Beyond Doing - Exploring Identity Outside of Roles and Accomplishments

Welcome to The Circle. A queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

My name is Eric Bomyea. Welcome back to the circle. Today, we're exploring a question that rarely gets asked. Who are you when you're not doing anything? So, many of us, especially men, introduce ourselves by our jobs or our accomplishments. But what happens when our sense of self is wrapped up in these roles? I'll share my own story from running businesses to training to be a firefighter and how I realized that people often engage more with what I do than who I am. Let's dive into what it means to find out our identity beyond our achievements and connect with a deeper sense of self. Tim, are you ready to go all in?

I'm ready to go on all in. I don't know if I have any answers.

Well, we're gonna We're gonna find out. We're gonna find out. Yeah. So when you meet somebody new, what's the first thing you tend to tell them about yourself?

Well, I think as you pointed out, we tend to talk about what we do. So I don't know. It's it it actually feels like a hard question to answer because I can't remember a time when I've met someone where there wasn't a flurry of questions right up front. You know, what is your name? Where are you from?

You know, in Provincetown, are you visiting? You know, for how long? And then inevitably at some point, the question of like, what

do you do comes up? Yeah. I've I've in those moments where in meeting new people or even conversating with people that I know, like, what I found is that the conversation typically stays at, like, what do you do? And so I remember when I first moved to town and I would go to tea dance or go to parties, I was launching, businesses in town and, like, that's what I wrapped my identity in. So I was, like, launching a a clothing line.

And so it was like I was being introduced as, like, a designer and, like, you know, this is somebody, you know, you should know. And, like, that's how people came to know me, but then the conversation would stop after that. And then anytime I saw them afterwards, it was always a check-in of like, how is that thing going?

Well, so this might become a conversation about our comfort zone because I have to imagine that one of the reasons that is a common question is because for most of us, we have to do something. So you have to do something and I have to do something. If we talk about those things, then we immediately have something to talk about. It's not uncommon not not unlike, I remember my mom when I was a young boy was a smoker. And 2 smokers could find plenty to kind of, like, talk about in the in the smoking of a cigarette, in addition to, like, a shared sort of ritual.

Like, can I bum a smoke? Like, the lighter, the packing, the, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I wonder sometimes if the question about, well, what do you do? Is this a version of that? I have to do something.

You have to do something. Almost all of us have to. And so it's a shared experience that we can relate to. And then it also allows us like, oh, well, we just I learned about you. I met you, but I didn't have to necessarily be vulnerable, open up, talk about any of, like, the harder stuff that might be harder for me to say or or harder for you to hear.

On the topic of smoking, I saw I was a smoker for over 15 years.

That blows my mind.

And some of my best friends who I still keep in contact with today, I met through smoking. And we didn't talk like this. Our first conversation was not about, like, oh, you're a smoker. I'm a smoker. Like, let's smoke together.

It was like we were talking about, like, hey, how are you? Like, what's going on? Like, we're actually, like, if it was at a bar, it's like, oh, what are you what are you here for tonight? And, like, we were able to get into, like, depth pretty quickly.

Mhmm.

It's actually when I stopped smoking that I found that the conversations actually got way more superficial and that I actually started I would sometimes go to, like, the smokers lounge area. Mhmm. It's actually superficial and that I actually started I would sometimes go to, like, the smokers lounge area of, like, tea just to, like, keep those, like, depth of conversation. So it's that was an interesting moment that, like

So you basically well, I've never been a smoker, so it's hard for me to say. I've only observed it. But it sounds like you're saying you're having the opposite experience. So so this podcast is now advocating, like, you should smoke if you want deep meaningful conversations.

No. I just I found that, like, people focus less about, like, what I was doing and more on, like, you know, how are you? Who are you? Not what do you do?

Do you think it's easier for people to ask questions like that in the context of some other shared experience like smoking or drinking or or even I mean, one of the reasons why we engage in extracurricular activity like, oh, we're all on a baseball league or a bowling, you know, volleyball, whatever the thing is, cooking class. Like, in that context where, like, now we have something shared. Now I can actually go deeper.

Mhmm. Yeah. So there's a the shared context for the shared, like, similarity that maybe allows us to get a little bit deeper quickly quicker. So that instead of like 2 random people coming together, we're gonna have to like figure things out. You at least have some common ground to to go off of.

Right. So I guess we won't know for sure, but sounds like common ground, is fodder for greater depth. Mhmm. That feels right to me. I mean, the yogic tradition talks about the importance of satsang, this group of truth seekers, you know, all with the same intention of, you know, deeper understanding, deeper truth, deeper realization.

And so I think we can see examples of that all over the place.

Absolutely. But even when it came to, not meeting new people, it could be people that I've now have known, the conversation sometimes that I've noticed is that it tends to be about, like, what I'm what I have done. Like, in my case, I started 2 businesses in Provincetown, and then I was starting to train to be a firefighter. And when I run into people, the first question out of most people's mouth is not, how are you? It's, how's your business?

Mhmm.

Or, how's that training going? So it's that's they've connected me with what I do and that's what they're curious or what they're inquiring about. Not necessarily me as a person.

Well, so if we think of it from the men's work perspective, I wonder how frequently are people investigating how they are doing. So it wouldn't surprise me at all that no one is gonna come up and ask you how are you in like a real way. I mean, we say how are you all the time and like the how are you and the expectation, I'm fine. How are you? Like and you just kind of move on.

But the real how are you, it's well, that's probably not gonna come from a person who hasn't had that same question posed to themselves. Well, how am I? And so if wrestling with how you are doing is tricky, then it'll be even trickier for me to like if I can't handle it myself, I'm probably gonna have a hard time handling from you. Maybe it's easier if I can talk about things that, that are that are more superficial and more shared. I mean, this doesn't surprise me that we talk about the weather.

We talk about traffic, and we will talk about the news because because, you know, a major news event happens and we all have that in common. It is a safe space where if I'm gonna tell you I'm actually really struggling, having a really hard time right now, and and you don't have any context for that, you know, and I've I've actually had this experience that happened to me just a few weeks ago. I went to talk to a friend. He could not hold it. It was it was as if I was speaking a different language.

And I'm like, okay. I can't I can't have this conversation here. I can't have it with him. And I would I suspect it's because he's not asking it of himself. So so but he's he has a job and I have a job.

We could talk about our jobs. It's also, I think, why people with kids oh, I have a kid. You have a kid. Let's we can talk about that. I have a dog.

You have a dog. Okay. We can talk about that. I have, like, I I have a hobby and you have the same hobby. We can talk about that.

And anytime it's like I'm about to ask you a question that's gonna take me into the unknown or the depths that maybe I've never explored, well, that's much harder.

Yeah. It requires a little bit more trust and and feeling safe with that person to really open up and be vulnerable, you know, if if that is gonna be revealed.

Even a skill set though. I mean, a skill set of, how many people do you think, outside of the men's workspace and other personal growth spaces, have the tool set to navigate the unknown. You know, have the ability to say, oh, I I don't fully understand what you mean, but I it sounds like this or, you know, I can imagine there's a lot of people who haven't practiced that for any number of reasons. And so it is daunting.

Absolutely. And, like, it's even daunting for me sometimes to to be in situations where I'm like, oh, like, somebody said something. And, like, now am I gonna fall into, like, old repeated patterns of, like, you know, consoling them or, you know, trying to to redirect them or worse, like, say, like, oh, you think you got a bad type type of energy. Right? Like, you know, do I actually have the the skills and the ability and the curiosity and compassion empathy to sit with them to to go through it?

And I would say like many times, yes, But it has been through more of my spiritual journey that that frequency of yes is increased.

Well, so a thing that I've noticed a lot and I can feel myself getting passionate even like thinking of bringing it up is our sort of collective emotional illiteracy. And the experience that I've had so frequently because I am very emotional person. I don't know if you've noticed that or not. I'm a very emotional person and I like to talk about my emotions and I express my emotions. But in front of people who don't have that, who have either haven't cultivated it or don't know what's available to them or whatever the thing might be, they they will often see me having an emotional experience and immediately tell me that they think I'm upset.

And it is so frustrating because I'm like, I'm not upset. I'm emotional. I care about what I'm talking about and that can look like excitement. It can look like, you know, intensity. It can look like maybe a little bit of anger or sad.

You know, it can look like some things. But because you haven't traversed this this landscape at all, you don't have any ability to discern. And so it all just looks like upset to you. And then the solution becomes, I I just have to try to quell your upset either by, like, soothing you or by pointing out that you're upset and you shouldn't be.

Yeah. That's a really good point because, like, I I I think that when I think back of times that, like, I have also been in those moments and folks not being able to, like, meet me where I was needing in that time, I sometimes say, like, okay, it's not even worth it. It's not worth for me to express myself. It's not worth for me to let people in. And so maybe in that, I've kind of boxed my own self in by, like starting 1st and foremost with what I do and and what I've accomplished because it's safer territory.

It can be it can be safe from both angles. You're absolutely right. One angle is, like, it's if I'm if I'm unaware of my emotional landscape, it's like, oh, this is a safe space we can all just sort of chitchat in. But if I'm aware of my emotional landscape and then I don't trust that the the people around me or the situation around me can hold any of it, then I might make that same choice to then, avoid the landfall of, oh, you're gonna you're gonna see a piece of me that's like an authentic piece of me that you're not gonna be able to understand. And then I'm gonna be the one left feeling and holding this sense of lack.

Like, oh, here here I am again, like, unable to be fully seen or heard, because because my audience can't.

Mhmm.

And so I've definitely done that. You know, sometimes people are like asking me, Tim, how are you? I'm like, I'm great. How are you? Because the answer is no.

Things are, things are really, really tough for me right now and I'm going through a lot of stuff. And I don't think based on previous experience that you can really handle any of it. And then I'll have some people dig a little deeper and I'm like, careful how deep, deep you dig because I'm not unwilling to tell you. Actually, that isn't true. I am unwilling to tell people that I know can't hold it.

But if I think you can hold it, I'll tell you. But are you ready to get real?

And are you ready to stay there with me too? Because I don't wanna open up and have you say, oh, well, now I need to go. Right? Like, if you're gonna help me open up, then you've also got to help me close close me up after

I do. Yeah. Yeah. No. Exactly.

Do you even know what you're asking? Yeah. And I think oftentimes people don't. They they have a great intention, but, oh, you're you're asking me for my truth. You know, you want the truth, you can't handle the truth.

You can't handle the truth. But like like if you want it, then you have to be able to hold it. Or or or you have to have the skill set to say that was unexpected and kind of work in a skillful way. You know, in skillful way meaning, like, sometimes it'd be like, oh, I don't I don't know what to say right now. Or, you know, kind of speaking your own experience in a way that stays with that person even if you can't be like an expert or master advice giver or whatever the thing, you know.

But that's also a skill set that I think most people don't have. And like, I think most people are like, I'm I'm pretending to be great and maybe on occasion I actually feel like I am, and I want you to do the same thing. I and I want us all to exist there.

So in your example, I heard you say that people sometimes, you know, think they they have to have the the best advice or be the best advice giver, be the most insightful person to to be that they're with. And sometimes they don't have the the vulnerability to, like, just say what, you know, is on their mind or what's in their experience. And so I'm curious now, do you, think there are other ways in which men box themselves in by their their, job titles or their roles in life, the roles like provider and protector?

Yes. I'm gonna I'm gonna break that in 2 because and I might even ask you to ask the second part of that question again because the first part I think is really important, which is that in my experience and what I've observed with clients and in men's workspaces and, and in yoga and in so many things like the human experience and this experience of our of our human life can be messy and uncertain and kind of constantly unfolding. And I think what we often need is someone who is willing to be in the mess with us. So we we know we see TV shows and so many other messaging of, oh, there's this like wise person who comes in and gives you the piece of advice that you need. And within 25 minutes of a of a sitcom, this problem is solved and everyone's happy.

But I think in real life, sometimes what you need is I can sit here in the uncertainty with you And I can be honest that I don't have the answer or I don't have it yet or I might have one slice of it and, you know, but I can think of many times in my life where someone just sitting in that uncertainty and you're like, okay. Because I think part of us sometimes knows this is going to take a minute for clarity to come. And what I'm really wanting is an opportunity to express my experience of what's happening right now and to feel not alone. I don't often I think most people don't often always need immediate solutions. Sometimes they do.

But sometimes, like, can you just be here with me? Can I just not be alone when I also feel terrified or sad or abandoned, you know? And, like, oh, you're willing to you're willing to be here with me and you can honestly tell me you don't have the answer either, but we can be here.

Power. There's so much power and confidence that comes from admitting. I don't know something, but I know that I don't know something and I'm not gonna try to fool anyone into believing otherwise. And like that that can create such safety with with people too. Is that like, oh, this person is just being super real with me right now.

I think maybe I mentioned this already, but I'll say it again. You know, when I was an acupuncturist, I worked with, cancer patients in New York City. And most of the cancer patients were breast breast cancer patients, and so they were older women. And, and we would I frequently had this experience where I would tell them because of my brain surgery, I don't know what chemo is like. I don't know what radiation is like, but I know what fear and uncertainty are like.

And so I can be here with you with those things. Right? And there was a lot of healing in that. I don't know the specific challenges you're facing based on your radiation or your chemo, but these other things I can be here with. And it always tightened our connection, you know, with me and the patient.

And, and I think that's just an example of what if we could do that in our lives, then a lot of healing and connection could be created. And because because though that is such a courageous, brave, vulnerable, unknown, often uncharted territory sort of thing, then we might spend our time instead talking about what it is we do and what we've accomplished. And what I can prove to you based on certificates and, you know, frames and awards and, you know, Instagram posts or whatever the the thing is.

It really changes the way that we interact with people is how much we're we're willing to reveal, which I think, you know, just continuing to go back to this inquiry of, you know, being defined by, by what we do and what the impact has over time. Right? If we, if we're constantly having these more superficial engagements and we're, and we're constantly connecting our identities and our self worth to what it is that we do and what it is that we've accomplished, what impact does that have over time?

Well, I mean, one of the scary things, and I thought about this, if if my if my value or self worth is determined based on what I do, how much I make, what I drive, what I wear, how good I look, how fit I am, then at some point that is going to change. And then what? So I think about this a lot because as a professional dancer and, you know, I think, you know, the the time and effort that I've put into my own body and, how much I've worked with it, there are moments when I'm like, well, I am still aging as are we all. And at some point, I'm gonna have to and I've I've already started feeling it as I've been aging, but, I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to let go. I I can't let this be the only way that I have value because then at some point, I'm gonna be very disappointed.

So what do we do? Well, we have to start to understand that we have value in other ways that aren't necessarily, achievement based and start to connect with them. So, Oh, is, is my presence in this world a valuable thing? And can I start to rest in that so that if I gain £5 or if I lose my job or if I wreck my car or if my clothes don't fit anymore or, you know, they go out of fashion, I don't have to necessarily crumble because now suddenly I mean nothing? And I I speak about this from a a place of, you know, I'm Irish Catholic, little gay boy.

For a long time it had it was all about how other people perceive me and I still to this day struggle with that. So to anyone listening, it is a practice and from my own personal experience and, you know, I guess we all have a different starting place, but, it's been a tricky one. There are moments when I feel successful in it and that feels good. And then there are moments when I do not feel successful, and then that does not feel good.

I can relate to that. And the the journey to celebrating myself exactly as I am and embracing others exactly as they are is a daily it's a daily practice for me. And because I I have connected myself so much in the past with, like, what I do and I I still do it. I think about and I mentioned in the top of the episode that, like, I had started training to be a firefighter here in town. And I, started using that as a way for people as they were asking me about, like, the the business that the businesses that I had stepped away from in this town, like, you know, when they were asking, like, what it will okay.

So you're not doing those businesses anymore. So what are you doing? And be like, oh, well, I'm training to be a firefighter. And so, like, I fell into the trap again. Like I was I was originally, I had signed up to be a firefighter to be of service.

But then I started using it as a way to, like, claim identity again. And I think in the back of my head, it was also a way to, like, try to gain reputation or admiration or something. So if I were to think about it, it was, like, 75% of it was me trying to be of service, but 25% of it was shadowy, like, attention seeking, validation seeking behavior. And, like, it was a choice I made because of that. And so when people asked me, like, oh, what is it that you're doing?

Like, that's what I was that's what I was using to do that. I was

Well, okay. I wanna I wanna pause. Thank you for sharing that. Shadowy or attention seeking. I don't know.

We are human beings are communal beings meant to live, you know, in relationship and all kinds of relationship. I think one of the things we're talking about today is this issue of, needing to be seen and held and heard by our community and valued in that way. But we don't have a culture set up to do that. So, I guess I want to cut you some slack, but in so doing cut me some slack too to be like, oh, when I feel the need to get some attention, that isn't because I'm necessarily just a narcissist looking, you know, make it all about me. I'm a communal person that wants to feel like a valuable member of my community.

Loved and protected and and held and, you know, valued. And so part of one of the things I do in my life and I know people think, you know, for those of you who don't know me, people think I'm a weirdo very frequently. But one of the things that I do that I think people think is weird is I tell them what I like about them or that I appreciate them. And I say the phrase, I appreciate you, which I know when people first hear me say it, it feels odd. You know, it's not a thing that people are typically hear and takes people a minute.

But I do that because, oh, what if we lived in a world where I actually told you some of the things I notice about you instead of, you know, the the Irish Catholic, you know, my upbringing, it would be like, oh, I remember, you know, my grandmother had something nice to say. She would say something nice about someone to someone else, Say lovely things about them but would never say it to their face. And I don't know if that was actually, I'm not gonna hypothesize like why exactly. What I know is rather than telling aunt Pat that she really appreciated what she did, she would tell my mom in another room at a different time. And like, oh, maybe aunt Pat would have really appreciated, knowing that you recognize her contribution and valued it.

And like that could go a long way. Instead, Aunt Pat probably did, you know, an act of service and now was left not knowing that and maybe wondering that. And if she's like me, at times probably questioning if she's being fully seen or heard.

Right. If if what she did actually was of value and, you know, was it the you know, I can only think back, like, times that that has happened to me where I just am stuck in a rumination of, like, did I do the right thing? Did I do something good? Did I do something bad? Like, I don't have the validation.

I don't have the, like, the the message coming back to me to reaffirm that.

Yeah. And also when we think about human relationships, I think you're great. I love you. That was amazing. You just did an incredible job.

I think, you know, I think that was a fun experience. Thank you for sharing that. These these things are not hard to do. I mean, I guess if you're aware of it and you remember, they're not hard they're not hard to do. They don't they don't cost anything.

And they might go a really long way in helping someone else feel grounded, loved, like they belong.

It goes back to like being celebrated for who that person is. Right? Not what they do. Like, it's just like, like simply by being and appreciating, like, I appreciate you. Simple.

Right? I don't have to go into a bunch of narrative and story around it. It's just you are appreciated. You are loved. Mhmm.

I'm like, that's a pretty powerful statement to be able to receive.

It's also really powerful when you think about, now if I have a conflict with you, now if I have a demand of you, now if I have a critique of you or feedback for you or something needs to shift. Right? Which happens all the time in healthy relationships or it should. If we have a baseline of I love you, I appreciate you. I'm in this with you, then I can say, and let's have this conversation and, you know, make a shift.

Without that, it can feel devastating to be like, I'm about to get feedback. This person is about to leave me because I have somehow failed. There's, there's very little certainty that what we have or what we share is sustainable. And part of that is because I may have been unwilling or un or incapable of reassuring you. I actually really care about you.

And because I care about you, I'm gonna talk to you about this hard thing because I want it

to get better. Yeah. I think, like, real conversations like that are so needed. Like, I think back of, like, if if those types of conversations would have happened to me as a young child, I, thing good? Am I doing the thing that's gonna get the the praise, the alco accolades?

Right. And I was just celebrated a little bit more for me and then being able to, like, have those, conversations, whether they're hard conversations or not, like, in that more loving way, like, how that might have impacted my life today. Like, I really fall into the trap of, like, do more. Mhmm. I have a really hard time doing less.

Yeah. And so I'm a person that, like, at one point, I think back to to last summer, I had a full time job. I was running my own business. I was working at a bar and doing a bunch of odd gigs through town. Yeah.

Like, at one point, I think I did, like, 6 or 7, like, part time jobs plus my full time job, like, because I I couldn't stop doing. Well I was just, like, more, more, more, more, more, and, like, I had built so much of my identity around things that I do.

Well, I think that it's built in. Right? It's easy for us to do that, and I think that, it's a very easy thing to, reward or to acknowledge when someone oh, you completed this thing. You graduated. You won this award, you know.

But then I wanna think about it from the queer perspective where so I think just in general, queer not queer, you know, children. We lived in a world where accomplishment was seen as really admirable and kind of the standard. But then what we're sort of asking for is, you know, a recognition of our being and could that be enough? Right? And then I wonder, well, even even if my caregivers were capable of recognizing my being, would they have knowing that my being was different?

So, it was clear when I was young gay boy that, there was something different about me. So had my family or caregivers had that skill set, would they still have done it? I don't know. I mean, I I I actually think that they would not have because they so actively tried to change me. So I doubt that they would have, but, like, that's also inherent in, like, okay.

So now as a queer person, the messaging of, you know, there's something about you that that isn't great. And so in the culture that we're discussing now, well, then even more achievement. It should not surprise anyone that so many queer people are these very high achieving creative beings. I think in part because, well, this is the way we were trained to find safety and acknowledgement.

It was the way that I was trained where I, like, was the the star pupil. I was the a plus student in order to attempt to get the recognition, validation, and acceptance from my father that I wanted so desperately, you know, to as just being me, but, like, had such a fear of being me that I was like, okay. Well, I I can't bring my full self. So, you know, I'm gonna bring him this Mhmm. And this can be celebrated.

And so it was actually kind of a way of redirecting as well. Well, totally. Focus on this instead of this.

Totally. And it's also a safety mechanism to be like, well, I'm I'm a straight a student with perfect attendance or, you know, I'm the captain of the swim team or I'm the whatever. So, if I if my score sheet is so high on all these levels, then how mad can you be if and when you find out that there's this other part of me, this queer part of me that, that to me at least felt like, oh, it's always a demerit. Oh, it's fun fact. You know, my sister and I had a really interesting relationship when we were young.

My sister was 2 years older than me. When my parents got divorced, my sister got really fat, and it was a tough time for, for a girl to be to be chubby. And so in the eighties I remember in the eighties early nineties, my grandmother's, like, negotiating with my sister. If you lose £5, I'll buy you this outfit or, you know, there was all this, like, constant negotiation. Like, she was being tortured, in a particular way.

And and then I was this really young, wiry, like anxious, like gay boy, thin, thin, thin. So I think my sister came to resent me a little bit because she had the struggle and I did not have the struggle. And so our whole, relationship through high school was a strained one at best. And then when I came out of the closet to her, which I think happened in, you know, mid college, my sophomore year or something or junior year. I don't remember.

I felt like our relationship had, like, suddenly improved. And I think part of it was that, you know, she had this image of Tim as like this, like thin, like straight a, like like the golden boy. And so it felt like suddenly a demerit against me, like made me more relatable. And so, you know, our relationship has has been better since that moment that I came out. She was actually super supportive, but there was this feeling that, oh, it's because, like, now I have a check mark against me, and so that's, like, more relatable.

I'm, like, in her mind back on her level.

I'm interested and would like like to unpack this a little bit. Like, you know, that's I think that's one way to look at it. When I when I was hearing this story, I was like, oh, is it because she's seeing that you have an identity beyond these achievements that you've had that has all of a sudden, you know, opened up space for something deeper and a deeper connection?

I hope so. I hope so. I mean, like, the thing is, like, none of us had the skill set to have, a deeper conversation. And I love my sister and I'm I'm like, I value our relationship. So I would I hope so.

And and the interesting thing is that might be true and we I don't know that I don't know that she would necessarily be aware of it if it is. And I would have to ponder on it now too. I hope I hope it is because that's really lovely. I really hope it is.

Because that's what I I think that this conversation is is centering around is that, like, when we can step back away from our identity being connected so deeply with our work or our achievements, it I think it really opens up space for something deeper and an an emotional connection, maybe even a spiritual connection because, like, it's not so self centered

anymore. You're blowing my mind. You're blowing it is possible that it's, like, just inherently more relatable to to finally learn an honest piece of information about a person that has nothing to do with what they're doing, but who they are. And that yeah. I mean and when I think about my sister in that story that I just told, it was in the context of me being a hyper overachiever.

So my grades were better than her. I did better in sports than her. I started excelling in dance and the musical in her. I started winning awards. Like, I started doing all of these things that probably felt, hard to live up to from her perspective, and I was never giving her any context of like, oh, I'm trying really hard because I'm terrified no one's gonna love me because I'm gay.

Right? And I I never said that to her. So how can I expect her to, like, know that? So she's sort of like, oh, this overachieving, you know, younger sibling of mine, blah blah blah, and then I tell her a truth, and maybe she could relax in that truth. I really actually really hope that's true because that's, like I'm feeling, like, a little warm in my in my midline right now just thinking about thinking about that because, I've never thought about it before.

I've only ever thought of it as, you know, is it more relatable if I have a demerit? But, like, oh, maybe it's more relatable because I have a truth, and there's something inherent about truth that we can that we can feel and trust. You know?

I hope so. And I maybe maybe send her this episode

and then have the conversation.

Yeah. The the circle podcast.

Bringing families together.

Right. But I think about, like, when I came out to my brother, I was 23, 24, and it was an accident at a bar. I had come out to a friend, and he and I were at the the bar grabbing our drink order. And then no. It was the opposite.

So, my brother and I were at the bar grabbing drinks, and then my friend came from behind me and was, like, so, Eric, how's your out life going? And me and my brother just, like, looked at each other. And I was, like, oh, shit. And I was, like, well, hey, Fred. I'm gay.

And, like, without, like, any other words, we just, like, he, like, flagged down the bartender, grabbed, like, grabbed their attention, and she brought over I think we were drinking Jamieson. That was our drink of choice at the time.

Yeah, brah.

Yeah. 22 shots of Jamieson and probably a doctor McGillicuddy's too because I loved you I used to do a fire and ice chaser. So I was like, doctor McGillicuddy's down as the chaser to, like, cool it all down. Anyway, there's a reason I'm sober.

I know. I was like, I'm feeling heartburn to listen to the story.

Anyway, so we, like, locked eye contact. We did our our shot, and he just, like, looked at me and was like, I'm proud of you. And we had had such resentment in our lives leading up to that. I think very similar to, when I hear you say with your sister, like, I had an older brother, and I was the overachieving younger sibling. Right?

Like, it was like, I could almost do no wrong because I was, like, had the perfect grades, like, you know, with, like, perfect attendance and, like, you know, we always showed up and, like, you know, like, was buttoned up, and it's, you know, there probably was a part of him that, like, maybe resented that a little bit, but I don't think that, like, when I came out, I don't think it was anything other than, like, oh, thank God I get to see my my little brother, like, exactly as he is, and there's a celebration in that too, I think.

Well, that's beautiful. So I'm gonna find out. I I do I do feel compelled to tell you, like, my coming out story then if you're open to it. Yes, please. Because, you know, I went it's gonna be hysterical because I moved to New York City and attended NYU dance department, to be a professional dancer.

And so but the 1st year the 1st year of my, attendance in the school, I was still closeted, which it just feels like I was in the mecca of, like, safe spaces for for a gay boy. But I was still closeted. And, I went I went and I then at the, like, the end of that year and over the summer, I fell in love. I had my first great love. There was no question that I was like, good, good, good, gay.

Right? Like, you know, but, so I remember I came back to start our 2nd year and my friend, Kirsten, this, like, really fun, like, dyed haired, like, vegan dancer that lived in the East Village, she and I had, like, you know, formed a friendship. And so we were in ballet class, and I think it might have been the 2nd or third day where she said, you know, kind of loudly, she's like, she's like, oh, Tim's so much more fun now that he's out of the closet. And I just was like, okay. Like, I just, I just decided not to not to refute it.

And that was it. Mhmm. And then I was like so part of me part of me is like, oh, I wish I like to have this bold sort of like walk into the room and like throw my coat off and like I'm gay, you know, like have this no. I was like like, well, she just did it for me and it works. Mhmm.

So I don't think I ever told her how much I appreciated that moment. So if she's happening to listen to this, thank you for that. Then we went and then we did our ballet class. Like, we just the teacher walked in, like, 20 seconds later and it was like, okay. Demi demi grande.

Demi demi grande.

I mean, sometimes we wanna give people, like, the, you know, the respect of, like, oh, I'm not gonna out this person, but sometimes people need a little little push. Like, my my friend that came up from behind me, like like, he did not have malice in his heart.

No. Of course not.

Yeah. He was he was just trying to celebrate me, and then by doing so, he kinda pushed me over another edge. Right? Like, I was like, well, I wasn't ready to come out to my brother yet, but here we are. Let's go.

What's an interesting thing about truth? I think in both of these examples, the truth was spoken and then the choice was, acknowledge it or deny it. And denying it or lying feels terrible. And I think queer people are pretty familiar with that when you're like, oh, I'm like, you know, there was a long time where I'm like, oh, I have to hide in very strategic ways and it's sort of like always this, like, mild manipulation. And then sometimes you're like, okay.

I just wanna I just wanna live in the truth and feel so much more comfortable there. And, you know, some acknowledgment that a lot of the reason that happened is because of these cultural expectations. Like, is it safe for me to be myself? So luckily for both of us in these in these examples, it was safe. I was I was about to start ballet class at NYU in the East Village surrounded by, like, you know, hippie vegans and, like, other other queer people.

So, yes, it was safe for me and there so then I could relax. So it's not always safe for everyone. Not it's not always the right idea for every person depending on where they are. Safety first.

Absolutely. I mean, like, finding comfort and just being allowed to, like, be yourself without, like, a role or a title to lean on. I think, like, that's that's the goal here for for me anyway, is that, like, I have wrapped so much of myself around, like, what I do that there is a discomfort for me. And I know that I recognize that when I'm just trying to be myself.

Mhmm. So I'm

not sure if somebody's gonna accept me or or, like, I'm gonna belong and, like but by by leaning on, you know, the the title, I can, like, hope to gain somebody's respect. Mhmm. I can hope to, you know, get a little admiration, get a little bit of acceptance. Oh, you work in tech? I work in tech.

Okay. Like, we can be together versus, like, if I, you know, am just like myself, like, who I am, this being. Right? Like, is this being going to be accepted just as they are?

Well, and, like, the vulnerability to be like, you can have an opinion about my job, and I can agree or disagree. You can have an opinion about my chosen hobbies or, you know, whatever. But, but if I'm going to tell you an inherent part of me, like, oh, I'm a, I'm an inherently, emotional person. And then you have an opinion about that. It's more vulnerable because I'm, I'm sharing with you something deep about me and, and it's just a more frightening, more frightening place to live.

Absolutely.

Actually, I just had a hit that like when I first moved to Provincetown, I actually like hid what I did because I was a remote tech worker moving into a town where remote tech workers were eating up all of the real estate. We were taking up the apartments. We were making it a more expensive place to live.

Was this after COVID? Right? Yeah.

It was after COVID. And like there's many places in the United States and around the world that have experienced this. The emigration of remote tech workers out of cities into small towns. So it's like we bring our tech salaries to these places. We bring our, like, mindsets, and, like, all of a sudden, it's like, you know, the the culture of that place is gonna change.

The economy of that place is gonna change. The, ability to find affordable housing in that place is going to change. And so, I moved to this town and actually, like, hid part of that identity out of fear of, like, not belonging. And so, that's really where I started to push myself to be like, oh, well, I'm a small business owner in town. You know, so like at that point, I was like launching a clothing line, and then I was starting to incubate the idea for my storefront.

And, like, that became my identity so that I could, so I could tell people that I participated in town and I wasn't just a consumer of the town. I didn't just live in this town to consume it. I lived in this town to participate in it.

So you're making me think about this tenant of men's work and oftentimes when we are in partner practice with other men, we are being reminded that this man in front of you wants nothing from you. That like no one wants anything from anyone else except their fullness. So I don't I don't need anything from you. I just want you to be your fullness, your fullest version of you and that's all you really want from me. And that's what I'm thinking about in these, in these moments of, you know, we are in a culture where what can I get?

What can you offer? Like what are our shields and guards around who and how we are? And can we start to work towards this place of I'm gonna be unapologetically me and you can be unapologetically you. And if we really agree to I don't need or want anything from you. If I can be there without agenda, then a lot of this stuff doesn't matter.

And then what matters is how are we together? How do you feel when you're with me? Because if you if I make you feel good, safe, heard, valued, then, you probably don't care how expensive the meal is we're having. Right? And this isn't to say that we can't enjoy fine things or that, you know, we shouldn't work hard to have great careers and put a lot of pride in the stuff that we do.

And provide for our families.

Yeah. All of that. But but it but it it can come from a place of well, if I'm doing it, it's from a sense of purpose, a sense of deep meaning, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a value of mine. I could lose this job and still feel valuable, loved, needed, wanted, safe, protected. I mean, all the things.

And and then, you know, full disclosure, I still have a tendency to be, hyper overachiever. I'm still working on this.

It's a practice.

It's a practice and it's still really hard sometimes. Like, will will you love me if I'm not? Excellent. So there should be a totally different episode about limiting beliefs. Or did we do one?

We scratched the surface of limiting beliefs and really just focused around, like, am I good enough?

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, there's a there's a

catalog of of limiting beliefs we can open up.

Yeah. So we could we could go into that. But, like, one of my core limiting beliefs is, I have to be exceptional to be loved. And that goes, like, so well, then I have to demonstrate my how I'm exceptional in the way that the culture around me will get it. So they like, it it would be wild if I was like, oh, I'm I'm really empathetic.

Like, I'm very compassionate and I care about you a lot. Those are metrics that I think lots of people would be like, that sounds great, but I don't know what to do. But if I can say, Oh, I make a lot of money or I've created a new business or I've, you know, launched a thing, a podcast, you know, that's I think easier. So when we, in conclusion, when we think about all of this stuff, it doesn't surprise me. It shouldn't surprise anyone why we do it, why we put so much value on what it is we do because we've been trained to and we live in a world that can recognize it easily.

And when we're wanting to be seen, then obviously I'm incentivized to give you something you can see. And so the work becomes getting to know ourselves authentically and then maybe starting to show that more and more and more and see what comes.

Yeah. It's like when I get asked, like, why men's work? Like, why am I passionate about this? And it's it is to sum up what you were saying. Like, I want to be able to accept and love myself for exactly who I am so that I can accept and love others for exactly who they are without need to change, without need to alter or fix, can just love.

Love me for me and love you for you and want nothing from you except for your fullness.

Mhmm. Yeah.

Like Yeah. That to me is my pursuit of this work. And I, like, I I see it, like, I feel it when in men's spaces, like, that's that's what I feel. Like, when we were on retreat, that's what I felt. I was like, oh, I am seen.

I am accepted exactly as I am. Mhmm. Mhmm. That's a really fucking good feeling.

And if we and if we all practiced it, like, how how much of an impact it would have so fast.

Definitely we saw that we see the impact in these spaces, right? And that's that's where the hope is that we can bring it outside of these spaces. That's the hope.

Yeah. So when you are when you are wrestling with relationship issues and you are riddled with sadness, but you feel like you have no safe space for it. And then suddenly you're surrounded by a bunch of brothers who want nothing from you, who can look you in the eye and tell you I've been there too. I felt that same thing. Healing.

The opportunity to experience and then learn and grow and move and yeah. So so yes.

Well, but then I would like to invite you to close this out. Are you feeling complete?

I am feeling complete. I'm feeling like there's we've talked a lot about a lot of things that we could go into greater detail, but, I feel very complete with this conversation right now. So let's take a moment and close our eyes. And with that appreciation and gratitude, I wish you and I and everyone listening safety, connection, community, love, play. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken.

Uh-huh. If you'd like to stay connected to us between episodes, please follow us on Instagram at queer men's embodiment. Like, subscribe, rate, and review wherever you find podcasts. We'll see you again soon.