Introduction to Men’s Work and Queer Embodiment

Welcome to The Circle. A queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. My name is Timothy Bish.

And my name is Eric Bomyea, And together, we intend to engage in an ongoing conversation of men's work for queer men. Welcome to episode 1. I'm really excited to be here with you, Tim, and I am just, like, spilling over with joy that this is something that we get to do together. And that it's it's something that I get to do with somebody that is a friend, a mentor, and somebody that I deeply appreciate.

So thank you for for being here with me. I'm excited to dive in.

Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping this idea come to life. And obviously, having these conversations is one of my favorite things to do. The idea that this conversation can be of benefit to others, fills my heart. So I'm excited to get started.

Yeah. Let's dive in.

So Let's dive in.

Episode 1, we're gonna take it to the top and really, explore what is men's work and what is embodiment and why it's important. And then we're gonna go into why specifically it's important for queer men and what our hope is for this podcast.

Mhmm.

So I'd like to begin with understanding, what is men's work?

One easy sort of elevator pitch way of saying it is men's work is a an exploration, a practice, a conversation that helps men get out of their heads and into their bodies. That helps men to connect to sources of information and wisdom and insight and intuition that allow them to live more authentically. I personally like to think of men's work as human work. An opportunity for a person to get to know and work with the entirety of their own human experience. And it's men's work because it's done in a particular context where the people that are doing the work have a shared cultural expectation.

They have experienced these expectations or these pressures to be a certain way. And so they get to work through those shared pressures in an effort to be more authentic, more honest, more vulnerable, more able to connect, more able to express.

So what I just heard you say is that one of the reasons why men would do this work is to, or engage in this work is to more fully express themselves and to open themselves more honestly. In what ways has this work helped you more fully able to express yourself?

The practice of men's work in my experience has allowed me to connect more fully with others. First, by giving me a more full understanding of my own way of being and how I engage and how I share. My initial entry way into men's work started in a sharing based circle. And so in these circles, what would happen is a man would be allotted a certain amount of time and from in that time he could, feel into his own experience about any number of things, share that, the men the other men would be listening, and at the end of that chair would offer reflections. In the giving of reflections, I started to realize that, many people are not totally understood all the time.

Which is making me laugh now because, I would have the experience of I'm being misunderstood and so it was sort of this all or nothing kind of situation. And it felt very lonely because I think I felt like a gay a gay boy or a queer person who was like inherently misunderstood. And then you start to realize lots of people are misunderstood, lots of people are having to hone their ability to clearly express their own internal experience, and other people are honing their ability to hear and digest that experience. So what it's done for me in that way is rather than any time I confront a moment where I feel like someone hasn't understood me, what I would what I used to do would be question whether or not I was making sense, whether or not I'm crazy, or whether or not my presence or contribution has any value here. And now I'm realizing, oh, it still might.

And it might take a little time. It might take time for them. It might take time for me. And I shouldn't just run away. So I can I can allow myself to engage in situations where previously I'd be like, you don't get it and lots of people haven't gotten it my whole life so I'm out of here?

And instead you're like, no, maybe we just need a little more time and and effort and Compassion. Compassion and massaging of communication to get to a place where there can be greater shared understanding. These to me feel like powerful things in my own life where I've softened my own self judgment and my judgment or expectations of others. And then allowed me to stay in connection or in relationship that I might otherwise have wanted to run away from. And through that process, a lot of insight came.

Insight as to how it is that someone is heard, how it is that someone connects to their own internal experience, and a perspective about how you were experienced by others when you're sharing. So one thing I learned is that not all people are as instantly connected to their own internal emotional experience as others. Right? So, as someone who feels pretty strongly connected to my own internal experience, I think what I would do is I would feel misunderstood by a lot of people. And then I realize, oh, it might take that person.

It's funny because, my husband is an example of this. It might take that person longer to sit with what I've said and wrap their head around it and get to a place of understanding. And so one of the perspectives is, oh, we might be moving at different tempos, not good or bad, just different tempos. And it's empowering for me to not jump to a conclusion if you can't immediately understand what I'm saying because I understand it.

What I'm hearing is, like, instead of jumping to conclusions about what other people might be interpreting or even a conclusion about your own ability to communicate, like, bring curiosity. Right? Like like, what's not coming across? What is this person hearing or not hearing, and how can I be curious about the way in which I'm communicating to improve that or to offer something alternative?

And also wanted to bring some compassion. So as a young gay boy, as a queer person, I had the world telling me a lot. You're you're different, you're different, you're different. And I think a lot of queer people, especially in their youth, have had that experience. So it's not surprising that you're like, well you've been telling me how different I am over and over and over for years years years, and now it's easy for me to have one thing that reaffirms, oh I am in fact different and I can just rest on that.

So this becomes a consciousness practice, especially I think for queer people because you have to remember, okay, that is a message that I received and a habit I can easily fall into. Is it serving me now? Or is there more gold available if I'm if I'm able to do the work it takes to step out of that and try to meet people? And that's been some of the goal that I have found. Oh, if I if I can step out of that trigger, which is understandable and, you know, present for a lot of good reasons, if I can step out of it, is there gold, are there connections, are there understandings, are there insights, is there growth and possibility and opportunity on the other side?

And my experience has been almost always, yes, there are.

There are. Yeah. And what are some of the ways in which we train that consciousness to turn on that curiosity and to turn on that that, awareness?

I love that question so much because it brings us back to this, we we can train it by first noticing what's happening in our bodies. Right? So when I start to feel a tightening, when I start to feel, sometimes it happens in my throat or in my abdomen, those are signs, oh, something's happening, like a shutting down, a defensiveness, a protective mechanism, and when I can get clear about that, oh, I'm noticing something happening, why? Oh, I'm guarding myself. Oh, I'm feeling threatened.

Oh, I'm feeling and then so from that awareness I shine the light of like, so what am I feeling and why do I think I'm feeling it? I can then make some decisions about I'm feeling this because it's an old pattern I'm falling into, or I'm feeling this because I am actually there are still times where you're like, oh, this person is not meeting me or they're meeting me with a little bit of aggression or they're not being mutual in this way. I get to make some decisions. So it'd be like, oh, this tightening in my abdomen is telling me to protect myself and I wanna consciously choose to do that. Cool.

Still really powerful. But other times, oh, I'm having this feeling because of this old pattern, and the person in front of me isn't the threat that I'm responding to. I can meet them if I can pause and reflect and then offer and take that brave leap into benefit of

the doubt. We tend to jump to, like, malice when most of the time it's just mismanagement. Right? Like or, like, miss intention. It's like most people are not walking through this this this earth right now with the intention to harm.

Most people want to be happy and want happiness for other people. And, yeah, sometimes we jump to our conclusions. Going back to what you said, like, you know, we we are quick to jump to conclusions. And part of the practice is, can we bring consciousness and curiosity before jumping to that conclusion? Or even if we do jump to the conclusion, can we still bring that awareness to, like, why did I just jump there?

Mhmm. Right? Before I take further action. Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't I don't have to necessarily fall into old pattern. I can start to create a healthier pattern of choice making.

So this practice of awareness, bringing awareness to what previously had been subconscious behavior, bringing a little bit of consciousness to it, is one practice that we do. What are some of the other tools and techniques that we engage in that are a benefit to men?

So there are so many ways. And I would like to just take a moment to say that I have had the luxury of a few really powerful teachers. And there are a variety of ways to approach this work. Some of those approaches can be or can look a little bit more spiritual, a little bit more earthy or, devotional. Some of them can feel a little bit more I don't know if corporate is the right word, but a little bit more mainstream, a little bit more sort of nuts and

bolts. Approachable.

Approachable maybe. Yeah. When we think about like, oh, we can talk about it from a like a neurology perspective. And so I say that only in that, I want to encourage people to find the way that works for them. And like full disclosure, my teacher and the path that I'm on, I'm a yogi and I'm not I don't shy away from things that feel yogic or shamanic or that kind of thing.

But it doesn't need to be a part of it for you to get a lot of benefit. So these practices, a lot of it starts with simple inquiry. The question of well, the question of what am I feeling, for example. What I've learned with that very simple question inviting men into the opportunity to ask themselves what they're feeling in their physical body. And it is, surprising sometimes how challenging that can be.

It's challenging, I think, because we haven't been given a lot of opportunity to do that as a practice. Mhmm.

And I think if we can go back to, the why this work is needed is you mentioned that, you know, there are certain conditionings that we've been taught through and, you know, the expectations of what it means to be a man and how we've been really, trained to express certain parts of ourselves, certain emotions like anger and rage. And we've been, really encouraged to suppress others. Sadness and, despair, like, you know, we get told a lot of the times to, like, suck it up, be a man. Totally. And what does that do to boys?

What does that do to young boys that are trying to grow up that at one point were exuberant and having a good time and could express the full range of their emotions, are now being told that in order to be a certain thing, in order to be a man, they have to drop parts of themselves.

Well, it might even go further and create a sense of mistrust because I've had this personal experience when I was a kid where I remember, something happened and it hurt. I remember feeling discomfort. I was young, so I can't remember exactly what it was. I cut myself or I stubbed my toe or whatever. And I remember, someone in my family telling me that that didn't hurt and that it shouldn't hurt.

And I think that can be a very confusing moment where, oh, well, the experience I'm having and what my guardians are telling me are in conflict. If you've learned to suppress feelings like pain or discomfort that isn't big enough to be welcomed, or sadness, or embarrassment or whatever we might judge as not a manly emotion, it doesn't mean that we don't still experience it or have a cascade of events and consequences to it. It just means that we're not aware of it. Mhmm. And so then it begins to happen to us.

I think what I've seen a lot in men's work is men start to peel some of those layers away. And only when you can start to see what's operating within you can then you start to consciously participate in its operation and direct it towards your purpose, your mission, your goal. Otherwise, at some point you become a reaction. So I have sadness in me or I have embarrassment in me or I have discomfort in me. And if I'm unaware of it, I can't see it anymore.

It could be influencing how I am being and how the person I am showing up as without me really being able to influence it consciously at all. Right.

So we've created these blockages of emotion that are running havoc on a man's nervous system that are controlling him in in in in putting him into this reactionary place instead of a place where he can sit with it, experience it, and then respond accordingly. And the the hurt that comes from, and the pain that can that can be inflicted both internally and externally from those blocked emotions is a big reason for this this work. Right? Like, what happens when men continue to suppress these emotions and they channel instead into rage, and then they're not able to control that rage because they don't have a relationship with their emotional body and they don't have that ability to control their nervous systems. We start to see violence.

We start to see Dysregulation. Dysregulation. Absolutely.

Mhmm. Absolutely. It is a big problem and it is one that because anger is sort of culturally accepted for men, I think it is one that we ignore until it becomes really problematic. So a man getting angry, oh, that makes sense. And then when it becomes so dysregulated or so unskilled that it becomes violence, spousal abuse or, you know, self harm or child abuse or whatever it might be, then it's a problem.

Well, that person is without the tools necessary. And I think this work is an an attempt at offering men tools to understand. Because the thing that I'd like to really get through in this podcast is this idea of we cannot avoid our human experience. It is what we are having. We are having a human experience.

You can pretend that the human male doesn't experience or shouldn't experience certain things, but that isn't true. And so is it not better or not better? Is it not more powerful, more conscious, more intentional, more purposeful to be able to operate with the fullness of the human experience rather than pretending that a part of it doesn't exist because it becomes inconvenient or unwelcomed? And I would say that this is a this is a journey to true authentic power. Think about any time you've ever been upset or bothered.

You can really only control what you're doing, how you're feeling, how you're reacting, the choices that you make. Absolutely. And this idea of external power being like, it's manly for me to be able to control you, which looks like domination, it isn't real. The truth is, my my authentic power resides in my ability to feel and experience what I'm feeling and experiencing, and then hopefully hold that consciously and then make a choice from that place. So when we do this work, it can seem because it's oftentimes very like feelings, emotions based, sensation based, intuition based.

It can feel like it's not about power. It absolutely is. Do you have the power to hold challenge or trigger without collapsing and then make a choice that is in greatest service to you and to the world around you, whether that's your your your spouse, your children, your community, your coworkers, whatever? Or are you a reaction that crumbles and reacts? Right.

Can you expand your awareness to be able to hold the fact that life is gonna happen? Life is gonna happen to all of us, all around us. Life is full of challenges. People are full of challenges, and we can walk through this world and we can blame others for the things that we're feeling. Or we can take accountability for the fact that, like you said, our emotions are our responsibility.

They're generated from within us. There may be stimulus externally that, you know, is stimulating those feelings, but we own those. Mhmm. They are our responsibility. They're coming from within us.

And the more responsibility that we can take of those and the more awareness we can bring to them, the more distance and space we create between stimulus and response. When there is a strong stimulus, and you talk about like meeting edges and meeting limits, right, like those those are stimulus. That's an external stimulus that's arising that we then are, with these practices, starting to train ourselves to sit more with, to be a little bit more comfortable at that edge so that when they do arise, we can say like, okay, I know that I can take space. I know that I can take a beat. I know that I can handle this.

Or the wisdom to accept that, like, I can't handle this, so I actually need to take physical space. I actually need to go take a pause.

Right. So beautifully said. So getting back then to your original question, the the practices, most of which are about starting to look and understand what are emotional sensational experiences. And these practices can go from as simple as inquiry and observation all the way to what you were just referring to, putting ourselves in very, very challenging situations, whether it's through posture or through intense breath or a deep journey. And beginning to expand our capacity to be at that discomfort without without crumbling.

So I think in a separate episode, we can talk about a variety of like the practices. But they all, in my experience, boil down to this, understanding what we're feeling and expanding our capacity to hold that without collapse. Absolutely. And to negotiate a little bit of collapse if it happens. So the collapse doesn't turn into a wrecking ball.

Right. Collapse, you know, collapse can turn into, I need a moment to collect myself. I've observed that happen a lot. And it's a really powerful part of the practice because as with any athlete, sometimes you try a new skill And oftentimes before you've mastered it, you do it, many times too much, too little, you know. This wouldn't be any different.

And we need a safe space, a safe container into which we can have that exploration. And so there's a lot of value in that too to be like, I did just collapse a little, but I'm aware of my collapse and there is a support system around me so that when I come back, I have more to to approach the same thing with.

Absolutely. The the humility to accept that Humility. Yeah. That you that you've made a mistake and that you're seeking growth, that you're seeking change, that you're taking something that you recognize that is not serving you or serving others. And you're saying, I'm gonna look at this, and I'm gonna own this, and I'm going to, put my best foot forward, and I'm gonna and I'm gonna practice.

And I'm going to, you know, develop my relationship with myself a little bit more and my relationship with others so that I'm showing up most fully that I can in any moment and and owning that. Beautifully said.

Yeah. Yeah.

So we talked about why men would want to engage in this type of work. Why would queer men specifically want to engage in this?

I believe that queer men can benefit from this work because I believe that queer men have been wrestling with this concept of masculinity, femininity, masculine expression, feminine expression, who they are, like their their their innate personhood, and how they fit in. I believe that these are questions that queer people have had to ask themselves, through their whole life. And I think I'll speak from my own personal experience here. When I was a young closeted gay boy, anytime I exhibited something that wasn't, typical, you know, I I wasn't prone to, sort of contact aggressive sports. I was more expressive.

I was more, you know, rhythmic. I was more artistic. I was definitely more sensitive. It would immediately be a comparison that I was that I was a woman. And of course, in that context, to be a woman was bad.

Right. Right?

Go back to the patriarchy. Right?

Yeah. And and massage me like, I I I actually now, like, the as I get older, comparisons to women make me happy because I, like, I I just have so many women in my life that I that I respect and who have shaped me and have, you know, shown a kind of strength that I think is just so admirable. But in that time, it was it was like poison, you know? Because I'm like, it wasn't just about like preference, it was about safety. To be like, oh, if if if I continue to behave these ways, I'm putting a target on my back.

You know, I was such a small little boy, like physically so small, that like I had a lot of fear about like what what the consequences were. Like any of the football players in my high school could have done essentially whatever they wanted. I, you know, they were just mountains of people comparatively. And so so it became a safety issue. And so having to work hard to not to not voluntarily bring someone to make that conclusion.

So that then you get into like hiding, code shifting, so that you can live your life without, you know, being attacked.

Yeah. I think a lot of listeners can relate to that. Thank you for sharing. It is a survival mechanism to see, you know, how society is expecting others to behave, how society is expecting your peers to be. And when you don't fit that, when it is so not you to be a certain way, you start to fear.

You start to fear like, oh my gosh. I don't belong. I don't fit in. Mhmm. And if we take this to, like, tribal era, right, like, if you don't fit in, you get left behind.

And what happens to people that get left behind? They get eaten by wolves. Mhmm. Right? So there's a real primal, like, fear that we feel as young kids when we don't fit in or when we don't belong.

And so this idea of being told to act like a man, be a man, don't be a girl, like stop crying, you are acting like a girl, man up.

Yeah.

Right? Or you are dancing around like a girl. Now you are starting to be scared and you may start to question, okay, like, so am I not a man, am I not a boy? Like what is happening here? And so, if you are, if you are, you, if you have the space to like be able to like like, explore those things, you can, like, if you have a nurturing environment where you can, like, deconstruct gender norms and, like, gender expectations in a healthy way, like, great, like, like, let's have that conversation with kids.

But a lot of people don't have that. And so they start to really internalize it and and start to struggle with their identities and may start to put up walls and may start to do the code shifting, may start to, like, try to chameleon in from a place of, like, trying to force self preservation. Mhmm. Trying to protect themselves.

And just quickly I'd like to add that, you know, a lot of the perpetrators of this, in my life were actually adults. And the one of the fears was that some of the adults, would not have minded if I had gotten beaten up because there was this sort of idea of like, what's for his own good? Mhmm. We're sort of manning him up by toughening

him up. Right?

And so there's a real it's really tricky to to trust then if your caretakers are gonna keep you safe if part of that safety includes you getting beaten up for your own good. You know, to toughen you.

You start to think I deserve this.

Yeah. And so I think a lot of queer people can have that experience. And I think it's important. So one of the big things that I gained from men's work and one of the reasons I entered men's work in the first place was because I was afraid of straight men. And when I say that, there was a time when I was actually like afraid of straight men.

And then as I got older, it was the a challenge of trusting them to be like, oh, they they have presented themselves to me and so so frequently as dangerous, as impulsive, as quick to like do things. And I realized, you know, when I started this work, I'm like, oh, I need to confront that. One of the gifts I've received from men's work is realizing, that isn't actually as true as it seemed. Even though the seeming when I was a child, was really real. And I started to be able to soften this idea of like, oh, there are straight men that are like willing to meet me and value me and love me as I am and not ask me to, edit myself or change myself for them.

Even even appreciate what it is I can bring. So that's been a really beautiful gift. I think, I think a lot of queer men could probably benefit from that same idea. I guess, you know, it'll depend on where you live and what your contact is. But to me, I have since made some really strong, powerful friendships that I find comforting and inspiring.

That maybe 5 years ago would not have been possible.

So we talked about the acceptance that you can find in these spaces. But there are also some challenges in men's workspaces for queer men. What are some of those that you've experienced as you've gotten into this work?

So my personal experience is that, queer men in general have a tendency or ability to ebb and flow between the masculine and the feminine. And those are terms that will probably flush out in greater detail at a different episode. But but if that if those words are triggering or uncomfortable, people can feel free to insert yin and yang, sun and moon, alpha and omega. It's really The poles of the poles. Like ends of the poles upon us on a spectrum upon which we all exist.

And that we all sort of like ebb and flow. So masculine and feminine really quickly do not, necessarily correspond to gender or, sex or genitals or anything like that. But anyway, so maybe I'll use yin and yang. I feel like queer men have this ability to ebb and flow between the yin and the yang differently than many of the cis, gendered straight brothers that I have. And mainly because the majority of them would are masculine identified.

And again, we'll go into that later. So sometimes I think there is a an awareness or an understanding that is hard for our cis gendered straight brothers to understand. And that one example, because I identify as that sort of like neutrally energized person who can ebb and flow, I was in this men's work group and this man had shared about his wife and he's doing his 10 minute chair and I'm like, oh, I can completely relate to her experience based on what he's sharing with me. And I, and I gave him a reflection and it was as if and this was on Zoom, but it, you know, I gave the reflection and I looked around the screen. I'm the only queer person in the room.

I looked around the screen and it was as if I had said it in, you know, like another language. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember being like, like I don't know what to do. And like no one knew what to say.

And then I was like, oh, this is one of those moments where my perspective, not that it wasn't valued, but like it was incomprehensible in that moment.

It's so new to them at that point. Totally.

And it made me feel what made me feel alone, it also made me wonder, like, did that makes, like, did that make sense? I was like

Start to dowry. Start to question.

Totally. My pattern was to start to wonder if there was a place for me, which is why we're doing this podcast. Mhmm. Because the truth is that what I offered was needed.

Mhmm.

And as with anything, we've talked about it, when you practice something, chances are you don't master it the first time you encounter, whatever that thing is. Right?

But the expectations sometimes are that like

Well, that's the expectation. Right? To be like, I need to be like good at this immediately and not have to ask for help. Right? So in that moment, I I questioned myself and wondered, is there is there a place for me here because they can't understand me?

And I still feel like I have to honor no matter no matter how intentional we were all being. I felt I felt lonely and misunderstood. That was the experience that I had in that moment. And luckily, I had the tools and the wherewithal to like continue and not let that run me out of it. But, that I think is a challenge for queer men.

I also think another challenge for queer men is that our communities, our family structures, our friendships, they can they can be quite different.

Mhmm.

And so, you know, when I when I was in New York City many, many years ago, I wanted a therapist. I remember asking my therapist like, are you gay? And the therapist was like, well, why is that important? And I remember saying, it isn't I don't need to know I don't need to know information about you, but I want to know that when I talk about certain things, I wanna know that you get it. I wanna know that you understand what I'm what I'm saying.

And I think this is can be like that similar feeling of like, oh, well, there are there are components of my life and the way that I live and the community in which I live that feel really different to them. And so having to be patient with yourself to present what that is with and allow them time to kind of wrap their head around it, that can be a real challenge. And I think that men's workspaces can be fruitful containers to bring this exploration. My personal experience is a lot of this work that I've done initially started on my own in response to the insults or the bullying or the, or the threats or the misunderstandings. And I think men's work can create a context and a container of safety where this exploration can be conscious and shared and supportive and allow the queer man and his experience to start to settle and clarify itself in a way that is of service to that person.

And if a queer man wanted to start to begin this exploration, how would you recommend they get started?

Well, I feel very happy to say that every men's work organization that I've been involved with has welcomed the contribution of queer men and has tried to expand that. So the primary organization that I work with is Embodied Masculine, run by Amir Khaleghi. You could go to embodiedmasculine.com and look for some information about the weekly men's group. Men's wisdom work run by Zat Baraka does online men's, groups. And there was a time when I was, running an LGBTQ men's group through that organization, so I don't know if they're doing it currently, but I suspect they're gonna start it again.

Other men's workspaces like, Sacred Sons. I believe it's the Mankind Project. I believe there's another organization called Everyman. These could also be resources for for any person. And also, Google your local area for potential, groups that are available there.

And then if you're in Provincetown, you can also join us at the circle.

Yeah. Anytime, somebody's in Provincetown, definitely come and check out the men's embodiment circle, facilitated by mister Tim Bish over here. And and soon facilitated by yourself? Co facilitated possibly or

substitute. Mhmm.

We covered a lot of ground today, and we are just grazing the surface. We went through what is men's work, why it's important, the benefit that, many men can can gain from this type of work. And we also started to scratch the surface of a lot of other topics that we're really excited to dive into in future episodes. So with that, thank you all for listening and for for being a part of the circle.

It is with deep appreciation and gratitude that we thank you so much for joining us. And as we leave here now, I wish you all brotherhood, connection, authenticity, and expression. And with these words, our container is open, but not broken.