Queer Confidence in Healthcare: Advocating for Authenticity and Empowerment

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to The Circle. Today, we're thrilled to welcome Jeffrey Shaffer, a nurse and program manager, to discuss how queer men can approach their health care with more confidence. By connecting to their truths, queer men can navigate medical spaces with less shame and greater authenticity. We'll explore how men's work provides tools for having more open and honest conversations about our health.

Tim and Jeff, are you ready to go all in? Yes. Yes. Mhmm. Alright.

Well, let's go. Jeffrey, we're so excited to have you here. To start, could you share a little bit about yourself, the work you do as a program manager, and what inspired you to focus on this area of care?

Sure. Thanks. I'm Jeffrey Shaffer, and, I'm a nurse out in Provincetown, and I became a nurse late in later in life. So about 10 years ago, I became a nurse and started working at a local clinic out here, then became an HIV case manager. And then while I was here, I saw a need for, access to, sexual health services.

We always had these available at the clinic, but because of what Provincetown is and the amount of visitors, and the way insurance works, a lot of people might go to the clinic and then be faced with costs their insurance may not cover them. They might be foreign, you know, like, lots of different things. They might be here for the summer and not have insurance. So, I created a program to, take care of those services and make it easier. We've always had well, not always.

We've had access to no cost testing in town, but what happens when you get something, you know, or if you wanna access PrEP, or if you're living with HIV and you need access to care. So I had certain funding, and then the holes in the funding that we had that I couldn't do, I just found ways to do those and started the program.

Mhmm.

And it's been amazing.

Well, it's an important program, and we're glad that it exists. And we're very glad that you're here. In the context of The Circle and The Circle podcast, this space is really about men's work. And the men's work space, men's work is really a a community. It's a movement.

It is a series of practices and questions and inquiries and reflections all geared to help men live more fully and authentically and to break free from some of the cultural, indoctrination or or expectations that have been placed on us. And at the circle in particular, we are starting the conversation from the queer male perspective because my personal experience has been that there hasn't been a lot or there aren't currently a lot of queer men in the space. The space is generally filled with cisgendered, straight men. And so when I was in that space, I realized, oh, there are parts of the queer experience or, you know, my own personal gay male experience that I didn't always feel were fully understood. And so that's what we're doing here.

And so I'm interested to know, considering that you work largely with gay men, what are some of the most common challenges that you observe in your patients with regards to how they are able to speak about or discuss their, health concerns, needs, or or treatment desires?

It's a lot. No. I think that, I like to when I talk to providers and when I thought about when I was setting up the program, I thought, well, what do I not like about seeking these services? What, you know, what makes me anxious? What have I been taught through my life?

You know? And I think that as queer people, we're taught that if we seek services and we go into them with honesty, then we are shamed, or in in some some way or another where they're either disgusted or there's an area of disbelief. And so we've been taught over the years, and, I came out you know, I'm turning 60 this year and, lived through the you know, right before HIV AIDS came on the scene and then through that, and so, the years of trauma and fear around sex, has resulted in this I mean, this is before too, but you couldn't be honest when you were seeking services. And so I think that as community and to this day, especially thinking about the recent MPOX, it wasn't until we teach each other what to say so that when we seek services, that we don't have to deal with the the stigma and the judgment. When I talk to maybe some cisgendered or or people who are not used to dealing with community, I go, you know what?

We are when we walk in, we're dialed up to 9 because of our past experiences or what our expectations are when we go in there. And so you might ask the most benign question to ask, and then we fly off the handle because we're anticipating it. We're waiting for it to happen. And it might just be something it might be the smallest thing, but because you don't deal with it all the time, it sets us off, you know, and we are instantly thinking this person is not able to take care of us, and it's so there's not only the stigma that's given to us, but the one that we put on ourselves as well. And so it was very important to me to explore, you know, why I felt uncomfortable when I was setting up the program and also finding out, you know, why, providers ask those type of questions that they ask.

And then challenging those and or just exploring them and saying, like, well, you know, what, what purposes is do those questions have, and how does that help you give me the give me the care that I need? And and so exploring that was a made me able to, help reduce that I know I got.

Do you believe that there was a series of questions that were commonly asked to queer men, that are are not really serving a purpose and that you have eliminated from your conversation?

One of my cornerstone questions is, I asked, why do you ask us the number of partners we had in the last 6 months? And the answer that I would get is because that's always been uncomfortable for me, plus also sometimes I'm like,

What's that?

There's a great there's a great section in the city scene where Samantha's you know, she gets asked that at a clinic, and then she just kinda freezes. And they're like, did you hear me? And she goes, I'm counting. And and I did the same thing where I'm going, like, going, like, sometimes sometimes I know the number, and sometimes I don't know the number.

And

the answer that I would get is, like, well, the more partners you have, the more risk you are for things. And I go, well, I think we all get that. You know? Like, I call it the lottery concept. I go, I know if I buy one lottery ticket that I can win the lottery, but I know if I buy a lot more lottery tickets that I have a better chance of winning it.

And so, I go, but still, what is that discreet number, ETE discreet number, do for you as a provider? Like, what are you gonna do for me differently if I answer 220 or 200? And I haven't gotten a good answer yet. Mhmm. And so I challenge that question, and when I talk to providers, I say the same thing.

I was I had been asked recently, why do you say it's never good or it's it's never appropriate to ask that question? I said, well, I've never said that. What I say is that if that question provides your care as a or guide your care as a provider, then ask it. But if it doesn't, you know, then why are you asking it? And if and I would explore that the reasons are are might be their origin might be in shame.

You know? And I wanted to create I didn't wanna create that environment. And so, I, I'm gonna have a little disclaimer here, you know, because there is funding. I asked certain questions that are based upon the funding that I get, but I also started off with I'm gonna ask certain questions. And if you don't want if you feel uncomfortable answering it, you can say pass.

And unless it guides the care that I'm gonna give you, I'm just gonna move on.

Because, ultimately, if we talk about an STI like gonorrhea, I could have it after having one partner or having and the and so the court the the course of care isn't gonna change based on the fact that maybe I had 10 partners and not Right. It's it's just we've we realize that something is present, and then we treat it. Right? Is that the thinking?

Right. The chance you know, there obviously, your chances of of of getting something are more if you have more partners and, you know, but I think we all get that. And, also, I think the question could be different. So it's like, are you, you know, in a monogamous relationship with you're a 1000% sure that it's monogamous. You know?

Mhmm. But, also, I'm in a sex clinic. You know? So, like, if someone's like, I'm in a monogamous relationship, and I'm like, well, I think you're in the wrong department. So, but I don't you know, I like I like to use humor a lot.

And when I talk to providers, I say, well, you know, like, what are you gonna you know, when in with that example, like, what are you gonna do if I say 200 versus 2? Are you gonna swab harder?

Right.

And the answer is, of course not. You know? So it's just finding it. It doesn't matter, you know, how many were there before. It's just finding it.

You know? And so and so I I question the the origin of that question and, and then go kinda go from there.

So another thing I heard you say in response was, in response to the challenges that queer men might face when they step into these spaces is this idea of education and helping to educate people as to how to ask the questions or the right the right questions to ask or the things to look for. And that feels really important to me. I wanna share a quick story about education because I came from a lot of really fear based, thinking around being queer and gay. Right? And so when I was a young boy, I was just under the impression that gay men got HIV and AIDS the way it was talked to me.

You know? And so before I learned like how these things actually work, I remember my first, HIV test, I was very, very nervous because I'm I'm like, oh, my mom and my grandmother, they said, like, well, this is just coming for me at some point. And when I look back on it, and that was the time when it took 2 weeks to get your results. Right? When I look back on it, I I think, oh, well, knowing what I know now, I had nothing to worry about.

But for 2 weeks, I was pretty terrified because of a fear based kind of education. So I really feel now how important it is to have a judgment free place and the right questions to ask because what ultimately we care about is health and wellness. Right? So so what are some ways you think we as a community can support each other in this and in this endeavor of more education and supportive, helpful questions.

I think that it's important that we, and it's, you know, like, I struggle with it. Everybody struggles with it. The, ability there you know, there's a power dynamic too with with providers. And so, I think that asking questions and, looking at resources. There's a great website that I refer people to, please or that has to do primarily with PrEP, but it's called please prep me dot org.

And so, one of the great things about that site is that it not only has a part for the person seeking PrEP, but it also has, provider resources. And it has resources that if your provider is resistant to giving you PrEP, it has examples of how to talk to them about it. And, I've had because we're we have so many visitors, I'll talk to patients, and I'll say, you know, well, here's the site, and, you know, and you you you might be able to you know, like, oh, my my my primary my PCP won't give me PrEP. They say things like just use condoms, you know, blah blah blah. So and I've had different stories where people have reported back and said, you know, I talked to my provider, and now they're giving me PrEP.

Like, they've oh, I didn't know that it was this easy. You know? And, easy is when we're stating it, but, and I've had some of them come back that have said, they still won't give it to me. And I go, well, you know, I also am a big fan of fire your provider. You know?

Like, it it's not easy. You know? There is definitely a shortage, all over, and it's it's hard to do, but, also, you know, you deserve care of someone who's gonna take care of you. It's called you know, it's collaborative care. It's not just them telling you what to do and you doing it.

It's just saying this is how it goes in my life, and, I can either do it or not do it, or how can I get somewhere there? Mhmm.

So through a conversation like that, really encouraging men to live authentically and bring their authentic selves to their appointments and to start to advocate for themselves. And I think that's a big part of of men's work. And the work that we're trying to accomplish here with this podcast is to really get out that message of, like, really helping people to live more honestly, honestly, and authentically by connecting with themselves and connecting with others. So, go ahead.

I yeah. I I get excited. And, I also question how honest we have to be with them. You know? So, like, and, again, is it the question thing?

And so, like, I've gotten a lot of providers to say, you know, I'm not gonna ask that question anymore. You know? Like, or because I say, like, well, ask it in a different way. You know? Like, do you have one more you know?

Like, are you, you know, are you having sex? You know? First of all, sexually active is a horrible question. You know? Those kind of things.

So, ask the thing that you're, that you're trying to get. So, like, are you at risk for STIs? You know? Like, so, like, you know, have you had sex?

It's about understanding what the intention is behind the question. Like you said, like, is there something shameful inherent in the question? Yep. Or is it truly just trying to get at the root of what somebody might be visiting the the clinic or the the doctor for? Like, what is that true intention behind it?

And I would say in probably 95% of the cases, it's just because that's how they were trained to do a sexual health history, and they haven't even sat down and thought about why they ask it. You know? Because they because I always say, well, you know, what you can what you can do if you know, with the different answers. And the you know, like, when they think about it, they're like, oh. And but even the, you know, like, the CDC, and they put out this guidebook of how to take a sexual health history.

And I point out in to the providers, I go, on page 3, it says, this is not meant to be a script. It's meant to be examples of what you can ask people to get an idea of their sexual risk. And so but in so many instances and in so many conferences that I go to, everybody goes, no. I have to ask that question. I have to ask that question.

I have to ask that question. I'm like, why? What does it do for you? What does it matter to you? Like and other questions, like, what does it matter if my mouth touches the genitals of someone who identifies as a cisgendered male or a trans female?

What does it matter? You know? And so sure. There's data. Great.

But but it doesn't matter medically what I'm doing or what I'm testing you for. And so, like, I question those questions, and I think it's, important to respectfully, you know, say to providers. And you can even say, like, you know, I've always been kind of uncomfortable answering that. What does that do for you? Like, how does that guide what you're gonna do for me?

You know? And or just say, what does that do? You know? What does that do for you? And then it gets them thinking about it, and I think that's how, as queer people, we can influence the care that we get.

Instead of saying, like, you're not supposed to ask me that. You know, just say, like, you know, like treating or or because they've just been told what to ask. And they and a lot of times, they don't have a malicious thing behind it. They're just asking what they thought they're supposed to ask.

Well, that feels really empowering, this idea of inquiring what use is that information to you because I am fully invested in moving towards my own health and wellness. Right? So that feels like a like a powerful way to engage because I'm not unwilling to answer the question if it is in service to my highest good. I'm unwilling to answer it if it's just a rote question without any value.

Right.

And then and then we could talk a little bit about how some of these things might make us feel, shame, embarrassed, or, you know, we may not be practiced in answering them, so we might have a whole emotional experience around it. But, I love that idea because there's nothing wrong with I am so invested in my own care that I'm interested in how you're giving it to me. Yep. And, like, really advocating for your own health and wellness.

I agree. But I also think that it comes with a certain level of confidence. Like, when you were saying that, like like, I don't know that I would feel comfortable in that position to, like, talk to my provider in that way. You already said there's a power dynamic at play here.

Mhmm.

I'm coming in at a 9. Right? I'm already on edge. I'm already a little anxious for a lot of different reasons. And so now I'm coming in there, like and now I have to advocate for myself.

So, like Right. That's where I think that men's work can really come in useful for a lot of folks where it's like, okay. Like, how can we, you know, work on our confidence and work on our ability to be present, to, go from a place of reacting to a place of response where we can accept a question like that. And instead of immediately reacting, because, like, my immediate reaction would be, like, go and answer the question. Yep.

Right? Versus responding and being able to to counter it with a a follow-up question.

And maybe you don't wanna educate everybody. Sometimes you're just tired. Sometimes you're just like I mean, you know, I think about, all the things that we've learned over the last few years about, you know, like, like, people trying to advocate for themselves. And sometimes you're just like going, I'm not this spokesperson for my community. I'm not here to educate each and every person that I run across.

And so sometimes you're just tired. You know? And you just sometimes you just say more than 1. I had more than 1 partner. You know?

And so and if that doesn't get you what you want, say 2. Just keep going until they get you what you want. You know? So, I think that there's a good value to realizing those limitations as well and and and respecting not only, yourself, but just the your time. We go in there to the office thinking, I might have all the shame.

You know, I was a Grace Catholic and blah blah blah, all this sort of stuff. But guess who else was? Your provider. Your provider isn't any more comfortable with some of these subjects as anybody else. And, you know, it's not like you're talking about renal function, you know, or the or this and that or something easy.

You're talking about sexual health. So there's got all this other stuff, you know, stigma associated with it. I also think about when you think about people who smoke, you know, or people who overeat. You know? And so there are all these things that have some type of, you know, the 7 deadly sins or whatever when, that your provider does not get treated in how to get rid of that themselves.

They've got their own baggage that they're coming in with. And, that's always, I think, important to realize as we realize you know, because I know, like, a a lot of your subjects talk about, listening to other people and and respecting their, experiences, and that includes a provider too. You know? It's, you know, it's on our job to take care of the providers, but recognizing that they have their own stuff that they come in with.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

And having honest conversations can be very uncomfortable, especially in a topic of sexual health or or but really for me, it's like anytime I go to the doctors. I, like, I have to write myself notes, or else I'm gonna be so in my own head and, like, frantic that, like, I may not reveal what I came there to reveal. I may not, have my wits about me to be able to, like, speak what I'm trying to to be there for. And so what I do is I sometimes have to write myself notes. Other times, I just have to remind myself, like, why I'm there.

But, like, being honest can be really hard in these these environments where, like, it doesn't even have to be about sexual health. It could be about anything that I'm at the doctors for. Just, like, not that I'm gonna, like, like, lie, but maybe sometimes I might, like, hide a little information.

Well, it's not uncommon, like, if you think about the dentist. You know? Like, do you floss every day? I know a lot of people

Oh, yeah.

Definitely lie about that question because they're like, I feel a little embarrassed. If I if the answer isn't what I think you want it to be, there can be a little embarrassment in that.

And here's and I I just went to the dentist, and so I always redo it. I always relive this because as a I had a dentist in San Diego, and I always used to have that same thing of, like, oh my god. What am I gonna say? You know? But he I said, yeah.

I didn't, you know, you're gonna be mad at me because I didn't floss, you know, that much. And he said, I don't care if you floss. And I was like, what? And, this shapes this shapes me as a nurse so much where he said, you only have to floss the teeth that you wanna keep. And I was like

Oh my god.

I am a great flosser now. Like and I'm saying, like, like, oh. And so when I went through nursing school, it was so funny because so many people would be like, take care of these people, and I just go, I'm just here to give you information and kinda help you do it. Like like, you're not I'm not telling you what to do. Like, I'm giving you information.

Like, you're gonna go home either do it or not do it, and that's gonna be based on a lot of different things. And so, I don't, so if you were gonna lose £5 and then you come back and you didn't lose £5, like, that doesn't affect me as a nurse. I'm not your best friend. I'm not your mother. You know?

I'm not your boyfriend. I'm not your lover. So I'm like, I go, you're gonna leave it out of here. When, like, I think about that with case management too. Like, I'm here to give you the tools, but if you don't, like, you know, bring me the pay stubs that I need or this and that, like, it that's not gonna result in me losing my insurance.

I'm gonna feel like it sucks for you if you do lose your insurance because of that. You know? And so that that guides my like, am I gonna give you lots of reminders to do it? You know? But when people come back and they're like, I'm sorry.

I didn't do that. I'm not sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You have to go.

You never have to apologize to me because this also keeps me employed. But I it's not gonna hurt me. It's not gonna hurt me, and it's gonna suck for you. You know? And it's not that I'm not empathetic.

It's just that it doesn't and I'm you know, I might I will think about it because I'll be like, you know, like because, you know, just because it was ingrained into my head. Yeah.

So I'm curious. Like, how can men work with this shame? The shame that we're we can bring into these appointments where, like, if I'm if I'm coming to you with my hat in my hand, ringing it where I'm like, oh my gosh. I I I messed up. I, like, I failed at what you told me to do.

Like, that's inherent shame. I'm embarrassed and, like, got all this baggage. I'm like, how do we start to work with our own, like, programming and shame to to have more honest conversations in health care?

I don't know. Please tell me.

I mean, from a men's work perspective, I would say like step 1 would be just getting clear about what it is we're actually experiencing when we step into that environment. So I have to imagine a lot of people, if they're not going inward, if they're not thinking about their own, emotional experience or or or that sort of thing, you you end up in the waiting room and suddenly having a physiological experience of anxiety or some other thing, fear or whatever, and probably not a lot of context around it. So I would say step 1 would be like inquiry and identification. So even in one of the examples you gave earlier about, not not not knowing if we're even gonna fully answer the question, walking and saying, oh, I recognize that I'm tired of having to educate my providers, or I recognize that I'm feeling shame or like this old shame is popping up for me because the the answer may not be what is culturally like expected of someone like me. Any of those things, just that awareness I think can help you step in and be like, oh, I'm I'm wrestling with some shame right now.

And then allowing there to be that space. So that from a men's work perspective, I think that would be step number 1, that awareness. I think what you mentioned though, it's like it can go further. If you have that awareness, you're probably more likely than to prepare yourself in a way that will buttress you in some of those moments. So it won't necessarily take all of the shame or fear or embarrassment or fatigue or whatever away.

But, oh, I might be able to write down my questions that I really need. I might be able to write down reminders to myself on a different sheet of paper like you are good and lovable. So, yeah, I had I had 8 partners in the last 2 weeks. And then my my little that that I'm making that number up everyone. But I Who is more?

Don't don't judge me.

No. But just and then I have the sheet of paper that maybe says like you are lovable, like this is fine or whatever whatever would work. So I think that the the men's workspace can provide a lot of, foundation for slowly starting to chip away at this. But I would say, you know, I'm 46 years old now. I lived in New York City for 25 years.

Now I live in Provincetown. I have been in very friendly, places that were had a lot of nonjudgmental healthcare and I still sometimes feel embarrassed.

Yeah. Yeah.

So we also have to recognize it's a journey because when I step into a nonjudgmental medical space like I have at Outer Cape in Provincetown, there are still moments when I'm like, oh, and it's like that old that old Catholic Yeah. Teaching.

Yeah. I'm gonna throw something else into that. It's not even sometimes that it's the judgment the judgment of, or fear of judgment in the the the health care conversation. It's sometimes I'm like, I'm starting to judge myself in relation to what the subject is. So Right.

I'm typically a monogamous gay. Right? Like, I am prone to being in long term monogamous relationships. And, like, the the first time that I went to go get prep, I was like, I was I was like, oh my gosh. Like, why am I here?

What am I doing? Like, am I like, this isn't this isn't my lifestyle. This isn't who I am. And I was just like I was so in my own head, and and it was about my relationship to the gay community, queer community, versus my relationship with my health provider. So I was bringing in something different as well.

Wait. Because you felt that you didn't, you were, like, a little different from the community that you thought you were supposed to be part of?

Exactly. So, like, I was being told, like, oh, you've gotta get on prepped. You're single now. And I was like, oh, I'm different. Like, I guess.

But, like

I mean, it's it's so funny because it's the norms of what we're so you know, like, we run the gamut. Right? And, like, you know, I there's people that I've worked with who, like, they think every gay is, like, in a monogamous, you know, thinking that I'm just like, no, honey, you're the unicorn. Like, you know? And,

but Wait. Who who people that you work with think that?

Well, I I think that I think that some people think that, like, the goal is this. Like, the and I'm like, oh, like, for you. You know? And so, I just have so many stories I can't tell.

But, What I wanna unpack a little bit here is that there's there are different parts of what people are bringing in to a health care conversation. There's a lot of, self talk that's going on. There may be triggers that happen in the conversation. And so we're really just exploring, like, how can we get a message out there to to more queer men about, like, how to build confidence to bring their authenticity into these spaces.

I would you know, like, it it sort of brought me back with the the prep conversation and the the varying degrees of, like, I was in a monogamous relationship, blah blah blah. And I think that, as someone who lived through, you know, the, the the bad years, I I say that if PrEP came out in 1996, we'd all be on it, like like, without. You know? So, but because it became something that was, a chronic disease that's manageable, that the threat, was reduced. And I I I look I draw a lot of parallels between that and birth control, because I will have people come in and say, like, oh, I'm in a monogamous relationship now, so I'm gonna go off prep.

And I'm like, okay, girl. So your homework is to go home and turn on the TV and find some story that's not about somebody cheating. And I go, I don't know you. I oh, here, I probably do. But I don't know you.

I don't know who you're with. You know? Like and I don't know your relationship. You know? Like, there's there's such a myriad of what our relationships are like, you know, that, I go, but so, you know, prep is not about, your relationship.

Prep is about protecting yourself, and and it's not you're not protecting yourself against your partner. You're protecting yourself against HIV. And so if that partner were to cheat and if that partner were to cheat and to give you HIV so like like I said to somebody once ago, so if, you know, it's something to consider. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. Whatever it's your you're you're gonna walk out of here, and you're not gonna do something because Jeff said you'd do it.

Think about how if that's an important value to you, your monogamy, think about how bad it would feel to be cheated on, but even how worse it would be to be cheated on and now you have HIV.

Yeah. And that's And I get conversation I did have with a partner. I was in a long term relationship, and we had the agreement that, like, we're both gonna go off of prep. Yep. Right?

We, like, had that safety and security with each other, and that was our our agreement. But then something happened. There was an incident one night. Mhmm. There there was no infidelity, but there was, like, something that that could have happened.

Mhmm. And I started taking PrEP the next day. Yep. And I didn't have that conversation with them, and then they found out about it. And then we had to have, you know, a deeper conversation.

Yep. And it was like, you know, I was making a health care decision for myself. Right. And it caused a lot of friction in the relationship. You know?

And, like, so there's a lot of layers here involved.

Yeah. I mean, I can see how it happens, but, also, I can you know, I will tell people, I go, listen. I'm not I'm not here to tell you what to do, but as you know, if I step out of my nurse role and now I'm just the gay elder, you know, like where I say, it's if your partner is pressuring you not to be on prep because of that, I go, and that's worth exploring in whatever, you know, realm that you're in because that would feel a little abusive to me and a little controlling and not a little. Kidding. Pretty controlling.

And so, like or, you know, they probably have issues about that, and and their whole thing is, like, if you're on this, that makes it easier to cheat. And so, again, think of how much worse that cheating or that jealousy and everything is with HIV now involved. And so it But

even that complicated. Even that is an act of, like, self advocacy.

Right.

Right? That, like, some people struggle with. I myself struggle with that. And what I've learned with with men's work is to is to how to better listen to myself, my own personal experience, and to also, like, be an advocate for me.

Right. Mhmm. And Can I go back to one more thing that you said that I loved was, I got a little excited, and I, put up my finger to remind me? The writing down notes, you know, when you go in because then I I and I did this in nursing school, and I was with a family that was, I you know, as a student nurse, and so they were just kinda freaking out and, like and they had told me that they were just so nervous. And you you know, when you're in a hospital, you wait for that 5 minutes that the the surgeon's coming around us then.

So and I had, like, a little spiral notebook, and so I gave it I ripped out my notes, and I gave it to them. And I go, write down every question you have. I go, and then they come in here. You ask them every question. I go, and if you don't understand the answer, then you say, I didn't understand that, or explain it to me like you would a 3 year old.

You know? Like, whatever it is. Because when we go into these situations, if we don't have a lot of medical knowledge or even a little medical knowledge, like, we don't you know? And then it's a high pressure situation. They're only in there for a limited amount of time because of insurance things, and so you only have and it's okay to say, like, I didn't really understand that.

Can you explain it a different way? Or and I felt like I had figured out, like, oh, that's what a good thing to do. And I still do that to this day where I like, when I go to my provider, I'm like, oh, I wanna ask that because 9 times out of 10, when you leave, you're like, damn it. I didn't ask that. You know?

Yeah. I mean, writing things down, getting out of the brain onto paper, I mean, is just a valuable exercise in general. I think of, like, journaling. Right? Just, like, getting it out there.

But what other tools, Tim, do you think would be valuable to help people kinda coming down from that 9 that they may be entering into a health care conversation? Like, how I get them down to, like, out of 7. I mean, I think

I think that we could look at basically all of the practices in men's workspaces that we have already discussed, specifically the ones that will take us to our edges. So whether it's our physical edge or our mental emotional edge, you know, Getting familiar with our capacity and the ebbing and flowing of that capacity will help us literally in every situation in which we then meet our capacity. Right? Or are being pushed beyond our capacity. And this is a great example of that.

So it kind of it can maybe seem crazy that, oh, breath work in, men's embodiment circle where we have a long breath retention that is challenging could translate into me being able to ask, thoughtful questions, you know, advocating for my own health and wellness. But it can because what you will do is you will, you will in a safe training environment, get to a place where you feel very uncomfortable, very, you know, on the, on the verge of reaction. And you will know what that feels like. You'll start to get familiar with, oh, I'm starting to feel my edge approaching. And then hopefully if you do it enough, you have a toolset that you can start to utilize in that moment.

So for me, grounding exercises that I've definitely used, you know, prior to dental appointments or you know, or you know, I've had numerous surgeries and have gone to the hospital with a lot of anxiety because they're going to drill into my head or they're going to cut my shoulder open or, you know, whatever the thing that it was. And so I have used a lot of breath. I've sometimes used the shaking to go into the go into the bathroom and shake, to to discharge some of that nervous energy. So I would say, you know, any of the practices that we do typically movement, breath, sound, visualization, attention. For some people, meditation might be their go to.

As you just mentioned, sometimes journaling. And before I journal my questions to the doctor, I might journal a page about how freaked out I am. I might journal like, a mention of what education I had been given that I am now having to kind of sift through so that I can have clarity around why I feel embarrassed when someone, even a nonjudgmental caregiver, is asking me about my sexual, activity. So I would say on some level, kind of all of it.

You know, when you mentioned that, it made me think of the experience of going to the provider. And so you go check-in, and then you're waiting and this and that. And everybody's out there, and there's just all this tension around you and all this. And they go, and then you get in there and they take your you know, they do your vitals, and then you're waiting there for who knows how long. And, I think that's a great time where you can do things.

Like, I know sometimes I'll play, like, Sudoku or something like that. And so, like, you can I mean, you can turn on your little white noise machine, you know, and you can do that meditation while you're doing that? You can get up I think that some people feel that when you're put in the chair, you know, around the table that you're stuck there. It's like nobody else is in the room. You can do whatever almost everything whatever you want.

You know? So if you wanna get up and shake, nobody in nobody's in the room with you. Yeah. So go ahead and do it. You know?

If you need to go, like, or, you know, like, all those things to get going, do it. Like, who's gonna see it? You know? And then the doctor might walk walk in, and, you know, and if you turn and said, like, you know, I get nervous when I do this, and so this makes me feel better about it. They'd be like, I mean, they're gonna get it because they deal with that all day long.

I love that you just improved some, like, totally valid, embodiment practices. So, like, thank you for that, like, modeling it in real time. And I will say I was one time at the doctor and I was waiting for a long time. This was last year and I just happened to also be choreographing, a Christmas show in town. And so I was like, well, I'm gonna use this time.

And I put my headphones on, and I started, like, working through the choreography. And the doctor walked in

Yeah.

To see me dancing. And I was like I was like, I'm choreographing a show. And then, like, I I had no shame about it whatsoever. Because I'm like, well, you kept me waiting. So what am I gonna do?

Like Yeah. And I will guarantee you, like, so many people take that as I like, I don't know every situation, but I will guarantee you, especially at a at a a rural health clinic, where we are not reimbursed for, like, all you know, there's I will guarantee you that your doctor is not sitting in the office eating bonbons. Like, they're returning phone calls from hospitals. They're doing this. There's so much to do, and then they're just jammed one right after the other.

And I'm not saying don't be, your time is valuable. You know? And I go and I get that. You know? But, it's more the you know, I would say it's more of the system ish you know, it's it's a it's a problem of the system, and, you know, your, your provider, I know, feels it.

You know? And I'm I'm not saying, you know, everybody gets a clean slate. I'm just saying that I will, I always when people say, like, I had to wait an hour, blah blah, and I go, yeah. I I completely get it. It sucks.

And I go and I always say, but I will guarantee you that I know that provider. They're not just sitting in the office doing a Sudoku, and we don't wait to go in there. They're dealing with the person in front of you who at the same time visit might have 20 things going on, and you've got one thing. Like, it it doesn't it doesn't justify it. It's not a problem of the provider.

It's really the system, and and and they're trying to they're just as frustrated as you are. Mhmm. And so maybe that's a way to put on the same you know, like, your doctor is probably just as frustrated that they have 10 minutes with you, as you are. And so

And what I'm I have 2 things that I'm hearing. One is it's a friendly reminder, once again, that, like, trying not to take too much personally. Right? Like like, the questions that a provider may be asking, like, if I can kind of, like, remove myself from it and just kind of be like, okay. Like, what's the intention behind this question, and how can I answer this as honestly as possible that's comfortable for me?

Taking a little bit of person like, that taking it personally out of it. So, like, that's also very valuable. And I'm also curious, like, as a provider, like, on the other side, what are some of the ways in which you take care of yourself and you kind of, like, ground yourself before you go into an appointment knowing that you've just had to deal with a bunch of other stuff, whether that's paperwork, returning calls, all this stuff. So Yeah. We talked on the patient side some ways that, you know, we've self advocated and kinda self soothed.

But what about for yourself? How do you take care of yourself?

I'm the luckiest provider in the world because I'm not real I mean, am I a provider? Yeah. In some way. I'm a nurse, and I work understanding orders, which allows me to do certain things. You know?

But I also run a free program. You know? And, what I do doesn't take very long. You know? And so, like, I have tried to go, like, how can I make like, this isn't that complicated?

You know? When I named it, you know, I named it test and treat, and I'm like, because it's one word. I'm like, you gotta you can't have one word without the other. You know? But, also, when you remove a lot of the stuff that and, also, they're coming to me for sexual health services.

So, like, that eliminates a lot of the questions there. I run a free program. I provide services that they rarely get. So I I have the sweetest deal in the world, so I don't have the same stresses that a lot of providers do. And so I'm extremely lucky.

You know? I do get frustrated with some things, but even then, I go, like, if that's the worst problem I have today, oh my god. I'm so lucky.

So what I'm hearing is you take care of yourself with gratitude.

Again, I get to be the good guy. You know? Like, so so many people come in, and they're like, I've had people crying in the clinic going like, this is so amazing. And I joke around. I say, like, like, they're sitting there going, once they've once they have the relief that I'm not judging them you know, because I'll use terms that we all use.

Sometimes I'll throw a girl here and there and you know? Once they get that relief, you know, like, the I've had people go like, this is the most amazing program, and I just go and I look around and go, okay. It's fine. But then I say, the reason why this is so great is because it just sucks everywhere else. You know?

Like, it's so bad, so many other places that this, you know, program is just looked at as this queer, you know, like, light on a hell. And, you know, I go to conferences, and people are like, you're a rock star. And I'm like, ugh. All I did was remove all you know? Not completely removed.

You know? There's still things I have to do, you know, but and and I don't I mean, everybody has sex. You know? That's how I got here. You know?

So, like, this whole judgment, I I just don't do it. And so it's when they pick up on it, I've had people who are like, Yeah. I'm looking for PrEP because, you know, I always use condoms, you know, but what if they break? You know, I wanna make sure that if they break, and I just go and I just go, okay. You know, I I just keep moving on, and then they so this is specific, you know, that happened once, and then they picked up that I wasn't judging them for anything.

And they just go, I feel like I have to come clean about something. And I was like, okay. What? And they're like, I don't really use a lot of condoms. And I go, okay.

Like, yeah. I go, so let's you know? Yeah. This is how that protects you and, you know, how it doesn't protect you. And I like, yeah.

But Being able to relate to your provider Mhmm. Is so important to feeling comfortable and safe in an environment to reveal your authenticity, to reveal your truth, to reveal, like, what it is that you're actually trying to communicate and express. Yeah. Like, we've talked about it with with, seeking out therapy and wanting to find a queer therapist so that, like Mhmm. That that person has a understanding of where we're coming from, and there's not this, like, this need to, like, you know, explain ourselves or, like, you know, like, hide certain parts.

It's like there's a a relief that comes when we can relate to the provider. Right.

That reminds us. I think there's I love this one story where it's like, I was in a conference once where I was challenging the number of partners question with someone, and someone who, you know, had degrees much more higher than I was, like, really trying to challenge me on it. And they were saying, like, well, something about, like, if they have the reason why you wanna know how many partners is if they have a fisher down there, then you wanna know. You know? And, I'm sitting there going like I'm looking like and he stops, and I go, a fisher?

Are you serious? I go, someone comes in with a fisher, and the first thing you wanna think of is the number of partners. And I go, what that doesn't tell you anything. What if it's 1 person 200 times or 200 people once? Like, it doesn't even make any sense.

And he's like, it's like you know? But it also shows that, you know, you know, what people think the queer experience is.

It also makes me think, like, that person is assuming as well. Right? Like, oh, that's a bottom. Like, this is a gay person, and they're a bottom. They're they're only doing anal.

Right.

Right? And it's like there's a lot of things that we do in

Or maybe there's a top that shoved a 20 of them that was too busy getting there. They were just like, ah, I never had anything in there. You know? Right.

But the just the assumption as well that, like, because we're gay men, that, like, our only sexual activity is anal sex.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's like the picture. Yeah.

When it came back to me, the way I kind of went into it, I was like, when I think about sexual health, and I go, well, what's the goal? Like like, what what is what is a provider's goal? You know? Like, you know, so when I talk to providers, I I have you know, I bring out 2 fingers, and I go at one end of the spectrum. I'm at home wrapped in bubble wrap, and I never touch another human being.

On the other end of the spectrum, I'm in this thing 247, you know, just taking, you know, person after person. And I go, so where hello. And, like, if so, where is that person on that spectrum? You know, they're not at home wrapped in bubble wrap. Is my goal to get them to never touch another human being?

And I go, I don't want them to do that. And so, like, when we talk about the number of partners and all that kind of stuff, it's like, what's your goal as a provider? You know? So if they say 4, are you trying to get them to 3? And they're like, what's I don't understand.

And that concept is so, you know, different. You know? And so I say, I approach it as, I want you to have as many I I want you to have as little or as much sex with as many or as few partners consenting, that you want. And they wanna have sex, and they go, so I don't have anything in the game for it. You know?

And whether you're having multiple sex partners because as guys, sometimes it it's a lot easier to do it. You know? And sometimes it's very transactional. And I go, or because it's some sort of trauma, that that's not my department. You know, my department is just to keep safe while I do while you do it.

You know, it's not I don't have a I don't have a dog in this fight for, like, going I should probably use a different analogy than that. No.

I think

it's I guess Something less violent.

Right. I said this earlier, like like but me as the patient, like, I may I may be, like, taking things really personally.

Right.

Right? And I've gotta remove myself out of it by by saying that, like, my my care provider actually probably doesn't care. Yeah. Right? They care about my my my well-being, but they don't care about, like, the number of sexual partners I've had or, like, like, all these things that I'm thinking that they care about because I have something.

I have a narrative going on in my own head about it.

Well, there's also the though I will push back a little bit. You know, the education the sex education that I received in school was abstinence only.

Oh, yeah.

And it was framed in a in a in a Christian framework. So I do think sometimes there's an assumption that the way it should work is that you should be abstinent until you find that one true love and then with that person be monogamous. So I wanna make sure that we're being really mindful. Like, everyone in this room right now has the luxury of very nonjudgmental care.

Right.

But I imagine some listeners might be going to care providers who have a very different framework, or understanding of like how relationships can or should look. And I do think the the gay male community, especially the one we see in Provincetown and in big cities, operate really differently than, you know, many of the straight people that I know when I think about like, how we gather, how we connect and just expectations about, you know, partners and activities and things like that. So it it does seem possible that, that a person might find a caregiver with, with a strong idea of what it's supposed to be.

But then it's, like, maybe to your earlier point, like, how do we build confidence to fire your caregiver to, like, say this PCP is not the person for me, and I know that it's a a very fortunate position to be in that. Like, maybe I have access to multiple PCPs, but, like, you know, it's also building up that confidence that, like, I still believe that, like, if we can kind of remove ourselves a little bit from, like, the the accepting the judgment of somebody else and self advocating for ourselves, then we can have healthier, robust conversations about our own health care. Yeah. And if and if I can't have that conversation with somebody, then I have to go find somebody else to do it with.

Well, to be clear, I I'm in agreement with you, but I wanted to make sure that we weren't saying that it's only our pre preconceived notions that we're walking into. Like, it is possible that that provider has them too. Right. That's what I'm saying.

And I would say also, I think that, as you said earlier, it's important to feel safe in in your environment. And I think that, you you know, as this goes out to a lot of different places and maybe even, you know, as close as 10 miles away, you know, that, it's okay to when you think about these, the parts of health care that are judgmental or not, you know, so like overeating, you know, or, sex, you know, and smoking, things like that. So those are the you know, just drinking. Those are the kind of things drinking and drug use, those kind of things off the top of my head. No one's gonna go in there and go, like, oh, I fell down a flight of stairs and go, like, stupid idiot.

You know? And so, like, if you can't get it by being completely honest that it might be okay to say just enough to get what you need. Mhmm. You know what I mean?

Sounds like sounds like Strategically choosing

Right. If you're stuck with that provider

Yeah.

And if you're let's say that you're moving to get a new PCP, it might take a while to do that. So how do you get what you want while still being with that person? And and and accepting their limitations and saying, like, okay. You know, I'm not here to fix that person, you know, but that's not the right person for me. And maybe me opening up a spot for that person gets someone else who fits with them in.

You know? And so, but it the I think the reason why I approached this whole thing was to say, like, it's important for us to be able to seek services and to get what we want. And maybe we don't have to be a 1000% honest, you know, because of are we safe or not.

You know?

It might be you walk in. I mean, I, would get messages. You know? Like, I get messages like, I was a big hoe last week, you know. Can I come in for testing?

I'm like, sure. You know? So I'm sure that it's not the experience in a lot of places across the country. You know?

Well, we've talked about this on this podcast before, and this has been a really big part of of my life, how queer queer men, queer people, me as a gay man, I had to learn how to lie and manipulate in order to maintain my safety. And so it it's this game to be like, oh, I'm kind of constantly looking around to figure out like what I need to do in order to not put a target on my back or to call attention to myself or, you know, to keep myself safe in many ways. And I feel like this is that too. If you don't have the luxury of the kind of care that we are fortunate to have here in Provincetown and some other places, you know, scattered across our country, then it is totally legitimate to do what is needed to keep yourself safe. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

How about those red sox? Exactly. Exact yes. Yes. Do you know the score?

No. But I know the lyrics. No. It is. It's complete.

It's code changing. It's just like, you know, when I think about, you know, like you know, if it was up to me to lead the revolution of, like, I'm not I, like, I could I could pass, you know, well, maybe not so much now. But, but, you know, like, if it was up to, like, leading the fight in the beginning, I'm not gonna be that person, but it it's the people who can't live there who can't hide it. And so, like, I think, that it's okay to be able to use that to our advantage when we need to.

Well, I have a question for you. I'm gonna tell a story and leave the names out, but there was a a friend of mine who went Just

bleep them out. Yeah. I'm just kidding. A

a friend of mine who went to see their primary care, they had a bump on their scrotum.

Mhmm.

And they were concerned that it was, genital herpes. Mhmm. They got to the doctor. The doctor looked at the bump and was like, that's not genital herpes, and then walked out of the room and, like, that that was over. So then that person then later, I don't know how shortly thereafter, a day or 2, went to the to the dermatologist and, the dermatologist was like, oh, that's a genital wart.

Mhmm.

And my friend said, oh, I I just went to the doctor, and the the dermatologist said, I'm surprised they didn't tell you.

Yeah.

And then so we will take care of it here.

Yeah.

From your perspective, do you think that that's an opportunity to go back to that provider and ask questions about did did why didn't you tell me or did you not know? Because the dermatologist made it seem that it was crystal clear. And so there was this question mark, why didn't my primary care tell me what you told me what it wasn't, but you didn't tell me what it was. So do you think like, if we think about advocacy

Sure.

Is that the like, is that a thing that would be helpful? Is that the patient's responsibility? Like, what is your thoughts on that?

I don't think it's your responsibility. I think that if you have a relationship with that first person that you went to, if that's your primary care, then I think it's worth mentioning that that was, you know, but, I also like to tell people that, you know, that your primary care is a jack of all trades. You know? Like, they're not dermatologists. They're not specialists.

You know? Now was this a textbook lesion, you know, that they should have known that? You know? Like, maybe, maybe not. I don't know, you know, obviously, the situation.

But, like, your your primary care is meant to be the, like, the the stepping board to the other places. Like, if you have heart issues, you don't want your primary care doing all that stuff. You wanna go get a cardiologist, you know, and that kind of thing. So now there is like, when PrEP first came out, they they used to refer people to infectious disease specialists. You know?

It was ridiculous. You know? And now it's just part of primary care. And, so something's kinda removed and they reverse. You know?

So it's like because they give the infectious disease specialist, and they go here. And, really, it wasn't that easy. But, and so I think it's important to realize that your primary care has limits. You know? They're not, there's a reason why specialists are specialists and why they're making the big money is because they know what they know.

And, and, actually, the reason why I got in, first of all, to I mean, I have HIV, but also getting into HIV case management and all this. You know, I came in and you know, I graduated nursing, and I was working as a staff nurse in Wellfleet. And I was just, like, going, you know, I feel like I know 75% of everything, and I don't know 90% of anything. And so I wanted to focus on that, which I should have should have been focusing on myself since I already, you know, was already living with it. You know?

But, now I know a lot about one little area, but and so when I advocate when I approach a provider about, you know, they oh, they didn't talk to this person about this. I go, listen, I know you're I go, this is my world, and this is I'm making a little tiny circle, and they can make a huge circle because this is your world. And I go and I I know that, and I respect that. It's not gonna stop me from addressing what's in my little world with you, you know, but I also wanna acknowledge the fact that I know that you are doing not it it like, I'm I've got 3 areas that I'm working on. You know?

You got the rest. So and all the different parts. But so I think it's important to to recognize that. And, but, I wouldn't go back and go, like, that was you were wrong. You know?

But, also, you know, was it an extreme there's a lot of different possibilities on why that in that situation happened, but, I think it's up to you and the relationship. If I had gone to urgent care and I didn't know that person and then I went to somewhere else, and I I wouldn't go back to the urgent care and say that. But if I have a relationship with my, PCP I mean, this is all internal. Like, I don't know if I would feel comfortable going back and say they're doing it. But, I I think I think I think you can weigh out what it's what it's worth to you and go, oh, by the way, that was actually And they'd probably be like, oh, really?

And they're probably gonna go in the back and go, like, oh, shit. Like, what you know? Because they're, you know, they're human. They, you know, they care about and and going back to what we were saying before, I did wanna say, like, oh, we're disassociated from our patients. We obviously care, you know, but not too much.

Well, it it's a good example. It seems to me like a good example that, of as a queer person with the education and history or potential trauma that we have. In this example, my friend was wondering if it had to do with the the their sexuality or so so it might have been. But also what I'm hearing you say is a very compassionate sort of understanding benefit of the doubt approach too, which I like because chances are most most of the medical providers that I know, are well intended, hardworking people who who are seeing lots of people, you know Yeah. For 5 days a week, you know.

So, second opinions are great.

Get second opinions. Yeah.

It's okay.

Like

Which is essentially what I'm saying.

Getting something from another one. You see somebody else. Like, so go to urgent care. Go to this. You know?

And I I may make it I make it sound super simple. Like, you're just gonna walk in and get all the stuff. You know? Like, just pick up a bag of ice from the grocery. And so I know that it's not that.

You know? But But

I I love it because the what this does is it gives me confidence. Right? Like, I don't like, as a patient, like, I don't understand that I can go get a second opinion. But, like, hearing it, like, the you're what I'm hearing is, like, oh, you have permission to. Mhmm.

Right? Like, it may not be easy. Right. Right? We're not saying that it's gonna be easy, but you have permission.

You have permission to advocate for yourself. You have permission to go out and get that second opinion. You have permission that if if there is something that you want to address, bring it up, but bring it up with empathy. Bring it up with empathy for yourself, with empathy for your for your provider. Right?

And do it from a place of, like, deep care.

Yeah. That's that's what

this is. It's health care.

Yep. My goal is not to get someone in PrEP. You know? My goal is to, make it as easy as possible because I know it's difficult.

So I wanna ask both of you, one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners to feel more empowered and confident during their health care visits. Tim, we'll start with you.

I would encourage or invite people to get clear about what scares them. And this is work that you can do entirely on your own. You know, like in the circle, the Monday sharing circle. When we journal, I tell people this piece of paper is for you. No one's gonna see what you write down.

You can share any of that that you want. So in a safe space, get clear about what scares you, what you're frightened of, all of the different things that you are concerned about. So that you have greater clarity around what it is you're actually working with. Because I think, and I've seen a lot in men's work, sometimes you don't even know the depth of what you're holding or carrying. And then it can spill out in a way that it feels very overwhelming.

The more we can slowly uncover all these things that we're that we're working with, the more power we have then in making conscious choice around it. So, what are you, what frightens you or what are you scared of with regards in this case with regards to your to your own health? And what are you, what are you wanting? I think getting clear about what are you wanting. So in the coach training that I did, one of the most powerful questions you can ask somebody is what do you want?

And it seems really simple, right? This idea of, well what do I want?

But

you have to think about it. What what do I want? And so with with my healthcare, what what do I want? And I would encourage every person to really sit with it instead of like, I want I want a healthy heart or I want to lose weight. That might be right, but really think about it.

What, what do I want? I, do I want to, do I want to be able to pick up my grandchildren? A lot of people, that's their answer. I want to, I want to be able to garden because I love gardening, but now my knees hurt.

You

know, I want to be able to and then play pickleball or get back to tennis or into the swimming pool. And you start making decisions about, okay, well then what will it take? If you go in without a clear idea of what you want, then then it'll influence your questions and your conversation. So I think what are you afraid of? What are you concerned about?

And what do you want? And make it a personal exploration that that you can bring with you. That would be that would be my advice or invitation.

That's great advice because it even gets me thinking, like, if if I want, like, healthier needs because I love gardening, like, I might be afraid that, like, if I bring up something to the doctor that I might get a truth that is scary. That's like, oh, maybe I can't garden anymore.

I

have to figure out a different way to garden. Right. Right? So, like, yeah, that's really great advice of, like, just unpacking my own fears Mhmm. And what what my fears might be preventing me from bringing into the conversation.

If I could just, share a story because I just did a private, training slash yoga session with a client and this client has, hand wrist issues that makes things challenging and makes standard yoga as I tend to teach it to most people, challenging and like in need of a lot of modification. But then we were able to find it. So, so once you get clear about what you're working with, from that place you can start making choices about, well how can I approach this differently? And so I ended up giving him this version of my general warm up, like some spinal warm up of like cat cow and side bends and, you know, quadruped, sufi grind, blah, blah, blah, whatever. We were able to do it in a seated position that gave him all of the spinal mobility that he wanted without taxing his wrist.

And he was like, oh, I feel my core. So it's a good example of how empowering it was to recognize what is it you want and what is one of our challenges that we need to include in this view. Now I have to imagine that there are a lot of examples where it, the solution maybe isn't always so satisfying. So sure, that's a rosy picture. And I I wanna honor, you know, having had major health concerns of my own, like sometimes the answers aren't so rosy and we have to hold space for that too.

But it was through the knowledge of what they were working with and what they wanted that we were able to get somewhere of value to them. If if I could if I could somehow project into every listener's brain right now the smile on this person's face when they felt their spine opening up in a way that was not contributing to pain somewhere else, it was, like, worth every penny. So yes. Beautiful. Thank you for listening to that.

Thank you for sharing.

Oh, yeah. And it, it made me think of, like, you know, we all go into you know, so much of this has been has been about seeking health care, you know, and the things that we do. And I go, but I like, that's not my thing because I've reached a certain level of it and now that I'm an advocate. You know? It's not a scary place for me, but my scary place is the gym.

My scary place is going to things like that because I'm incredibly intimidated because of, you know, like, high school and all that kind of stuff that so when I think about going to the places here and especially when, you know, I'm a, like, that is so I'm probably getting sweaty right now just thinking about it. Probably not a good way. But that's incredibly intimidating to me, and I've done the years of, like, buying memberships, and then I go once, and then I'm like, I go I'm right back in high school. You know? And so, and and so thinking about what we discussed today, it makes me go, like, oh, I could you know, doing something beforehand of, like, going okay.

I'm just gonna, like, I'm gonna go in there. And and every time I've been there, people have been supportive and this and that. But still, in my mind, like, you know, someone says one thing that is like, I'm taking is, like, you're fat. Get out. You know?

And so, and it could be just like, hey. How are you today? You know? Like, oh, I haven't seen you in a while. Oh, okay.

Fine. I haven't been here. You know? Like and so, like, it I'm already dialed up to 9 when I go there. You know?

And so when someone says there, you know, like, I I've just lost a lot of weight with, you know, like, with the injections. And someone said, like, oh my god. You're just wasting away. And I heard, I'm wasting away because of AIDS. You know?

And so, like and they're just, like, going, like, oh, you're getting thin. And, like and so I had to sit there for a few minutes and go, I am 99.999% sure that they were not saying that I look sick. You know? And so but I had to talk myself out of that, and I had to spend a minute with it and dial it back and go, like, oh, it's okay. You know?

Like

How much empathy can you bring to yourself

to not

take things personally?

Right. You know? And so it Right.

So that you can go into a situation with that is in service of your best self. Right. Right? And to take care of something that you really want to Tim's point of, like, identifying what am I afraid of, what am I scared of right now, and what am I needing Mhmm. And or wanting.

Right? And, like, how do I work with both of those things? Mhmm. Yep. Alright, Jeff.

One piece of advice you would give to a queer man looking to feel more empowered and confident during health care visits.

I would just say realize that everyone there is human as well. And so what we talked about with, you know, like, if the front desk person is not great, if the, you know, the MA or the nurse or the doctor is not great. You know? Like, and it's not the it's not easy to do. You know?

But I think to have that somewhere in your mind of, like you know, I think about the same thing when I wait on tables, you know, because I still work in restaurant where I go, like, I don't know this person's history. And if they come in and they're being a jerk right from the point I am pretty sure that they're not standing outside the restaurant going, I'm gonna go in there and ruin. You know? Like like, we all have lives. We all got this.

So whatever is affecting them is affecting how they're treating me in this moment. You know? And so and and they might just be an asshole. But but the but, you know, I'm not gonna jump to that as number 1 because I think that's oh, because you guys talked about story and intention. Right?

I I listened to that. And so, like, I'm instantly going to the story and not, you know, like, oh, like and now when I so I try to take that. And so I think as a patient, when I do that too, I go like, oh, this person might might might not be giving me what I need, and I need to not take it as that person is not giving it to me. They're not the gatekeeper. They're one of many gatekeepers.

And, you know, and so, like, to be tenacious and be assertive and, and to get the health care you need, regardless of what, that is and to give feedback. You know? And so I think it is important to if you feel like it's important to give feedback, then it's important to give feedback. You know? Because, that will help.

And so I think, really, these people are human human. They have all different experiences and, as well as we do.

We are humans, you know, and we're having human experiences as as Tim has love and, like, beautifully said in the past. Like, this this is shared human experience and the more curiosity and empathy that we can bring to these types of experience, the more care that we can give to ourselves, we can give to others and understanding. So this episode, I think we covered a lot of ground when it comes to, showing up for yourself, showing up for others, how to, you know, tap into your authenticity to find the courage and the confidence to come into these conversations and reveal as much as is needed to in order to get the health care that you are needing. So with that, I'm feeling very complete. How about you all?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm feeling very complete, so let's take a moment to close our eyes. Take a deep inhale through the nose, gentle exhale through the mouth. And as we leave this sacred circle and conversation, I wish us all health, courage, community, support, love, and with these words are containers open, but not broken.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.