Meet Your Hosts!

Welcome to The Circle, a queer men's conversation about men's work, men's embodiment practice, men's spirituality, and men's personal growth with an emphasis on how queer men can participate, benefit, serve, and lead in these spaces. Hi. I'm Timothy Bish, a cohost of The Circle Podcast.

And I'm Eric Bomyea. Welcome back. And we decided that we wanted to record this special episode for you all to get to know us a little bit more, to give you a little bit about our backstory, our histories, and what brought us to, today. So with that, are you ready to go all in?

I am ready to go all in.

Let's do this.

Let's do it.

So, Tim, do you wanna tell us a little bit about where you're from?

Yes. I am originally from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, born and raised, and I lived there for the first 18 years of my life. From there, I moved to New York City and was fortunate enough to live in New York City for 25 years. So I really checked off that box. And now for the last two and a half to three years, I've been living full time in Provincetown.

How about you, Eric?

So I'm originally from upstate New York, but not Yonkers as, like, a lot of people who only know New York State as New York City. So I'm actually above even further above Albany, there's an entire section of New York called the Adirondack Park. And then above that, there's a sliver of land between New York and Canada. And that's where I'm from. My high school was about 2 miles away from the Canadian border, more cows than people.

It was really middle of nowhere. And so that's where I'm originally from. And then I went to school about an hour away, Still small town, rural, middle of nowhere.

So that little slice of land that you just described where your hometown exists, how far from Montreal is it?

Just about an hour. So, like, Montreal was our big city. So I was like, I could get to Burlington, Vermont, or Montreal. So those were, like, the the big cities nearby us. And the way that I like to, like, measure distance or, like, at least the the way that I think about where people are from and, like, how they perceive distance is by, do they think of the number of minutes that it'll take them to get there as, like, miles?

So for me, like, it was about an hour and a half to get to both Montreal and Burlington because they're about 90 miles away. Right? So, like, because you could go on a, like, 60 miles per hour. Right? So that's kinda how I think about it.

Well, versus, like, people in the city, like, if it's gonna take you an hour to get someplace, it could be 2 miles away.

Oh, and, like, in New York City. Right. Yeah. Totally.

Right? So, like, that's kind of one of those, like, you know, interesting nuances of, like, people that, like, lived a long time in cities or were born in cities and people that, like like, everything that I had to do was, like, a distance away. Like, our nearest movie theater was an hour away because it was 60 miles away. Eventually, I ended up moving to the city because I was craving community. I was craving something that I just didn't have in upstate New York.

I had just come out as as gay and was, like, really struggling to find connection. So I, packed up everything that I owned in a car, and it was me, a blow up mattress, my mom and my friend. We fit into my Dodge Dart and oh, and my dog, Julie Andrews. And Oh, really? Uh-huh.

Julie Andrews because she used to lift her leg to pee. So I always thought that she had, like, a little bit of, like, little confusion about, like, did she wanted, like, a boy dog or

Victoria then?

Like, like, Victor Victoria. Exactly.

Okay. Okay.

So that's right. So that's where Julie Andrews came from.

Got it. Yeah. Love

it. Yeah. One of my all time favorite movies. I love Victor Victoria. So, anyway, so, packed up everything that I that I owned into that car and just, like, moved to Boston.

I didn't know anyone. I, like, had barely secured an apartment. I didn't have a job. I had a little bit of savings where I was like, okay. Like, I can survive for a couple months, and then I just have to figure it out.

And so I landed in Boston the next morning, after we unpacked the car. My mom and my friend left. I gave my mom my car. I was like, here you go. Like, she took over the payments on us.

She was, like, good to go. So, like, literally, like, dropped me off and then just, like, went away. And, like, I just kinda, like, found myself. I was like, okay. Like, I'm gonna start over in a new city.

And I landed a job within a couple weeks. I was working at a political consulting firm, in Beacon Hill, doing graphic design, and I was working on more Healy's. At that point, she was running for attorney general, was working on her first campaign and helping, to raise the funds to to get her elected. And, yeah, I just, like, really submerged myself into Boston culture and just, like, you know, was there for a little over a year in that job and then moved on to, being a graphic designer at an advertising agency, and then got poached to go in house at a software company. So I got to, like, you know, bring in my my love of, like, deep tech, and as as well as my passion for creativity and, like, kinda marry those two worlds.

And my career really took off from there. It was a really great opportunity, and I've, just been going with that ever since. But then pandemic happened, and I had to take a real hard look where I was like, well, where do I wanna continue doing this work? And I was like, well, Provincetown seems like a nice place. Like, I, like, had been vacationing here and loved it.

And so, like, found a note I was on the ferry back to Boston. I'd come out here to, do a week remote, and I was on the ferry back to Boston with my my new dog, Goose. I think I have a history of, like, really good dog names. Julie Andrews and now Goose. Right?

Like, that's pretty good dog names.

Is that a is that an episode topic? Yeah. Like, good dog names? Because my dog name is pretty great, but we'll get there later. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so I was on the way back. I was on the ferry back, and I, just opened up Craigslist and saw an apartment and was like, let's do this. It was an 8 month rental, winter rental, and I was like, well, what's the worst that happens? So I did it and, like, been here ever since.

How often have you been visiting, before you came?

I had been in P town probably for, 4 or 5 years. Like, not consistently, but, like, you know, just coming every so often. But yeah. And during that time, like, I mean, like, I'm also gonna be very truthful with y'all. Like, during that time, like like, raging alcoholic.

Right? Like like, most people could not tell, but, like, I was drinking a lot. So, like, didn't matter what time of the day, what like like, I was always thinking about alcohol, always thinking about, like, where's my next drink, and, like, could barely be any place without alcohol. I actually remember once this is a little a little embarrassing, but, like, I'm gonna tell it anyway. When I was working on Maura Healey's campaign, like, after she, won the election, her and her partner invited the campaign team over to her house for Christmas.

And I was like, oh my gosh. Like like, feeling, like, really proud of myself within 9 months of being in Boston. I go from, like, not having a job to not knowing anyone to then being at the attorney general Lex townhouse for Christmas dinner. I don't remember being there. Blacked out.

So drunk. Blacked out. Yeah. And, like, like, that kind of behavior, like, continued, like, perpetually for for many years until about 2 years ago when I decided to stop drinking, which I think then brings us to, like, you know, the the next thing that I wanna talk about, which is, like, path to spirituality and personal growth. You know, I grew up in a a household devoid of religion, devoid of spiritual practice.

There wasn't a lot of, like, talk about it. And I actually like, I've, like, didn't have a an understanding. Like, I didn't know who Jesus was until, like, 4th grade, when, like, kids in my class started to go to, like, church school. And it was, like, in the middle of school, like, middle of the school day, they would take the kids out to go to the Catholic church for church school. I really don't know anything about this.

CCD. CCD. So Yeah.

So I was always, like, I was very confused because I was, like, separation of church and state? Like, how is this okay that these kids get to, like, go out of school? But, anyway, I was, like, a 4th grade, like like, anti establishment, like, little kid. And so just, like anyway, so what it did is it left me alone. Right?

I'd be like, where are all these like, where did everyone go? And it would just be, like, me and, like, maybe 1 or 2 other people. And, like, they'd come back and they'd, like, talk about Jesus. I was like, who is Jesus? I don't know who this person is.

Right? So, like, I really, like, didn't have that exposure growing up. I was really I was raised by my father. My father and my mother divorced when I was 2 years old. Yeah.

There's a lot to unpack here, and I don't know how, like, how much to share, but, like, there were they divorced. My my father, claimed custody, so he actually, like, took my mom to court to have full custody. And during that, like, really ugly custody battle, he accused her of being a lesbian. She was living with a a woman at the time. And in the nineties in upstate New York, that didn't fly.

And so my dad did get full custody, and so he also worked full time. We do really didn't have, like, a a lot of, like, caretaking. It was, like, it was a lot of, like, me raising myself or, like, my brother, being around. And so, like, there wasn't a there wasn't a lot of structure in the household. There wasn't a lot of, like, tradition or practices that, like, kind of, like, like, introduced me to some things that, you know, could have been helpful.

I actually do remember that my dad eventually later on started to get into, like, native American traditions. We lived, very close to a reservation. And so he actually started to go to, like, sweat lodges. And he invited me and my brother a couple of times, but I was so uncomfortable. Like, I'm a young gay boy, like like, super closeted, afraid of everything.

Like, I wouldn't, like, I wouldn't even get changed in the locker room. Like, I would bring my clothes in the lock in the locker room to the bathroom to get changed. I was so ashamed of my body. I was so ashamed to, like, see other men, see see other boys. And so, like, when when my dad invited me to, like, go to sweat lodge, I was like, so it's you and a bunch of half naked men sitting in a teepee sweating together?

No. Thanks. Right? Like, at that point, like like, I would have either gotten an erection or, like, or, like, something would have happened and it just, like, I just didn't feel comfortable. So I never ended up winning.

But, you know, today, I would probably do that. I would probably, like, be right up in there and, like, be like, yeah. Let's go. But, like, at that point, it wasn't. So, anyway, bringing it back to, like, you know, the spiritual journey, around the time of my sobriety, I really started to look at, you know, my relationship with something greater than myself.

I was realizing that, like, all of the harmful behavior that I was doing was in in service of, like, trying to fill a void. There was something deeply missing in my life, and I didn't know what it was. And it was through, the 12 step program. It was through therapy that I was able to really start to, like, tap into, like, oh, like, there may be something that I'm missing, and it may not be what I thought it was. And it's not gonna be, like, another, like, self help something or another.

It's not gonna be, like, this this whatever. It's it it's gotta come from inside of me. It's gotta come from a connection inside of me to something different. And so and that really has just been part of my exploration now is really exploring, like, how can I develop a relationship with my own spirituality? And, like, I don't have a current practice of, like, I believe in a God or anything like that.

Like, you know, in my 12 step program, like, I have been able to accept that, like, my higher power right now is my body. And there's a lot about my body that I can't control, and that I am kind of, like, in service to. And, actually, we, Tim and I just came back from a cold plunge before doing this episode, and it was one time last winter that I was doing a solo plunge that I had that realization. I had the realization that my body was my my higher power because I was in the ocean and I was like, wow. Like, here I am in the ocean, cold, nervous, a little scared and excited.

And, like, my body's still working. My heart is still pumping. My heart is still doing the thing. And, like, no matter what I do, what what I think, right, my heart is gonna keep going. And, like, that amount of, like, surrender to something that, like, I couldn't control really was a catalyst for me to, like, really start to step into more of this work.

And then moving into how I found out about men's work, it was actually about a year after my sobriety. I had just gotten a new job, and I was on a morning call, and I just, like, I my anxiety was through the roof. I could, like, I could not shake it off. And all I could think of was, like, going out to the liquor store, getting a bottle of vodka, and pouring it into my morning coffee, which had been a routine of mine. It had been a habit.

And so, like, there's, like, here I am, like, on this call and, like, on the at the front door is this bottle of vodka just, like, knocking. You know, like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Like like, let me in. Let me in. Let me in.

And I had to, like it took everything that I could to just, like, try to stay present, stay grounded, and, like like, be with, like, that craving. And it it finally succeeded. The vodka bottle went away, and I was able to, like like, sip, but it was, like, that day that I, like, was like, shit. I think I need something more. I mean, I, like, need some more support.

I need something more, like like, another outlet for me to explore, like, the depths of me. And that's when I remember Tim had been doing the men's embodiment circle. And at that point, I really didn't know much about it. I just knew this is a friend of mine that's doing something in town. I'm interested in it.

And at this point, I've got nothing left to lose. Right? And so, like, I went. I don't even think I signed up. I think I actually was just one of those, like like, show up, like, pay you cash.

Like, here you go. Like

It helps when people register in advance.

We need to know how many seats to pay. Yeah. Thankfully, there's always at least one extra seat.

At least one extra seat. Yeah. Yeah.

And that was a transformative practice that really, like, helped me to tap into a lot of, like, the things that I had been feeling and let loose a lot of, like, just stuck energy that, like like, my years of therapy and other, like, modalities just couldn't touch. And, like, this was that that one thing that was like, oh, like, it is starting to shake some stuff loose. I mean, there was other things, like like, weaving in and out, like, during that time. But it was really it was a transformative practice that really just helped me to, like, start to let go of some shit. So I felt really good.

You've been a regular ever since.

Yeah. Yeah. For over a year now, just, like, almost consistently every week since that moment and, like, really going deep into the the practices. I've had some of the most incredible releases that have allowed me to go into traumatic moments of my life. I didn't know I was gonna go there.

Like, we didn't, like, we didn't start the circle with, like, get ready to go to trauma land. Right? But I went there because I was, like, I was safe enough. I was held in Tim's container. The practises are designed in a way that allow us to go inward, to go deep, to reconnect with ourselves.

And, like, once you we start to feel into that, like, safety and security, like, the body body and the mind are gonna, like, bubble up what needs to come up in those moments. And, like, you're always in control. Right? Like, we're everyone is always in control. You can breathe through it.

You can, you know, exit yourself out of the practice, whatever you need to do. But, like, I was able to meet those edges. There was moments that I, like, I was, like, I know, like, I know what memory is coming to the surface right now, and it really hurts. Like, I remember one practice, we were in a, I don't know if it was a rebirth practice or something, but there was there was a lot of fire involved. It was a very, like, fiery practice, and the visualization was of being consumed by fire.

And I lost my house, when I was 14 to a house fire and had a near death experience where I almost died, and I was left behind in that house. My my brother and my father had had left the house, and, like, I was, like, struggling to get out. And, like, during that practice, like, I saw it coming. I could see and could feel it in my body, like, all the emotions connected to it. And, like, for so much of my life, I had blacked that out.

Like, I literally have, like, giant chunks of my memory erased. You know? Post traumatic stress disorder. Right? Like, there's just, like, a self defense mechanism that said, like, nope.

You're not gonna remember this. Right? And then that practice allowed me to, like, go there and, like, revisit it and relive it in a way that was, like, you know, cathartic, and I could, like, just feel all of that emotion that I had bottled up for so long. Just let it fucking, like like, ride the wave, like, fully, like, just go through me. And, like, it was a lot.

It was a big release. I remember that. I remember that practice. It was like it was a I think it was a physical one as well. So I was, like, sweating.

I was also very covered in tears. So, yeah, that's that's how I got into to men's work. Those are some of the benefits that I've seen from it. And from those experiences, it's just wanted I just wanted to go deeper. Right?

I feel like I've really wanted to, like, find more ways in order to bring this to more men because I've seen the first I've seen it firsthand. I felt it firsthand how transformative and how healing it can be for yourself. And, like, when you when you've done so much work on yourself, you can bring it out to the world and, you know, hopefully inspire others and, you know, continue to to heal together.

Before kind of, you know, inviting the men's work, you had a bit of an entrepreneurial background. Yeah. You know? And I I feel like since you started the podcast, I can see a lot of entrepreneurial skill that's being applied. Can you, can you tell us a little more about, like, how your entrepreneurial skills kinda like how that started and kind of, like, a path and journey how you got to here?

Yeah. I remember, like, as a kid, like, some kids, like, you know, are, like, out playing and they're, like, playing, like, soldiers or, like, you know, some sort of, like, capture the flag or something. Like, my play was, like, like, playing business. Like, I remember, like, I had this, like, little, like, like, like, 4 area, and it was, like, my office. It was just such a, like I just love the idea of, like, being in business.

And so, like, it just I think there was also, like, a trauma response to, like, you know, my dad was always busy at the office. And so, like, you know, there was probably, like, a part of me that was, like, well, if you're gonna be busy, I'm gonna be busy. Right? Like, a little bratty, like, 6 year old, like, walking around with a briefcase. Like, I'm in business.

Very secret of my success.

Do you know that movie?

I don't know.

Oh, yeah. We have to watch that movie. Yeah. It's all about business. Mhmm.

So I remember, like, as a, like, as a young kid being fascinated by, like like, creativity and creating new ideas and concepts and, like, just the the art of business. And so, like, when I started to think about, like, some of the things I wanted to bring to life, I brought to life, like, an entire, like, fashion line. I did a collaboration with my one of my good friends and previous coworkers, Irina, where we launched a brand called Ricky Rinsky. So I got to learn about, like, fashion design and, like, going from prototyping to industrial designing and, like, all these things to, like like, bring something from literal, like like, just an image in our heads to, like, an actual, like, line of garments. So that was really fun.

And I also, like, did, like, like, a t shirt line, and I started, like, playing with the idea of, like, a makeup palette line. Like, all these things are just, like, always, like, trying to, like, come up with new ideas. And, the one business idea that really, really stuck was my my shop here in Provincetown, puppy play, where I make made all sorts of vegan leather accessories for any legged friend. So it was a really fun, like, hybrid store between, like, a pet shop and a kink store. So it really was like, it really blurred the lines and confused a lot of people, but it was a really fun project.

And I ran that for about 2 years before this past year really having to, like, step back from my own mental health, because what I also have found while doing this work, this this personal growth work, spiritual work is that, like, my alcoholism and my addiction really has led me to say yes and more to life. Like, I definitely have the disease of more where I'm like, I can't do one thing. I have to do 20 things until I'm completely burnt out and ragged. And, like, to the point of where, like, I can't do anything anymore. Like, I get to the point where I'm like, I've I've done I've taken on too much, and now all of a sudden I'm in paralysis.

So I can't even actually action on any one thing because I've just taken on too much and I get overwhelmed. And so part of my work over the last year has really been to, like, step back and to do less. Right? Like, I am fortunate enough. I don't have to have 6 jobs.

I chose to have 6 jobs because I needed to do more. Like, I needed to, like, run my own business, plus have a full time corporate job, plus, like, work at a bar, plus do catering gigs, plus whatever it was, I was just, like, more, more, more, more, more, more.

I remember one night, I think, last summer when we had done something, and then you're like, oh, I have to go do a bar shift. And I was like, what? You're gonna go to the bar now for, I think, 5 or 6 hours of bar backing or whatever you're doing?

A bar back, which was actually, like, actually really great for my sobriety. Like, it was crate like like, working in a bar, like, shouldn't have been, but, like, I think it was, like it's like a test to myself where I was like, if I can, like, be back here with like, in the cage with bottles of booze. And I was like, I see you, Jose Cuervo. And I was like, you give me those eyes. To mister Tito, I see you too.

Like, it was, like, it was a really good challenge. I think I really needed to, like, push myself to be there, to be in that environment and be in that experience because, like, I still wanted to, like, go out. Like, sobriety really had me the real doubting, like, my social circle, my social experience, like, how I wanted to, like, go out and be social. And I was like, so much of my life had been in bars. And I was like, I don't know how to, like, be in bars and not drink.

I was like, I know what I'll do. I'm gonna work in a bar. Right? I had worked in bars in in college and never drank on the job. I was like, well, a remote job or, like, a corporate job, like, whatever.

I can just start drinking at 8 AM and, like, it's fine. But, like, behind the bar, like, there's just a different responsibility that I never felt the the urge to drink. Anyway, so that's that's what I did. Can you talk

a little bit about when the idea of a podcast came to you and, like, how you approached him and kind of approached me and and how the ideas are formulated?

Yeah. So after being in Tim's embodiment circle for about a year at that point, like, we we had started to really develop a relationship and a connection around this work, and it inspired me to actually enroll in the embodied masculine, transpersonal facilitation training program, which is the program that I'm currently in that Tim has has graduated through several several times over. Like,

well, I've done level 1 and level 2, but now I'm the lead assistant in

that space. Yeah. So, like, you know, it just really inspired me to, like, wanna keep get going deeper and deeper into this work and figuring out ways, like, how I can be of service. Because, like, the, again, the the healing transformation that I've experienced in the the men's embodiment circle, I was like, wow. This is this is good stuff.

Right? This is good medicine that I think more people can be, like, you know, serviced by. And I was like, okay. Like, let me let me see what this is about. So I enrolled in the program.

I've been loving it, and finding a lot of great value in it. And, like, one time over the summer, I was just like, Tim and I were having breakfast, and I was like, Tim, like, now that I've, like, been in your circle and I've been in other circles and I'm, like, in this program, like, I gotta say, nobody is doing it the way that you're doing it. Nobody has the perspective that you're bringing. Nobody is having this this queer angle that brings in so much beneficial goodness to, like, not just queer men, but to all men, to all people, actually. Like, the perspective that I was receiving, the wisdom that I was receiving, the guidance that I was receiving during the men's embodiment circles and during the training facilitation part.

I was like, this is good shit. Right? I was like, what if we, like, put it out there broader? I mean, what if we actually, like, recorded it and, like, got it got this message out there? And that really was the the inspiration.

So I reached out to our friend, Chad, that has been another entrepreneur in town that has been running, the Promise Sound Recording Studio, and I was like, let's do it. Let's let's put this thing together, and let's get this get this thing launched. And here we are. Here we are.

What was your what was your reaction when you came to the Getty?

I loved it. I think that I always wanted to do a podcast, and specifically a podcast for queer men about this work because I had so frequently been the only well, sometimes the only or sometimes one of 2 queer men in a straight cisgendered space. And even though there was a lot of value in there for me, there were moments when I felt like the queer experience, my personal gay experience wasn't fully understood or needed more explaining or you know? And as I was looking around, I started searching other places, like, is there a a gay or queer option out there? And there are it's sprinkled.

There are some, but not many and not, not they weren't super accessible to me. And so the idea that I might be part of the movement that creates what I was looking for felt really satisfying. And the idea that I could collaborate with someone that I trust so deeply and that has experienced the circle, my circle, and my teacher's circle, so understanding the lineage, it just felt like a perfectly congruent way to to do it. And one of the things I love about it is that we both started, really only wanting to spread the message. You know, we weren't looking for anything other than how can we help our community and the people in our community live their most full authentic lives.

And, yeah, I'll talk about that all day if I can. Right? Like, absolutely. Let's, like, let's never stop talking about it. Our community needs support resources.

And if I can be, even a tiny part of that, I am happy to do it.

How did he approach you? Was it like a call or person?

No. I think we were were were we having breakfast? We were

having breakfast across the street at church. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think it was just sort of like, we should we should do this on a podcast. I'm like, okay. Like, it sounds I'm like, that sounds great.

And then I think we just walked over the street. We knocked on the door and said, Chad, turn the cameras on. Let's go. We're just gonna but that's that's literally how quick it's felt over the last, like, 2 months.

Well, that's in large part because of of you and Chad. Right? Because I think my initial instinct was like, this is a great idea. Let's get the message out there, and then there's that part of me that's like, but I don't know how to do any of that. And then luckily, you were like, well, we'll figure it out.

We'll figure it out.

You and Chad have had conversations, and then you come back. You're like, oh, it's all figured out. I just sit down and talk. Like so I feel very grateful for that.

Well, but pulling out the wisdom from you, right, and getting the message out there is that's the the spirit of this podcast. Right? And so, like, how what has your journey been like to get you to today? To be able to, like, sit here, to sit in circle, and to have this perspective, to have this wisdom that you have. Like, can you tell us a little bit about your story?

Yeah. I, I feel really grateful that my life has had so many different aspects to it, all of which I believe have been building in this direction towards my personal growth and my spiritual life. I started as a professional dancer. So, I remember, in high school, I was cast in the role of Dream Curly in Oklahoma, because I had curly hair and I kinda looked like the guy who was gonna be the lead. And my friend Andrea was, this female dancer who had been studying at the Pittsburgh ballet for her whole life.

So they basically were like, we don't need him to be able to dance very well. He'd just be like a a bar that she can hold on to. Right? But it turned out that I had incredible rhythm, like, sort of natural rhythm and, like, musicality. And so I started picking things up pretty quickly.

And so I I started pursuing dance sort of late in life and was fortunate enough to take that passion, apply for school, and attend New York University dance department, and that moved me to New York City. And I really do feel like dance is my first spiritual teacher because it really was, a mind body exercise that made me look into, who I am, how I am, and how I sort of express that. But so when I started performing and dancing professionally, I was, you know, obviously very interested in keeping myself healthy and doing the things I needed to do. And so I started to seek out yoga, and I found the school Jivamukti Yoga School. And I started doing their their classes and really loving it.

Now I didn't know at the time, but one of the founders of Jivamukti Yoga was also dancer, Sharon g, Sharon Gannon, one of the cofounders along with David Life. And so there was something about this, physical practice that was really resonating for me, and I felt very strong and lean. And so just as a dancer, I'm like, this is great conditioning. But as I was in the practice, you know, part of Jivamukti yoga was there was usually, a focus of the month and, like, a spiritual dharma talk. And I started getting bits and pieces every time I would go about, like, this concept or this concept or this concept, and it started really resonating.

I started to learn that yoga was the first place where I could be fully myself, meaning a gay man, a queer person, and pursue a spiritual path. There was no asterisk next next to my name. There was no because I've been to a lot of, like, accepting places where they're like, well, you'll have to be reincarnated at least once. You'll never make it as the gay person or the queer person. Yoga doesn't have that.

Yoga is, you know, union, oneness, and I was like, oh, I can just engage in this practice equally with everyone else. And then something, like, opened up in me because I was like, I had never experienced that in my life. And so and I I think I've always been prone to, like, being a spiritual person. So I went to the Jivamukti teacher training, which was an intensive, like, month in, Upstate New York, and, again, just fell in love more and more and more. So as I was dancing, I was teaching yoga and deepening that part of me, which is, you know, that yoga is my primary spiritual practice.

So, like, that's really deepened me into my spiritual practice. And so then I was teaching yoga. When I stopped dancing, I was teaching yoga, and it was igniting inside of me this desire to understand more fully, like, a physical and subtle body anatomy. And because when I was a dancer, I had had a lot of massage therapy and physical therapy, I'd also had a lot of acupuncture. And I was like, oh, Chinese medicine has a robust subtle body anatomy system.

I want to deepen to that. So then as I was teaching yoga full time, I went back to school and got my master's degree and became an acupuncturist, which was super congruent. So if we can talk about chi or we can talk about prana, we can talk about naughties or we can talk about meridians, but ultimately we're talking about the same thing. And so I was deepening myself into that. So now I'm taking my yoga understanding, blending it with my Chinese medicine understanding, which I was blending with my dance and acting understanding, and it was just deepening and deepening, and I could start to feel these parts of me influencing other parts of me.

So it was just kind of becoming this blend that felt like my blend. And so I started working as an acupuncturist and getting a lot of value from that when I when I felt like I was able to help a person, help them feel better, help them move more easily, you know, things like that. It always made me feel great. And then and then pandemic came. And all the things that I did, including I was at that time personal training and teaching some fitness classes, all the things that I did and all the things that I loved, they all stopped.

And I realized in that moment, I'm like, oh, everything that I do is face to face. And now I'm in my apartment. There's no there's no Zoom call for acupuncture. I mean, actually, what's funny is, like, my, my colleague was like, well, we should do tele telehealth sessions. And I'm like, does anyone want that?

Like, does anyone want me to tell you, like, acupressure? I don't think so. So so that didn't really happen. And and so I I started thinking about, well, what am I gonna do? I was already a personal trainer.

And so the first thing I did you know, remember when it was gonna be 14 days to flatten the curve? Right? Okay. So it didn't take long for that to become clear that it was gonna be longer than that. And so I said, I'm gonna do a, a continuing education program through NASM, which is where I had my where I have my, personal training certification.

And I decided I'll do the behavior change specialization course. It's all self study because I was, like, coaching, and I felt like coaching had been a part of my private yoga practice and my acupuncture practice in different ways. So I did this course, and it's a great course if you're a personal trainer and you're looking for it. But really it was more of an overview of different aspects of coaching. So when I completed that course, by the time I completed it, you know, 2 weeks later, it was clear pandemic is going for a while, and I'm not gonna be back in my office for some time.

I was like, I should deepen I just got an overview of these coaching. I should deepen my understanding of coaching. So I started looking for coaching programs. And in the looking for coaching programs, I came across one that was for men, men's coaching. And I remember being like, oh, you know, because I had this fear or this mistrust of straight men, in large part because I had had plenty of life experiences that had given me a lot of reason to feel that way.

But I thought, oh, maybe stepping into this is the way that I can start to heal it and transform it. So I had a meeting. I ultimately decided to do this 6 month men's coach training. I was the only queer person in this space, and we would meet pretty regularly. I made 3 3 calls a month of, like, 2 hour calls and and then practice sessions or whatever.

And this is my first intro to men's work, and so it was a combination of yogic practice and, you know, neurology and whatnot. And so I was I was taking all the things that I had learned through yoga and through acupuncture and through dance and now bringing it to this program. And already sort of as you beautifully mentioned earlier, started to see some transformation within myself. Like, oh, I'm less nervous or or trepidatious around straight men. Now I'm more able to speak my mind and my truth.

I'm I started to realize my capacity to step into leadership with these men, and so it was really exciting. And so that was the beginning. There was a moment so really there was an assistant in that space, his name is Alan McGrath, and he was doing an Instagram live conversation about the archetypes, the 4 primary masculine archetypes. And I think it was the magician in particular, and I'm like, I was really into the archetypes that was part of our coaching framework. And so I'm like, I'm gonna watch this.

And he was interviewing who is now probably my closest men's work teacher, Amir Khaleghi, about the, about the no, about the magician archetype. And I was like, oh, this dude. I'm like, there's something about this dude. Like I have to I have to know this dude. And so I went to his online circle and started doing that practice a little bit.

I entered into his 4 month personal growth program, the MWI, the men's work intensive program. It was such a transformation for me personally, and what's really interesting is that you know, I've always been a good boy, always been, like, the hard worker, try to get the good grades and keep out of trouble. And, anyway, we're doing this program, and there ended up being a really explosive conflict in this space. And it just so happened that it was between one one other man and me, which is, like, wild. It's wild that this was the case.

And it was so intense that, like, for the retreat, Amir had warned the leadership team to be like, oh, this group of guys is you know? And, and I almost didn't go on retreat because I was like, I don't know what's about to happen. You know? I felt like this. Again, that at that time, I was one of 2 queer men in the space.

I'm like, this straight guy feels vol volatile. Basically, he was sort of being the man I had feared. I'm like, am I gonna go to this retreat? Am I gonna put myself in in in danger? Or, like, do I have to show up and have someone tell me you 4 days in a row?

I went back and forth and back and forth. I was like, no. I have to go. Well, I'm not gonna give you all the details about it, but ended up having a conversation with him, having an unbelievable transformational experience through this retreat. And when I walked away, I was like, I can't believe what happened.

But then I thought, I wonder if I had the real experience of MWI because I had had this specific intense conflict with this man. And so I was like, well, maybe I should do it again. And just as that was happening, Amir had, advertised his facilitator training program that was gonna include 2 retreats. And I was like, well, I wanna deepen into this work even further. I was already a coach and already a yoga teacher and already an acupuncturist and already a trainer.

Like, I'm I was already doing so much. I'm like, I clearly want to do this. I'm just gonna join this program and do it. And then that has started it. So I did the facilitator training program, which is now the transpersonal facilitation training program level 1.

I then, helped Amir conceptualize and create the level 2, which I then completed, and have been part of his leadership team in every MWI and training program since that moment. And so through this practice, I I've seen the transformation that has happened in my own life, my ability to be more confident, my ability to speak my needs, my ability to ask for what I want, my ability to say no when it's time for me to say no. I still have an enormous amount of work to do, and at times, I'm, like, embarrassingly riddled with fear. But the progress that I've made from where I was even 5 years ago, I'm very, very grateful for that. And so I wanted to start to bring that, and I wanted to start to bring that, you know, wherever I was and specifically for queer men because we were such a minority in the space.

And there were so many times when I thought this work is transforming me, and I know it can transform others if it were available to them. In what ways can I help that happen? So when I created the embodiment circle here in Provincetown, that was my idea. I mean, technically, the the circle in Provincetown here is not a queer circle. It's just a men's circle.

It just happens that almost everyone who comes is a queer person because of where we live. But, it's just an end circle making it available to everyone. And, you know, a lot of a lot of these circles can come at a pretty high price tag. In this in Provincetown, I have been very specific about keeping it the same price as any yoga class that you would get at Outermost Yoga, because I wanted it to be accessible. And so then after 2 years of doing the circle and creating this community and building a group of men who are regular and watching them transform, getting proof from them, from their mouths, from their experience that this work is of benefit and of value and can help you live more healthfully, more happily, more fully, more joyfully, right, then this podcast makes perfect sense because I can't one person can't be everywhere all at once.

If I could, I would run a circle everywhere I could for as many people as I could. But I live at the tip of Cape Cod. Right? So, I can only do so much, and you don't have to be on the tip of Cape Cod to be listening to this podcast right now and to understand that your experience is seen and heard and valued, that you could, if you want, step into a space like this and get the value that you're looking for or needing or wanting. And, and if my experience, which I'm hoping to continue, but if my experience at this point is of value in any way, then, yeah, let's do it.

I know you you're a dancer. Right? I really wanna know the the the story behind you being like, I think I wanna dance and then how did, like, your family react to it? And then at what point were you like, I think I wanna do this as a career and kind of like accepting that in yourself as like a a male, even though you're a gay male, but when you're young, as, you know, a male choosing to go into dance and then going into, like, college with that and then kind of that feeling of straying away from that.

Thank you for that question. I was so lucky. So we started this episode talking about I'm originally from Pittsburgh and how fortunate I am. Pittsburgh is unbelievably supportive of the arts or at least it was when I was, in high school. But I believe it still is, you know, beautiful theaters and a lot a lot of that.

And so when I was working when I started doing the high school musical, my family was very supportive because it was this thing that, like, lots of people did. And the director, Larry Servais, the choreographer, Mary Kunkleman, and then different teachers at these studios were very supportive. They saw a natural raw gift in me, and they they kept saying, you could do this if you wanted. You could do this if you wanted. And I was good at it.

I was getting, this is gonna sound a little ego y. I was getting some validation, which, was nice because, that wasn't free flowing in my Irish Catholic family. Right? But I also really liked it. I was having a really fun time, and I think that I was always an athlete and I was always I was deeply connected to music.

So to to mix athleticism with music, I mean, I can tell you I could think of 7 different occasions right now where in the middle of a performance, whether it was at high school, in college, or on Broadway, or in dance companies, where I was so connected to everything that was going on. It was as if I I entered, like, a full flow state. And it was as as if I was doing it and also observing myself doing it simultaneously. Moments when I'm like, I'm in the middle of the hornpipe dance. I don't even have to think about what I'm doing because it's all kind of just happening.

That's how much I loved it. And so when I started to realize that I loved it and I had people, the Civic Light Opera in Pittsburgh, the Civic Light Opera Academy in Pittsburgh was supportive and gave me scholarship. And, and the more that I got the message that I could do this, the more I was interested, the more my family got nervous about it and started to, try to shift, and, I don't I'm not gonna use the word manipulate, but something in that slice of utilizing their influence to try to change the trajectory of my desire. In large part, I think because, because of misunderstanding of what it means to be a queer person, I think they thought if they could stop me from dancing, they could stop me from being queer or gay. And just as a public service announcement, I know a lot of gay people who cannot dance.

I mean, I think some of them might be in the room right now. And, so so to be clear, being a dancer does not make you gay. But I think I do think that at some point, once I came to grips with who I was, I was like, well, I've already committed the the most terrible sin in my culture right now. Sort of like, you know, this idea of, like, gay people have abandoned their masculine privilege and blah blah blah. I'm like, well, once once I've done that in your eyes, I've got nothing else to lose.

I may as well go after the thing I wanna do. And, it's really funny. So fast forward, I was I had, you know, at this point now, done a few modern dance companies, a few touring shows, a few Broadway shows, and I remember I speaking to a family member. I won't mention which one now because I don't wanna hurt their feelings, not that they'll ever listen to this. But, I I remember I saying like, oh, I think I'm gonna transition now into, like, acupuncture and and yoga and you know?

And they were like, well, you know, but why? We were so proud of you. And they started they started talking to me about how hard it is to be on Broadway and to get, like, Broadway shows, Talking to me as if I didn't know that. And so I remember having this conversation. I was being, like, really frustrated about it because I'm like, you know, I I'm the one who put myself through it.

You know? I'm the one who, like, walked into that vocal audition even though I was terrified because of my speech impediment and everyone calling me gay and still tried to, like, squeak something out of my voice. Like, I'm the one who took the classes and did the things. And so I remember after that conversation, I got off the phone, and I was talking to a friend later, and I was really frustrated. And, I turned to him and I said, you know, it's really frustrating because it's easy to be my biggest fan when I'm on Broadway.

I was like, but where were you when I needed you? You know? Like, when I didn't have any money and I had, like, 3 jobs and I was working really hard and you were trying to manipulate me to move back to Pittsburgh. But, no, go ahead. Tell me tell me how proud you are of me now that I'm on Broadway because that's pretty easy.

Oh, yes. It's fun to look at a playbill and then say, look what my son did. So I don't know. Did that answer your question? Yeah.

And so where where is she now? Kind of like, you know, does she know does your family know that you're doing this podcast? Like I

mean, my family knows that I'm doing this podcast, because I told my sister. I don't even think let listen. Like, I love my mom. I, so that story is about my mom, obviously. I, I don't know if my mom would know, like, where to find a podcast.

So so it it, like, it isn't it isn't a it isn't an insult or a critique of her that she's not gonna listen to this podcast. But, but, yeah, I don't I don't I mean, like, where did you get your podcast, mom? I mean, I don't I think my mom might have a flip phone. I mean, my mom does the thing where she calls me, and, like, I I see, like, half of her face. Mhmm.

And I'll be like, mom, lift your phone. And she's kinda doesn't understand, like Mhmm. Anyway, so so years. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's like I see, like, half of her jaw, and I mean, like, mom, lift the phone, like, look into your screen. And, so so but I mean, I'm at a point in my life now where I'm part of my mission, part of this podcast, part of the circle and the work that I'm doing. I'm trying to live my my fullest, most authentic experience. If there's a part of me, an inherent part of me that you can't live with, that's that's your problem.

Because I'm not gonna I'm not gonna pretend, to be something that I'm not so that you're comfortable. And, also, I'm fucking great to get into it. You know what I mean? Like like, you know, I don't I don't spend a lot of time judging other people for bits and pieces of them. Like, do we fit well enough or not?

Mhmm. Yeah. So, I mean, like, I was nervous even talking about some of my own story. Right? And if this had been a year ago, I probably wouldn't have.

Like, I don't I don't open up easily, but exactly what you just said is that, like, I'm gonna bring more and more of my fullness to everything that I do. And that is gonna be part of my that's gonna be my history. I'm gonna bring my history to the table. I'm gonna bring who I am in this current moment. I'm gonna bring my my goals and my aspiration for who I want to become, and I'm confident in that.

And so there were parts of, like, when I was sharing the story about my parents' divorce and all these things, like, there was a moment in my brain where I was like, oh, like, what if somebody, like, in my family listens to this and they're like, oh, he got it wrong. Like, that's not it's like, no. Like, this is how I'm experiencing it. This is my fullness. This is my authenticity, and I'm not afraid to bring that anymore.

Right? So telling my backstory, telling my my history. Right? That you sharing yours as well. Right?

It's like, this is this is part of the work. It's just being okay with being vulnerable and bringing authenticity to the table with everything that we do.

And I've had the experience of, you know, talking to family members and recalling something that happened. You know, I'll just a quick story where, because I was a good boy, my sister was a bit of a problem child. She got a, you know, squeaky wheel. She got a lot more attention than I did. And so I was at this swim meet, and I was the only, kid on my team that didn't have anybody there to, like, to see him.

Right? And so I won a bronze medal. I got up on the podium. I've always loved the Olympics. I was like, oh, the podium, that's so fun.

I had this medal. And, and later I mentioned to my mom, like, you know, that I had some feelings about that. And she was like, oh, that wasn't a really big deal. And I was like, well, it wasn't a big deal to you, but it was a big deal to me. And I'm and I'm telling you that, And I'm at a place now where we can have differences of opinion.

So you you didn't think it was a big deal. That's fine. And and you showed me that with your actions and your behaviors

In your absence.

But I'm not asking you for your, approval of my experience. I'm telling you what my experience was, which was it was a big deal and that I had a lot of feelings around that. And if you don't like or agree with my experience, that's fine. I mean, it would be different if we were name calling and, you know, and, like, blaming and all this. I'm just telling you I'm just telling you what my experience was.

And I was telling you what my experience is. And I'm telling you what I think my experience is going to be. So for example, this part of my life, the spiritual part of my life, it isn't going anywhere. So anyone listening, it's not going anywhere. So if you don't like this part of me, that's okay.

But it's not going anywhere. So it's gonna it's gonna be like a factor. It's it's so it's like that. So, like, we can have a difference of opinion, but I'm not gonna shy away from what my experience was. And I if I get it wrong, if I misremember something, I'm happy to look at a piece of evidence, but it's probably not gonna change how I felt.

And how I felt was I'm the only one here that doesn't have anyone cheering for them.

Yeah.

So I'm sorry if my mom doesn't think that's a a such a big deal. Right. Because I did. I do.

Like validating feelings and being able to bring the authenticity to your feelings and not adjust your feelings for somebody else, huge work. Right? Like, that took a lot. It takes so it takes so much. Like, there's so many times in my life that, like, I have doubted my own feelings because it made somebody else uncomfortable.

Mhmm. Right? And so all of a sudden, like, now my feelings don't matter. My needs don't matter. Nothing matters because it made somebody else uncomfortable or they've had a disagreement with me.

No more. Right? Like, I'm bringing myself to the table.

Right. And as a queer person, because because I had an alcoholic, father who, left early, There was a time in my life when I needed my mother to be a superhero. And I would I would talk about her. Like, I just needed her to be almost perfect wonder woman in my eyes because she was the only rock that I could that I could, like, hold on to or trust or feel safe with. Right?

So it took a lot of work for me to start to be more honest about who she was in our relationship. Now the the thing is, for me, I feel like even though that meant me recognizing some of her shortcomings, I do actually think that it's allowed me to love her more fully. Because the wonder woman version of her that I had created was was not real. And so not really doing her any service either because it's like like, if I think you're wonder woman, you're probably and you're actually not wonder woman, you're probably gonna fail.

And it's a great lesson for all of us. Like, when you hold others to such high expectations or any expectations, right, like, the chances that they're gonna meet those expectations, very slim. And then you're just setting yourself up in them for for disappointment and failure. And so, like, also part of this work and part of my journey has been, like, reducing and trying to eliminate expectations as much as I can so that I can accept people exactly as they are. Mhmm.

So that if they're having feelings or emotions, like, I can believe them and I can accept them and I can be with them and the same thing for myself. Right? Like, that that same releasing myself of so much expectation. Like, I even think about this podcast. Right?

Like, you you saw firsthand, like, the struggles that I've had, like, being in this room, being on this microphone, being in front of now cameras, like, the struggle that I've had to, like, let go of perfectionist tendencies because of the expectations that I was putting on myself. Mhmm. Right? Nobody else is putting you're not putting these on me. You're not like, Chad's not putting these on.

Like, nobody's putting them on me but myself. Yeah. And, like, being able to liberate myself from that and that work that I do on myself, I'm also working to do on others, freeing them of any expectations that I might be putting on them.

Did we did I mention the, the Oprah, Martha Stewart example on this podcast yet? You

did. I can't remember if it was on the podcast or if it was Well,

we can we can cut this if we need to, but, like, I've always found it interesting. This is before

before sharing circle 2 weeks ago.

Boom. Okay. So, there was this article about, why do people love Oprah and hate Martha Stewart? Now this is before Martha went to jail. Right?

And the basic idea was, people hate Martha Stewart because she's perfect and everything she does is perfect, and perfection is hard to relate to and and almost impossible to maintain. And Oprah was flawed, and she would let you see her flaws and, like, talk to you about, like, her failures and her vulnerability, and that we can super relate to. And that's the idea of, like, for conscious men, striving towards excellence, I think, is really admirable. But we have to allow ourselves, like, I'm I'm trying to be my most excellent, show up my my fullest or my most authentically. But perfectionism is like something else that is, you know, a defense mechanism.

It's a it's a kind of hiding, and it's doomed to fail. Because we people cannot be perfect all the time throughout the entirety of of their lives. And if anyone is able to listening, you know, please call in. But Tell them. How are, like, how are you doing?

Yeah. I I will say, though, like, my my my shift in perspective with the word perfect and, like, expectations and perfect perfectionism is that, like, I've just, like, come to terms with, like, I am perfect in every single moment by being myself. There is nothing wrong with me. There is nothing wrong with me in any moment. I am perfect in that moment.

That is not me saying that I'm striving to some, like like, expectation. Right? I'm just being. The only expectation is to be just like we say in men's work. The only expectation of anyone is to bring your fullness.

Mhmm. Yeah. That's it. That is it. So the more that we can do that, the more that we can, like like, help others to do that, and that's that's the message.

That's at least part of the message that I wanna get out there. And, like, a big part of this episode today was to welcome you all into our experiences, to our journey Mhmm. To see a little bit of, like, where we came from or where we come from and the things that we're working through, you know, sometimes in real time. Like, you see it, like, especially with me. Like, you're seeing a lot of this happening in real time.

So

it'll be interesting actually for you to go back and, like, observe the the episodes over time.

I mean, it already has, like, just, like, going from recording to then editing, beating myself up over it, hating myself up, and then taking a couple days away. I mean, we talked about this in circle the other day. Sometimes you just have to take, like, a couple steps away. You have to take a couple days from, like, seeing something or hearing something, and then all of a sudden you come in with fresh eyes, and you're like, oh, that was actually pretty good. But, like, if you are holding those expectations and you're holding any sort of narrative, you know, on yourself

Mhmm.

Like, I'm not gonna be able to see that. I'm not gonna be able to see how the the quality of something, whether it's good or bad. I'm only seeing that it's bad because I'm holding a narrative in my head so close to my heart, and, like, I just gotta step away and also just continue to work through that. Yeah. Yeah.

Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah.

What are your goals when it comes to, spirituality and kind of embodiment? And, like, where where what journey do you see yourself yourself taking?

Actually, I was at church this morning. I don't love calling it church because it's the universalist Unitarian meeting house. I can't even say the name. The UU. Like, I'm not a good religious person.

Right? Like, I don't know, like, histories of religious practices. I don't know like, I'm just looking at ways in which, like, I can connect to spirituality. Right? So, anyway, so I was at church this morning, the UU meeting house, and we were talking about the sermon today was about, like, how our our faith is a, like, IKEA furniture that we have all these bits and pieces that we're just pulling together.

And, like, sometimes the instructions are super clear. Sometimes they're just, like, like, hieroglyphics with no written instructions. Right? Or you've got the instructions in a language that you don't read or understand. And so, like, part of my spiritual practice now is, like, taking the pieces, trying to assemble my faith, figuring out what pieces serve, what pieces don't, how do I creatively use, like, that weird screw that I'm like, I don't know where that goes, but the structure is kind of standing.

And I had this extra piece. Like, what do I do with this? Like, do I glue it over here? Do I make a craft out of it? What do I do?

Do I put it in that drawer? And, also, like, at the same time, like, collecting more pieces because maybe the piece isn't complete. Maybe the piece of furniture is not, like, complete or maybe, like, I've used it for a couple years and now all of a sudden the the handle's, you know, gone missing. So I'm gonna go through it. I'm gonna try to find and, like, collect pieces and, like, not commit to any one modality.

It really is just coming at spirituality with an open heart and an open mind because for so long of my life, like, I religion and spirituality were synonyms. And I was, like, I was so anti religion. I was so anti everything that could have, like, smelt of, like, religion. Mhmm. And it there's a lot of, like we can go into another episode, but, like, there was a lot of family things, like, as I was growing up that that came to be that really just, like, left a really bad taste in my mouth.

Even though I personally was, like, not, like, going to church again, didn't know who Jesus was until I was 4th in 4th grade. Right? Like, there's a lot of, like, lack of awareness that I had that anyway. So I think, like, now I'm just, like, I'm trying to build that relationship with my spirituality and not from a place of, like, a religion. And looking at it, not just of personal growth, but of personal connection or some connection to something bigger than me.

Right? At the end of the day, that's that's what I'm looking for. Looking to get out of my way to stop making so much about about me to being, like, in that self centered kind of, like, state and just, like, looking at the bigger picture, looking at the bigger universe, the bigger connection to all of us, right, and trying to really, like, find my place in it. So

And what about, I know you're going through, like, you wanna be a facilitator, kind of like, I I guess, out in the open. Where where do you where should we expect to see you be, like, teaching or to like, we should expect you to see you do?

Well, starting tomorrow. Whoo. Yeah. This, I don't know when this episode is gonna come out, but Tuesday, November 18th, 17th. What's today's date?

I have no idea. Yeah. It'll be the 18th.

So it's tomorrow, Monday, November 18th, will be my first time facilitating, here in Provincetown. I've led small groups, and I led a group at retreat, but this will be my first time facilitating, like, in Provincetown and in a group like this.

You're gonna be facilitating the the the sharing circle.

Sharing circle, which is gonna be your first time leading a a circle like that. And then on Tuesday, I will be leading the embodiment circle for the first time. So I'm really excited about that. And I'm just gonna continue. But, like, outside of that, like, I do have a passion for facilitation, but I think, like, my true passion really is, like, like, helping to get this message out there.

Like, yes, I want to facilitate to help people experience the work, but I also want, like, just, like, be a messenger to people to, like, you know, bring more people in to show them that, like, this isn't like like yeah. Sometimes we get a little witchy. Sometimes we get a little, like like, spiritual, but, like, you know, it really is. It's like it's so transformative. It's so powerful, and I just wanna, like, keep helping to, like, spread the message more.

So

Awesome. And then I guess same question for you. So what are your kind of short term and long term goals when it comes to your spiritual journey and, you know, your teaching? Are you gonna go teach further beyond Provincetown, or kind of what are your what are your thoughts?

Yeah. My my my goals with regards to this is to keep going. This is this is clearly a big piece of my purpose and mission, in this lifetime. So, I am gonna be starting my own programs, and facilitating programs with my teacher. I do love, working with Amir and embodied masculine because, I think it's so important for us to always have a teacher and to always be continually learning.

But I wanna I wanna put this in a book, and I wanna do book tours, and I wanna do big workshops. I mean, we should do them together just, like, go travel, meet people. I really wanna meet queer people in all parts of the world, and be a a place of safety for them. So I'm thinking big. I'm thinking really big.

Like, let's do let's do books. Let's do workshops. Let's do,

retreats, seminars.

Yeah. Talks. TED Talks and weekend retreats and, you know, 6 month long programs when we do like like, to me, the sky is the limit. My personal mission is helping people live more happily by helping them live more healthfully. And so I want to do it in every way I can.

So this podcast is going to go on for a long time. Circles are going to go on for a long time. And then I see the trickle, by the way. So my my, my teacher's impossible goal is to bring a 100,000,000 men to the feet of the great mother. Right?

And so he runs these programs. And so then because of his program, I got in, and then I started facilitating, and then I started running circles. Now this last or this, facilitator training program, 2 of the men that are in the program are there because of my circle. Like like, I wanna be a part of the ripple. But with regards to the queer community, I wanna be part of the beginning of that ripple.

And then the more people we touch and the more people we interact with, the the more we have to spread the word so that all the all the queer people who need this work feel like they have

access to it. Absolutely. We wanna bring more people into the circle.

Mhmm. Yeah. Well said.

Like, at the end of the day, like, come on in. Right? Like, we can we can take a step back, and we can create more space. We see this when we're, like, in person. Right?

Like, when we're like, oh, like, we're gonna, like, huddle up around the fire or or or anything. And then, like, somebody comes by. What what do you do? You take a step back and you open it up. You keep expanding.

You keep expanding so you can welcome more people in. And then you you keep the container tight. You keep each other close. Somebody comes in, you step back, you welcome them in. Right?

And that's that's what we're gonna do. Just welcome more people into the circle. Yeah. So with that, I'm feeling very complete. How about yourself?

I feel very complete.

Would you take us out?

I will do. So let's close our eyes for a second. Take a deep inhale and a gentle exhale. And it is with deep appreciation and gratitude that we have had this opportunity to share a part of ourselves, parts that we hope you can relate to, see parts of yourself, and, understand, commiserate with. And with community, brotherhood, love, and compassion, we can begin to change our lives, our community, and our world.

And with these words, our container is open, but not broken. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.