was like, okay.

What is gratitude? Oh, you're telling me that I'm supposed to be thankful for something, but there's so much in my life right now as an emotional child that, like, I I can't be grateful for. I'm not thank thankful for it. I can't see it because I'm in so much hurt or pain, discomfort, anger, frustration, like, all these things. And, like, I just I couldn't see what I could be grateful for because I was in an an emotional state in that time.

So or I just didn't understand the concepts. Maybe a combination of the 2. Right? And so, when I think too about your your uncle, it's like you should be more grateful for that. Like, gratitude can be weaponized against people and like used in a way that is like, hey, like, you should be grateful for, you know, this that you have or that that I did for you.

Right? And it comes with a lot of baggage and expectations. But I think also in that story, there's that there's a concept that we should unpack a little bit which is like the outward reflection. Right? So, like like, you could have been having an internal experience.

Maybe you were grateful. You were grateful for, like, being on land. Think like, you know, any, like, like, pirate movie or, like, or or castaway movie where there's, like, a rough sea and, like, somebody's like, oh, thank goodness land. Right? Like, grateful to be on land.

So in that moment, you do have some gratitude. It just may not be the gratitude that somebody else was expecting. Right? So, like, you had your own internal gratitude, but the way that you externally express something or didn't externally express something, you know, wasn't what somebody was expecting.

I'm thinking now about my grandmother on my father's side

who Grandma Bish.

Grandma Bish. Yeah. Like like, I adore her. But I'm thinking about the times I would, you know, spend with her, in the summer when I was very young. And, you know, they had a an old house.

So the we walked in through the kitchen, and then there was like a dining room that we would use for like special occasions and like the bedroom and the family room and the upstairs. And, she would make food for us and there was no air conditioning that didn't There were window fans, but no air conditioning. And, they would make food for us. And then we would eat it in the kitchen, like right next to, like, the, like, the stove or oven that they just used. So like fuming heat.

Right. Right. Hot food in the sauna. Hot food in the sauna with no, then maybe the door was open, but it was also summer. So you're like, it doesn't matter.

It's like everything is hot. And so I would sit there and, like, no one was sort of connected to this idea that I'm like a in Chinese medicine, I'm a very fiery person. So I'm like, I'm very hot. So the heat, I'm like, my appetite is gone, like, gone. And I would get yelled at for, like, not eating the food and, like, not appreciating what I've had.

And and I get it. If you're from a generation, you're like, well, there are some people who would do a lot of stuff for the, the, what is in front of me right now. But like, my body is like, I, you know, have no appetite. I'm so overheated that I can't eat. And then I would my dad totally different episode about, like, dads and my dad who this was this weekend and I didn't see him all weekend because I was with my grandparents.

Like, he would come pick us up and we'd get in his car and his car had air conditioning. And within 5 minutes I'd be like, I'm hungry. And he would yell at me to be like, well, you didn't eat your dinner. Cause my grandmother would tell him, you know, and I didn't have the knowledge in that moment to be like, well, I I wasn't hungry and now I am. Yeah.

Like, I didn't want hot food

in Asana.

Right. And I didn't I didn't understand the components that were like making it. Like, I'm like, I don't know why I'm hungry now and I wasn't then, but I am hungry now. And I what's interesting is like, if you had offered me the food my grandmother had offered me in the air conditioned car on the way home, I probably would have eaten it. It wasn't like, I'm too good for this Salisbury steak Mhmm.

Or whatever she was making.

My gosh. I love a Salisbury steak. Like like, let's talk about one of the the the cheapest cuts of meat that, like, my mom is a magician with Salisbury steak. Oh, yeah. Like, I grew up eating that because it was it was so it was so affordable.

Affordable?

Right?

I think probably high protein but also high,

like Whatever. Stringy, chewy. Let's let's not go yeah.

Let's not go deep into, like, all the things it is. Uh-huh. It is. But it can be yummy. And I and I didn't think my grandma's was unyummy.

I was just like, what? I'm in a sauna and I have better circulation than you do because you're at the time, my grandmother was 68 and I was 12 or 10 or whatever, you know.

And already naturally running very hot.

And I I run really hot. Like, I I mean, you know, you've seen, like, I sweat a lot. Mhmm. I sweat more than most people.

Yeah. We come out of a cold plunge in this one sweating.

Get into it, you guys. Sweating is really healthy. I could go there's more to say there.

So there's a couple of things that I I I this brings up for me. One is, again, going back to, like, this shame mentality of, like, how many times has it been said by parents and and and caretakers that it's like, oh, there are there are starving children in this country. Like, you should be eating your food. Like, there's this like shame and weaponization that goes along with, like, you should be grateful for the fact that you have food on your plate. Right?

And, like, how dare you not be grateful and show me that you're grateful by doing the thing that I'm expecting you to do. And that creates a relationship with gratitude that, like, can now feel performative. Oh, I have to be thankful for something that I may not be fully like.

This is the power of men's work. Men's work is in part about understanding where each of us like, we have our individual work. Where do where do I exist on the spectrum? Like, where are my inclinations? Where am I most comfortable?

You know, what are my edges and boundaries, how far can I expand, like, blah, blah, blah? Like all really good work. And then men's work is also now how can I meet someone else who will almost certainly have a different set of boundaries, capacities, capabilities, desires, wants, you know, whatever? They might exist on the spectrum in a different place. And so it's not just about where I am but also where you are and can I relate to you?

And in all of these examples, like the old culture was all about the adults knew the worldview and the children had to fit into it. And so no one was thinking like, oh, is Tim overheated? They're thinking, oh, Tim is ungrateful for the food and not eating the food. And when I look back on it, I'm like, I would have eaten the food if I had had a hunger, but I didn't because I was in the sauna or with my back right next to the stove and oven. If you knew by the way, I have

such I'm picturing it right.

Such fond memories of my grandparents' house, but if you knew how close my chair was to the stove and I think it's also interesting to be like, they put me there. Like, I think the adults knew, like, they sat at a different table. Like, because you're like, they didn't wanna sit next to the stove. You know what I mean? Like Yeah.

And so so, like, this idea of, like, the work being understanding me, but also understanding you and how I can meet you. And so anytime ex, gratitude is met with, you have to be grateful according to my worldview, I think it gets tricky because, well, what if I don't have your worldview? Can we can I can we still share gratitude or experience gratitude together with a mutually respected different worldview? That I think is the work.

Mhmm. Something else, like, as you were saying, like, you had really fond memories of your grandparents and, like, maybe even that that kitchen table. And, like, I think back too, there are a lot of times of, like, in those like, I was even thinking about it with, like, my mom's Salisbury steak. Like, in that moment as an 8 year old, I was like, ugh, gross. I hate this.

I would never have said, I'm thankful for my mom's cooking. But as soon as I started thinking about it today now, I was like, I got a, like, a flood of warmth through my body. And, like, I could feel myself just, like, starting to light up with, like, that memory. And So you didn't like

it in the moment?

No. But, like, now I have positive associations with it.

Why didn't you like it in the moment? Can I ask you?

I think there's a couple reasons. One is that I frequently, as a child, always ate my vegetables first. I was I was like that weird kid that, like, most parents would be like thank goodness like he's eating his vegetables. I love vegetables. I didn't like meat.

Or

I had some sort of aversion to meat. And like my mom would get angry. She would get angry and be like the the most expensive thing on your plate is getting cold. Like, how dare you? Like, I've been working.

Right? Like, I work my fingers to the bone. She worked in a plastics factory so literally was working her fingers to the bone. Right? And being, like, how dare you, like, leave the most expensive thing on your plate of sales for a steak, mind you.

We're not talking to T Bone. Right? But, like, to her that was a lot of money and I didn't have that context to be able to say, like, like, oh, she's put so much love and attention and, you know, all she wants is a little bit of appreciation back in return. She wants me to show me her my gratitude

Right.

In that moment. And so, like, when I think back on it now, I do have gratitude. I have gratitude for that beautiful moment and for I can see and and understand the appreciation that she was trying to show me.

Sure. And

so sometimes gratitude doesn't happen in the moment. It's not immediate. Gratitude isn't always immediate. It can emerge over time. And we can think fondly back to things and recall those memories and experience gratitude now, even though we may not have experienced it then.

I'm gonna think I'm gonna go even farther and say, you just said that we can think fondly back and we might, and I hope we often do, but we could think back not fondly and still find gratitude, which is the story I told in circle 2 nights ago? Yeah. Do

you wanna do you wanna share?

Yeah. I'll share about the, I was talking about gratitude. Oh, it was last night, actually, because we had the sharing circle and we had talked about the men had talked about, the brothers had talked about, a mistrust of performative gratitude. This idea that, like, oh my god, I'm so grateful for, like, all the things and, like, everything's fine. Like the more grateful I am, like the more, you know, spiritual I am or connected or like without pain of, you know, there was a mistrust of it.

And I can relate to that mistrust. I feel like sometimes I'm like, are you really grateful or are you like, is there spiritual bypassing happening on some levels here? And so I shared the story about my brain surgery. It's not actually a brain surgery. My condition was I had superior semicircular canal dehiscence syndrome, which required 2 neurosurgeons to do a process.

And they, they went into my head, drilled into my head, and, repaired a bone, a hole in a bone. They were in my brain cavity, but they were not they were not operating on my brain. And so I say that because, I've learned through experience that when people ask me the question about my scar and, like, you know, what happened, they wanna understand the severity and if I'm okay. So I I use the shorthand of brain surgery. They get it, and then we move on.

But for anyone who really knows, wasn't technically a brain surgery, but it was equally impactful. And I had a tough time. It was like challenging, like for the 4 months leading up to it, like waiting for it and kind of expecting it and, like, preparing for it. And then afterwards, tricky. And then I had postsurgical complications which were extremely tricky.

And I told the story about how, you know, these spiritual ideas of, like, we'll find gratitude. I'm like, well, I don't know if my half of my face is ever gonna work again. It's hard for me to be grateful in this moment about that the experience I'm having right now, how I'm feeling, you know. But as a yogi, I was like, okay. I'm gonna work on this.

So I I'd be like, well, I'm grateful that I can, like, walk to the gym. I'm grateful that I can get on, like, the recumbent bike. I was doing so many things, like, in, like, in service to my healing even though I hated most of them. I hate the recumbent bike. It is not how I wanna work out.

Like, I you I mean, you know this about me. I like a kind of workout, a full body, like, you know, but I just couldn't do any of it. And so later on, luckily, I was very fortunate about 3 months later, the Bell's palsy, like, cranial nerve paralysis subsided and and things were getting back to normal. And then I started working as an acupuncturist and I started working with cancer patients. And I was working with a lot of breast cancer patients.

I think I've mentioned because breast cancer patients are, like, very open to this treatment. And, then I remember thinking, like, why I can't relate to chemo and I can't relate to radiation. I've never had those, but I can relate to feeling powerless and uncertain and all that. And, and I looked back and thought, oh, I'm so grateful for that experience that I had because it's allowing me to meet these patients in a way that I can see is serving them. And so was I grateful for it in the moment?

No. And if I told you I was, I was either trying really hard or lying. And I wanna honor the people who are trying really hard to be like, you're in a shitty place and you're like, I'm so grateful for like the lesson that's coming to be cute. I'm with you. I get it.

I support it. I've always been like in the school of be hopeful, be conscious with where you like place your energy, but also don't deny or pretend away your actual experience. So I'm going to jump even. Sorry, I know you're on the verge of saying something like, so I, you, have you ever listened to or read or watched the secret?

Many years ago.

Got it. So like the law of attraction, like, you know, and the secret came out and people were like, oh, the secret. And I'm gonna like manifest a $1,000,000 check. You know, I'm gonna, you know, And, I believe that the law of attraction is real and can be applied. But I believe that the Cirque the Secret, painted a view of it that didn't kind of encapsulate, like, what it really takes.

Right? And so people are like, I'm going to manifest a like an eagle's feather, you're you know, or a check. And, and I noticed in my patients this reluctance to recognize what it was they were actually going through. And so I started talking to them and saying, you're allowed to be upset. You're allowed to be frustrated.

You're allowed to be uncomfortable and you're allowed to say that you're uncomfortable. I feel like that moment in time, because that book and that idea is not wrong. But it's like, I felt like they didn't feel the they were allowed to say I'm in pain because they thought if I say I'm in pain, then I'm gonna invite more pain. Or if I say that I'm sad, I'm gonna invite more sadness. And I remember telling many of them, you can be honest about your experience and then choose how you proceed from that place.

So if you're going through chemo or if you're going through radiation or a combo of them or any other medical procedure that is really tricky, I believe you can say, this is really hard. I'm really I'm in a lot of pain or I can't sleep or whatever the thing is. I can I can recognize and be truthful about what is happening and then I can choose, well, what am I gonna focus on?

It's validating. Right? Like like it's validating your own emotions. And I think back to to gratitude when people say like, oh, like, you know, going back to like, you know, you should be grateful for, like, you know, maybe half of your face isn't working, but the other half is. So be grateful for your other half of your face.

It it invalidate invalidates your experience.

Thank you so much for that example. Thank you so much for that example. I don't mean to cut you off, but it is so important because I feel like I got a lot of that, and it did not recognize the experience of it at all.

Right. And it's invalidating. Right? Like, by by by basically gaslighting other people, right, into, like, oh, you're having an experience. Well, that experience doesn't matter.

You should be grateful for this. Right? Like

Right.

That's yeah. That's what that's what people are doing to people. And I think, like, you know, validating the cancer patients of, like, you know, I may not know exactly what you're going through, but I have some shared experience and I can relate and exactly what you're feeling right now. I can empathize with you. I can be here in your fear.

I can be here in your uncertainty. Right? And those are moments for me that I can be truly grateful and appreciative of in the moment. Like when I have that moment of like true validation of true connection with somebody, I have an easier time being grateful in that moment. Versus if somebody is telling me something opposite of my current experience, like, I'm gonna have a really hard time, like, bringing forth gratitude and appreciation for something.

Because I'm like, well, like, that's not authentic right now. That's not my truth. Right? So, like, you know, there may be a lot of things that I can be grateful for, but, like, that's not it right now. It may be in the future I may be grateful for, but it's not right now in this present moment.

And so, yeah, there are times where you can try to push your way through it. You talk about the secret, like, manifesting where, like, yeah, it might be uncomfortable. It might be uncomfortable at first to be, like, I am really gonna try to, like, focus all of my attention and and appreciation and everything in in me to, like, on this one specific thing even though I may not believe it. But I've gotta push through it and I've gotta, like, you know, just get more and more comfortable with it. I think of, like, my morning affirmations.

Right? Like, I look in the mirror and I try to tell myself, like, I love you. I love myself. I am lovable. I am sexy.

I am capable. I am worthy of love. Like, all these things. Like, it feels fake as f. I don't know if we're gonna get monetized or penalized at some point.

So I'm just gonna bleep myself out right now. Like, it feels fake as fuck.

Fake as f. Yeah. You guys, fake as f.

Right. You heard it here. However, right, I understand the power of repetition. I understand the power of pushing through an edge. Right?

An edge for me also would be like, okay, I don't feel grateful for this right now. I don't feel grateful that, you know, my mom is serving me another Salisbury steak. But, like, can I push through it? Can I push through my discomfort and my aversion to that and say, you know what? I am grateful.

I am appreciative because I can see through it. So I think there's a balance between, like like, validating an experience. Mhmm. Right? And also pushing ourselves through and to see things from a different perspective.

So in the circles that we did this week, we had this recognition of, like, gratitude in its fullness can exist in reality. And what that meant from the shares that I heard and I'd love to hear your reflection, but what I heard was gratitude can exist and it doesn't have to be like, oh, I'm in gratitude now. So, like, you step into Willy Wonka's, like, chocolate factory and everything is amazing. But, like, real gratitude can be like, well, I can be grateful for this and this and this, and these challenges can still be present for me. And real gratitude can coexist with that and that what I heard from the men sharing was that often tends to feel like a more authentic version of gratitude because it isn't lollipops and, like, balls of cherries.

Although it could be, like, someone might have that experience. I've had that a few times. Everything is fucking amazing. Everything is effing amazing. I'm learning from like, we're self editing.

Everything's effing amazing and I, like, I can just, like, rest in all that. But it has been my experience that typically, it isn't all good. Mhmm. And then you're like, so can I be grateful when I'm also challenged?

Mhmm.

Can I be grateful when I'm uncomfortable? And I believe that there is benefit in I think there's real benefit, especially when we are in discomfort or in challenge to to let gratitude be a part of it. But we have to trust, like, well, then gratitude isn't an experience of bliss, but a practice of recognition and recognition of 1 or a few pieces of a constellation or a, like, a cornucopia of of things happening cornucopia, it's almost Thanksgiving. A landscape of things that are happening simultaneously. And that I think is real real powerful gratitude because if when I am hurting or when I am uncomfortable or uncertain, if I can also remember, I'm so grateful for my body and my health.

I'm so grateful for my friends, my colleagues. I'm so grateful for my opportunities. It creates a balance that I think prevents us from spiraling into despondency.

Right. So if we are going down a downward spiral or falling off of a cliff into despair, gratitude can be a lifeline. It can be that pickaxe that you like, stick into the wall to slow yourself down. It can be. Well But but part of what I think is important and something that I heard you say 2 things is that, like, gratitude does for some have to feel authentic, and you have to be able to trust in that authenticity.

Whether you are giving self gratitude or internal gratitude or expressing external gratitude or gratitude is being given to you. Right? There is a an authenticity that we have to believe. We have to trust it. So go back to, like, my morning affirmations.

Right? In a sense, it is a gratitude practice. I am trying to be grateful for what I see in the mirror. Right? And it's at first, it felt inauthentic.

I didn't trust it. I didn't trust the process. Right? And I didn't trust the words that I was saying because I didn't believe them. Over time, it is becoming a little bit more authentic.

Mhmm. And I'm starting to trust it a little bit more. Right? So I can now give and receive in that mirror because I can trust. I can trust that the gratitude is authentic.

There is a teaching that I received that I think is very impactful because I think it's a I hear what you're saying, and I agree. And I think another aspect of gratitude that we can all kind of do right now. So if anyone's listening, you're like, well, what can I do right now? Be grateful for the things you have that you don't recognize. So this spiritual teaching, this spiritual teaching was this idea of so I'm I I'm gonna pause.

Eric, I'm gonna ask you a question. Do you have a toothache right now?

I do not.

You do not. So did you practice gratitude for healthy pain free teeth today?

Not until this present moment. Exactly.

If you had a toothache, what do you think you would be wanting, desiring, thinking about, and focusing on?

I'd be wanting ease. I'd be wanting freedom of pain.

You would be wanting not a toothache. Right? This was a powerful example that I had heard because I'm like, oh, right. As soon as my tooth hurts, I'll think about it and be you know? So then in that moment, I think, oh, there are probably a bunch of stuff I can be grateful for if I'm looking to practice gratitude that I I only have to think about from a different perspective.

Oh, I'm grateful that I can see. I'm grateful that I can breathe. I'm grateful that my teeth don't hurt. I'm grateful that I can eat. I'm grateful that I can walk, you know, which walking was a big deal for me during my brain surgery.

Like, I'm in the depth of it and I look like a weirdo with, like, a cloth around my head and an eye patch on, but I'm grateful that I can walk on my own volition to the gym and then get on this bike. And I was reluctant to be grateful for that because I'm like, what I wanna do is, like, CrossFit style fitness and looking really sexy, but that but I'm like, I'm gonna practice being grateful that I can do this because some people can't even do this. And I think that helped me. Right. So we can, we can find things for which we can be grateful if we are willing to look.

And that may be the beginning part of it.

Yeah. I agree. So Something that I I heard you say that I'm now having a moment where I wanna connect back to before where we said, like, sometimes, like, caregivers would say, like, oh, you should be grateful for the food on your plate. Do you know how many, like, starving children there are in the world? Right?

And it's that comparison. And I also heard you say comparison in your own gratitude where you're like, I am grateful that I can walk to the gym because there are people that can't even do that. Right? And I think, like, sometimes we we want to avoid comparisons because that can sometimes, like, create judgments. However, in this case, I think it provides helpful context and something to, compare.

It's a comparison. Right? Our current moment to. And be like, you know what? I am grateful.

I am grateful that I do have this opportunity right now to get up, to walk, and go do this exercise. I may not want to. I may, you know, be a little resistant. I may be a little angry about it, but that's all valid right now. Right?

And in this moment, I can at least be grateful that I can do that because not everybody has that opportunity to do that. And I think, like, recognizing that is powerful. And sometimes it does take a a comparison to say, oh, like, not everyone has this. And having that that, you know, presence to say, like, but I do.

Mhmm. I'm thinking about Christopher Reeves, the the actor who played Superman. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And we had this image of him as Superman. He was handsome, and his character could do everything. And then he had, I believe, a horse riding accident He

was paralyzed.

And he was paralyzed from the neck down. Right? And he got a lot of attention. And I think he got a lot of attention because he's like, oh, we had this idea of you and now we see, like, the reality of you and they are wildly different. Right?

But he talked about gratitude after after his accident and like the things he could still do. And I think he became like an influential speaker and still did a lot of stuff. So we have to be we we we can both utilize and be careful with these ideas. One of the reasons we found it so shocking, he wasn't just a celebrity. He was a celebrity playing Superman.

So we kind of, I think, collectively compared, oh, you could fly and you can move buildings and, you know, shoot lasers out of your eyes and now you're like, you know, we had this idea of it. Right? So we have to be mindful about, like, how we compare on that level, but then also comparing like, I'm not better than you if I can walk and you can't walk.

Right. That's it's not a judgment. It's not

a judgment. It's a comparison. But but, like, but I but I can use it as a point of, like because that person in the chair can probably do things I can't do or or or do them better than I can do or have insights that I don't have or whatever. But it isn't it is like a compassionate opportunity for me to be like, well, I'm just gonna focus on what I can do. And I remember I had this instructor at at my acupuncture school.

I don't remember his name, and I wish I did. He was great, and he was our, like, orthopedic assessment instructor. And he had a disability, that I didn't realize until I saw his laptop. But his laptop and his, like, the letters were, like, very, very big. And, but then I realized, like, oh, on some piece of information somewhere that he gave us, it was like, I'm not disabled.

I'm differently abled or something or something like that. I'm I'm getting it wrong. But he was like, this is what I need to do what I can do. And he was also very smart and proficient and like, you know, and it was one of those moments of like, Oh, you're an incredible person. I actually really liked this man.

I thought he taught me a lot of stuff and I'm like, I didn't know you had this challenge, but that challenge is like a you're persevering through it. And B I'm grateful that at this moment I can read my laptop at like a more typical email font size, then you can.

It gives context. It gives perspective. Yeah. Right. Sometimes when we get stuck in our own little world where the, you know, everything is terrible.

I hate everything about myself. Like, you know, all these things. Like, sometimes it does take a quick comparison. It takes context to, like, pull yourself out of that and be like, okay. Life's not so bad.

Right? Like, I can read my laptop. Right? And you can you can use those moments. And, again, it's not a judgment.

It's it's taking that time to realize something about the world, about an experience that you're having, and taking the time to be present with it and say, okay, like, I'm not gonna judge this, but I'm gonna use this as my opportunity to say, I am grateful. I have this ability.

Well, let's talk about the world right now. I think we live in a world with a lot of social media where it is very, very easy, so easy to think about another person and visualize their life as amazing. And a lot of us feed into that. I do too. Like, I I don't I don't take photos of me or selfies of me when I have the flu.

I don't. I mean, like, I take them when I'm, like, doing something I think is interesting or when I think I look sexy or, you know, whatever. We have this, like, image of and so I think it can be really hard then to see a feed full of people. Let's say, you know a 100 people. Let's assume that 90% of them are feeling good and 10 of them have the flu.

So 10 of them are not posting. But 90 of them are, and they're, oh, I'm at the park. I'm at a concert. I'm on a flight in 1st class. I'm, you know, whatever they're doing.

And it can be really easy to fall into, Well, my life is not good comparatively because right now I'm alone and a little sad and I'm cooking rice for myself, but you know, whatever the thing is. I think we live in a world where it can get really easy to be like things aren't good. And I think what you were saying, and I agree with, and we talked about in circle was if you're really connected or feeling deeply, these I'm not good. I, I'm not worthy. I'm alone.

You know, it becomes harder if you focus, it becomes harder to be grateful. You're like, I'm so focused on all the things I'm not that it's hard for me to focus on all the things I have or that I am. And that's the real power of gratitude and the real power of gratitude practice is like, if I'm practicing gratitude every day, is it easier in that moment when I am so dark to be like, even in this moment, I still have this or this or this? I will tell you from personal experience, I think it is. You and I are currently doing our like morning pages, you know, and you mentioned your affirmation practice.

I do a written gratitude practice. I'm committed to writing down every morning 10 things for which I'm grateful. And there are moments when I get to like number 8, I'm like, Oh, what am I grateful for? I'm like, Oh, this is the practice because the truth is I write down 10 every day, but I've never written down oh, here's a good example. I've never written down that I'm grateful for my bike.

Well, I am grateful for my bike. I need my bike. Mhmm. And my bike takes me places and like, and keeps me safe and does a lot of stuff and, like, has weathered pea town winters. Like, I'm grateful for my bike.

I've never written it down. It's one example of, like, how many things am I grateful for that I've never even thought about? If you think about them, you're like, I'm actually if you're watching the video, like, I'll I I like I like my bike.

And it's Squeaky brakes and all.

Oh my god. Yeah. I love how all of my friends tell me how squeaky my brakes are. I've taken it to the I've taken it to the the place. I don't know why they still squeak.

Hear Tim coming down the the street.

Go, go, go, go, go. You're welcome.

No. But I love I love that because it does. It gives I think it gives the opportunity to to see what other people sometimes are seeing. Right? Keep going back to the caregiver example.

You should be grateful for this. Right? Because they're seeing it. They're seeing something and that you may not see. Right?

And so in this moment, like, you know, realizing, oh, I am grateful for my bike. You may not have seen it before now, but now you're seeing it. Right? And somebody else might look at you and be like, yeah. You should be grateful for your bike.

Right? It does get you around.

So Well, this feels like the beginning of, as we wrap up this, the introduction of, should we do an episode about curiosity? Because this idea of like, well, you should be grateful because there are kids who don't have it, like the adults of the child example. Like, yeah. But did you tell me that? And I'm gonna bring it to this, I'm gonna talk, like, a queer perspective.

I was at a gym in New York City, 23rd Street and Seventh Avenue, and there was a very young, sexy boy. And I forget exactly what he was saying or what he was doing, but, he was existing in our current world. A a world of, like, prep and, condomless sex and, like, a lot of, like, very few consequences with regards to, like, how to, you know, engage. And then there was this older man with whom I was a friend who was very triggered and annoyed by this. And so the the young boy left.

I he went to do his workout. I'm I'm assuming it was great. And this man and I, I was completing my workout, so I was getting dressed and he and I were talking and he was, like, so upset about, like, the lack of appreciation that this boy had. And I said to him, I remember thinking, I was like, I hear you and I get it. I said, but how can we expect that person to understand all the things that happened prior to them?

I said, I had the opportunity to have, some older gay men and they're like, you have to watch this this movie and see this piece of theater and read this book and, you know, to give me some insight into the things that had happened prior to my life experience. I said, can we be can we be mad at this boy for not understanding? He he grew up in a world where there were iPhones and prep. And then I was like, so whose responsibility? Can we legitimately be angry at him for not being grateful for the things he doesn't even understand didn't exist?

And so I think that's an important part of the conversation around like, well, if I bring some curiosity, well, what could I do? Rather than expecting him to be grateful, could I create a situation in which he might find gratitude once he realizes

The context.

Yeah. Well, and like, in this case, like, the catastrophe, the the deep darkness and sadness that came through the HIV AIDS epidemic in the eighties and early nineties. But if you were born in 2007 and you're now a gay person, like, you know, is it fair for me to be like you should be grateful? I don't I mean, I think it becomes our collective responsibility to then figure out ways to help people understand, well, this is the legacy upon which you are standing. But if we don't if we don't show them that, how will they know?

How can I expect you to know Right? If I don't show it to you?

We're shoving an expectation onto people that they should be aware. They should know these things, and they should have the empathy to be able to relate and thusly have the context they need in order to be grateful. Right? That's our expectation. But can we remove that expectation?

And this goes to all things about gratitude. Right? Like removing the expectation of how others express their gratitude, liberates us as well. It liberates us to be able to then take that opportunity to be able to say, okay. Like, this person currently is not expressing gratitude.

So can I bring my curiosity? Can I bring my own empathy into that situation and my own understanding and validate they have an experience so that maybe I can then be validated in my experience where once I express what happened and start to bring that person into the pain, into the the discomfort, whatever it might be, maybe then it gives them that perspective now, that ability to then relate empathetically to then be able to say, oh, I am grateful? I am grateful for all of that I have right now. But in that moment, maybe they just didn't have it.

Right. So I think, there's value. I've thought this a long time, maybe a different episode, but value in how can our LGBTQIA two s plus community create environments in which people can learn. Things have changed really fast. Like prep is everywhere now.

But 15 years ago, it didn't exist. That's really fast. Right? The early eighties, HIV AIDS was a death sentence and now I know a lot of people who are living long full lives because the medications have changed and like the, like the way that you can manage them have changed. So we need to find ways, I believe, to help our community understand, well, when you can go to a circuit party and behave in certain ways because of these things, they came because a lot of the sacrifice, research, effort, sadness.

You know? And so I hope that through the understanding of another person's experience, you might be grateful for what you've got. But I also think that then we have to become responsible for, can I create the causes through which you can find that gratitude? Because if you never know and I never tell you, then I can't expect you to know.

Can I can I be the cause that gives you the context? Maybe the comparison to bring in that compassion that could create the opportunity. There's a lot of alliteration right there. Create the opportunity for gratitude. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. And I think it really this is why gratitude is. It's so powerful. Yeah.

But it's really complicated. We have really complicated relationships with this concept. And I think that we covered a lot of the reasons why we might have, a complicated relationship. I think there's still a lot more to unpack, but I think we

Yeah. I have one more story. Okay. I have one more story to tell you, then you're gonna wrap up. Okay.

It's I was on the swing tour, my first national tour that I ever did. And originally when I auditioned, they're like, we're gonna hire you. We're thinking of you for this role, the West Coast swing role. I was like, great. But they they had casted it in this odd way and so that we all everyone who got hired, like, showed up and then we, we, like, did a 2 week, like, workshop and then they did the official casting and gave us, like, the, you know, information.

And through that process, I was not chosen as the West Coast person. I was chosen as the I'll be seeing you person. And I was initially, like, disappointed because the I'll be seeing you person had a great role. I had a great role. But it was, like, more sentimental.

It was less flashy and, you know, we would perform the show and the West Coast couple would almost always get like a flashy review because they did big tricks and they had like silver shimmery dresses and the girl would, you know, and I was doing this sort of world war 2 era like ballet piece, you know, reminiscing about the girl that I left behind that I almost certainly died, you know, it was, you know, it was a very different feel, you know. Anyway, I finished that tour. Amazing. I moved back to New York City. I'm, like, now pursuing Broadway, and I audition audition audition and then I look back and I think to myself, I am so glad that I did not get originally cast in the West Coast swing role.

Because if I had, I would have gotten a ton of reviews. I would have thought that I was the shit. I would have walked into auditions thinking I deserved all kinds of stuff, but I didn't. I walked in thinking that, you know, I still had to earn and whatever. And I think in large part, I was then able to book other things because I did not walk in with ego And the like, some air about me, I walked in with a humility and, like, a desire to keep working, but I only had that realization in retrospect.

That's right.

And then I actually got to do the West Coast swing role, and it was really fun and I loved it. And so then I had even greater gratitude for well, then I got to experience what it was like to not feel like the flashy star of the show, take that to New York, and then I got to do it the other way. And it felt I I I enjoyed it. But I learned the lesson of, like, humility and and I I believe it's a topic for a different episode, but I believe my I booked my first Broadway show in large part because my reputation and the people with whom I had worked knew that I was, like, a humble, hardworking guy. And in that same audition was, a few people who had a reputation of being like they thought they were divas.

And I think I booked the gig in that moment because they knew I wasn't. Yeah.

What I hear is that in that moment, there was a preference. Right? You didn't get your your top choice. You didn't get your your preference. You got an opportunity though to step into another role.

Another opportunity that then gave you perspective, gave you context and also an opportunity to develop humility in that moment that then served you moving forward, you know, to, to then be able to step into other opportunities. And I think the theme here, right, is presence context, a little bit of comparison, right? Like we do have to keep these things in mind as we're looking at what we're grateful for. Right? To truly for for me anyway, to truly feel authentic.

Right. And not forced. And so, you know, I think that that is a beautiful story that can highlight that. That it's like in those moments of, like, deep preference of, like, shit. That's the role that I wanted.

Like, oh, like, there's so much frustration. Like, it's hard to be grateful. It's really challenging to be grateful when you don't get what you want or you don't get what you think that you deserve. Right? Like, or you any sort of a preference or attachment to something.

It's really hard to be grateful. But you proved that there can be something that you can be grateful for. And it might it might take a little bit of hindsight. It may take a little bit of, you know, distance space away from the moment. But then bringing it back and seeing like, wow, that needed to happen in order for all this other stuff to happen.

And I can be really grateful for that. Yeah. So I think, you know, with with that, like, it's kind of the summary of this episode. All of the episode had to happen to get to this present moment. So, like, I'm really grateful for this time with you.

Really grateful that we get to to do this together. Really appreciative of, your presence and being here with you and being able to do this. And so with that, how are you feeling?

I feel complete.

I feel complete as well. Will you take us out?

Take a deep inhale through the nose. Gentle exhale through the mouth. And as we step away, I wish us all connection, brotherhood, authenticity, vulnerability, deep appreciation, and gratitude. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken. Thank you so much for joining us here in The Circle.

If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queermensembodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken. Uho.