Structured vs. Unstructured: Balancing Masculine and Feminine Practices in Men’s Work

Welcome to the circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to The Circle. Today, we're exploring different approaches to men's work, structured practices with clear steps versus unstructured practices that emphasize flow. We'll look at what these styles are from disciplined routines to free form exploration and how they can make an impact on our personal growth and help us break out of rigid patterns. Tim, are you ready to go all in?

Let's do it.

Alright. So to get started, let's talk a little bit about the different approaches we use in men's work. Practices can vary widely from those with clear structures and steps to ones that are more fluid and expressive, and we often refer to those with structure as linear or masculine embodiment practices and those unstructured as nonlinear or feminine embodiment practices. So, Tim, could you give us an overview of what these terms mean in men's work?

Yes. These terms are used as a way of helping us discern or understand the wide array of things that we can do when we are engaging in embodiment practice. So some practices, as you said, are very structured. So in in the pranayama practice, the breath practice of yoga, there are moments when it is crystal clear when you're supposed to inhale, when you're supposed to retain the breath in, when you're supposed to exhale, when you're supposed to retain the breath out. And oftentimes, there's specificity around how long you hold that breath, that how long the inhale is or how long the retention is.

So a lot of structure as to when I'm doing something and for how long. And that's one example. When you are working in that structure, there's a lot of opportunity, opportunity to notice if you are comfortable in structure, notice, how you how you approach it. The structure can also be a source of challenge. So if if, for example, a breath hold is longer than is comfortable, then the attempt at trying to maintain that even through discomfort can be part of the challenge, and it can create a really clear framework for what it is you're doing in that moment.

And like all embodiment practice, these are intended to give us an experience, an an experience of ourselves within within the practice from which we can then learn and grow. So a feminine embodiment practice, as I understand it, tends to be more about intuitive movement or nonlinear, less structured, and more free flow. So the image that we've talked about on this podcast already, this idea of, like, the masculine, the feminine working together that the the masculine is the are the banks of the river and the feminine is the water in the river, and then together, they blend together to create this beautiful thing called a river. And so I think if we looked at all the practices that we do, they exist on a spectrum. I do not believe that any practice is 100% of anything and 0% of the other.

Much like yin and yang, if it's a 100% of one thing and 0 of the other, it probably doesn't exist. So when we are talking about these practices, there's still a little bit of both. But if we think about them, if it's very structured and linear, then we might describe it as a more masculine practice. And if it is more free flow and improvisational or intuitive or, you know, emerging from, an internal wisdom, then we might describe it as a more feminine practice.

And you've led both types of practices many times. What benefits do you see as you see folks who, going through and dealing with structure or more flow?

So as I said, all of these practices are intended to give us an experience. And so each person will walk into a practice session with their own preferences, with their own, you know, strong suits, with their own sense of, weaknesses or or areas where they don't feel as proficient. And so when we step into a practice, it's intended to give us a an experience of ourselves in that practice. So sometimes that can be really satisfying. Oh, I'm very comfortable in this practice.

I I like the structure. Like, for me, as an example, I really like structured pranayama practice. I find it, something I can aspire to, and I like, oh, we're gonna do a which means the the length of inhale and retention and exhale can be different, and it can be really challenging, but it's also crystal clear. Right? And so there's, like, accounting, and it keeps me really, really focused.

But there are other people who that amount of structure can feel a little confining. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do the practice. It means they have an opportunity to recognize how it is they are when they encounter moments where they feel confined by structure. So I've also said this on this podcast, but, you know, when I'm teaching yoga asana, I say, you know, anything that comes up on your mat absolutely comes up in your life, and these practices are no different. So if I'm starting to have negative self talk or have some sort of emotion, judgment, preference pop up when I'm confronted with a practice, that to the conscious man, to the conscious person, is an opportunity to reflect on, well, how is it that I'm being and is that is that serving me?

It also helps us to get a clear idea of what our default sort of, set point is. So I lean a little this way. Someone leans a little that way. That's powerful information too.

Mhmm. And you mentioned the the, you know, finding preference in some of those breath work practices. I'm also in that camp where I do prefer a little bit more structure sometimes. But what I find is that I can start to ruminate on it, and I can start to, like, really think about, like, oh, I can do this because I can do it right. I know the right way to do it, and I have something to kinda, like, latch onto.

Mhmm. And then I can struggle sometimes in some of the unstructured nonlinear practices because I don't know what it's supposed to look like. I think

that comes up a lot for a lot of people. And, you know, we talked about this this week in the circle because we were talking about perfectionism. And one component of perfectionism is, an idea that you know how it should be. So this is a great example of well, one of the reasons I brought us into a more feminine embodiment practice was so that the men in the circle could have the experience of being in a practice that you couldn't do wrong and that and that you couldn't do better or worse than anyone else. There was no there was no way to to judge that because there was no standard.

It was just listening inward and then what trying to honor whatever that was, which meant that there were 7 men 7 men in the circle, and there were 7 different interpretations of what their internal truth was

and honoring them. And and honoring that each of us is gonna do it our our own way, and the temptation in that room is sometimes to to peek over, to be like, oh, what's that person doing? How are they doing it? And should I follow? Should I mimic it?

Because, again, I I can start to get in my own head of, like, am I doing this right? What am I supposed to be feeling in my body right now? So I think that might be a a good thing to talk about is, like, in these practices, what's the intention behind them? What are we trying to like, what is that internal experience that we're we're we're trying to create? Because if we don't know what it's supposed to look like externally, can we at least strive for, like, what we're trying to liberate in internally?

One way that I would say it is that we're often looking for our edges. Right? Our our limits or, the the extent of our capacity as it exists in any particular moment. And, you know, there are there are examples where this feels really clear. If I put people in a chi generator and we're holding it for 15 minutes, you know, for those of you who don't know chi generator, your knees are bent at, like, 4 inches and sort of like holding a squat with your arms up, can get really challenging.

And then you you can get to an edge there, and then you can work with that. Like, well, what does it feel like when I am feeling, like an accumulation of pressure and stress in this moment? Right? And so we're working at that edge, and then we're using things like breath and visualization and a community of men around us to support us through that. The same is true for feminine embodiment, but the but the thing is that the edges might look a little different or feel a little different, and they may even be harder for people to wrap their head around because it's that edge, I suspect, is more about that questioning, like, am I doing this right?

What's it supposed to feel? Like, how was how am I supposed to experience it? So I think shining the light of your awareness on, like, oh, right now you're questioning what you're supposed to be feeling. That's part of the practice.

In masculine embodiment practices, when I do get to an edge, I find most of the time that's a physical edge. Right? Like, we you were just talking about chi generator holding a 10 minute chi generator. It's my legs are on fire. My arms are on fire.

And at that point, I'm pushing myself through something physical, and I I have an easier time, like, being in my body versus when we're in a feminine embodiment practice. I get stuck up in my head, and I'm thinking. I'm thinking about the practice versus being in the practice. And so I'm curious about the the mental component to these practices and, like, where we shine the light of attention?

Well, I want you might have to ask that question again because what you just pointed out, I think, is really important, which is, your experience in a masculine embodiment practice is one thing, but in large part because you know what it is. Right? Like, so so so because of the structure and the way that it is presented, you know what the shape of qi generator is, or you know what the the format of the Wim Hof breath is gonna be with the 92nd breath hold or 2 minute breath. You know? You you one can understand pretty quickly, like, what it is.

So that versus, I don't, like, I don't exactly know what this is because because it has to bubble up from within me. So so when you're talking about that difference, it's like, well, the masculine might be a physical challenge because you knew where to put your body. And the feminine practice was saying, let your body inform you on how it wants to be in this moment.

Right. There's a interesting contrast or inverse that's happening right now as I'm thinking about this that, like, in, masculine embodiment practice, I am able to, like, be in my body and listen to my body and, like, you know, experience those sensations because I there there's also a correctness, you know, the correctness of it. And so that allows my brain to rest. I'm not in my head. And so I'm in my body in those practices versus when I don't know if something is correct, I now am in my head thinking about it rather than listening to the rest of my body.

Right. And so, you know, last night when we did this feminine embodiment practice, which was, an invitation for each person to feel into themselves, and we had, you know, obviously done practice up into that to ground us down and, like, prime us into our body, but then feel into what was wanted. And, there there were so many possible truths. Like, someone might have wanted very subtle, slow, small, more internal kind of movement. Other people clearly wanted bigger you know, there were people who were started standing and then were on the floor and then back to standing.

Other people whose movement was, much smaller. So in that case, even looking around, although you might get a clue if you're so if you're a brand new practitioner, sometimes you open your eyes to be like, wait. What is it exactly what we're doing? But then shortly thereafter, you're you know, when you get a sense, you're like, oh, I see. But but there would be no way to know if I looked at you what I should be doing because the answer to that was is supposed to come from within.

And which means every time you do a chi generator, every time we do a chi generator, there's a similarity to it because it is a very specific thing.

I'm listening within.

Right. Every time I do this feminine embodiment practice, it could be totally different, and it has been. There have been moments where I've been in feminine embodiment practice where my movements are big but flowy, kind of like a scarf, and, like, there's sort of, like, this sort of joyful ease. There have been other moments where it's been, like, sharper and, like like, a more intense they're both right because it's honoring, like, the aspect of flow and in the moment, like, truth. And that's a piece of the practice.

What's true for you in that moment is

what is going to be expressed.

Well, I think the the practice is trying to listen and express the truth of you in that moment and then recognizing, well, the truth of me on Tuesday night, and the truth of me on Wednesday night may not look exactly the same. They may not be at all the same.

Tuesday at 5:30 and Tuesday at 7:30 as well. Right? It doesn't have to be that big of a different it doesn't have to be a full day for there to be a huge difference.

Totally. Totally. I I said Tuesday and Wednesday, because I'm thinking, like, if we did if a mere circle tonight if if we did, the the exact same practice that that I offered last night, it is possible that the a practitioner from last night would have a wildly different experience in how it felt and what they did, and what came up for them.

I'm curious as a facilitator. How do you facilitate the difference between the 2? Like like, the a more masculine practice is requiring structure and instruction. Right? And you give that and you walk us through that.

And with the feminine embodiment practices, the the nonlinear, like, there really isn't a, like, a script to follow. There's not really a, like, do this then do this. So how do you facilitate a practice like that? Mhmm. And do you find a difference in how you facilitate from a Tuesday to a Wednesday, let's

say? Yes. There there's definitely a difference. So the how do you facilitate it? I mean, one thing I would say is, the way that I've been trained, there's this sort of shamanic yogic state of mind that you get in where you're the facilitator's holding a certain amount of awareness on their own body and, a certain amount of awareness on the room that they're holding.

And so part of that answer is you have to listen into and and be feeling into the space. So that I know isn't a very clear answer because that feeling into the space will be dependent on the space and the people in it and the time and, like, all all of that context. So there is a I guess what I'm saying is there's a kind of listening or a kind of awareness that needs to be brought. But pretty pretty straightforward if I'm doing a masculine embodiment practice, if I'm facilitating that and there's all the structure, then I can remind people of the structure. I probably have a pretty clear sense of ways in which to, intensify or back off if needed.

Right? So I'm looking around the room to figure out, like, what is needed in this moment?

Can they go deeper? Do they need to back off a little bit?

So chi generator is an example. Sometimes we're like, oh, you know, bend your knees one more inch so that we, like, meet that edge. Right? And then you can bring it with, with an intensity if that is appropriate for, like, what it is you're trying to create. But now if we think about the feminine embodiment practice that we did last night, me kind of encouraging in, like, an intense way, sort of like a like a like an a coach on a sports team might, would have had, I think, an opposite effect.

And instead there, it's a sort of invitation and permission for the person to continually go back within themselves to to feel into what is wanting to be expressed. And then if you're new to feminine embodiment, sometimes that permission needs to be given over and over and over. You need to remind them. And then also remind them if a person is to pop out, which can happen. Right?

To be like, I was in it, and now I'm like, now I'm in my head again. And, like, okay. Come back to the breath. Go back inward. Like, what is you know, trust what your body is is wanting to tell you.

And so there sometimes needs to be sort of a continual invitation, permission, and reminder of what to do so that at any given moment, someone can come back into it.

What I'm hearing in your toolkit and what I'm learning in the training program as well is that sometimes you have to dial up instruction, and sometimes you have to tone down instruction. You have to dial up suggestion or invitation, right, and kind of recommendations because somebody may be struggling with a practice that doesn't have an instruction, that doesn't have a clear step 1, step 2, step 3. And so you start lobbying suggestions to them. If you take a deep breath, maybe you feel into, like, how is your shoulder feeling? Maybe it's like maybe you wanna, like, shake your leg a little bit.

Right? And you start offering some suggestions to folks because if somebody is new to the practice, they may not know. And so they kinda have to, like, get that cue to try it and to see if that is aligned to their authentic truth in that moment. Yeah. Maybe sometimes it's like, no.

That's that's not what I'm feeling right now, but I I'm just gonna do it anyway just to get my body going.

I've even said that. I think if you're if you're saying what I think you're saying, I've mentioned at times, if this is brand new for you or really tricky, sometimes my invitation is to go big. A little fake it till you make it. But this idea of, go big and let yourself have this experience in an exaggerated way, maybe even for 30 seconds, and then see what that helps you to to find rather than, like, stopping and kind of logically analyzing, like, like, why it isn't working for you. I do this a lot with with, like, sound because I have found in my circle a lot of men are afraid to, take up space with sound and inviting them to go louder first.

That doesn't mean that their expression has to be loud, but sometimes it's like, well, if I've already done the most exaggerated thing, then I've kind of given myself permission then to do whatever the actual thing is for me. So I don't think that that would always be the right idea, but it has many times been the right idea, and I found it to be successful.

Right. And in these spaces, these really safe spaces, like, my edge let's just use sound for an example. My edge might be that I'm only comfortable with, you know, I don't know the exact decibels. Let's call it let's call it 5 decibels is is my is my edge.

I don't even know if that's loud. I don't know. Well, we're we're

just gonna we're just gonna use it.

It is a reasonable amount of decibels.

So that's my that's my edge. That's my comfort zone. That's kind of my limit at that point. And with the invitation to go bigger, I'm gonna fly past that that edge. I might go to 10 decibels.

And in that moment, I get to then, like, fly past that edge and then kinda, like, come back and say, like, oh, how did that make me feel? Right? Where in my body am I feeling this now, and do I wanna go back there? Did my edge now all of a sudden go from 5 to 6? And now I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable getting a little bit bigger.

Well, part of the practice, and

I think something you're alluding to, which is very exciting to me, is this idea of we will walk many times, we will walk in, to the space with preconceived notions about what we are capable of doing. And and so we think our edge is somewhere, but we we only think it's there because we've never tested it, and we don't actually know. And so there are moments when in the example you just gave where that might be totally accurate. And for you, it might be because you've been practicing for a while now and you have a sense of your capacity. Right?

But I have seen people walk in saying like, oh, I can't I can't do this or I can't do that. And then they discover quickly that they absolutely can. They just didn't really know because they haven't had a safe space to get to that place and then see how it feels. So it's a little bit like the cliff. And if I never really walked to the edge of the cliff, then I can just stand back and say, oh, I could never go there.

But if you start to walk, like, well, how close can I go? How close can I go? Well, maybe you can go closer than you think. Maybe you can't, but it's an opportunity for you to shine the light on. Is the edge your edge, or is it what you thought your edge would be because you were too afraid or without the resource to to test it or explore it in a safe conscious way?

I think a lot of us have that.

Absolutely. Like, being in these spaces and being allowed the permission to, like, get it wrong, to not have to have the right answer, to really explore and experiment with my own body is incredibly valuable and incredibly helpful, and I see the benefit of it all the time. I even think about, you know, with a lot of the feminine in embodiment practices, my my comfort level in feeling into my my current experience and then being able to express what I'm what I'm, like, feeling internally, externally, right, like, has has manifested in a lot of ways. I think of creativity. I think of things like writing.

I think of things like even journaling. You and I just started a journaling exercise where we're writing out, like, stream of conscious pages. And I was really resistant to it at first, but, like, it is a sense it is a kind of flow, and it is a kind of release and getting into the experience of it without it looking a certain way. Yeah. And it has been incredibly value.

All of these practices are becoming more and more valuable to, like, help me attack some of the perfectionist tendencies that I have and start to address them in a way that is, you know, a little bit more compassionate where I can say, like, you know, you don't have to have the right answer. It doesn't have to look a certain way. You don't have to look a certain way. And

But also the you're you're touching on something else that's really important because it can help to rewire our understanding or experience of what we might call failure. So, you know, people can be let's go back to the chi generator example. People can be in the chi generator. And one day I mean, I've had this practice. We had it in retreat where I was like I think he said that was a 15 minute chi generator.

It felt like no time at all for me. I felt like I could've been there for much more. Minutes. Let's go, Amir. Let's keep it coming.

You know? But then I've had other times where I'm like, oh, I'm really struggling for any number of reasons. And then I have to

workout the day before, the, you know,

night sleep. Any number of reasons. Yeah. And so so so then you have this moment when, like, oh, maybe today, I have to drop my arms for a second. And then, you know, shake them out, bring them back up as quickly as I can.

And then I have to wrestle with, like, okay. Well, so now what does that mean? And I think these practices start to teach us that, like, it isn't it isn't, this thing that we have to keep hitting. It's instead this journey that we're on. And you're like, you know, one day may not be the same as the next day, and really what matters is this sort of coming back and this curiosity and this reinvestigation over and over and over again.

And then you start to loosen these ideas of, oh, I put my arms down the chi generator, but I haven't failed. I I'm not having a bad practice now. Mhmm. It's instead, like, I'm just having this practice now. Well, I've I've got I've got something that

I would like to to pick apart a little bit. With a practice like chi generator that does have specifics to it, it is a specific way you hold your body. I can me personally, I can consider that, like, if I drop my arms or if I'm not holding the posture right, that I that the posture has failed. I don't need to, though, connect it to me being a failure. I may not have succeeded in holding the posture, but that doesn't make me a failure.

And I think that's something that I'm learning that I can do something, like, incorrectly or need to take a break. And, technically, it is a fail at the thing. I'm thinking, like, you know, I took my motorcycle license test last year, and, like, it's very specific. Right? Like, if you put your foot on the ground, you fail.

Right? So it's like I kinda rest in that as well. It didn't mean that I was a failure. It just means that I failed at that one thing, and I think that's a powerful practice too is to disconnect those.

Right. So if we're saying the same thing, and you're you're absolutely right. So we live in a world, however, where it sometimes can feel very all or nothing. I think a lot of men walk in with, like, this idea of, I wanna be good at it. I wanna be good at it, like, kind of immediately.

And if I'm not good at it immediately, I have all these struggles around that. And getting to a place of, oh, this sort of failure or this need to break in a practice or whatever is a natural, inevitable, and honorable part of our continued growth and journey. And we've talked about this you know, I think about Olympians all the time. You're like, you I know that they have tried it over and over and over again and gotten it wrong before they've gotten it right. And there was only the only way they were gonna get it right was by trying and trying and trying.

And so we get to have that same experience in our circle. And so because then one day you're at work or one day you're in a tough conversation with a loved one, and some of that comes up, and now you've been trained to not completely collapse because one thing didn't go the way you wanted it to or you expected it to or the way that it went yesterday. So it's a really powerful practice because if I collapse every time I don't do something as perfectly as I would have hoped, well, then I would just stay home and do nothing because inevitably things don't we have to be prepared for things to not go exactly as we expect them all the time.

The fear of failure can be crippling, and it can prevent us from taking action and pursuing the things that would bring us the most joy in our lives. And what I find is that there are different areas of my life where I have a higher tolerance for failure or for getting it wrong. So in my professional life, I actually subscribe to the mantra of, like, fail fast. I would rather experiment quickly, and fail. Doesn't mean that I'm a failure, but the experiment might have failed.

And that's okay. Like, I'm so okay with, like, failing fast in my professional life, and I'm becoming more comfortable with the idea of of failing in, you know, some of these these other practices.

Well, where would it be most challenging

for you to fail, Eric? It's emotionally and it's interpersonally. So it's with people that I love and I care about where I have a really hard time with, like, wanting or needing to say the right thing.

Mhmm.

And that will cripple me sometimes of not being able to, like like, be present because I'm so I'm so, like, ruminating on, like, what am I supposed to say? I even experience it with this podcast y'all. Right? Like like, a little behind the scenes is that, like, the first couple episodes, like, I was a walking reaction. I

I don't know what you're talking about.

Where my my perfectionist tendencies came out in a way that I hadn't seen in a long time, where I was feeling very, like, on the spot that I had to have the right things to say and that, like, I was feeling such like an imposter that we had to do so many cuts and retakes and rerecords. And I was just like, I had to really face myself and it's been and approach this project as, like, what is it that I'm afraid of? What am I afraid of of other people interpreting about me if I don't get it right.

So let me ask you a question then. How has failing I know I I don't I don't love that we're using that word, but how how was, like I embrace it. So yeah. Okay. Great.

You're embracing it. Let's do it. How has failing in the context of a safe embodiment practice or men's workspace, helped you in those interpersonal moments that you find so challenging?

Mhmm. Yeah. So, again, it's, like, failing at a like, holding a certain pose or needing a correction. I even think of, like, you know, sometimes in your yoga class, like, I wasn't comfortable at first getting a correction. Like, if there's a part of me that that big part of me that is like, oh, if I can't do it by myself, then I'm a failure.

Mhmm. Or if somebody has to tell me something, then I'm not smart enough. I'm I'm weak. And so, like, I had to really, like, confront that and over time accept that I didn't have to have the right answer. I didn't have to, like, do it on my own and that a suggestion and a correction isn't about a power dynamic.

It's not about a, somebody with authority telling me what to do. It's actually coming from a place of care and saying like, hey. You might injure your body, or it might be more comfortable if you did it this way. And so looking at it as an act of service really helped me to be more comfortable with that. And then also in these safe spaces where, like, okay.

Like, if I'm thinking that I'm doing it a certain way and all of a sudden I have to get a correction, it's like, okay. Like, not a big deal.

So let me just I feel like what I'm hearing you say is that because your engagement has changed through the practices, it has allowed you to then bring pieces of that into your life. So now, an extension of this question, I'm interviewing you, is how how has feminine embodiment, which is based on an internal truth and, like, a listening to intuition and internal wisdom that doesn't have a clear idea of success or failure. How has that helped you with the same challenge?

It has helped me by releasing the attachment that I was having of, like, needing to do something right. And Do

you think I'm just gonna do you think that's because you have, like, simmered in a space where there where there was there was never an exact right answer, but only each individual's right answer? Is that part of it? Meaning that there wasn't a universal answer for everyone in the room. There was your answer and then that person's answer and then that person's answer. So so starting to exist in a space where there were as many right answers as there were participants.

Yes. And it actually reminds me a little bit of, like, art class in elementary school where initially, like, everyone was, like, allowed to just be creative expressions and just, like, express what they were feeling and how they wanted to. And then I remember, like, getting grades in art class, right, and having to do things a certain way. And I remember that, like, having a really detrimental effect on me that, like, I, like, stopped having joy in coloring, stopped having joy in painting because all of a sudden now there was a right way to do it, and there was no longer an expression. And so, like, I think what feminine embodiment practices has done is it has helped me to kind of, like like, go back to those moments and, like, kind of, like, push them aside and say, like, no.

Like, you know, I can be expressive. I can be somebody that that listens to what wants to be birthed out of me, whether that is writing or song or or poetry or art. It is giving me a lot more confidence to express myself, and it is also giving me confidence to express myself emotionally Mhmm. And be more present with people emotionally.

I love that you said that because I had a similar experience in our class. And, I've mentioned in this podcast that I have since become a professional dancer and choreographer. I would, I love music, and I I make up lyrics to songs. And, you know, I consider myself like an artist in some way, but when it comes to drawing, like, taking up some instrument and trying to create something on paper, it is just so hard for me. And, and I remember getting grades in art class and being like, I this is it's not like study harder.

It's not like read that chapter again or do more practice problems or, you know, like, the way you can kind of approach, you know, English history, math, science. I was like, I literally don't know how to to do this. And I remember one time drawing this deer. It was like it must have been, like, 7th grade. I was drawing this deer, and I'm like, I don't know what to do.

And so I just started, like, took a paper towel and started, like, blending the, like, the color. And my art teacher was like, okay. You have to stop blending. I was like, okay. But I don't know what to do because I don't know how to make this look any more like a deer.

I mean, it was really bad. Like so so but and this is I'm not just trying to be self deprecating. Like, I think I'm a talented artist with, like, a lot of creative juices and things to offer, but I don't think that I'm the one that's gonna be drawing or creating visual art in that way. So, yeah, so the grades were the grades were, tricky, but also this idea then, like, when there is a free space without rules, like, what if, like, what if I had been able to create, like, something with construction paper, which I like like and I could cut things out and and make it more, like, shapey. Like, I might have been able to succeed in that way if I had been able to follow the truth of me, which is pen to paper, like, paintbrush to canvas, probably not how I'm gonna end up there, but maybe other ways.

Well, we we talked about this in the episode about intuition that, like, we all have a a, like, a baseline ability. Mhmm. Some some have a higher ability, a natural higher ability, and, you know, most people can be it can be trained in. And I would say the same thing with any sort of art. It and it's coming back to the expression.

So with the deer, you had an expression of yourself on that paper. And then with a teacher coming over and and not criticizing your expression, but making suggestions on your expression. And, like, that can sometimes feel like an attack. So I think about, like, my own experience is that, like, I came up through the ranks of graphic design. And when I first started, designing for folks, like, I would take things so personally because I was putting a part of myself out there.

Mhmm. Right? It was like my expression, and I would take it really personally. Like, it was an attack. And so if somebody had even had a suggestion, I would start to get really prickly.

And so this actually, I wanna make the connection back to facilitation Mhmm. That sometimes initially when I was getting started, the suggestions in class would actually, like, send me back because, like, I would start to, like, move in a certain way, and then a suggestion would come up of, like, oh, like, move your arm. I'm like, oh, am I supposed to be moving my arm? And I would, like, start to doubt. I would start to doubt my own expression that was being put onto the, quote, unquote paper.

That deer that I was drawing was now I was getting a suggestion from the art teacher that, like, oh, maybe you should do this. And I was like, wait. Is this not good enough now? Right? So, like, there's a balance, I think, too of, like, you know, sometimes, like, a suggestion can feel like an attack if if you haven't, you know, exposed yourself to that that comfortability.

Well, and if we're gonna talk briefly about facilitation, I think it's also really important to remember then that, there's a skill in in suggesting, reminding, and inviting people into things. So, in the art class, example, my teacher never told me, like, techniques I could use to make this deer look better. Mhmm. I think the suggestion was, like, make the deer look better. And I'm like, well, I don't know what to do with that.

But in in facilitation or at least the way that I've been trained, you know, the the the suggestions that were given that that we might give are hopefully felt into and connected to that person intended to help them have a, deeper or more comfortable experience of what they're, you know, dealing with. So I think the suggestion needs to, at the very minimum, have an intention of empowerment. My intention is to help empower you into this experience. I can't I can't say do that better. That to me isn't a very empowering way to go.

But if I but if I say, try this or try this in in effort of doing it better for you. So for example, when people start to struggle, we keep going to chi generator. Let's talk about it. Chi generator episode. I will sometimes as people start to fatigue, I was like, I'll, like, deepen your breath and feel like you are full of full of breath, much like a balloon.

Right? Like, intended to can you help make your arms and legs feel less heavy if you start to visualize them like a balloon? That that's a thing that they can choose to do or not do, but at least it's a thing, not not do that better.

And it's a it's also a great opportunity. It's also a great opportunity to, balance presence. We talked about this in our presence episode where, like, sometimes I struggle with, like, balancing of internal presence and external presence. Mhmm. So, like, if I'm trying to be in, right, I'm in chi generator, and then all of a sudden I get a suggestion.

I'm like I'm like, it can throw me off for a moment, but then I have to, like, bounce my presence, my attention back and forth. I'd say, okay. Like, I'm gonna pause my internal. I'm gonna go external real quick, and I'm going to, like, listen to what was just said. And now now I get to decide, do I wanna bring that inside?

And this so this is so perfect because we've been talking about, like, you know, as the facilitator, 80% awareness on yourself and 20% on the room around you. But we were talking about the sort of masculine and feminine, embodiment practices and how none of them in my in my opinion, at least, none of them are a 100% 1 and 0 the other. There's always, like, a mixture. And this is the same, like, you're it's mimicking life here where, most times in our life, we will not have the luxury or ability to be a 100% internal or external. It it it is probably nearly impossible to do, so we need to be able to practice the skill of, like, can I can I be mindful of where I am placing my awareness, my my attention, my presence, and how much of it I am holding and how much of it I am I how much of it is inward, how much of it is outward, and how might that change depending on where I am, how I am, what I'm doing, who I'm with, like, all that?

And so it feels like a really powerful skill if we can if we can hone it so that when we are, you know, with people, we are engaging in this way of, like, oh, I can I can start to modulate how much is needed in this moment?

Can can flow between the poles. And part of my own practice has really been, like, allowing myself to release from the attachment. Right? If I'm really comfortable being in, like, I've gotta release from that attachment to go out for a little bit. Right?

You can come back in, but I do have to, like, release from it. And because my preference would be, like, I wanna stay in, in, in, in, and then it's like, no. I have to, like, take a moment and go out.

I sometimes think about that when I'm leading, yoga classes, especially when I will be dropping people into meditation. And knowing that in the room, there are some regular meditators. So I could I could basically just say, begin your meditation practice. But, you know, I've in my training as a yoga teacher and a facilitator, this idea that you're always teaching to the beginner. So I guess if I knew, especially in a small town, if I knew every person in the room, then I could sort of break this rule and just say, okay.

Let's meditate because I know everyone here knows how to do that, and I've already instructed it. But oftentimes, I'm like, well, no. I have to continue to instruct for that person who may not know exactly what's happening, and because of that, I will be talking while some people are already meditating. And then you think to yourself like, oh, well, I I'm giving audible instructions right now on the steps it takes to do this, and that person doesn't have a choice but to but to hear me because because it's what's happening.

And so It's an opportunity for them to deepen their practice where they can be like, well, can I sit with discomfort of, like, I would prefer to sit here in silence? However, this is going on around me.

So that and that's how that's how life works so often. Oh, I wanna have this conversation, then a fire truck drives by or you know? And so it feels like a really beautiful practice. So when we think about masculine embodiment practice and feminine embodiment practice and where practices exist on that sort of spectrum, we start to realize, oh, we are practicing many possibilities that will be reflected in our lives. Moments when there will be a lot of quiet or a lot of stillness or, you know, a lot of inward contemplation and then moments where it will be very different than that.

And if there's a place on that spectrum where we are very uncomfortable, then chances are that's probably where we need to be practicing. And it's why some of the in yoga, some of the things they would you know, if there's a yoga pose that you don't like, you probably need to practice it more. Now, obviously, if you're working with an injury and things like that, you you still have to be really mindful, but the idea of, you know, preference can play a big role in here too because if I have a really strong preference, I really don't like that. At the very minimum, I should be curious about why. Mhmm.

Because chances are I don't like it because and then I'm not good at it or I can't do it perfectly or you know? Right.

Or this one experience that

I had with it that one time. Totally. Totally. Actually, this is fun. I I there was this master teacher, Jiva Mukti Yoga.

Her name is Lady Ruth, and, she was one of Sharon g and David g's original students, and she spends a lot of time in India and knows a lot of stuff. And I took her class for the first time, and people had been raving about it, but it was, it had its own flavor because of how senior she was, and I hated it. Hated it. I was like she started speaking in Sanskrit. I was like, I have no idea what you're saying, even though I'd been practicing yoga a lot at the Jivanmuthu at that time.

And she structured her class in a very different way where we all sort of gathered around her, and I was like, no. I wanna start doing down dog. And, you know, I realized later, I'm like, I walked in with a lot of preference about and a lot of expectation about how I thought it should go. Well, fast forward to I deepen my studies, and then there was a time when her class was my absolute favorite because I had shifted, my understanding and, like, my rigidness around what it had to be. And then what's funny is that, like, her class was so challenging and, like, so insightful, but I had to I needed practice in relinquishing, recognizing first my preferences and my expectations and then being willing to be more flexible with it.

And that became a practice, and that's what we do in the room regardless of whether we're doing a highly masculine or highly feminine practice. The idea is that I'm increasing my capacity to the best of my ability so that I can bring that capacity into my life. And then with it, resilience, groundedness, presence, all the things that we need so that we don't collapse and then and then react in ways that are detrimental.

Right. There's a time and a place for rigidity, and there's a time and a place for a little bit more flexibility and and fluidity. I mean, think of, like, some trees, right, are are biologically more rigid, and some are more pliable. And it depends on their environment that they're in, and there are also parts of the tree that are in the same tree that are more rigid Mhmm. Solid, and there are others that are more pliable and flowing.

So, like, the trunk of an oak is really stable. When you get up into the branches and into the limbs, it's a little bit more sway. And as you go closer to the top of the tree, more sway. But then you think of things like a palm tree that are in an environment with a lot more wind, the trunk is more pliable. It is a a tree that does sway and has to be able to sway to withstand its environment.

Mhmm. And so but even still, there is a rigidness to it. Yeah.

Well, so what I'm hearing you say is that there is a flexibility within its structure. There's the it, like, it does it exists somewhere on a spectrum. Yeah. Buildings and bridges are meant to bend in the wind. To withstand the world is what it takes.

Yeah. This idea that, this is why even in in in in personal training and and physicality, we're really aiming for a balance between strength and mobility for optimal for optimal, like, health wellness. But, you know, if we get too rigid, we will likely break in in a particular way. If we if we get too mobile without stability, we might break in a different way. And so it becomes this balance.

And so going back to what we said at the very beginning, in that example, each person will have their own general set point. Right? Like, I was never very flexible relative. I had to work really hard to gain all the flexibility that I did gain. I was you know, my one of my dance teachers said, some people are born like, Viking soldiers, and some are born like Cirque du Soleil performers.

And he's like, Tim, you're a Viking soldier. And so, like because there were people in the dance program, they could just stretch and put their legs wherever they wanted and, like you know? And I had to I had to work really hard to gain all of that. But the but this blend, this ability for me to to have both is what is most optimal. And so in the embodiment practices and when for people who are doing this work, the idea is expanding your capacity and being able to blend both.

And there's no right blend. Right? It's gonna be situational. It's gonna be individualistic, and it's only through training and practice that you can find where, you know, you do fall in that spectrum and and how to, flow with a little bit more ease along it.

Right. There's no, someone someone may be really good at x, y, and z, but not so good at a, b, and c. It it isn't a matter of, there being one standard that we're trying to hit, but rather recognizing our truth to the best of our ability and trying to expand that from wherever we are. So, yeah, it's gonna look different. And so I think for as long as I do this work, there will be things that are more comfortable to me, things that I enjoy more or find more satisfying, and things that are less comfortable and are more challenging.

And it wouldn't surprise me if the people that are traversing this journey with me had the same experience, but for them, the thing I find really satisfying, they might feel really challenging. And and it's sort of honoring where we're at and then doing our best.

And like we said before, like, something that you're really good at today or something that, like, feels more comfortable could be a challenge tomorrow. Right?

Totally. And so a good example is, in yoga asana, my regular yoga asana practice, I, when I can, I like to do a forearm stand, a pincha mayurasana? And it just feels like a very satisfying, posture for me, kind of strengthy and balancey. It also comes usually near the end, and so it's I don't know. It's I just enjoy it.

But I occasionally have days where I just can't find my balance. And I will often, like, sit on my heels and remind myself, like, okay, Tim. Today, your practice of this posture was trying to get into it. Whereas very frequently, almost always, I can get into it, hold it for 10 breaths or 15 breaths, and be like, oh, you know, and there's probably a little ego there. I'd be like, I look cool, you know, even if I'm totally by myself.

Right? So I'm just gonna own that. But other times, I'm like, well, for whatever reason, this pose that was available to me for the last three and a half weeks, and it was probably gonna be available to me tomorrow. Today, it isn't. And what do I do?

Do I It's okay. Do I collapse and just suddenly say, well, I'm not good at yoga. I'm not gonna do this anymore? No. I have to remind myself, okay.

This is what's happening now, and can I allow myself to flow and be like, it it's this today, and it'll be something else tomorrow?

That would have happened to me a year ago. I would have not been able to detach from, I can't do it. I'm a failure. Mhmm. And so right.

Like, the hearing you say, like, being able to say, like, okay. Well, my practice today is this. And, like, that's really beautiful. That's really beautiful to hear, to witness that, like, it it's not that, like, because you couldn't accomplish something that, like, you've you are a failure. It's like, no.

I just I have a new opportunity now to look at this a different way, to practice it a different way. It's just an opportunity.

And so thinking about these these practices and thinking about queer people and queer men, I would like to say, you know, as a gay man, I have and we've talked about this, had feminine attributes and things weaponized against me. Right? And as we've talked, you know, as as a young boy, to be called a a woman or like a woman was an insult, but it was also, like, a sign that you maybe weren't entirely safe. And so I recognize now when we use these terms masculine and feminine, which is why sometimes I like, yang and yin, that that can be triggering, and that I think a lot of gay men have shied away from any kind of feminine expression because it could have potentially been a target. So when we think about our set point, we have to think about some of these things.

For a lot of for a lot of these men, a lot of the men in the circle, feminine embodiment is precisely what they need so that they can get closer to their balance point. And they have that ability and that resilience to flow as needed because the need isn't gonna change. In our human experience, we're gonna need to be able to flow between the masculine and feminine, between the yin and the yang or the sun and the moon or however you conceptualize it, all the time. So the greater our capacity to do it, the greater the ease with which we will do it in our everyday life.

And And dare I say, might even find a little joy in doing it too.

I think, ultimately, that's the goal. Right? Where eventually, we get to it becomes a bit of a a game, and we get to start to make some choices about what is needed in any particular moment and bring bring that. But so considering that too, some cultural ideas that also play a factor, in my circle in particular that is populated predominantly by gay men, those men really need and benefit from feminine embodiment because it allows them the opportunity to have an expression they felt like they were not allowed to have. And one of the men spoke to it last night, this idea that, you know, kind of never moved like that before because didn't have the permission or the safety to do it, and finally did and had an experience.

And what was interesting is, you know, as the facilitator, I was watching everybody, and it appeared like he was a little resistant in the practice. It was a great reminder that that was only sort of relative to other people he voiced later a really deep, profound experience of that permission and that safety and that exploration. So then it just becomes a matter of, like, maybe in a year from now, if he does that 5 or 6 more times, it evolves for him. But how beautiful that is. Right?

Yeah. His his edge was a a one on the decibel. Right? And he went to a 2. Boom.

And for for

Yeah.

You and you're like, oh, I didn't didn't quite hear that. Right? But for him, it was really loud.

Totally. And so that's, like, a beautiful insight for anyone in the practice of these, you know, in these circles and doing this work, but also as facilitators. And having to remind myself over and over and over that the person I'm facilitating may have a very different starting point than I have or set point. You know? And with feminine embodiment in particular, because I was trained as a dancer, falling into some of this nonlinear movement to me is pretty natural.

And so I have to remind myself, oh, for many, it's not only is it not natural, it feels, challenging or uncomfortable. And so and then remembering that. So so just a little insight into the practice of facilitation, this constant, curiosity about how what I bring of myself and and expanding my own capacity to remember what all the other possibilities that might be walking into the room at any one time.

Absolutely. And I think that's why in this episode, particularly, we've not just spoken about these practices and the energies as masculine or fem feminine. We've also introduced linear, nonlinear, structured, unstructured in the hopes that it can help folks, you know, to to detach from any stereotypes or any associations that they might have with it that may limit them from exploring the depths of their experience. And I even think, like, last night as well, somebody mentioned that, like, it you know, nonlinear movement, they were calling it flailing practice. Right?

They totally were.

And, like, that was also really beautiful where it's like, yeah. That's that that's your truth right now, then flail away. Right? Like, lean into the flail. And so with that, I would like to thank everyone for joining us in this conversation and for, you know, in in inviting folks that, like, you know, if if any of what we said today, like, resonates or if it didn't, right, like, invite you to, like, practice.

Try. Like, try going into a more structured breath practice and then contrast that with a movement, a nonlinear movement practice and, like, see how it feels, see what comes up for you.

That's beautiful. Yeah. You gotta step in and try. You might be surprised what you find.

So with that, I'm feeling very complete. How about you?

I'm feeling

complete. Will you take us out?

So with deep appreciation and gratitude for this opportunity, the space in this community, I wish all of us as we leave here safety, love, community, and expression, and what these words are containers open, but not broken.

Uh-huh.

Thank you so much for joining us here in The Circle. If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queer men's embodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. And as we leave now, I wish you brotherhood, connection, authenticity, vulnerability, safety, and love. And with these words, our container is open but not broken.

Uh-huh.