From Superheroes to Real-World Heroes: Phil Jimenez on Men’s Work and Authentic Heroism

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to the circle. Today, we're joined by Eisner and Inkpa award winning writer and artist Phil Jimenez, an icon whose work on Wonder Woman, Infinite Crisis, and more has shaped how we see superheroes today. As one of comics most prominent queer creators, his legacy extends beyond the page, inspiring generations of fans to step into their own heroic potential. Phil is also a regular at the men's embodiment circle here in Provincetown.

So we'll explore how men's work can help everyday men step into their own heroic potential to face fears, embrace vulnerability, and find authentic strength off the panel and into real life. Phil, Tim, are you ready to go all in?

I am. I am.

Let's do this.

Yeah. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Thank you.

Here we go.

So, Phil, you're known for illustrating some of the world's most iconic heroes. Could you share how your early fascination with superheroes influenced your artistic path and shaped your own understanding of heroism?

I

was an only child of a single parent, a latchkey kid. So, I was by myself a lot growing up and from a very young age. And one of the things I did to entertain myself was draw. And one of the things I did, a lot, because I was a TV kid I was a kid, again, because I was by myself. I watched a lot of TV, blah blah blah.

And, it was fascinating because it didn't matter what was on the television. If it was a documentary, if it was a sitcom, if it was a soap opera, but particularly cartoons, which were my favorite, I would recreate them, with the reams of paper that my mother would bring home from her office, panel by panel, scene by scene, almost storyboarding the episodes that I'd watched the night before, the the day before, whenever I consumed, the episode. And it really taught me about storytelling, taught me about narrative, and it developed a real love for long form. But more than anything, it developed a real love for a cliffhanger, which is my favorite part of what I do, and it's really my favorite part of, narrative generally is the what happens next component of storytelling. So that actually really impacted, the my choice of art making because I chose to dive into storyboards, comics, anything that had, anything beyond single, illustration, single image narrative, I wanted to tell a long story, and I wanted to tell a story that was perpetual, that never really had an end, but somehow always gripped people, again, with a cliffhanger to make them come back for more.

The the thing jumping out to me is this idea is you as a young kid, watching an episode and in the story you just told, like, watching it at night and remembering it and then recreating it in the morning and storyboarding it. I'm curious to know, are you are you connected to the thing about those stories that made you remember them? The thing about them that stuck with you through the night and maybe through your morning and through school, and and and landed with you so intensely that you're like, I have to recreate this because I feel like that is the essence of something about your passion.

Yes. So, of course, I was a, a queer kid, a gay kid, probably without even having language for that without really even knowing what that meant. But knowing at a very early age, 3 or 4, that I was different from other children, and probably even sensing empathically that my mother was concerned about something. Mhmm. And my mother was actually a really loving and compassionate woman.

There was not a, there was no real attempt to convert me in any way or sort of alter my behavior, but I knew that I was different. And so the the material that I was most drawn to, was fantastical, otherworldly. It was, it was beyond, I like to say, the mundane world that I lived in. And so that was that was the material I was most drawn to, and that was the material I chose to replicate. So anything with, larger than life characters, anything, with, grand or epic locations, things that queered the world that I was in, and it it should be said when I I when I talk on panels, or when I write academic papers, I use the word queer in its broadest sense, which basically means anti traditional, anti patriarchal, sort of defiant of norms, as well as sort of, when we talk about sexual orientation or gender expression.

So anything that cleared the very mundane little world that I was in, that's what I was drawn to. And so, again, superheroes, dinosaurs, dragons, soap opera characters, Saturday morning cartoons, even I always like to say, like, Carl Sagan's Cosmos. Right? Which was all about the universe. Like, because it was just so much bigger, than the world I lived in, and because I knew it was different, I had a drive to escape the world that I was from and find a world that was big enough essentially to handle me.

So what I'm hearing you say is, like, this idea of differences and, you know, it it isn't a new idea that queer people are often drawn to superheroes because they have that shared thing. And you and I have talked about the, you know, full disclosure for the people listening, like Phil and I are very close friends. We've talked about this a lot. You know who my favorite characters are. And, I think that when we think about the differences in superheroes, one of the easiest things for us to think about are their superpowers, like the things that make them strong.

And I think queer people, I'll speak for myself. Oh, moments when I felt weak or alone and wished I could fly away or wished I could guarantee my protection because I was invincible or invisible or so strong you would, you know. But I am curious about, the other parts of superheroes that make them different too and how that has landed with you. The parts that aren't necessarily their super ability, but the vulnerability that comes along with it or the I don't I don't like to use the word vulnerability there because I think vulnerability is a strength. But, like Rogue as an example is one of my favorites.

Mhmm. And her incredible capacity also comes with a cost a cost and a challenge. Thank you. Could you speak to that a little bit?

There are 2, 3 things that come to mind, about, I think, the relevance of superheroes, to queer people and why we connect with them so often. One is and I've said this many, many times, I still think it's true, that superheroes are essentially drag queens and vice versa. You have said that. Right.

Right. And I and I love that. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And and the biggest idea being that, again, a a normal I'm gonna use the word mundane a lot, I expect, but, but a perfectly normal person can, put on a new uniform, take on a new name, and becomes the person that they really are inside or take on another persona that has much greater strength and presence in the world than they might, in their, again, normal mundane, body. I just like to say that yeah. You know, drag queens, again, they put on a costume. They have a code name. They're superheroes.

They become larger than life figures, with powers that we can't even imagine. You know, most of them, the powers are to entertain, but certainly sometimes to enlighten. And I think that's what superheroes do as well. Right? So so many of our favorite superheroes, Spider Man's a a perfect example.

Peter Parker is just this kid from Queens, right, who ends up with this extraordinary ability, and is out there fighting, his greatest arch enemies every day while still trying to get through high school and take care of his, elderly aunt. And I think a lot of people, particularly a lot of queer people, can relate to this idea. Mhmm.

And

I think they long I think this is still true. I I I feel like I'm talking from a particular, I don't know, point of view in an age, And I I wonder about queer kids in 2024, 2025, like, what it's gonna be like for them, because I do think there's sort of greater visibility and a greater capacity to express. But I really think that that is the the power of superheroes is their transformative quality. Mhmm. You start in a kind of a small version of yourself, and then you transform and you come this really grand version of yourself that no one can believe, and that is capable of great and wonderful things.

So I don't wanna jump ahead and so I'm gonna pass it back to you in a second. But you it feels like you're alluding to this idea that we, people in this world right now can choose to step into some things. And there's this, there's this book called Presence where they they practice the Wonder Woman stance. Have you heard of this? Right?

And like before a meeting, you can get into this, like spread your feet shoulder with distance, put your hands on your hips, like puff your chest, like, you know, and the and the effect that it has. When you're talking about drag queens, I feel like the same thing. And I'm thinking about, you know, my friend Johnny known as, Delta Miles here in town who steps into their persona and then creates magic. Magic that isn't just entertaining. Sometimes it is very enlightening.

Sometimes it is very, like, illuminating. Mhmm. And the last show that they did, really focused on that sort of self reflection and, you know, personal growth. So it does sound to me like, a thing that people can choose if they're aware of it to be like, oh, I can choose to step into a sense of myself in any given moment, you know, when I'm about to start a meeting or run a men's circle or start a performance or do a podcast or whatever the thing might be. And I think there's real power in that.

Did I hear you correctly?

You did. It's funny. I know all about the Wonder Woman stance. They, talk about it a lot. I think they actually teach it, in in sort of corporate environments as well.

Yeah. But the actually, the thing I think is really important from Wonder Woman, particularly the Lynda Carter TV show, is not the stance. It's the transformation. The thing I would encourage people to do is spin as she did. I know it sounds really absurd because I actually Well,

I do it for fun.

I mean, I do I do too. But, like, there's nothing I love more, in a gay bar than, watching, like, you know, a Spice Together, kind of YouTube video of, like, all of Linda Carter spins from the 3 seasons of the Warner World TV show. And, crowds cheer. The gaze of a certain age love it. But I think what what's really fantastic about it, I think what they're responding to is the trans the transformation itself.

Right? You she's in her street clothes. She spins. There's this flash of light, and suddenly she's Wonder Woman, and then she spins again, and then she's Wonder Woman with a diving suit or Wonder Woman in her motorcycle costume, whatever it is. I really think that what people deep down are connecting to is the transformative quality of her.

I couldn't agree with you more. I think this is why we love it when drag queens do reveals. I think it is an example in so many different ways of our capacity to be more than one thing. Yes. And, like, right.

I think that's the human experience. Like, we are capable of being many things. And when we see it represented, you're like, oh, what if I could just spin around and be that? Well, you can. You can.

You can. You totally can. And so can I and what we need, and if we bring it back to men's work, or just human work is we need we need our friends and our loved ones to remind us, you know, you need to spin and turn into this right now? This is like the archetype or the or the thing that's gonna serve you in this moment, and we then we practice doing that. So, Yeah.

I mean, I'm just thinking, like, as a a young kid, like, thinking about how I expressed myself. I went through my goth phase, then I went through my super colorful phase. And, like, the what I wore, what I put on in the morning was my armor. Right? It was my costume.

And so I would, like, put this on and it would, like, reshape how I would approach my high school environment. And it really, like, sent a signal to my own brain and to the world, like, this is who I am today. Right? And so, like, I do that even today. Like, if I'm going out for my motorcycle ride and I've got my leather chaps on and my my leather jacket, Like, I feel like a badass.

And if I take a walk through town, like, there's a certain strut that comes from it. And, like, I know that that is always within me. That potential is always inside of me, but there's something about the transformation of doing the spin of, like, putting on the costume that really unlocks it in me.

And it's a feeling. So I'm gonna tell a quick story where I was, one of my, boyfriends who I still adore, his name is Joe Lupo. He is cofounder of Visual Therapy. So if you're looking for fashion or interior design in New York City, you should absolutely look him up. For the 2 years that he and I dated, I never thought fashion mattered and I was like I was like, whatever.

And, and he obviously thought it did matter and so I would just let him dress me. And also because I was a dancer, used to having, like, a wardrobe stuff, I'd be like, lay it out. I'll put it on. And I always looked great. Anyway, the story I wanna tell is he bought me this coat, and I was in Chicago doing the the out of town tryout of the pirate queen, and I wore the coat.

I had been wearing this coat every day for probably 2 months. But then one day he had come into town and I was going to this book signing, event. And so I put on the rest of the outfit and I could feel myself walking differently and, like, carrying myself differently. And I walked into the theater down the same stairs through, like, you know, the whole thing. Everything was the same.

And people were like, oh my god, Tim. I love your new coat. I love your new coat. You look so good in your new coat. I remember thinking, I've been wearing this coat for 2 months.

Like, what is different? What's different is not the coat. What's different is me. And then starting to realize the power that came from the fashion as a choice and and then really the feeling. Oh, when I put all this stuff on, I felt differently.

Therefore, I walked differently. Therefore, I was seen differently. And that was the moment when I'm like, oh, there is power here. Yes. There's real power here.

There's the the RuPaul quote, like, we're all born naked and the rest is drag. I firmly believe that. I've had some really interesting conversations, primarily with lesbian comic book fans about, superhero costumes, and particularly female costumes, which tend to be hypersexualized. But I'm as I'm looking at my boot, the other thing we talk about is heels. And I know I am my most transformed, not if I'm wearing leather, not if I'm wearing a bathing suit, not if I'm wearing a hot jockstrap.

It's if I'm wearing a heel on a boot. Mhmm. Because I'm taller. I'm not a tall guy, and so it makes me stand differently. I feel differently.

Even the click of the boot on the on the ground, it's transformative for me. And so I always joke that my my favorite comic book character, whenever she's not in heels, she's wrong. Like, you have drawn her incorrectly.

She must

wear heels.

There's something about that. Like, I'm I'm very similar. Like, I love a good boot with a heel. Yeah. So when we go line dancing, Wednesday nights with Francis Mhmm.

I love to wear At

the Gifford House.

At the Gifford House. I I love to wear my my my boots with a heel. And what it does is it actually keeps me more present and grounded. Mhmm. I don't know what about it.

Like, just, like, turns my brain on. And something you had mentioned earlier is the power of strength and presence that can come from the costume. And so, like, that for me, that's part of what it is. It does it, like, it gets me out of the judging, comparing, like, self sabotage mode and into this present moment of, like and it could be the click of the heel that just keeps me there. It could be how I'm feeling.

I don't know exactly what it is, but it does keep me more present. And I think that when we think about men's work, like, that's a big component of it.

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna pass it back to you for next question. But I do wanna just, like, draw our attention to how many times in the movies, maybe, like, maybe specifically in, like, eighties, early nineties movies where we have that moment where whether it's like we have a view of the floor or the ceiling or maybe it's like a blackout into a fade in where all we hear are the clicking of the shoes and we immediately know, oh, these are like, we know what character we're about to see. And I'm thinking now of, like, secret of my success or something. We're like, oh, these are the what they called the suits, the executives, the CEOs, whatever. But, like, the and those characters presented in a very particular way, and there was that thing about it.

There's a presence.

Yeah. And I and I feel it too. Like, anytime I have, like, anytime there's a click to my shoe, which there almost never is because I'm always athletic shoes are barefoot. Right? Like, the fitness and yoga.

So for me, it's even more because I'm like, oh, I can even like the hardness of a shoe when I'm wearing, like, you know. And then, you know, just in case people aren't sure about this, I was a former professional dancer and I can rock

A what?

I can rock a pair of heels pretty hardcore. Pretty hardcore. So, like, there are there are there are videos out there if you want proof.

I just wanted to, to jump in really quickly, just on as we sort of, I think, wrap this topic or or move on to something. I remember the first time god, this would've been 20 years ago, 18. Oh my god. It was 20 years ago. I was in West Hollywood.

I went into, like, a gay store, and I had them dress me. I had a budget at the time. I'd made some money off some project, and I was just and I wanted I wanted someone else to choose my clothes, because I I felt like I was making bored choices, and it was amazing. Not only were they thrilled out of their minds, I think because they were probably bored in the store, and they were hard selling me. Yeah.

But but I found they put me in things I would never have chosen to wear because I was so conservative. Right? And so I going I know it sounds really, really funny, but, bringing this back to men's work and sort of men's growth, men's transformation, I know a lot of men, particularly my age and older, who I don't think would ever do that. I feel like I just had a conversation with someone who's never been dressed by anyone, and I just wanna say, like, go do it. Aside from the fact that it's really fun, there's no actual obligation to buy anything.

Mhmm. It is amazing, to experience something like clothing, which, again, has this incredible transformational quality, on your body or, through the eyes of someone else. Someone's like, you will look great in this. No. No.

No. I won't. You will look great in this. Trusting that they are correct

Mhmm.

And then allowing, you know, allowing yourself to put it on. I was transformed after that. It was it was really amazing, and it was I think of it as a sort of a pivotal moment in my thirties, sort of a growth moment. And I don't know. I I would just encourage so many men who don't take care of themselves in the way they should or who are looking to transform physically.

Mhmm.

I know it sounds really absurd and highly superficial, but I'm, like, go let someone address you.

No. No. No. I, so, I wanted, like, highlight this because I think this is part of the messaging that we receive. Like, there are things this is messaging I received.

There are things that men are supposed to do and things that men are not supposed to do. And I think that's partly why I was always like, well, fashion doesn't really matter. And so I think the invitation, if I'm hearing you correctly, is there could potentially be a deep somatic, emotional, intellectual experience available to you in things if you are willing to make yourself available to it. And this is when we think about men's work and in men's embodiment circles. A lot of what we're doing is that.

Right? We're we're putting ourselves in situations where we are being challenged. So for example, if there were a man who was gonna do what you just described, and I absolutely agree they should do it. I have done it. Right?

There's probably gonna be an edge there to be like, oh shit. Like, well, what does this mean? And, but, but as we described earlier, if you can allow yourself to do it, what if you feel different? What what if you feel more powerful? What if you feel more confident, more capable?

And what if that starts rippling? Well, the truth is we already know if you're feeling it, there will be a ripple. So we we're not really asking that question. But like, so how might that influence you and your life? And so this is why RuPaul, we keep going back to RuPaul and drag queens and, he said, you wanna be successful, wear a suit.

I don't think he says that because suits are inherently like more attractive than other things. I think it's because I'm making a conscious choice in how I present myself. And in that conscious choice will come a feeling that is undeniable sort of energetically and that feels powerful.

It unlocks a strength. Sometimes our our external, like, how we present ourselves externally will unlock something within us.

Mhmm.

And something that I heard within the cons the the the examples of, like, having somebody dress you is this idea of, like, being vulnerable, like, being exposed and and admitting that, hey. I might need a little bit of help and and and, vulnerably, standing up for that. And so I'm curious now, like, we've talked a lot about, like, superheroes and the the external armor, the external, uniform, as part of their strength. Like, what are some of the other characteristics of superheroes that you find, you know, really interesting?

Pardon me. So I was doing a little bit of research about heroism today because for 35 years, professionally, and then probably for much longer, I've been working with characters, you know, on a team called the Justice League. I've been working with characters who are called superheroes, and so, I don't think there's anyone in my business, certainly my peers, that don't contemplate the very notion of heroism, of of justice, of fairness. Like, these are these are ideas that we grapple with all the time, in the hopes of telling stories that, that ask our readers to do the same. And so when I was, thinking about today, I wanted to go see, I was looking up Joseph Campbell's definition of heroism.

Joseph Campbell, of course, is the the really famous, mythology expert, and he said, a hero is someone who has devoted their life to something greater than themselves.

Well, can you just say that one more time? Because that feels really beautiful. And let's all just, like, let that sink in here. So he said again, tell us Yeah.

So Joseph Campbell, you know, this expert on world mythology, kind of personal hero of mine, described a hero as someone who has devoted their life to something greater than themselves.

Someone who has devoted their life to something greater than themselves.

Sounds a whole lot like purpose.

It does. Although, that's the other there's something else, another definition that came up from a a writer that I worked with many many years ago, and we were we were talking about the hard choices that some heroes have to make, particularly in fiction, but also, in real life, and, it struck me it stuck with me for 20 years. She said that heroes will often make the pragmatic choice, the practical choice, especially in a no win situation. They'll make the choice that I I it's it's it's a question I really hate, because of the the the weight's whittled down, but they'll do the thing that has to be done.

Yeah. What's the the yoga principle of of do the least amount of harm?

So the the Ahimsa cause least amount amount of harm possible whenever possible. Right.

But I think part of in in this discussion, I think part of it in doing the practical thing was exactly that, doing least amount of harm, but also without consideration to one's own reputation. Right? Because sometimes a hero is faced with 2 known situations, and they just have to choose the one that, again, will do least harm.

Well, we saw this at the end of the the second Batman movie. The one with, Heath Ledger as the Joker and, where the Batman character had to decide, like, even though, who was the actor who played 2 face? Even though, like, he was playing Harvey Dent. He was like a good guy the whole he was the white knight for the whole movie until the end when he kind of crumbled and he had to forego his own reputation and allow himself to be the villain in order for the greater good to happen. And I remember thinking like, that's a really big sacrifice because now you're just gonna have headlines over and over about what a terrible awful person you are when in reality, you were doing what you could to stand up.

And the only way that that works in that in that story in particular is if no one ever knows. Mhmm. The only way you actually keep going as the hero is if everyone thinks you're the villain. Wow. Can you imagine sitting with that?

I think about that all the time. I think about no. I do because I think about, choice making, over the past decades, and sometimes really bad choices I've made with friends and loved ones, out of, you know, anger, resentment, whatever, or just this sort of callous lack of care. And, like decidedly anti heroic behavior. And then, you know, the fixing of it is comes with maybe not getting credit for it.

Right? Like and that's really important. Right? It's, like, they don't need to know I fixed it. They don't need to know.

Like, as long as it's better, that's what matters.

Yeah.

And I think that's really, really hard. I know it's certainly hard for me. I think it's hard for a lot

of people. The practice of doing things out of devotion rather than out of ego is is major. Right? Like, you know, if you can, you know, do something without expectation of the like, of receiving praise or anything else is, like, a practice in itself. Right?

I do this with, like, gift giving a lot of the times. Like, I really have to, like, like, when I'm giving something or doing something for somebody, sometimes I have to have a little bit of, like, a pep talk with myself where I have to say, like, I am doing this just to be of service to somebody of just doing it out of devotion, and I am and I'm releasing myself now and releasing this other person of any expectation. So if I give them something, I have no expectations that they're gonna give in return. I just want to be of service and deuce at a devotional act and that's that.

There's a practice in the men's workspace that I've done many times and have witnessed many times, and it has that quality to it where there are times at the end of this practice where you will choose to outreach and like connect to make amends. But there are times when with conscious thoughtful, you know, consideration, you recognize that isn't in the greatest service and therefore you still do the work that you need to do. And then you don't you don't reach out to that person or say it in a particular way because the intention is to be of the greatest good rather than potentially cause more harm. So one of those examples, and this is really tricky, you go through a tricky moment with someone, I want to make amends or I wanna like get some clarity or closure or whatever. But if I do not think you are capable of hearing it, and if if in hearing it you get more flared up or or whatever, then I have to then I have to let that not happen because then it would just be for me and that's built in and it feels a little bit like that hero's choice of, well, no matter how good it would feel for me to make sure that I had said my whole piece or that people understood me or they saw me in a certain way, it's like I might have to do the work and then let you see me however you wanna see

me.

And and then also, like, let's not argue with the idea that, like, that could still be really uncomfortable and be like, sure. Like, it it's so good that you've done the work and then you're also allowed to be like, oh. Right. That's feel like that that feels a certain way and, like, and it's so it's okay that if and, like, then then men's work, do you have a space to be, like, hey, I did this stuff and I still feel misunderstood. And you can just sort of, like, be, like, yeah, brother.

I've been there too. I I

think the interesting thing I would say actually about, heroism, both real and fictional, but also men's work and their link is this I think when we talk about heroes, or we even talk about men, I think sometimes we forget that we're talking about human beings. Right? Fictional or otherwise. Mhmm. And that, human beings are, the the width and breadth of emotions that is available to us at any given moment is wide and vast, and that, we're gonna have lots and lots of contradictory thoughts and feelings.

And so even when we're doing, navigating the world with best intention, doing our best, there's gonna be some times it's gonna feel really shitty. And that's just part of life. And there will be other times that, you know, we will be rewarded in the most grand way, and that that's also part of life. But I, I think one of my experiences, and I think a a bit of reticence I've always had towards men's work, and particularly the sorts of deep practices, is a sense, and I think it was not real, it was not fair, that we had to leave our humanity aside. Right?

That that we would go through this work and that the the goal was to somehow, I don't know if shunt is the right word, but place these very human and, I think, really important, emotional experiences somewhere.

Mhmm.

Like, that if we are if we do the men's work, if we do the work, quote unquote, we won't have those feelings anymore.

And

and I, you know, and it it it felt to me like the expectation was very high. Right? That to to navigate the world that we live in, and I I do like to sort of ground us in this the end of the world of United States of 2024, that that to that to do to to do that work and then not have space to sometimes feel, ways that we we wouldn't expect because of the work. Mhmm. Could

I ask a question?

Yeah. What I'm curious, like, what are some of those feelings or emotions that you're referring to that you you thought that, like, we're gonna bring them in here as a way to, like, kinda release them and not is it things like anger and, like No.

It's sort of what something that you said was, like, ego.

Okay.

Right? Like, or, just going back to the idea of, well, I'll just use an example because it actually happened to me. Like, I don't tend to get I love gift giving. It's it's definitely a love language, but, I don't I don't think I expect anything back. It's just never it's never my thought process.

I'm gonna do all this for you, and then I'm gonna get something. I just do it because it makes me happy. But I was talking to someone who does do things and then gets really upset when there's no thank you card in the mail. Like, it was and part of that is because in his head, it's the polite thing to do. I don't think it's necessarily because, it's a tit for tat.

I think it's sort of an expectation that in this world, we we all engage with each other. So if I've done something, a kind thing to do is is to acknowledge that. And I don't even expect that. People will acknowledge or they won't.

So I heard you say, like, one of your, like, concerns or misgivings about men's work. And so I wanna just clarify that, like, the way that I define men's work and the way that we've defined the men's work is that it is exactly that. It is human work. It is meant to be human work and it's done in a context where, humans with a shared cultural expectation and pressure come to do that work. So so the way that I sort of envision it is that we we take any struggles that we have with accessing our emotions or expressing our emotions or experiencing our ego or wrestling with our ego.

Like, we take all of those things and we bring them into the space, work with them, look at them from different angles, sort of push them and and examine them so that we might then take that into the world. The idea being that, like, sort of like a a full throated honoring of, like, what it means to be a human being, which to me means you do have an ego and you do have emotions and you do get tired and sometimes you're like fucking like a game and sometimes you're not, you know. And and creating tools and and and a framework in which we can be like, okay, well how can I bring my full self and engage in that way? And I think most powerfully, especially in those moments, like do I have the capacity to tell you I can't do anymore? Which I think men struggle with.

And and then if we idolize superheroes, we might think like, oh, like, I'm supposed to be like this sort of invincible thing but, like, can I use my superpower to tell you, like, I'm at my limit and I need this conversation to continue tomorrow or I don't know if I'm gonna, like, handle it gracefully or so so to me, I I'm curious about what you said because I think part of what we're trying to do is not deny our ego, but to like or our fear or any of these other things we've talked about, but instead be like, how can I have an experience of you without letting you take full control, without letting you be the full driver of my car? And that, you know, in my experience is a slow like like, as I've been doing the work, I I feel like I've gained, like, a little bit more and more control, you know, and like more capacity. And I think that's what, like, men are looking for. And then we have to consider the context in which so, like, I've gained some and then if you give me 2 times more than I can handle, then I might start to crumble again.

So like this sort of evolution of awareness and capacity.

2 quick stories. I so one sort of response to that, and I think, again, I think I had this, probably unfair idea of what men's work was, and even therapy. And I think part of it is because, as you well know, my emotions are highly accessible to me.

It is so beautiful, though. It's like really lovely.

But, and so and sometimes that also means anger and sadness. It's usually joy. I'd like to believe that, but often, other emotions as well. And so I'm constantly bombarded, I would say primarily with social media, but also in other spaces with what I feel is like a very male idea about emotion, which is, you know, we don't always have to react to our emotions, you know, it it it seems to place, rational intellectual thoughts on the top of the mind pyramid.

Which happens a lot.

Yes. Yeah. And I I have very mixed feelings about this. And part of it is historical, part of it's cultural. But I and I absolutely understand we don't wanna navigate the world, like, in a constant state of emotional frenzy, like, that does us no good.

But this sort of need to constantly rationalize our feelings and and and, again, compartmentalize and replace them below, again, what what many would argue is rational thought. I find I find I don't trust that. An example being, in a heated I'm gonna say political situation, and people are saying, like, calm down. We just need to sort of talk with each other. Like, we have to be able to communicate.

When that situation like, heated rhetoric might be the perfectly rational response to whatever the thing is. I think a lot a lot about this, not to make this, too heavy, but, like, acts of political or racial violence. Right? And, when communities are told they need to sort of calm down or sort of wind their emotions down, etcetera, I'm like, no. That anger or that sadness and those outbursts of that are perfectly rational responses to something that's really, really terrible.

And they are told constantly to tamp them down because they are out of control, because they don't have, because their their emotions have overtaken their rational mind or their rational thought. And so I think in my head, my my again, I keep using the word reticence. I don't know if it's quite distressed of this kind of work Mhmm. Has been this feeling of, like, well, I don't I don't wanna tamp down certain feelings because I think they're important responses.

Well, it's the I believe that this work is the antidote to what you're to what you're saying. It it is the the full embrace of the experience. So one of the things we say, like, the elevator speech for men's work is to help men get out of their heads and into their bodies. The way that I visualize this though, I think about all these energy centers of the head, the heart, the gut, the primal, and, like, bringing them all together and work together to then make conscious choices. And we've seen so many gurus and important people who were like, anger is a powerful motivator when applied consciously.

I believe men's work is the the our moment's response to, well, how can I how can I learn to recognize that feeling, learn to work with that feeling, and then learn to make conscious choices in the experience of that feeling in pursuit of, like, my highest good, my purpose, my integrity, my mission, and use it? I think it was Gandhi who was like like used anger to be like, I'm gonna create change. Anger not into rage, but anger into action, into purpose, into into compassion. And so that is how I envision and why I love and clearly as I'm talking now, like passionate about men's work because it's like, no. It's not about shutting anything down.

It's about bringing everything online. In our world right now, men are congratulated and rewarded for being completely in their head. And I tell people, we don't want not head. Right? We don't want not that energy.

We just want that energy in conjunction with all of this other primal stuff, heart, gut, primal, all working together. And when we see men who walk into a room with that, they are powerful.

There's a balance. Right? There is a benefit of of being able to, tap into and allow the emotions to arise and not suppress emotions. And then there is the, like, bringing on the brain, right, to say, like, okay. Emotion is arising.

Right? Like, now I'm gonna process a little bit. Right? And start to, like, feel into it because it's, like, there are beneficial times where, like, I do want to, like, be able to have my emotions kind of take over so I can figure out, like, what's alive inside of me while also not allowing them to fully take over. Right?

Like, I think, like, if we bring this back to superheroes, sometimes there are catalysts that can bring people to the brink of doing something, damaging or harmful. Right? Because there is some sort of motivator or some sort of, like, thing.

The danger room.

What is it?

The danger room.

Yeah. What is that?

It's an opportunity. Like, it's a it's a simulation for the superheroes to be in situations without the consequence so they can practice

so they can An empowerment circle.

Yeah. So they're like, no. No. That's why that's why I brought it up. It's literally a safe container into which they could start to work with their powers, and recognize, like, when would they get hurt?

When would they hurt someone else? Like, what are the right choices? I mean, you could speak to the danger room probably more fully than I can, but it does feel like an embodiment circle.

Yeah. And I think that's that's what I'm I was getting at is that, like, I I I fully believe that, like, my emotions can and should be alive. But how can I use them without going into a full reaction?

When I was working on a book called Wonder Woman Historia, which is a a big retelling of Wonder Woman's origins and the origins of her people. It was written by a woman named Kelly Sudekonic, and who's just a brilliant, comic book and TV writer, and one of my favorite people. And we had really long conversations about the origins of the Amazon's, Wonder Woman's people, who were born, in the comics. The the basic origin story is that the Greek goddesses, 2000 years ago, created this tribe of warrior women to help counter, the crimes of men against women that were allowed, to continue, that were perpetuated by the male gods led by Zeus. And Kelly Sue reimagined them, in this new version, as a revenge force.

Like and we had really long conversations about righteous anger and vengeance, and they felt very different coming from her. I felt like I learned a lot more about her, her, particularly when she's talking about the Righteous Anger Women. And it made me completely reevaluate that emotion, which I've always had a really hard time with. And hilariously, and I I don't think I'm overstepping bounds, by saying her husband and son have very difficult time. They they don't know what to do with anger.

Meanwhile, she and her daughter love it. It's they thrive on it. They use it because they see it as righteous. And because usually what makes them angry is injustice. It's it's it's things that seem unfair to them.

Right? So it's not like the dishes aren't done. I'm outraged. It is that this terrible thing is happening in the world, and, nobody is doing anything about it or what is being done about seems unjust or unfair, and therefore, I'm angry. And it was so helpful to have that perspective.

And particularly, again, this story was really about, the the war between men and women, which is, you know, 1000 of years old, and the way women have been treated historically. And that and her her anger over that, was a was a driver for this incredibly beautiful story that was ultimately about transformation. That was about taking this tribe of women from anger into something else.

And I I love that because it really, like, highlights that, like, like, all emotions are valid. Right? These are valid emotions. But in your example that you talked about, like, there's there's, like, justified anger and then almost unjustified anger of, like, I'm so angry because the dishes aren't done. Right?

I'm in an emotional reaction and I might be projecting that onto somebody. Right? So that's where I think that there's a balance, right, of of of emotions where like, how do we, not get swept up into our emotions overpowering us? How do we tap into our own power though to kind of work with our emotions so that we can, you know, experience a a sink full of dishes that may, yes, validly cause a little bit of anger. But working with it so that I don't fly off the handle.

Right? And start yelling at my kids or my my my loved one for, like, not doing what I wanted them to do.

Can I just jump in and ask? Like, so would your would your capacity to work with expectations be one of your real world superpowers? I think the answer is clear to me. I know. It feels it feels like a yes to me.

Eric, what do you think?

That's what that's what I was trying to say. I was trying to, like, Phil, you've got a lot of superpowers over here. But, like, the detachment from expectations, I think, is a legit power.

It's a yogic practice, and they used to talk about the yogis as superheroes can like, attaining these abilities. And I think that's the takeaway for today's episode if we if we have any is that, it is it can be flashy to fly or to lift, you know, a truck over your head or whatever. But but some of these capacities if brought into our life can create the space into which we can bring love and joy and connection. And it sounds to me like when you're talking about expectations as an example, it's allowing you freedom and space into which you can make conscious choices. And even looking at your face, and obviously you and I are friends, we've talked about this many times.

I know that it is serving you. It is why you continue to practice it. How many other superpowers are there available to us that we just maybe don't think of in that way because it's not flashy?

Vulnerability, empathy, integrity Patience. Patience.

Clear communication. Presence.

Yeah. Well, I I would actually even go back to and, again, I'm gonna get teary, but I think about this all the time. When I say, like, exalt in joy, I mean it. I think a lot. We live in a really hard world.

Mhmm. And I, we live in a hard world, and but there are moments around us, at least in my life. There are people, moments, places, experiences that that provide me with joy every day. And to not recognize those actually feels like a crime if we're talking about heroes and villains. Right?

To not recognize, these the extraordinary opportunities that have been presented to me, the extraordinary men that I have met in my life, particularly here, the the kind of crazy, career that I have, which I worked for, it was handed to me. But, you know, I worked really hard for it, but still, there are 1,000,000 people. I would say that there are 8,000,000,000 people on the planet, yet somehow I'm one of the few lucky ones who gets to tell stories for a living. Like, I got to live my dream.

Like,

so few people get that opportunity. And so it again, it feels like a crime. It feels like, an injustice not to practice, joy with intent every day.

So that is and maybe this is where we wrap up. This is like such a fundamental yoga teaching. The teaching of yoga as I understand it through my teachers was this pursuit and this understanding that available to all of us is limitless, boundless joy, Limitless, boundless joy. That's what my teachers and the teachings would speak about. It wasn't it wasn't occasional bursts of pleasure or, you know, it was limitless, boundless joy.

But in there was a practice of it's what you're saying, like, practicing that joy, practicing the recognition of the joy, the appreciation of the joy, the cultivation of the joy, and and I would have to imagine, like, much sharing of the joy. Right? And so it feels like you're giving like a deep yogic teaching about this idea of joy as a fundamental ingredient in any of our personal growth and spiritual path because, it isn't just the reward. The Yogi's argue it is part of the path to that reward. And so, you know, I say this a lot, in yoga classes, like one of the few sutras in Patanjali's yoga sutra is about the practice of asana is sthira sukhamasanam.

Our connection to the earth should be steady and joyful. And so I tell people because, you know, the people get into like serious yoga phase, Like, you know, you know, I'll be like I'll be like, you guys were allowed were allowed to have fun. We're allowed to play. Like, if you've, one of the rules I have in my yoga classes is if you fall, you have to smile or laugh because I'm like, yeah. You're doing airplane pose.

I laugh

a lot.

Yeah. Warrior 3. Like like and but I but I think like so it can seem fun and playful and light and accepting. It is also, as you just beautifully stated, deep and profound. And be like, that's that's the essence of what it is we're doing.

And so it sounds like what you're doing is deeply appreciating and savoring those moments. And for that reason, I've always, I've never said this to you, but I've always thought of you as a teacher to me in some ways because of how you navigate this world and how emotionally and open and joyfully you seem to do it and how much I want to be able to, to do even half of what you seem to be able to do in that way. To bring half the amount of heart you bring or to, to taste and savor half the amount of joy you seem to be able to do. So thank you for teaching me. Thank you for leading by example.

I think it is one of the most important and powerful teachings of yoga. And I think it's also one that we don't talk about enough because we think it has to be hard work. Right. It's gotta it's gotta look serious, you know, even if you're on the mountain top, you gotta have the right robes on. Mhmm.

And, you know, and it's like or or maybe I could just be really really delighted right now.

One thing that I do owe in terms of lineage is I was really, really lucky to have met several straight men at really important integral times, of my youth who who chose to protect and mentor me. The head of my department who was amazing and so hard on me. He was so hard, because he knew that I could do it with the right push, and that I'd never been pushed before in a way that I needed to be. He knew that if pushed properly, I could become anything I wanted. And that's a sort of energy.

So when I teach, I teach with the energy of those men.

Mhmm.

Very, very specifically, because I want others to feel the way I did. It's why I'm not afraid to push. Even now when, universities tell us don't push because the students are so fragile, and like trust me, they will appreciate this so much more than if we don't. But again, it's just going back to the conversation of lineage. These men, if they knew it or not, changed my life.

Well, you're you're talking about, these sort of male mentor figures sometimes referred to as the father figure, although that father figure could be your father.

Absolutely. But it

could also be these teachers or coaches or or whatever. And I think what you're talking about is there is a need for more of that across the board. Like all men need strong mentors in these figures to help them. And in men's work, we often say steel, sharpened steel. We need each other as like and it can come in really sharp if it comes in with heart.

So we go back to the like it can't just be sharp. It has to be sharp and heartful, and the power that that has. And then I think what you're also talking about is if it was not available or not as available as it needed to be for men in general, how was it available for queer men? And you know, my own experience, most of my protection and mentorship came from women. I did not have a lot of men, stepping up and protecting me.

And I probably would have benefited if I had had that. So yes, I think honoring, honoring any person who was able to like look past any particular label or thing and just see a human being with potential. And then, you know, what you said that I really responded to was like that that pushing and that sharpness. Like, I remember there were some of these ballet teachers and they loved me, but they were fucking intense. I remember Jolinda.

She was, like, so I loved her so much. If she's if she's listening, like, you were incredible. Thank you. Where she would be like, bend your plie more, jump higher, plie more jump. But what it created was I remember the moment when she was like, alright, class, everyone stop.

We're gonna watch Tim do this because he's doing it correctly. I did not get a ribbon. I did not get a certificate. I did not get a bonus or a Starbucks card. I didn't get anything.

I walked out of that room on cloud what is beyond 9. Like, I was fucking floating because I'm like, I knew that satisfying this person who had a high standard and who wanted me to be my best, there was there was nothing better than that. And I feel like that's what I'm hearing with you too. And and that's what I want. Like, I think that's what men's work space is now trying to create, places where we can have mentorship, whether it's from an older man or from colleagues so that we can get that support that we that we really thrive in and that benefits everybody.

It's gotta be hurtful. You can't so they they call something called the in the in the men's workspace, they call it, being the sacred dick. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, we have a different episode about a different different kind of sacred dick. But in this conversation, sacred dick is you can't just be a dick.

You can't just be an asshole.

Right.

You can come in really sharp. But if it's if it's a hurtful and in service to the greater good, then then you have then you have fulfilled the purpose of being the sacred dick and everyone gets it. And I've done that a few times to be like, we're running over time and we're out of integrity. You know, but I wasn't being I wasn't being an asshole. I was being that thing and from that thing, growth.

So so I I love honoring the lineage of those men that you talked about because what I'm hearing you say is you are the person you are. You've grown into the person you are because of them.

So my first boyfriend, and again, the head of my department, they were definitely sacred dicks, and they but what was what was really terrific, and it's how I teach, it's how I learned to teach was they were really hard. But when you did it right, like, as you were just describing, like, this like, they were celebratory. Like, they were, like, excited.

They wanted you to succeed.

To succeed. And you could feel it. Like, it it would emanated from them, and they were they were thrilled. Because they're, like, yes. That's it.

That's it. That's it. And I have taught that way for for 20 years, and all my students know it. They sort of one of my favorite moments was, teaching a student I was teaching the class, and they were just being really, really resistant, so I went into sort of sacred dick mode. And I remember there was, one student, her name is Lydia, and, like, her eyes started to change.

I remember her physical countenance change when she realized what I was doing. I was being a jerk because I wanted certain results from them that I knew they were capable of giving, but just for whatever that day, they were resistant, tired, didn't want to, not interested. And she her face changed, and she I remember her smile. She was beaming when she figured out what I was doing, and her work changed while we were doing it. It was just, like, that's Jack.

Like, that's that's Neil. Like, that's those are my guys coming through doing to you what he did to me. Because I remember being so enraged when I remember the head of my department, Jack Endowall, would be like, so you're gonna fail this class. You know that. Right?

And, like, he was dead serious. It was not a threat. He's like, you're doing so poorly. You think you're so much better than you are. You only have to do these three things and you will succeed.

And I went, oh, god. I remember going back to my dorm room fuming. I was like, fuck you, Jack. And but I'll I'll prove it to you. I did exactly what he told me to do.

Of course, he was a 100% correct, And I brought in the work. It's like, see. And, like, he was thrilled because he got exactly what he wanted out of me because he knew it was the best thing for me.

You know, in the in the dance world, the worst thing that can happen, or at least when I was training, is that the teacher, the choreographer, they ignore you. So, like, that that's really the thing to be like, if I'm telling you to turn your leg out, point your foot more, like, get your leg higher, jump higher, like, I'm looking at you. It's it's for you. There's a point at which you're like, if you don't wanna do it, there's a room full of other dancers who will do whatever I tell them, and we're gonna have a great show. So there's that moment of like, and I've been there too, like, oh, because you because you want it just to be great and, like, you have to integrate the information, but ultimately, like, well, you're only telling me because you you actually want me to be the best because the alternative is you just don't tell me.

And then someone else is the best. And, you know, it's so on some level you're like even if it feels harsh, you're like you're actually giving me so much love.

So much.

So much love purely by paying attention to me when there are 30 other people here and you could be talking about their foot. And you're talking about mine as as the dancer perspective. But it's like it really is such an honor. Yeah. Such an honor.

Yeah. To to receive compassion. Right? Compassionate care from somebody Mhmm. Is an honor.

And I've really just like, this episode has been really beautiful to to witness you guys. Like I'm

having so much fun. Yeah.

I feel

I'm having such a good time.

Like like, I'm learning so much just by hearing about your own journeys and your experiences and your stories. And on that note, thank you both for sharing in this space tonight, for creating so many spaces in this world for, young queer men and, people of all orientations and natures to really, experience your teachings, your lineages, your joys. So I wanted to to thank you for for this space today. We covered a lot of ground. We were able to really look at, superheroes both extra their external appearance and the the costumes and the the armors that they wear as well as the internal characteristics and values that they have and and really being able to look at internal characteristics and values that they have and and really being able to look at that and see how we can learn from that and be inspired by that to become our own, real life superheroes.

And I am so grateful and honored to be sitting here in the presence of 2 incredible heroes of mine. So thank you so much for for being here today.

Yeah. Phil, thank you so much. Are you feeling complete?

I have one thing to say. Please. Donna Troy should always wear heels. Now I'm complete. Now you're complete.

And Eric, do you do you feel complete?

I also think that I should always be wearing heels. So, with that, I'm gonna take that as a no and I feel very complete.

Okay. So let's take a moment now to close our eyes and just take this opportunity with deep appreciation and gratitude for the sacred space and conversation that we've had. Hoping that insight, awareness, delight, exuberant joy have all come from this experience. With these words, our container is open, but not broken. Uh-huh.

Thank you so much for joining us here in the circle. If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queer men's embodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken.

Uh-huh.